While You Were Sweeping
My boyfriend of nine months leaves a mess in my home, and it infuriates me. Although he's otherwise a great guy, just a glass not taken to the kitchen makes me boil with rage. He doesn't only leave glasses around, but dishes and trash, napkins and soda cans. Jackets and sweatshirts are dropped wherever. He lies on the bed without taking his shoes off...arrrrgh! And he spits toothpaste into the sink without rinsing it out, and never does dishes when we cook or put carryout on plates. I don't understand my anger because I sometimes leave a glass out, too. I do know I shouldn't approach him about this while I'm this upset.
--Pigpen's Girlfriend
Where does your boyfriend think dirty dishes go to die? Do they jump out an open window and smash themselves on the pavement? Leap into a sinkful of soapy water and drown themselves? Or, do they hire a hit man to do the job? Maybe an aging housewife who breaks into your place in the dead of night, slowly and methodically pulls on rubber gloves, then holds the plates under water until the deed is done.
Your boyfriend could be pondering this question nightly, but it seems he's too busy flopping on the bed, swinging his big shoes onto your duvet, and snoring. Meanwhile, you're storming around the house collecting cans, snarling, "What does he think, that I answered an ad for a fully furnished dumpster with cable TV? Or was he worried I'd get lost making my way back from the living room to the kitchen? How sweet of him to leave a trail of dirty napkins to mark my path!"
Next, he'll complain there's no mint on the pillow -- or, worse yet, he'll slip and call you Mom. Who, exactly, does he think picks up all this stuff he drops? Actually, he probably hasn't the slightest idea. In fact, while, for you, one empty Chicken McNuggets box on the couch turns your apartment into a Superfund site, your boyfriend might have to sit on the thing to realize it's there. As I've written before, research shows that, in general, straight men don't have the filth- and clutter-vision women and gay men do. Men generally have better distance vision, and can maintain intense focus on small-scale projects, but they're prone to overlook environmental detail -- increasing the chance that they'll let the chips (and the empty potato chip bags) fall where they may.
Okay, so the glass is not only half-empty, it's been on your foyer table for three whole days. How could your boyfriend not know how upset this makes you? Well, there is the fact that, instead of sweetly telling him what works for you, it seems you've spent the better part of a year festering with hate. Your inability to ask, "Mind doing the dishes tonight?" or tease him about the difference between a bedspread and a sidewalk, suggests there's more to this than liking things tidy. Are you anxious or insecure, and manifesting it in a Gestapo-like need to control your environment? Are you skittish about commitment and seeking an out, like the idea that he doesn't respect you? If you want to be with him, tell him what you need. If he cares about you, he'll make an effort. He might sometimes screw up, but he'll probably put a good spin on it: Dinner with you was so romantic and wonderful, he wanted to leave you a little something to remember it by -- something day-old and encrusted on a plate. Come on, look closely at that petrified moo shu. Can't you see a heart?
Yes, she's going to have to tell him. She must be careful not to let all the resentment come pouring out, but just explain nicely that she doesn't want to be his mom, and every time she picks up after him it chips away a little bit of the romantic feeling she has for him. And he doesn't want that, does he?
Hopefully he's not one of those guys who can't take criticism -- I have first-hand experience with that characteristic. Probably that's why I recommend walking on eggshells rather than just reading him the riot act.
Unless he cleans up his act I don't see much hope for this relationship. The Odd Couple was a very funny movie, but it's not so funny in real life.
Pussnboots at April 22, 2008 9:52 PM
As a woman who leaves out stuff everywhere at friends houses- I appreciate when I'm just told "honey, please put that in the (sink, dishwasher, etc.). I only need to be reminded several times before it sinks in and doesnt turn into a huge fight between us.
I understand some people see it as a sign of respect - putting things away when a guest- but if i'm somewhere I feel really comfortable, like a bf's or friends house, I tend to forget to do it. Because I do the same at my own place.
So the easiest way is the best way- just say it, remind gently several times if needed. If the person cares about you, they will listen.
However, because this woman hasnt said a word to her man all this time, she needs to do ASAP. He cant read her mind and letting the anger fester does no one any good.
sarah at April 22, 2008 10:17 PM
"Remind him gently, several times if needed. If the person cares about you, they will listen." If a person REALLY cares, you wouldn't have to tell them SEVERAL times. He'll only get worse if she doesn't lay it on the line now. I lived with someone exactly like this. As time went on, I learned he was used to having someone pick up after him his whole life, ie; mother, sister and aunt. He just took it for granted that ALL women are SUPPOSE to do that! When I read stuff like this it makes me soooo happy to be living ALONE!
Jan at April 23, 2008 4:11 AM
LW's boy friend needs to knock it off with the Peter Pan Syndrome and man up. She needs to tell him, "ya know, the elves are tired of doing the dishes and picking up after us all the time and we need to pitch in and help. And by we, I mean you, because the elves? They're me." I can't even count how many times I said this to my ex, and every single time, it fell on deaf ears.
When I was single, and visiting married friends with or without kids, or even single friends, I'd pitch in and help - dishes, laundry,changing diapers, even, whatever I saw that needed doing, I'd do, just as a way of saying thanks for having me here. Nine times out of 10, I'd get a hug and a thank you; only once did anyone ever say, oh no, don't do that! And that was because her husband was so anal retentive, that only he could do the dishes the "right way"!
BF, on the other hand, tends to do things without me even asking - laundry, taking out the garbage, mowing the lawn, whatever he sees that needs doing, he does it. No questions. He even gets dinner started if he gets home before I do. I'm a very lucky woman! (But it could also have something to do with his being one of 13 kids in his family!)
Flynne at April 23, 2008 5:32 AM
The guy's a slob. I bet he expects to be mothered by whatever woman is in the vicinity. But I don't buy Amy's genetic determinism. He can learn not to be a slob. The military could train him, for example.
What LW needs is for the bloke to grow up and take responsibility for his environment. Not to be someone who can be nagged into it every time, but who has no independent motivation, but a genuine full-time life partner.
Frankly, it's a deal breaker, because left unfixed, it'll build up resentment without any limit. Tell him that you have something important to say, then explain what you expect of him (take time to think about that in advance), and give him 1 week to sort himself out. And he's got to stay sorted; it's no good if he deliberately does a bad job so you find it easier to do it yourself. Don't take responsibility for his behaviour; but do take responsibility to defend your own quality of life. Sharing doesn't stop at cleaning up dishes: it includes laundry, ironing, washing the floors etc. Of course you can agree to divide up who does what, but agreement should be explicit, and neither of you is the other's skivvy.
Norman at April 23, 2008 6:00 AM
And women: don't, please, refer to some man who shares the housework as "well trained." When women say this to me I reply that not shitting in the corner was the hardest thing to learn.
Norman at April 23, 2008 6:04 AM
She's got to bring it up with him, and he has to grow up a bit, but some people are just slobs.
My wife's sister lived with us as a teenager and had similarly disgusting habits (still does).
She'd get marginally better if persistently nagged, but slipped back again as soon as the pressure/nagging stopped.
Ultimately the LW has to decide if the good parts of his personality will keep overriding her urge to throw the dirty plates at his head.
James at April 23, 2008 6:30 AM
When we first started living together, my husband was a complete slob. It sunk in for me when he brought home a box of festering stuff from his Mom's house. The clothes and blankets, after 3 washes, ended up smelling like normal dirty laundry. He had never had to clean up after himself.
After asking, teasing, and fighting, I finally hit upon a winning tactic. My biggest trigger is dirty dishes in the kitchen. When I explained that the main issue was the feeling of stress after coming home from a long day of work and commuting only to see a stack of crusty dishes in the sink, waiting for me, he started to get it. When I followed up by explaining that his doing the dishes was not only removing that stressor, but also made me feel that he cared enough about me to help out, he really got it. Sure, he's still messier than I am, but it's now on a level I can deal with. And I'm much more able to relax my inner neat-freak, pick my battles and let the occasional mess go.
