Trauma Queen
I'm a 40-year-old guy seeing a 29-year-old woman for four months. I seem to have a pattern of dating women with serious problems. Sure enough, weeks after we met, she suffered a major emotional upheaval that triggered issues from her history of abuse (a vicious marriage). As an understanding companion, educated about abuse (I'm a part-time counselor), I've elected to stay. This has meant shelving my needs across the board. Sex was okay at first, but we hadn't been together many times before she fell apart, suffering from major PTSD symptoms. I'm her mainstay, so we're still seeing each other, but without physical intimacy, and she isn't even comfortable going out on dates. There's no telling when she'll want me as a companion again, but I can't just toss somebody to the curb when they've been hit by a bus.
--There For Her
So, you're a part-time counselor. Aren't you supposed to close your case files and take off your telephone headset before you leave the crisis center? I mean, if you were a doctor, you wouldn't go home and remove your wife's appendix or go to neighborhood barbecues and do tonsillectomies.
Of course, probably a big part of your self-image is how different you are from ordinary men. For starters, most guys just have to match their belt and shoes. You've got an additional element to coordinate -- that 9-foot wooden cross you strap on your back every morning. But, hey, it's for a noble cause. Or...is it? There you are, time and time again, pairing up with women who are too wounded to leave you. Hell, this one probably had a hard time leaving some guy who beat her up. And then, just weeks into knowing you, she's too shell-shocked to go on dinner dates. Yet, instead of telling her, "Hey, let's be friends," you trot over, make her a little nest, and feed her out of an eyedropper.
Now, it's one thing if your longtime love gets diagnosed with a brain tumor. Of course you're not gonna be, like, "Well, bummer! I'm outta here. Good luck with chemo! If I remember, I'll send you one of those cute knit hats with a butterfly pinned on it." It's a totally different story -- or should be -- when you've just met somebody, and it's clear that they aren't partner material in really fundamental ways. That's your cue to extend your arm and flail your hand around. Also known as waving goodbye.
The reality is, you're probably too wimpy to take the chance that somebody would want you just for you, and not because having your shoulder to cry on saves them hundreds of dollars in Kleenex. But, instead of recognizing your wimpiness as a flaw to fix, you spin it like you're on assignment for Doctors Without Borders (uh, try Man Without Testicles). As a bonus, you get to feel like Dr. Phil next to all these Humpty Dumpties -- giving you even less incentive to mop up after yourself. Breaking your pattern takes having the guts to be selfish. Not mean-selfish, but appropriately selfish: putting your needs first. You should also redefine your idea of a relationship. Here, try mine: "Two people who have more fun together and are better together than they are alone." You're sure to find it more satisfying than the redefinition you've been working from: "It's not that she won't have sex with me, it's just that her idea of foreplay is a decade of intensive therapy."
Amy,
You have no idea how appropriate this is for a thing I am dealing with. But it's a work thing. Our department head is the person that has to go to therapy before even thinking about responsibilities that have been planned forever, and when called on it...saves the plan and then has a therapy for sleep disorder and skin disorder or sugar disorder...anything to just not do what she is supposed to do.
I've been there three years, in a community college where she is the department head, and the first few disorders...I kind of went with it, but once she was breaking down in the middle of the day for no apparent reason and our boss above her took care of it...I started to take notice. She has a caretaker, a guy with a huge 9' cross on his back that takes care of all she shucks off. She is my department head and we talk all of two times a semester, because the guy with the cross on his back takes care of it for her.
Since I got there, several others have come on board and are calling BS. But the guy with the cross on his back still takes care of it all.
Now, he's getting slammed because he's not taking care of his own job. Well, helloooo!
Several people have tried to talk with him, and he shucks it off as his job, and he and I have what I thought was a good working relationship on other things, but he goes totally blank on this. He is allowing himself to be taken down by this person who can't deal with the basics of her job. From the one honest talk I had with him, he said that he thought that his work with her (covering for her) was something that everyone else should understand and actually give him credit for.
Now, I'm no counselor or psychologist, but for someone to say that they are taking care of another knowing well that it hurts them, and it hurts everyone else around because we all have to go after and clean up the crap...seems very narcissistic to me. Like he is some great person for covering for her, and we all need to buy into it. Well, we aren't, and eventually the shit will hit the fan.
Such is life. People take care of martyrs and drama queens. In our particular place, there are enough of us taking care of their asses that I think there will be an uproar at some point. Actually I know there will be, just depends on if it comes from above or below. I'm betting on above, because neither is listening to below, and those from above have been fishing for how to get beyond this mad mix they have.
Ang at July 30, 2008 12:15 AM
"We're still seeing each other, but without physical intimacy and she isn't even comfortable going out on dates." Sounds like she doesn't have the guts to tell the guy she doesn't want to continue in a relationship with him and he doesn't have the brains to figure it out.
