Dis Dis Bang Bang
I'm 29, as is the woman I've been seeing for three months. After she kept pulling away when I tried to kiss her, she confessed that kissing is very, very intimate to her. She'll actually sleep with someone before kissing them. In fact, we've been having sex for a while -- without kissing. She had girlfriends in college, and said she found it easier kissing girls. She claims she doesn't want a girlfriend -- she prefers guys -- she just needs me to be patient, as she's "scared to death" of kissing, and "can't do it right now." I really like her, but I found out her last relationship lasted two years, and they never kissed. I don't think I can wait that long.
--Smacked Down
It's got to be weird, dating a girl for whom safe sex probably means you wear a condom and she hockey masks up like Jason from "Friday the 13th." What do you do for foreplay, tell her "I just love how the moonlight glistens on your fiberglass-encased head"?
Your girlfriend probably isn't germ-phobic since she kissed girls and doesn't mention making them gargle Listerine with a Lysol chaser. But, about those forays into Lesbianapolis, you've gotta wonder, does she really prefer guys or does she just prefer to prefer guys? If she really isn't into women, maybe it was no big deal for her to kiss them. It's also possible she was molested or exposed to some sexual weirdness. I called sex therapist Stephanie Buehler, who explained, "Somehow she's made a rule for herself...made it okay to have intercourse. It's almost like she (uses) intercourse...to sort of hide the fact that she isn't really that interested in emotional intimacy. I guess giving sex is easy for her, and she knows it's something that will keep a guy around."
It is tempting, when you're into somebody, to approach your relationship like Peter Pan. As Walt Disney's Peter put it in 1953, "All it takes is faith and trust. ... Now think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings. ... You can fly!" Yes, it sounds so romantic, believing against all odds. Of course, if you actually jump out the window, you will not be going for one long makeout session in Neverland; you will be going in a big black zipped bag to the coroner.
A wiser approach, when your girlfriend asks you to "be patient," is to ask yourself, "For what -- celebrating our two-year anniversary with an air-kiss or a lingering thumbs up?" While you're "patient" she has little incentive to get impatient -- or to become the patient of a sex therapist (see AASECT.org, the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists). Tell her you can't live without kissing, but you're willing to wait a little longer if she'll do more than sit around feeling scared. Encourage her to talk about her fears, and she might come to see that they're about as grounded in reality as "Step on a crack, break your mother's back" (or the more modern "Step on a crack vial...").
If talking goes well, maybe she'll let you work your way from home base to first: kissing her forearm and the back of her neck, and moving on to cheek and lip pecks, and more. Give yourself (and maybe her) a deadline -- a couple months? -- to see some progress. Otherwise, good luck, come Christmas party time, not only helping your friend and host revive his elderly auntie, but explaining why you and your girlfriend really had no choice but to have sex under the mistletoe.
OK, this is just sick. Intercourse is OK. Fine. But don't kiss me? "Pretty Woman" anybody? How in the shit is kissing more intimate than fucking? "have sex under the mistletoe"? Now there is a whole new role for mistletoe. The holidays will never be the same.
jonathan at May 6, 2008 9:02 PM
Not kissing after 3 months is one thing(supposing your dates have been spaced out an average of 3 weeks between each one)
If what he says is true about her never having kissed her last signifigant other in over two years, that kinda wierd.
I'd talk to the last guy and see what the hell was up, but this seems like a level of crazy that is going to manifest itself in other ways as time progresses
lujlp at May 6, 2008 9:14 PM
Amy ~~ The mistletoe image ia a killer! You have such an original sense of humor.
I think the gradual approach you mentioned is a good idea, and the time limit is an even better one. But I think it will take professional help to straighten out this twisted sister.
Pussnboots at May 6, 2008 9:31 PM
For some interesting holiday oral sex, hang the mistletoe that's imported from France.
Is this lady afraid only of mouth to mouth contact, or is putting her lips on anything also taboo?
Just wondering where she draws the line.
Pete the Streak at May 7, 2008 4:24 AM
I have read this article three times and I think the lady needs helps. The whole "Sex is okay but kissing is too intimate for me" sounds way too twisted foe me.
Unless if the Lady is a closeted lesbian who tries to prove she's straight. In this case, it's not about mental health issues but honesty.
Toubrouk at May 7, 2008 4:44 AM
But I think it will take professional help to straighten out this twisted sister.