Allison at April 23, 2008 6:33 AM
I agree with Amy, but in my usual style (winks to all my critics) I wonder if some other accommodation is possible. Maybe he does all the maintenance on the cars, including hers. Maybe he does heavy lifting at her command, most men do that for their women. Maybe he handles all the house maintenance, like fixing the roof. Maybe he gets calls at 3am to fix her blog. Maybe the overall work is shared equally already.
There's two ways to compromise or share work. The parties can agree to share equally each component of the work, or the parties can agree to share the overall work equally by each doing different components.
Women will often mix the two to their advantage. When it's something really important to them, they compromise by sharing each component. When it's something they don't care about, they share the overall work by different components. This means that on things they think are important, they always get help. Things that aren't so important are left to the man. This same pattern of compormise happens on vacations and the like.
MAybe the overall work is already being split equally, but the LW still wants to split components.
Jeff at April 23, 2008 6:59 AM
Jan-
All I was trying to say is that people have different levels of comfort for how messy/clean a place is. At my house I may leave a dish our for a day on the table or a glass without really noticing. Overall the place is very clean. I dont go over to friends places and act like a slob....just every once in a while I forget..:)
So when I said "remind him gently several times and if he cares he will listen" is that for some people they need to be REMINDED that the house either isnt THEIRS (a friends place, a gf's place) or they ARENT alone (wth a gf or wife). If they care about you-they will pick up after themselves and not complain.
Comfort levels are different as most people can attest to-its when the person refuses to do their fair share all the while claiming to care about the relationship and ignore/not care how much a mess can unhinge the other person -you get to see their true view of the you (as their mom/housekeeper).
sarah at April 23, 2008 7:03 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/04/while-you-were.html#comment-1542028">comment from NormanAnd women: don't, please, refer to some man who shares the housework as "well trained." When women say this to me I reply that not shitting in the corner was the hardest thing to learn.
Hilarious, Norman.
And, P.S., I am not "well-trained." I'm messy.
Amy Alkon at April 23, 2008 7:05 AM
Jeff, I can see where you're going with this, and I almost agree, but I think the LW's boyfriend has taken this to a whole new level. It doesn't sound like the LW wants him to handle all the domestic chores -- just not be a slob who creates ten times more work for her. If he's fixing the roof and her blog, and doing heavy lifting, I doubt she is deliberately poking holes in the roof, screwing with her own code or putting barbells in the middle of the floor just for him to pick them up.
Monica at April 23, 2008 7:18 AM
I agree with Jeff (*gasp*) in that each individual job doesn't have to be shared equally and that sometimes just assigning different tasks works out well. However, I think that everyone mixes the two options to their advantage, may not recognize the tasks done by their partner and may over-estimate their own contribution. This is why, unless you specifically set out which tasks are to be done by whom, agree they are equal and appreciate your partner for doing them, you get this problem. The guy doesn't see keeping a neat house as important, so he's willing to let her do it all. When it comes time to paint the fence, he's just as likely to grumble that he does all the work around around here.
moreta at April 23, 2008 7:30 AM
This is so true. Men and women seem to underestimate the amount of work done by the other.
But have whole swathes of academic literature been devoted to analyzing the matriarchal origins of women failing to paint fences and the like? Is there a cottage book industry catering to women's frustration about "lazy" men who take advantage of their wives? Do male professors fret endlessly in their Men's Studies departments about women failing to share the work? Do credible newspapers report ominously unbalanced household chore ratios based on intensity of physical effort?
Do guys grumble? Sure. Nobody pays any attention to them. Probably, no one should except to say, "Hey bub, your wife just brought you iced tea and ironed your dress shirts while you painted that fence. What's your problem, sunshine?" Shouldn't we be saying that to women sometimes too?
That said, you're still 100% right, and the LW probably has a legitimate complaint. I'm just asking for a little skepticism, and for some lively discussion on the larger issue of sharing work.
Jeff at April 23, 2008 7:52 AM
I think the best solution is to not allow him in her house anymore, and when they do get together, go to his house. It's probably a pigsty, but at least she won't be freaking out about it being her responsibility to clean up the mess. She can indulge her inner slob while visiting, and as the guest, can expect to be waited on by her doting boyfriend.
Seriously, if it makes her hate the guy, then she has to stop letting him visit!
Chrissy at April 23, 2008 8:49 AM
Lively, eh? Men's studies? You want men's studies? It's called history Mr. Man! We all know that our whole history was and still is written by the patriarchy, designed to keep the strong women of the world down! Oh wait, you meant on sharing work. Sorry.
Interestingly, I went to Amazon to see if there was anything listed under "Men's Studies" and there are actually a few books. I think I'll pick one up on my next round of buying. That and "Economic Facts & Fallacies" so I can use that fallacy word with authority in the future.
moreta at April 23, 2008 10:59 AM
Having read a few synopsis, I'm not sure I could pick one that doesn't simply introduce a feminist agenda into defining masculinity...very disappointing. I'd be interested in what books, if any gentlemen like Jeff or Jay R might recommend to explain a male perspective on how THEY are beaten down as a gender. The books must be out there, but I'm just not looking for them correctly.
moreta at April 23, 2008 11:15 AM
Moreta -there is a wikipedia article under the title "Masculism" that talks about some of the issues faced by men.
I wrote a paper about discrimination against males. After researching I decided that politically, men are discriminated against with the draft. I don't think anyone should be forced to go to war, and especially not based on something like one's gender. In the media I think the discrimination can be seen in that violence against men is often shown as humorous, especially kicks in the genitalia.
Lily at April 23, 2008 12:14 PM
"In the media I think the discrimination can be seen in that violence against men is often shown as humorous, especially kicks in the genitalia."
Goot point, (the first) Lily. I think that's changing gradually, though. It's been ages since I've seen a comic strip gag based on a wife beating up her husband, and that used to be fairly common. (Look up the relationship between Mr. and Mrs. Dithers in the older Blondie strips, for example.)
The Other Lily at April 23, 2008 12:33 PM
I meant "Good point", of course. I usually proofread, really I do.
The Other Lily at April 23, 2008 12:33 PM
Thanks Lily -- I'll read through that after I catch up on my Glenn Sacks (who I usually read on a monthly basis -- why doesn't he have a book list???). I've been scouring Amazon and haven't been able to find anything current that isn't about the "new" man. The books "Who Stole Feminism" and "The War Against Boys" by Sommers look on track, but much of the criticism says it lacks any scientific support which I'd like to know is there before I spend my $. Maybe these are the most current, best books out there, but I'd love to know if there is something else that the "disenchanted" men of our society are rallying around. Come on guys, I'm not being sarcastic...I'm looking for a book that seriously studies the issue.
moreta at April 23, 2008 12:40 PM
It's still a man's world, no matter how much these guys whine.
Sure, there are isolated areas (divorce, for one) where they are treated unfairly, but I'm sure there are many more areas where the women are.
And there is the residual benefit, left over from the good old days, to being born male, just as there is one to being born white. It's not one that's built into the law, it's just a general subconscious assumption of the superiority of the male gender, hence the surprise when a female or a member of a minority excels in a profession.
Yes, there have been inroads, and yes, things are changing, but in my opinion the old boy network still is running things.
So I don't quite get what there is to be disenchanted about, unless it's the loss of total dominance -- and if it's that, then they get no sympathy from me.
Pussnboots at April 23, 2008 1:15 PM
Personally, I think the real issue here isn't the guy's lack of cleanliness or the division of household chores, but this chick's anger about it. Quote: "I don't understand my anger because I sometimes leave a glass out, too." I think Amy's last paragraph really nailed the core issue, which is that LW has been sitting there, working herself into a lather over a single glass left on the countertop. I think LW is having some control issues (whether those relate to commitment or having a place of her own or simply being a person that likes to be in control of her environment completely), and that is what's creating the real conflict.
I think the anger issue is what is really upsetting LW, too. Not so much that he can't wash a dirty plate, but that it is sending her into a coniption fit and that she doesn't seem to be able to control that reaction.