Jan at July 30, 2008 12:49 AM
Martyrdom does not equal enabling - or does it? My ex-in-laws have been doing this for years with their son, and his sister is pissed off at me because I left him and returned the burden to his parents. Sorry, but I have better things to do than cater to a narcissitic BPD. The LW is yet another guy who needs to grow a backbone where his wishbone is. Good luck to him.
Flynne at July 30, 2008 5:23 AM
People are throwing around the word "narcissistic" like it's birdseed, here. I wouldn't say that these people described are narcissistic--it's more that they're co-dependents. Well, that is, Ang calls the caretaker narcissistic, and Flynne calls the needy person narcissistic, and these are opposing positions in the dysfunctional couples we're talking about. I would say instead that often the co-dependent person is like a narcissist by proxy--or like Echo, if you want to keep it going with the Narcissus story. These are people who may have been raised from young childhood with the job of being an emotional caretaker for a parent, and so being such a caretaker for a romantic partner or work associate feels natural and right, and they just don't get that it's very dysfunctional and they're being used. And because they end up being the thrall of the needy person, they end up doing whatever the needy person says. And since the needy person is so often narcissistic, they end up engaging in narcissistic acts without realizing they're doing so, and without technically being narcissistic themselves--based on my own too too frequent interactions with these couples. It's like you're a narcissist-in-law, and don't realize your own ability to have a choice in these matters, because it all feels so natural.
I'd also add to the LW, that if you'd only been dating this woman for a few months, and became her mainstay after she fell apart, that's kind of a flag right there that she doesn't have a good support system, possibly because she's used them all up.
Quizzical at July 30, 2008 6:09 AM
"I seem to have a pattern of dating women with serious problems." Well that would sum up the whole thing in a nut shell. He knows he has this problem but like an addict he just keep going back for his fix. You doing a disservice to yourself and more importantly your doing a disservice to your partners. Until they have a reason to get better they will not do so. Your loving constant enabling is not what they need to get better.
vlad at July 30, 2008 6:53 AM
What was the LW's question? Presumably he wrote to Amy seeking something - a medal, perhaps? Once again, someone is writing to the wrong advice columnist for validation.
RS at July 30, 2008 7:15 AM
I'd find it insulting if a guy stayed with me because he feels I'm too week to get along without him.
...I'd prefer a guy to assume I'm sane enough to get over him.
sofar at July 30, 2008 7:56 AM
Amy, this is a SUPER example of your giving straight talk to a LW who desperately needs a reality check. I'm so impressed you managed to say exactly what he needs to hear in the space of a column. If he follows your advice, he will certainly thank you later on for giving him the straightforward goods.
Melissa G at July 30, 2008 8:21 AM
"The LW is yet another guy who needs to grow a backbone where his wishbone is."
Flynne, that is bloody brilliant!!! :D
Melissa G at July 30, 2008 8:25 AM
I may be projecting here, but something about the LW's "girlfriend" reminds me of my mother. She traps herself in her own trauma and despair because she feeds off the attention. It would be interesting for the LW to step back and see what happens.
MonicaP at July 30, 2008 8:27 AM
Yeah, I loved that too, Flynn. Never heard that phrase before.
Quizzical, you know so much about narcissism. Are you a therapist?
lovelysoul at July 30, 2008 8:28 AM
Quizzical, you know so much about narcissism. Are you a therapist?
Alas, no--it's life experience growing up. That stuff I said above about narcissist by proxy I made up, so it's not therapist-talk. I don't think I've read about it anywhere, but it's been helpful for me in understanding exactly what's going on with people sometimes. I hate to condemn people's altruistic impulses, and that's what the LW has. But what some don't realize is that hitching your altruistic impulses to a narcissist or someone with borderline personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder, etc., is like what happens when a spider gets a parasite--the spider continues to spin webs, but the parasite alters the spider's own signals so that instead of spinning an orb to catch food, it makes a big spider silk ball that is going to be the spider's own coffin once the parasite is done consuming the spider.
Quizzical at July 30, 2008 8:53 AM
lol. Gee, I'm glad I got out before the web was spun. That's so true.
But, you know, my ex didn't present as tragic or ill. His particular way of consuming people was to convinve THEM that they were in dire need of help, and more importantly him....which I'm sure is part of LW's issue. As Amy said - not feeling like anyone could love him for him, only if he "rescues" them.
For instance, I'm adopted, so for the first few years of our marriage, he kept trying to pursuade me that I had severe abandonment issues from that, although I really never felt that way. I was only 6 months old when I was adopted. Of course, how can you disprove a negative? The more I protested, the more it began to seem that perhaps he was right, and I was merely in denial, so, for most of the early years, I was the one who needed "rescuing."