Agreed. This poor child has more issues than Kleenex has tissues! o_O
Flynne at May 7, 2008 5:07 AM
Personally, I'd run really fast in whatever direction she isn't. Even if we did finally dematriculate to first base it would take a long time to convince me that she actually wanted to be there.
Dale at May 7, 2008 5:49 AM
Sounds like some fubar religious up bringing. An acquaintance of my wife would't wash um down there cause it was masturbating and that's wrong. Yet premarital sex was completely fine. The girl had a cloying odor to her as you would imagine.
The other option is that her parents never talked about sex in the sense of actual tab A into slot b. They may have vilified any premarital contact with men, as evil. However they only went as far as kissing in explaining to her (likely at a young age) what said contact was. So in her twisted mind sex may not be this dreaded pre-marital contact.
She's definatly got her hangups but running screaming is a bit of an over reaction. If you really like her and you see this progressing into something more then sex with no tongue twisting talk to her see if she opens up as to why she feels this way. Then she might want to see a shrink, there's nothing wrong with helping her through this.
To answer the obvious reaction: No it's not his responsibility to fix her but if she's great in most other aspects I see nothing wrong with working on it.
vlad at May 7, 2008 6:10 AM
I guess I'm just a bitch, but I would have already been gone, like right after the kissing is too intimate part. Maybe it's my age. I don't have patience for all the baggage. She needs to get back to carpet munching.
kg at May 7, 2008 8:22 AM
Reminds me of a song by Smashmouth:
Florence if you hear this wont you
Come and take your girlfriend back
She's been calling out your name
Every time were in the sack
moreta at May 7, 2008 8:41 AM
I wouldn't waste my time on someone with such a ridiculous hang-up. And maybe I'm being a bit of a cynic, but my little "she is having fun keeping you dangling" alarm bell went off, too. Maybe her REAL hang-up isn't the kissing, but a perverse desire to withhold something she knows he wants as a way of stringing him along. It really wouldn't matter to me - I'd be gone either way.
Pirate Jo at May 7, 2008 9:37 AM
Maybe she has a bad case of oral herpes and doesn't want to talk about it.
anon at May 7, 2008 10:14 AM
Rumor has it that hookers are also anti-kissing, apparently to reduce the risk of emotional involvement with their customers.
PJ's alarm bell may be accurate, too. Either way, I vote to dump her and move on.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 7, 2008 10:33 AM
I've read Tracy Quan and other sex workers on this issue. The reasons sex workers don't like to kiss johns are, in general, these:
1. They don't want to catch a cold.
2. They don't kiss people they aren't attracted to, or don't feel some emotion for.
3. It's something they reserve for their non-pay relationships (usually for one of the reasons in number two).
Amy Alkon at May 7, 2008 11:21 AM
All of these hypotheses sound quite plausible, and they all are danger flags.
Unless the LW can root out the cause and make measurable progress helping her deal with it and whatever other hangups come along with it, he should run like the wind.
Otherwise he could become more and more emotionally involved, more reluctant to let go, more unwilling to give up after investing so much time and effort, and deeper and deeper into the quagmire.
Kinda like Vietnam. And Iraq.
Pussnboots at May 7, 2008 1:05 PM
"Kinda like Vietnam. And Iraq."
When are you people going to realize that Vietnam and Iraq are COMPLETELY different?!
For starters, Iraq has very few trees.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 7, 2008 1:19 PM
I'm with lujlp; it sounds like this gal has some pretty serious pathologies, and that's bound to start expressing itself in other ways eventually. She clearly isn't doing anything about it, either. I can't imagine what the issue is, but it doesn't really matter either. Lesson I learned some time ago:
1. Feeling sorry for someone is not the same as loving them.
2. I'll never be a professional therapist.
3. When you're on a sinking ship, any other course of action is better than staying on board.
Cousin Dave at May 7, 2008 1:26 PM
Cousin Dave,
Nice!
kg at May 7, 2008 1:38 PM
I just heard pretty interesting research presented by Susan M. Hughes at NEEPS (the NorthEast Evolutionary Psych Society conference) this past week. Here's a WaPo piece referencing it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/10/AR2008021001197_pf.html
Amy Alkon at May 7, 2008 3:01 PM
He said that she said that kissing was "very, very intimate to her." Then he reports that her last relationship (somehow) lasted two years without this 'intimate' act having ever taken place. Besides hearing a raging voice in my head asking "Who could stand it!?" I wondered, "How long does it take this gal to get intimate with someone?" I totally get that some people need a bit longer than others, but two years without having done the deed (so to speak)? Yikes!