CornerDemon at April 23, 2008 1:44 PM
I'm surprised that nobody here has picked up on the second-to-last sentence of the letter: "I don't understand my anger because I sometimes leave a glass out, too." To me, this puts it in a completely different territory: "It's ok when *I* do it, but it's not OK for him to do it!" All the neat freaks I've ever known were harder on themselves about being neat than they were on anyone else. This one doesn't fit the pattern. There is something much more than just incompatible standards of housekeeping going on here.
Such as? I'm not totally sure. Maybe the relationship has gone farther and faster than the LW wanted, and now she's feeling invaded. (Are the LW and BF living together? That isn't clear to me.) OK, yeah, maybe he is a slob, but I'm getting the feeling that even if he was the male incarnation of Hazel, that still wouldn't satisfy the LW. Is there some kind of passive-aggressive contest going on between the two of them? Amy, you got any further insights on this?
Cousin Dave at April 23, 2008 1:46 PM
Well, as I was writing, CornerDemon beat me to it... Must learn to write faster!
Cousin Dave at April 23, 2008 1:47 PM
I would get mad at a single glass if the guy never tidied up. If it was an equal sharing then I'd be happy to pick up the odd glass. The LW has become sensitised, and it doesn't take much to give her coniptions. [Thanks, CornerDemon, for introducing that lovely word, which isn't listed in Chambers or Wikipedia!] The LW's relationship can't take much more of this.
Norman at April 23, 2008 2:32 PM
Discrimination against males ... feminism, for me, is about people being treated as individuals, and not being constrained by generalities about their sex. So, women are not as strong as men on the whole, but there should be nothing against any particular strong woman being a lumberjack or whatever. (Interestingly, it has been pointed out that treating all females the same, and not as individuals, is a lack of discrimination.)
The same applies to men. Until I can feel safe to walk down the street, or go to work, in a pretty dress, I'm being discriminated against for being a man. It's probably safe to do something like that nowadays, but I'd still feel nervous about it. The fact that it would be mostly men who would do the discriminating is not relevant. Fortunately it's not something I actually want to do - but it's a useful thought experiment.
Men and women are both discriminated against. So are lots of other groups. I've no idea how to measure how much discrimination each gets, to decide who has the worse deal.
Norman at April 23, 2008 2:47 PM
Some practical advice for the LW: when the game/movie/show is over, head toward the kitchen and say "Hey Sweetie, would you bring all the dirty dishes into the kitchen so I can start the dishwasher?" and when he does, say "Thanks!" Then hand him the appropriate sized bag and say "Oh, could you also pick up all the chip bags/bottles/cans/etc. as well?" Thanks so much Honey." If you do this every time he comes over eventually he may start doing it himself, unprompted. Yes, it does smack of "house training" but so what? No one has to nag or feel nagged, and the place gets cleaned up, which WAS the whole point, right LW? Yes, it would be nice if he'd figure it out on his own, but he's not gonna. You can stew, you can nag, or you can be pragmatic about it and everyone can be happy.
Jen at April 23, 2008 2:58 PM
"The LW has become sensitised, and it doesn't take much to give her coniptions. [Thanks, CornerDemon, for introducing that lovely word, which isn't listed in Chambers or Wikipedia!] The LW's relationship can't take much more of this." -- Norman
It is a great word, but the reason you couldn't find it is that it's actually spelled "conniption". ;-)
The Other Lily at April 23, 2008 3:11 PM
I'm not saying that painting the fence, et al, is an easy job, but really, how often are those jobs performed? Yearly at most? Even mowing the lawn is only once a week. And if they live in an apartment, which most singles I know do, there's no such thing as yard work or maintenance. Dishes have to be washed daily. Ditto laundry. Vacuum, sweep, bathroom, dust, all that should be done at a minimum of once a week, and floors the rule is once for each person living in the home.
The best way to divvy up duties is by natural affinity. My husband is a lousy cook and I hate to wash dishes. So, I cook, he cleans the kitchen(though I do clean up after myself as I cook). I do the laundry and the floors, he does the yard and what I call big picture cleaning - he notices clutter, not dust. So, he does what he notices, I do what he misses. After 15 years, we've pretty much evened it out without ever having to sit down and discuss who should do what. And I've never had to nag him to do it. And now that our kids are older, you can bet your boots they're doing their share.
One mistake I see people make over and over is expecting someone to clean the way they would. Who cares? If it gets clean, then be happy about it. And this one I don't even begin to see as gender-specific. I am a slob who has to force herself to clean. I'd let it all just sit and fester if I didn't have some pride. And I know plenty of women like me - we so don't care to have the Suzy Homemaker house. I know a lot more men who are very particular housekeepers. I don't know what causes different people to be slobs or neatnicks, but I highly doubt X and Y chromosomes come into play. Especially not tens of thousands of years since we've left the caves.
AJ at April 23, 2008 4:28 PM
There's a whole lot of difference between one glass and all the messes described by the LW, so I don't agree that there's a deeper reason for her anger than the obvious one -- I'd be fuming too.
But Jen had a great idea -- enlist his help repeatedly and maybe he'll get the idea.
Pussnboots at April 23, 2008 4:40 PM
>>Yes, there have been inroads, and yes, things are changing, but in my opinion the old boy network still is running things.
One problem uninformed women have is that they do not understand the good old boy network is a very small number of men. No more than a few thousand.
Most men, tens of millions of men, don't run a single thing. And, to say that what happens to a few thousand rich men therefore by proxy happens to all men is just about as sexist as anything can be.
I have been watching feminism and the American Women for over forty years. And, I conclude it simply is not possible to discuss gender issues with them.
I have debated reasonably intelligent women on these issues, and when they realize what I am saying is correct, they never say, "Oops! I admit I did not really know what men are experiencing."
No. When they realize they have lost the debate, they say, "Yes, but..." which means I know you are right but I want my own way.
Several years ago, a woman's mag surveyed its readers, asking what were the biggest problems men had. Almost none could list even one, and seemed amazed the surveyors even thought men had any problems. A common response was that men didn't have problems; they only cause problems.
All this with as many men having prostate cancer as women having breast cancer, but very little funding for men.
Our jails filling with men.
Men falling off the education ladder.
Millions of men who have illegally been refused the right to see their own kids after divorce.
Large numbers of men ordered to pay child support amounts greater then their income.
Large numbers of men with substance abuse problems.
Tens of thousands of men each year facing false sex abuse charges by a wife bent on great financial gain, some men even driven to suicide because of their anguish at being accused of raping their own daughter, but no penalty at all to the women who make these accusations.
No shelters for men who are physically attacked by their wives, and don't bother to tell me it never happens.
When a woman becomes violent and a man calls the cops, he will be arrested in most cities, even if he is covered with blood.
Yeah, things are really equal, all right. Dream on.
Irlandes at April 23, 2008 5:30 PM
The LW needs to squeeze into a French maid's uniform and do the cleaning in front of hime. Start conditioning him to the notion that housework = sex.
It's shocking how simple the solution can be.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at April 23, 2008 5:46 PM
I suspect also that the LW is maybe a little like me - a slightly anal-retentive, home-is-my-sanctuary type with control issues. Maybe she's reacting more to the fact that the boyfriend is invading her space and less to the actual untidiness? I think Cousin Dave and CornerDemon called it right - there's more going on here.
Jeff: "Maybe the overall work is shared equally already." Fair point. It is possible that the boyfriend was brought up in a family where the women clean house and the guys do yard work and fix the car. And maybe he's just not realizing that the LW has a whole different view on divvying up the chores. I'd really like the LW to respond to this, if at all possible, just to clarify the situation.
Norman: "Men and women are both discriminated against. So are lots of other groups. I've no idea how to measure how much discrimination each gets, to decide who has the worse deal." Exactly right!
Irlandes: "All this with as many men having prostate cancer as women having breast cancer, but very little funding for men." Most new drugs being tested on only men.
"Our jails filling with men." Our cemeteries filling with women.
"Men falling off the education ladder." Women being barred from education for religious and cultural reasons.
"Millions of men who have illegally been refused the right to see their own kids after divorce." Millions of women and children who have been knocked around by husbands they then had to fight to divorce.
"Large numbers of men ordered to pay child support amounts greater then their income." Large numbers of women who end up raising children with little or no support.
"Large numbers of men with substance abuse problems." Large numbers of women with substance-abuse problems.
"Tens of thousands of men each year facing false sex abuse charges by a wife bent on great financial gain, some men even driven to suicide because of their anguish at being accused of raping their own daughter, but no penalty at all to the women who make these accusations." Tens of thousands of women each year sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend, some women even driven to suicide because of their anguish at being raped, or their own daughter being raped, but no penalty at all to the men who rape and abuse.
"No shelters for men who are physically attacked by their wives, and don't bother to tell me it never happens." Used to be you could legally beat your wife with a stick as long as it was no bigger than your thumb. No question men are assaulted by women. And there are definitely fewer shelters for abused men. Are you trying to do anything about that that, or are you just happier whining?
"When a woman becomes violent and a man calls the cops, he will be arrested in most cities, even if he is covered with blood." Sometimes, but not always, and less so than a few years ago.
"Yeah, things are really equal, all right. Dream on." The discrimination pendulum swings back and forth constantly. Big surprise - life ain't fair, to either sex, and the level of unfairness varies all the time. Things will never be "equal".
The sort of score-keeping bullshit generalizing you're indulging in here is pointless and does nothing to help either men or women. Grow up.
loopychick at April 23, 2008 7:25 PM
And THAT is a conniption : )
loopychick at April 23, 2008 7:26 PM
Loopy - you know that the criminal penalties for women are far less than those for men.
Mary Winkler shot her husband in cold blood, lied about being abused, and fled with her children. She served a total of seven months in custody.
Scott Peterson murdered his pregnant wife and dumped the body in a lake. Scott is presently awaiting execution on death row in California.
There are no women being barred from getting an education in this country for religious or cultural reasons that carry any force of law. And if they are in such a situation, walking away is an option (unlike Saudi Arabia, where walking away carries a death sentence).
Every day is "breast cancer awareness month". There is never "prostate cancer awareness month".
And you and I both know that in the states with must-arrest laws it is almost always the man that leaves in handcuffs. I know that's how it goes in Connecticut.
Finally, how many women are presently being forced to pay child support to men for children they did not bear? I'd bet the number is so close to zero as to be irrelevant.
Life keeps score. You may not like it. But you have to live with it. When women decided to be vindictive bitches in the 60's, they had to expect that it would come back to bite them on the ass. Not even Henry VIII could get away with it forever.
brian at April 23, 2008 7:48 PM
I understand what the LW is going through, and I can tell her that her anger at the situation isn't really hypocritical. I leave out a glass every now and again, myself, but it's every now and again, not the frequent basis that my husband (and the LW's boyfriend) do it. That "one glass" is just the one thing that finally tips the scale over from 'annoyed' to 'angry'-- It's the last thing in the huge line of glasses, dishes, junk, and clutter.
Two things that help me: 1) When it's time to clean up for the night, I ask my husband to help me. He cares, so he'll usually do it without hesitation. If the LW's boyfriend cares, he probably wouldn't hesitate to help, either. 2) It sounds corny, but count your blessings. My husband goes to school full time and works part time. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't want to pick up after myself sometimes, either. So consider what he does, even if it's not the daily stuff. Take a deep breath, count all the things that are fantastic about him, and ask yourself if it'll be a deal breaker in the end. If not-- Don't sweat the small stuff!
Jean Moczy at April 23, 2008 8:09 PM
Brian: My point is that we could go on like this all day, each of us trumping the other. It makes no difference and it solves nothing.
Breast cancer used to be something that was never talked about. Now there's a huge awareness because women made that happen. We should be having prostate awareness month, no question. Make it happen!
Yes, more men pay child support, and more go to jail. I can't speak to what happens in Connecticut but from the perspective of 25-plus years of policing I can comment on the domestic assault laws in Canada. The assumption that men are always the abuser is changing, and its happening because men made it change.
As for education I wasn't aware we were restricting our comments to this continent but again from experience there are cultures and religious communities in my country where women are actively pressured to leave school early and barred from further education. Would it stand up to the rule of law? No. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
We could go on and on throwing out examples of how men and women are badly treated by ... well, men and women. Its an argument nobody can win. And throwing out petty generalizations like, "When women decided to be vindictive bitches in the '60's ... " just undermines everything you wrote previously. I mean, seriously, all of us? Was there a meeting I missed?
loopychick at April 23, 2008 8:16 PM
Gog: Start conditioning him to the notion that housework = sex.
This would work. My wife used reward-based training on animals with great success. Whether it is a moral thing to do to another person is questionable. What if the subject finds out he's been used?
There goes the dinner bell! Must dash.
Norman at April 24, 2008 1:45 AM
Irlandes: A lot of what you mention here is men suffering for their own crap decisions or lack of motivation. You want more prostate-cancer awareness? Form a group and do something about it. I'm supposed to cry tears for men who decide to drop out of school to take up smoking crack and robbing gas stations? Well, I have only so much compassion on any given day, and I'm tapped out before I can get that far.
I agree that men often get shafted in divorces, but it's not a fun ride for women, either, and, as others have pointed out, this tit-for-tat game only gets us more resentment.
Monica at April 24, 2008 7:26 AM
Gals, simple fix. Guys are not good at discussing your feelings about dirty dishes and strewn clothes. WE DON'T CARE THAT WAY ABOUT ETIHER THOSE THINGS OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEM.
That does not mean we do not care about you, but those items are pretty trivial in our universe. Sorry. Just the way we are wired/raised/shoosing to be. If you want a man in your life, you take him with that flaw, most likely. (You have your flaws we accept, trust me.)
In light of that, move to the concrete display rather than verbal discussion. Nicely tell him ONCE that you expect him to put his sh-t away.
After that, dump all the sh-t he should be cleaning up on his side of the bed. Seriously. Pile it up. Keep doing it. If he asks, smile sweetly and say, "I am just helping you put your stuff away by collecting it for you." He cannot go to sleep in the bed without cleaning it.
I am talking dirty dishes, clothes, papers, everything. (A plastic sheet might be good for those with seriously problematic spouses.)
If he just sweeps it off onto the floor and goes to sleep. Dump him, right then. Seriously. Start packing. He is an @ss and you don't need that.
If he clues in and starts putting his stuff away, you have made your first step towards changing his behavior. Not changing him, mind you, but his behavior. He still does not give a sh-t about the mess, but understand that relying on you as a maid is not an option.
You may still break up if he resents you for not cleaning up after him, but that is just romantic life. Buy a helmet.
Spartee at April 24, 2008 7:30 AM
Spartee: WE DON'T CARE THAT WAY ABOUT ETIHER THOSE THINGS OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THEM. Don't presume to speak for me.
Re piling stuff up: She should pile up his stuff on her bed? She should start packing if he doesn't clean up? BF is making a mess while visiting LW's home. I think you must have missed that detail in reading the OP!
Re dumping him: Agreed, it could come to that.
Norman at April 24, 2008 7:55 AM
My three year old son tends to think it is okay to drop things anywhere and leave them there. I am constantly on him to pick up things and put them away. Why am I constantly on him? I do not want him to become like the boyfriend of the LW. Slowly he is getting to the point where he cleans up after himself (although he still leaves it longer than I would like). He is even starting to be picky about having dirty hands and is always cleaning them.
My brothers were not like that growing up. Even today, their girlfriends comment on how well they clean. Seriously, they are like professionals. We grew up in a big family and everybody had to do their share to keep things functioning properly. I want my baby to be like my brothers. The first year of his life was spent in a very dirty environment with his biological parents.
What am I saying? Maybe the BF of LW was never taught to clean up after himself. Sometimes it is hard to un-teach things like not having to clean up after yourself. As we get older it is harder to change what we learned growing up.