The letter just resonated all sorts of creepy to me, and I hope the LW takes your advice. More, I hope that the LW's girlfriend takes whatever he tries to do to be helpful in hand rather than dashing it away (which is what I'd predict would happen since she's in her late 20s and not her late teens). She needs to recognize that she needs help and that the first step to getting comfortable is to first become uncomfortable... whether that be by wading in with kisses on the hand or hashing it out with a therapist.
Jean Moczy at May 7, 2008 6:32 PM
Gog_Magog ~~ I sit corrected!
Pussnboots at May 7, 2008 9:44 PM
Perhaps kissing just isn't her thing. Wait! Women are supposed to be starry-eyed about kissing (and cuddling), right? What kind of woman tears up the bases and leaves you with home plate? But our beta male still wants to hug and kiss and cuddle. *Screech* Let's slam on the brakes, someone's about to have a panic attack. "So...ummmm....yeah, it's a very intimate thing for me." But she kissed all those girls in college! Right, becuase those silly, college girls don't know that a bunch of hot, girls kiss gives alot guys a hard-on.
-or-
Maybe she just likes her jack-rabbit just the way he is. Ever been with someone who was good with his hands, and good with his dong, but not with his tongue? Why risk flawing someone if you don't have too?
erin at May 8, 2008 1:38 AM
I suppose it could be he's just a bad kisser, or she's afraid that his 10 o'clock shadow that's so popular with the younger guys these days would scrape her skin raw. (I don't know how the girls can put up with it!) But since she was the same way with her ex, I still think the problem is the kink in her brain cells.
Anyway, this will be my last post for a while --we're off to the wilds of the Maine coast where we won't have internet access. I sure will miss our talks -- see you in eight weeks or so.
Pussnboots at May 8, 2008 9:39 AM
I used to think I hated kissing. Then, I got divorced and realized it wasn't the kissing but the kisser! My ex had halitosis and was also really bad at it. I always felt like I was smothering. Plus, due to other issues, I just didn't feel emotionally connected to him, so I relate to what she's saying about kissing being more intimate than sex. Having sex with him was indeed easier than bearing the torture of his smothery, slobbery, smelly kisses!
After becoming single, I was able to date men who were great kissers and discovered I REALLY love kissing, especially when I feel close.
So, I think it's possible that rather than being a lost cause, as several posters feel, this LW has either had similar bad kissing experiences, or she just isn't emotionally connected to this guy, or the last one. Possibly because she's really into girls and just can't bring herself to admit it. Deep down, she's saving that "special intimacy" for when she's "in love" - like the hookers do.
Or she may even have a breathing or sinus problem. I have allergies too, so it was almost like claustrophobia, or a drowning feeling, when I was on the receiving end of those bad kisses, which caused me to dread them. But now I know a great kisser gives you a chance to breathe.
At any rate, Amy's advice is excellent. Hopefully, with help, she can get to the real issue.
lovlysoul at May 8, 2008 11:40 AM
Don't try to fix weird people by dating them (also known as hanging around waiting for them to get fixed during the relationship). If their sh-t is weird, and you don't dig it that way, bail.
Leave the mending to professionals and masochists who enjoy dating drama head cases like this. If *you* are such a masochist, then quit writing letters to people about it.
Of course, it might be the gal just isn't into kissing. But if so, she needs to own up to it. If she cannot, see above advice.
Spartee at May 10, 2008 1:56 PM
"Don't try to fix weird people by dating them." This belongs on a wall 'o quotes somewhere.
Pirate Jo at May 13, 2008 8:39 AM
I'm with the person who says to leave the mending to professionals. It gets to be a bit of a head trip to imagine that we have some kind of special job to fix people. If after compassion, patience, and a referral to a professional therapist, the person doesn't change, the only thing this guy can change is himself. Putting yourself in the role of 'healer' while being treated in a shabby manner is a kind of psychological masochism, and a bit of a futile ego trip at the same time. The only thing we can ever really change is ourselves, and our reaction to situations.
Trudy at May 18, 2008 10:30 AM
How's this guys breath?
I personally am super sensative smells. I dumped guys over smell and it wasn't like they were unbathed or that the smell they emitted was bad to everyone, it just was to me.
Remember when Drakker cologne was all the rage? ICK.
I would tell this guy to get some mints, if she doesn't come around after that, then she is just some weirdo that wants to lay her baggage at his door.
Wanda at June 23, 2008 7:37 AM
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