Marie E at April 24, 2008 8:50 AM
Loopy - I was unaware of your national location. American women are far different than their Canadian compatriots.
The so-called sexual revolution and the second American feminist movement destroyed a large chunk of a generation of women, and that chunk went to work on destroying the next generation.
As a result, we have women cheering when Lorena Bobbit cuts off her man's junk. We have the leader of NOW giving speeches advocating violence against men and when confronted about it claims she was "joking". We have laws passed that make it legally impossible for a man to be a victim of sexual harassment or relationship violence (CT law was explicit on this matter until a few years ago).
So, when I see a woman complaining that her boyfriend is messy, I assume that she's either a man-controlling harpy or a weak-willed patsy. Either way, I don't care about her problems - they could be solved with one word: "Goodbye".
brian at April 24, 2008 9:15 AM
I tried the technique suggested by Spartee with my ex-husband. I am very neat, was raised in a clean house by a strict mother. My ex was raised in a pigsty by a hippie chick on welfare. I stopped cleaning completely, and suffered as I waited - and waited - and waited for him to notice that it was messy and start doing something about it. He never noticed.
I think that was one of the many things that ruined the relationship, so obviously the marriage ended pretty soon after it started.
I think there is no hope of changing the LWs boyfriend, so she should just accept him the way he is, but not allow him in her house anymore, because it obviously makes her crazy. If she wants to keep him as her boyfriend, she could be very honest and say, 'Honey, you're too messy and it bugs the crap out of me. Let's go to your house and have hot sex' (thus incorporating Gog's idea-which is very good!)
They obviously should never live together or get married!
Chrissy at April 24, 2008 9:35 AM
Moreta:
Spreading Misandry, Nathanson & Young
Legalizing Misandry, Nathanson & Young
I've read the first, and am planning to read the second. It wss constructed as a chapter & verse polemic, very citation-heavy. As such it has not been refuted, but simply ignored.
--
phunctor
phunctor at April 24, 2008 9:58 AM
Conflict distorts the mind. Any conflict between two people prevents their understanding of each other. Conflict prevents perception.
The understanding of what is, is the only important thing, not the formulating of what should be. This division between what is and what should be is the origin of conflict. The interval between idea and action also breeds conflict.
The fact and the image are two different things: the pursuit of the image leads to every form of conflict, illusion and hypocrisy whereas the understanding of what is, which is the only thing we really have, leads to quite a different state of mind...
kbling at April 24, 2008 1:47 PM
One of the most curious things in the structure of our psyche is that we all want to be told, because we are the result of the propaganda of ten thousand years. We want to have our thinking confirmed and corroborated by another, whereas to ask a question is to ask it of yourself. What I say has very little value. You will forget it, or you will remember and repeat certain phrases, or you will compare what you have read here with some other book – but you will not face your own life. And that is all that matters – your life, yourself, your pettiness, your shallowness, your brutality, your violence, your greed, your ambition, your daily agony and endless sorrow – that is what you have to understand and nobody on earth or in heaven is going to save you from it but yourself.
kbling at April 24, 2008 2:03 PM
WARNING: THIS WILL PROBABLY TURN INTO A RANT.
Why does every column on this blog devolve into a men-vs-women controversy? Because a very few "disenchanted" men make it so, that's why. They see every issue through the prism of discrimination against males.
As has been suggested above, if things are all that bad, why aren't you out there doing something about it instead of bothering us with your tiresome blatherings?
Not so long ago women had it far worse than anything you are going through. Against all odds, a few intrepid pioneers managed to change all that. In two or three areas there has been overcompensation, I'll grant you.
So maybe you guys need to grow a pair and try to make these areas more fair to both sexes. If you don't know how, do some research and see how the women did it -- maybe you could learn something.
Pussnboots at April 24, 2008 2:07 PM
Begin to understand the necessity of living with yourself as you are, not as you think you should be or as you have been. See if you can look at yourself without any tremor, any false modesty, any fear, any justification or condemnation – just live with yourself as you actually are.
Rinse and repeat
kbling at April 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Pussnboots: "Why does every column on this blog devolve into a men-vs-women controversy?" I had kinda noticed that myself, and I don't know why it happens. I guess its easy for people to view life, and the opposite sex, through the lens of their own experience. After a few crappy relationships with men its easy for me to say things like, "all men are morons", while conveniently forgetting all the great guys I've known. In my more rational moments I know very well that's not true. And thank god for that or I'd never have sex again! Same thing for men, I suspect, and it sounds like Brian's experiences with women in the 60s, or in the aftermath, were unpleasant.
Brian: I think also that the movers and shakers of the world, the ones who fight to right things that they perceive as wrong, can be noisy and strident and rude and unpleasant. The 60s were (as far as I can remember from a child's perspective) times of change for all kinds of people, and change can be big-time scary. Did some women say crappy things about men? No question - but you can't automatically assume that all women felt the same way - because you haven't heard from all women. I personally feel that our current Prime Minister is a giant cosmic sexist right-wing twerp, but I can't automatically assume that all men fit that category.
As for Canadian women and American being different - maybe in some ways, and maybe we all have more in common than you'd think. Maybe we're just quieter and more subversive up here? Or maybe its just too cold to be out with torches and pitchforks, I dunno. As for Lorena B - what she did was appalling. Most of the women I know agree with me on that. The problem, imho, is that you don't always hear from the moderates, but you often hear from, and remember, the ones yelling, "Good for her!" or "Keep the penis, throw HIM out the car window!" It doesn't mean we all think that way and we're not meeting in a darkened basement every second Tuesday plotting the downfall of the male gender. Mostly because ... well, why would we? And of course there's that whole sex thing : )
Lots of good ideas and points of view here which is why I keep reading and posting. But I gotta go have a glass of wine and maybe think calming thoughts as per kbling, and maybe look up "misandry" in the dictionary. Peace!
loopychick at April 24, 2008 5:54 PM
The French maid outfit wouldn't work, because SHE would still be cleaning, not him!
Nicole at April 24, 2008 5:58 PM
Loopychick: Thanks for your many good posts on this thread -- I've been tempted more than once to throw an "attagirl" at you.
And I'm pretty sure "misandry" is the male equivalent of "misogyny".
Cheers!
Pussnboots at April 24, 2008 9:13 PM
Norman: Loved your dinner bell story -- LOL, as the kids say.
Pussnboots at April 24, 2008 9:27 PM
I have a somewhat different take on this then Amy did. Didn't anyone else catch this line: "... just a glass not taken to the kitchen makes me boil with rage."
Is it a normal adult reaction to "boil with rage" because someone doesn't take a glass to the kitchen? From not very pleasant personal experience, I have to wonder if the woman has more than a little OCD? Certainly, her fella might not be as low on the slob meter as say the butler for the Queen of England, but it would be interesting to see if there's any other human being that she'd be entirely comfortable co-habiting with.
Robert Werner at April 25, 2008 12:36 AM
Robert: Boiling with rage is an over-reaction, but the fact that she occasionally leaves her own glass out shows she's not OCD. She's just become sensitised to the BF's slovenliness. That is, she's allergic to slobs. Who wouldn't object to someone messing up her home every time he calls?
Nicole: if the French Maid outfit signalled that once the place was cleared up the fun could begin, he would quickly learn to clear it up à grand vitesse!
Norman at April 25, 2008 2:10 AM
Or if she were to remove one item of her uniform for every item HE cleaned or put away --- Ooh la la!
Pussnboots at April 25, 2008 7:40 AM
Thanks a bunch phunctor! Book order goes in today as I'm almost done my last set of purchases. We're camping in the snow this weekend, so I imagine I'll spend a lot of time sitting by the fire reading and knocking back wobbly pops!
moreta at April 25, 2008 7:48 AM
This French Maid stuff is getting me all hot and bothered.
Norman at April 25, 2008 8:12 AM
"As has been suggested above, if things are all that bad, why aren't you out there doing something about it instead of bothering us with your tiresome blatherings?" We are but not by screaming that women are out to screw us. The rest of us trying to fix the problems are looking at the ranters and going. "Shut up or you'll convince the moderates that the radicals are correct."
Before I get accused of being a feminist shill or some such other crap. I have on more than one occasion gotten the shaft end of the deal from certain women. I did become bitter and distrustful but after a certain point my right wrist was getting tired and I lacked the attention span to keep it up. Most women are not out to bleed men and the more successful ones are scared that we are going to bleed them. To put is short a crazy bitch is a crazy bitch but they are not representative of women as a whole.
If most women were blood sucking crazy bitch and most men were soft natured puppies, there would be no battered womens shelters, gay men would never get the crap kicked out of them by their partner, infanticide would be much higher, and French maids would have chest hair an a deep voice. Most major shifts in policy did not starts with screaming and yelling but responses to specific injustices. Some snowballed badly and now that pendulum may have swung in womens favor.
The number of women killed in DD are still higher than the number of men. The number of women financially skinning men after a divorce is still much higher than the reverse. Fix specific injustices and stop flag waving.
You want to fix the number of men getting ass ended in divorce court, go get your law degree and make it happen. You want the number of women killed in DD to go down get martial arts training and a teaching or psych degree and start teaching young girls self respect and self defense without hatred.
vlad at April 25, 2008 8:27 AM
"Or if she were to remove one item of her uniform for every item HE cleaned or put away --- Ooh la la!" Personally I'd make more of a mess and spend most of the night cleaning it, very very slowly.
vlad at April 25, 2008 8:29 AM
Thank you Vlad, Norman, and Cousin Dave for expressing your views on gender issues without foaming at the mouth.
As for the moderates being swayed either way by extremist rantings, it ain't gonna happen -- that's why they're moderates.
Pussnboots at April 25, 2008 10:28 AM
Vlad: " ... but after a certain point my right wrist was getting tired and I lacked the attention span to keep it up."
Thanks for that visual - I just spit up herbal tea all over my keyboard ; D
loopychick at April 25, 2008 9:44 PM
Now things are really getting interesting. This website has something for everyone -- right here, folks!
Pussnboots at April 25, 2008 10:16 PM
"Most women are not out to bleed men and the more successful ones are scared that we are going to bleed them."
Very observant, vlad. I've been the host to a few parasitic men, who weren't really gold-diggers because I'm not Donald Trump. After my naiivity wore off, I was very careful about which men I allowed in my life. The self-sufficient employed men were the only ones I dated after that.
All my women friends have had at least one parasite in their past, so it's a very common occurance (at least among women who are self-sufficient and employed).
I've also thought that women should be taught martial arts in high school, just to foster that kind of confidence.
Chrissy at April 26, 2008 7:19 AM
Yes, Chrissy, I can attest to that. I've had more than my share of leeches -- it took me a while to wake up, because they were artists and musicians and somehow that blinded me to the parasitic nature of the relationships.
Eventually, though, I decided that if I wanted to get married (and I did), I was going to have to insist that my guy be self-sufficient. So I did, and I finally found a husband who suited me -- quirky, but working.
AT NO TIME did I form a negative opinion of men in general -- that would be stupid. (Hint hint.)
I know there are many women out there who have had or are still having that experience. I hope they are at least smart enough not to get pregnant and struggle with being single mothers.
Pussnboots at April 26, 2008 1:32 PM
P.S. And most of the couples I knew in those days were living the same way -- the girls went off to work every day and the guys stayed home and pursued their artistic endeavors. No one thought anything of it!
To be fair, I guess I couldn't exactly call them parasites, but they certainly were takers, not givers.
Just thought I'd add this to show my agreement that there were, and probably still are, plenty of women being exploited in this way.
Pussnboots at April 26, 2008 4:42 PM
P.P.S. Let me forestall any comments drawing a parallel between these fellows in my last post and all the stay-at-home housewives out there. These were not marriages and the guys were not cooking, cleaning, or raising my children. No comparison.
Pussnboots at April 26, 2008 7:01 PM
Pussnboots: "I know there are many women out there who have had or are still having that experience. I hope they are at least smart enough not to get pregnant and struggle with being single mothers."
I know a girl who got pregnant at 17 by her first "parasite". She was living with her parents and was in high school. He was an unemployed dropout. They rented an apartment together and she got a part-time retail job. She paid the rent while he hung around the apartment. He didn't like to "babysit" (his term) his son, so the baby stayed with her parents while she was at work. A couple of months in he took off. To keep up the rent she found another "boyfriend". That lasted until she got pregnant by him, and he disappeared. She and her two kids had to move back in with her parents. A couple of years later she met a guy on line. This one had a steady government job and was willing to marry her. Now he works his ass off to support her and the two kids, and he does ALL the cleaning because she won't. She's going through money like crazy for "necessities" like presents for her friends. She still works part-time and they need that extra income for the mortgage, but she wants to not have to work. Her argument is, "The husband is supposed to be the money earner." She's 29 now, by the way.
Its like after her experiences with a couple of parasites she decided she was entitled to be one. The whole situation scares the crap out of me. How the heck did her parents manage to raise her to be a) stupid and b) dependent? And what are HER children going to learn from their parental examples?
Brian: Makes me wonder what happened to that sexual revolution you were talking about. Maybe it only lasted a generation or two?
loopychick at April 27, 2008 9:02 AM
LoopyChick: Perhaps she is just stupid. I think stupid people tend to go through life just responding to immediate sensations, with not much idea of long term plans. This would result in the behaviour you describe. Don't why man #3 took her on though.
If you want an example current in the UK, google for "karen matthews". Six children by seven fathers or thereabouts - it must be hard to keep count. Very sad, and not her fault, but it puts a load on everyone else.
Norman at April 27, 2008 11:33 AM
Loopychick ~~ That's some story. Guess this girl thought the life of a parasite looked pretty good. I wonder how long she'll be able to hang on to this sucker with that attitude. When he leaves, I'm sure her mother will be stuck with her again.
Norman ~~ You made me LOL again -- how can one have six children by seven fathers??? And it's not her fault? Has she never heard of birth control or abortion? Or was she raped by all seven of them? Don't mean to sound so harsh there, but really, as you pointed out, the rest of us have to pay for results of all these "mistakes". (Please note that in your honor I have put the period after the quotation mark, British style. I agree that that's where it logically belongs.)
Pussnboots at April 27, 2008 12:10 PM
Norman: Just did some reading on Karen Matthews. Had heard the missing daughter had been found but hadn't been following the rest of it. Its horrifying. No planning, no birth control, no accountability on either the mother's or the father(s) side; apparently Mum can't manage with some guy in her life. Did she just assume the fathers would take care of her?
This may sound harsh: tell your kids - especially your daughters! - hope for the best, plan for the worst. Don't ever put yourself in the position of HAVING to depend on someone else. You want to have something to fall back on (an education, job skills, savings, some guts and a little common sense) just in case things go bad along the way.
loopychick at April 27, 2008 12:30 PM
Pussnboots: Had to double-check - I think I read 7 children, 5 fathers. Maybe she's trying for her own soccer team?? Horrendous, either way. I'm assuming, perhaps unfairly, that she's on the dole between men.
loopychick at April 27, 2008 12:36 PM
Loopychick ~~ I have no daughters -- or sons, for that matter -- to warn about the long-term consequences of irresponsibility. The reason I have none is that I've always prevented pregnancy from happening, using any and all means necessary. Although I had a wild and crazy youth, I did at least have that much sense.
Norman ~~ Allow me to join you in the "unfair" assumption that this gal is on the dole. Just curious: is abortion legal in the UK? If so, is it paid for by socialized medicine?
Pussnboots at April 27, 2008 1:18 PM
Pussnboots: I meant it's not her fault that she's stupid. Women like her just end up pregnant by feckless males, and their unfortunate children will fare no better. The real question is what, if anything, can be done about it. If we don't provide dole, they will surely starve or freeze to death. But if we do provide dole, it seems we are supporting and enabling a very undesirable state of affairs. I don't think we could say, you can have dole but only if you get sterilized.
We have a TV program called Little Britain, with a character called Vicky Pollard. Karen Matthews seems to be a real life Vicky Pollard. I bet there's lots more of them; they just don't often get much media exposure.
Abortion is legal in the UK. I don't know for sure but I expect it's paid for by the National Health Service.
Norman at April 27, 2008 3:57 PM
Amy- If you try to preview when there are any HTML tags in the comment, you get this error message:
Publish error in template 'Comment Preview Template': Error in tag: Error in tag: The MTCommentFields tag is no longer available; please include the Comment Form template module instead.
It's annoying because it's precisely when you have tags that you most need to preview!
Norman at April 27, 2008 4:00 PM
Yebbut ... nobbut ... she's a total slag! My god, that show is too, too funny - and there's a disturbing element of truth in it.
I don't what the answer is for women like that. I'm English by birth, and my working-class parents sold everything they had to move to Canada in '67. We barely had "a pot to piss in" but I was lucky in two ways: my parents were terrific role models (Mom had always worked and Dad in particular was a firm believer in independence for women), and I had access to excellent health care. When the fateful day came birth control was no-cost and easily obtainable. I'd like to say I was smart, but sometimes there's a fine line between smart and lucky.
I guess the upshot of all this is that if I want to make a huge mess in MY place I can, and if somebody else makes a mess I can kick 'em out.
loopychick at April 27, 2008 6:26 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/04/while-you-were.html#comment-1542900">comment from NormanSorry - I'll tell Gregg. A favor: Can you please e-mail me what computer/OS you're on, and what browser (at adviceamy at aol dot com) and copy this message in if it's no big deal.
Amy Alkon at April 27, 2008 8:40 PM
Norman ~~ Sterilization would surely be a good solution, but probably would be abhorrent to too many people to be enacted.
We have a similar problem in the States -- so-called "welfare moms" who make a career out of having as many children as possible in order to increase the monthly check. At least we did have such people -- I don't know about now, though, as there have been severe cutbacks in welfare lately.
Our government came up with "Workfare", a program which required welfare recipients to work or be trained to work in order to collect welfare. It sounded good, but it caused huge problems for mothers of kids too small to be left home alone. In order to work properly, this program should have included some sort of day care, but I don't think it did.
According to the newspapers, there are now whole families that are homeless and out on the streets.
Not sure that Workfare is entirely to blame, but it probably contributed.
What a mess. And of course it's the children who suffer the most, and all they did was get born.
Pussnboots at April 27, 2008 9:48 PM
test...
"Pink chicken for sale." Call to inquire.
Normie at April 27, 2008 11:53 PM
Is that a natural pink, or did you paint it?
Norman at April 28, 2008 12:38 AM
The first ex-mrs-Gretz (not the recent nutcase)was a neat freak. She didn't concern herself with the things I did outside of her concept of housework. She didn't see mowing the lawn weekly (which includes cleaning up the yard, rolling up hoses, sweeping, weed whacking, trimming bushes, etc, as a few hours of intense, dirty, sweaty work (I have yet to see anyone that sweaty from housework and dishes). She, too, used the justification that it wasn't a daily thing. (there's something heavy and dirty that gets done on a daily basis, or nearly so) I offered to trade, tho. I live in Texas, so she got to try it in July.
She'd go 'on strike', but she'd fail to tell me that's what she was doing, so she'd sit and stew until she was ready to explode. Of course, I was blissfully unaware that she's busy grinding off her molars until I'd step into range and get my head bitten off. She'd start cleaning the house, and I'd join in, but then she'd yell at me for waiting until she got started on it.
Apparently, helping wasn't enough, I had to 'initiate' the cleaning ritual. Trust me, the patronizing lectures on my mid-life adolescence did little to make me seek out her company. She did like being a martyr, tho. I made her a big cross out of 4x4's, and drug it into the house during one of her rants. Didn't go over as well as I'd planned. Must have been missing the thorny crown. Next time, I'll remember to think it all the way through and get all the little details.
The same person would tell me the night before, "We need milk". Then, at 6:30 pm the next day, after a 30-45 minute drive home, (she's already been home an hour, and sore that she's made dinner), when I show up empty handed, would go into a sulk because I obviously didn't care about her. Nevermind that I was willing to hop back into the car and drive the 585 feet to the grocery store and get milk, no no, I had to remember it from the night before, or from 7 am in the morning, or it just wasn't the SAME milk.
Gah, if chores didn't get done the way she'd do them, in the order she'd do them, it was worse than not doing them.
Now, I'm someone who does his own laundry, and doesn't mind throwing her stuff in along with mine, or picking them up from all over the bedroom and closet (Does this fit? drop. Does this look good today? drop. Can't go to the store in this - drop. Can't wear this to the bookstore - drop. Plus tripping over a closet floor full of shoes and clothes to get to my 2' section of clothes rod in the back. But I digress). I don't mind doing dishes, or cooking, or grocery shopping or any other cleaning, including shelves of her brick-a-brack and nick-nacks. I even iron, and while she cooked during the week, I'd cook during the weekend- 6 meals to her 5, and never hamburger helper.
Suffice to say, she collected enough brownstamps to buy her way out of a marriage, by her accounting methods. Oh well. If only I'd learned from that mistake, I could have avoided the second, bigger mistake of getting married again.
gretz at April 28, 2008 6:31 PM
Forgot to add the other things I did - kept all the computers going, fixed the roof, plumbing, electrical, appliances, cars. I'm the one who had to get up in the attic and set traps for the rats, replace garage doors, garage door openers, fix the furnace, change the filters, squish bugs, remove dead animals, paint, tile, replace sheetrock, replace light fixtures, install smoke detectors (the wired kind, not the battery kind), sand and paint cabinets, wallpaper, paint walls and ceilings, clean out the chimney, put furniture togeather, steam the carpets, haul the firewood, clean the oven, clean UNDER the oven and behind it and the fridge, install the microwave, hook up all of the entertainment center, etc.
Oh, yeah, I taught a teenager how to shave and drive a standard transmission.
so, I didn't clean the house up on a daily basis. Sue me.
gretz at April 28, 2008 6:41 PM
Wow. If only we all learned from our mistakes life would be so simple. Was there no hint that these women were "nutcases" before the wedding(s)?
And, "squish bugs, remove dead animals"? Where the heck do you live??
loopychick at April 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Loopy -
First, you're in Canada. It's too cold up there for bugs, so I can see your concern there.
Second, this is what I'm on about. A fair number of American women are bugfuck crazy, but do a very good job of hiding it until after the ring goes on. Once the trap is sprung, the mask comes off.
brian at April 29, 2008 5:55 AM
brian, I could say that a fair amount of males (Canadian or American) are 'bugfuck crazy' too, but since I don't want to get involved with them, I have learned to recognize the very obvious red flags that indicate the crazyness. If you're not sure about a woman's level of sanity, why not ask a trusted female friend or relative her opinion of your date? And what's the big rush in getting married anyway? Once you've closed the deal and made the purchase, some women and men decide it's game over and they don't have to try anymore. Men usually decide they don't have to bother talking to you or spending any time with you, since you're a done deal.
Gretz, why didn't you just get a divorce when the crazy started?
Chrissy at April 29, 2008 7:20 AM
Gretz ~~ Wow! No wonder you're shy. It's more like gun-shy, and with good reason!
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 7:22 AM
Brian ~~ There you go again.
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 7:24 AM
gretz: Ok need a bit of advice. I got a buddy who's dating and living with (not married to yet) your exe's cross generational twin. Had any of your buddies approached you about her being bat shit crazy would you have listened then? What would have been the best way to approach you on the subject?
vlad at April 29, 2008 7:53 AM
Brian ~~ I'm sure a fair amount of American men also are crazy about fucking bugs. Or being fucked by bugs. Or watching bugs fuck. Or whatever.
Point is, your post above is a perfect example of how you and a couple of your compadres always manage turn a topic into a gratuitous slam on women. There are nuts of both sexes -- if you need proof, just look in the mirror!
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 7:53 AM
There are nuts of both sexes -- if you need proof, just look in the mirror!
Puss, yer killin' me - just spewed coffee all over the place! Spanks for the laugh!
Flynne at April 29, 2008 8:18 AM
Flynne ~~ any time!
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 9:28 AM
Dear Amy: My husband says I am bat-shit insane and my lover calls me bugfuck crazy. Which one should I be madder at???
Confused
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 9:31 AM
OMG, where to start?
Brian, sweetie (and maybe Gretz, too) please, please print this out and stick it on your bathroom mirror.
* Not all women are bitches/nutcases. Not all men are assholes/freaks. But some of them ARE. The trick is to identify those as early as possible and then RUN AWAY, preferably before getting marrying them. *
"Once the trap is sprung, the mask comes off." Don't be in such a hurry to step into that trap. Speaking from my experience - all the guys I know got married fast - like in their early 20s. Lots of them are now on their second or third marriages, and they all seemed to rush right out one into the next (someone's definition of insanity, I believe). I don't understand that at all. Of my group of women friends - we're either still single, or married in our mid-30s or later. Its like if you're in a rush to get into something - like a marriage - you're not taking the time to look at the negatives, men and women both.
Gretz: Vlad's right - no point in asking your buddies when they think of your new fiance. Better to ask people who aren't friends - people who know the person through work or whatever but are more likely to give an honest opinion without worrying about hurting a buddy's feelings.
Re: bugs. Lotsa bugs in Canada! Ours are tough enough to survive our -30 degree winters and still terrorize us in July when its +30. (As for the dead animals, I've made one or two of them that way, and removed quite a few - but only when i was working WAY up north.)
Pussnboots: "I'm sure a fair amount of American men also are crazy about fucking bugs. Or being fucked by bugs. Or watching bugs fuck. Or whatever." This is killer. I may have to embroider it on something!
loopychick at April 29, 2008 9:42 AM
Loopychick ~~ Can't wait to se the illustration!
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 10:07 AM
"Gretz: Vlad's right - no point in asking your buddies when they think of your new fiance. Better to ask people who aren't friends - people who know the person through work or whatever but are more likely to give an honest opinion without worrying about hurting a buddy's feelings." I think you mis understood me. My friend is dating someone who's CRAZY, like fatal attraction crazy. I'm looking for an approach he'll actually listen to, gretz went through it. I have told him she's nuts and he writes it off as "But she's really good sometimes" or (cringe) "I kind of asked for it".
vlad at April 29, 2008 10:42 AM
Vlad: Sorry, I kind of did misunderstand. "I kind of asked for it", suggests your friend has self-esteem issues. "But she's really good sometimes", really says that the rest of the time she's NOT. Maybe he's worried that she's the best he can do?
Maybe show him Gretz's post, introduce him to a nice, sane girl, and track the bunny-boiler's last boyfriend down for an instructive chat?
Hey, maybe he should write to the Advice Goddess! Something like, "My friends think my girlfriend is Fatal Attraction crazy, but she's really good sometimes. What should I do?"
loopychick at April 29, 2008 11:27 AM
Loopy - I'm both an asshole AND batshit crazy. The difference between me and a gold-digger is I neither disguise nor deny these things. Well, maybe in professional relations, but nobody's going to get hurt there, because my being a crazy asshole doesn't detract from my ability as a programmer.
Another difference is that I don't have any legally-sanctioned methods to fuck someone else's life up and be praised for it.
I'd be quite supportive of a law that required everyone to disclose the level of "asshole" and "crazy" they contained in their psychological makeup as a precursor to marriage. A lot of damage could be avoided that way.
So, you're saying to yourself: "Self, why did this crazy asshole go off on another misogynistic rant?"
Basically, because LW exhibits a high level of crazy, her boyfriend exhibits a high level of asshole, and they shouldn't be together. But should they get married, after the inevitable divorce he's more likely than she to be left a financial wreck. She would be doing both of them a favor if she told him to take a hike, and then thanked whatever God she worships that he let his inner asshole out before she bore his kids.
And why is it her responsibility? Because either she hasn't revealed her inner bitch to him, or he has a high tolerance for it.
brian at April 29, 2008 11:30 AM
Brian: "I'd be quite supportive of a law that required everyone to disclose the level of "asshole" and "crazy" they contained in their psychological makeup ... " I'm with you there - I always thought there should be tattoos, or possibly a notarized document with comments from previous victims, er, significant others. But then I thought that was maybe a little too Third Reich.
" So, you're saying to yourself: "Self, why did this crazy asshole go off on another misogynistic rant?" " Nope, not saying that to myself at all, and if I was I'd be saying it to you right here and now. Although, I'm surprised that as a computer programmer you seem to operate more from emotion than from logic.
Anyway, I will say that their are all kinds of gold-diggers out there, but they all have different ideas about what personally constitutes "gold". For some, as in the classic example, its $$$. For others its not being lonely, or having someone to wash their socks and make sure the fridge is stocked with food that doesn't move around at night, or conforming to societal or parental expectations (all my fiends got married therefore ... ). And really its lovely that you don't deny your dark side - but I'm guessing (or at least hoping) that you're not trying to lure anyone into marriage. Because here's the thing: for gold-diggers of all stripes its in their best interests to "disguise and deny" their less-attractive traits in order that they can get what they want. The trick is to put your brain to work and figure out - hey, she only wants to marry me so she won't have to work, or he wants to marry me because he wants kids, or whatever the reason - the ulterior motive. And because people don't come with tattooed warning labels we have to keep our wits about us and figure out the subtext. You have to make sure that her expectations from marriage and yours are compatible before taking the leap. Its HARD spending your life with someone else, but too many people overlook the warning signs in that first bloom of love or lust, and assume it will all be happily-ever-after. And sometimes, when things do go bad, they label their partner (or the opposite sex) as the black hat - its all his fault, or her fault - without taking into consideration their own responsibility in making a short-sighted decision.
If the LW and her bf get married, and then divorced, he may well end up being a financial wreck - that's the way the world is at this point in time (I thought we'd covered this earlier?? or maybe that was another column?). I don't get any idea from the LWs letter that either of them exhibits a "high level of crazy". A certain level of incompatibility, yes, and maybe not something they can overcome. And this is only the LW's responsibility because SHE was the one who recognized a problem and wrote to Amy for advice. Make no mistake, if the boyfriend wrote in tomorrow wondering about what he should do about his "neat freak" girlfriend I'd be the first, but probably not the last, to say either work it out before moving in together, or else run away now.
loopychick at April 29, 2008 12:10 PM
loopychick: Yes his self esteem is shot, yes he thinks he can't do better and there are no previous boy friends. Shit I can't even find one real friend the best I'm finding is acquaintances for her.
vlad at April 29, 2008 1:34 PM
vlad: No friends. Well THERE'S a huge red flag. Maybe you should show him this column?
That's so sad. Seriously, I don't even know what to say now. Its good that he has a friend that's as concerned as you are about him.
loopychick at April 29, 2008 1:46 PM
vlad, it sounds like you'll just be watching a train wreck happen. If your friend has no self-esteem, then you won't be able to talk him out of it. How about getting him really drunk and taking him to a hooker, then letting the girlfriend find out about it? Maybe he'll be lucky and she'll dump him. Just a thought, it would be for his own good. He'll probably hate you for doing though, because he'll figure he'll never get laid again, so maybe you shouldn't.
It's so sad though, I see so many guys like that.
Chrissy at April 29, 2008 3:43 PM
Did anyone here lose a chicken? I just found one -- she's kind of scruffy, but looks as if someone might have tried to paint her pink at one time. I've tried to pick her up, but she's a bit peckish.
Pussnboots at April 29, 2008 8:46 PM
Haven't had time to read everything yet, but so far i am loving it
Lyn Bramucci at June 19, 2011 7:44 AM
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