He even made me do EST, so it would "heal" me, and stuff like that. It took me YEARS to finally see which of us truly needed help and who was actually the "rescuer".
It sounds like this girl in LW's life is truly messed up...but it also could be that he WANTS her to be messed up. Funny that she was able to have sex with him and everything at first, then suddenly fell apart, isn't it?
lovelsoul at July 30, 2008 9:23 AM
"He even made me do EST" by EST do you mean Electro shock therapy?
I think he has the scent of a desperate white knight. He feels most comfortable in the caring role and thus attracts certain women. He may also be looking for women in the wrong place. Picking up chicks at the local mental hospital (he didn't say if he's a phone or in person councilor) is usually a bad idea, ditto for rehab.
vlad at July 30, 2008 9:47 AM
Also, I wonder how he met her. If he's using his counseling capacity to meet and date women, who are naturally going to be vulnerable, that's totally unethical.
lovelysoul at July 30, 2008 9:48 AM
They're perfect for each other, she wants to be messed up, and he wants someone who is messed up =) ... (just kidding .. that was un-constructive of me).
David J at July 30, 2008 10:04 AM
No, you might not be far off, Dave. When I met the ex, I was an art student in NYC. Now, there's something about artists where they think they can't be happy. You don't see many happy-go-lucky artists. We're all reading Sylvia Plath, wearing black, carrying our portfolios and looking glum and depressed on the subways. Even if we had picket-fence backgrounds, we somehow WANTED to be messed up...there's a romance to it..."suffering" for art. So, I can honestly say that applied to me then.
Therefore, it wasn't so much "if" I would meet someone who'd mess me up - or give me reasons to feel messed up - it was only a matter of "when". I was ripe pickin' for the "abuser/rescuer" mentality.
God, we're so stupid when we're young! :-)
lovelysoul at July 30, 2008 10:34 AM
What's changed? I'm still stupid now!
brian at July 30, 2008 10:38 AM
Brian: welcome to that club - we're all stupid in one way or another.
You're all right - the LW needs to take a look at his pattern: why and how does he end up dating needy women? Its telling, I think, that his gf suddenly fell apart after they'd been dating for a few weeks. If this is happening with other women he's been seeing it suggests that he's throwing out signals - lean on me, I'll help you. And they do.
In this relationship - such as it is - he needs to decide whether he's going to be a counsellor or a boyfriend. He can't be both. Its honorable that he doesn't want to abandon this woman in her hour of need but he can't fix her himself. She needs to do that, along with the medical professionals, counsellors, therapies that he can suggest to her. He can after that offer moral support and an occasional ear, but he can't be her caregiver.
That's the only way he'll learn if David J's right: " ... she wants to be messed up, and he wants someone who is messed up".
catspajamas at July 30, 2008 10:53 AM
*most guys just have to match their belt and shoes.*
That's just crazy talk! No WAY am I going to take on that level of responsibility!
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 30, 2008 10:59 AM
I've known guys who were attracted to the "train-wreck" types. They feel better about themselves if they have someone to "fix".
I suppose it's easier than dealing with the internal problems.
brian at July 30, 2008 11:00 AM
OMG. I had one of these. Very briefly (what can I say--he was hot and the sex was amazingly good . . . until he lost interest because I wasn't screwed up enough). I realized he had this "rescuing wounded birds" thing when he kept trying to pry my deep dark secrets out of me. Which didn't exist. I wasn't sexually abused as a child. Nobody beat me. And so on. He was sure that just meant I was in denial about the horrible abuse I must have experienced . . . because apparently only abused women liked him. When he started spending a lot of time with a girl who cut and burned herself, enjoyed being choked unconscious during sex, and often forgot to take her antipsychotic drugs, I called it a day.
Anathema at July 30, 2008 11:08 AM
Man, I can't believe the length of the thread I missed by being away last week. Killed a whole morning of "supposed to be catching up on work" to read it all! Your comment is interesting, brian, as I thought women were generally more often into the martyr thing. I didn't realize there was any noticeable number of guys who were like that as well. I didn't realize the guys who fell for these "train-wrecks" were into the fixing to feel better thing...I just thought they felt they couldn't do any better.
moreta at July 30, 2008 11:13 AM
I suppose it's easier than dealing with the internal problems.
Well, sure it is! By focusing on how screwed up someone else is, you don't have to acknowledge or fix how screwed up you are, unless or until someone else comes along and points that out to you.
Oh and Melissa and lovlysoul, I got that cute little phrase from the Heartless Bitches International website. There's lots of good articles on empowerment that don't overly (or overtly) promote any particular brand of feminism. A lot of the articles are somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Lots of the quotes too, like this one:
"Judge not a man by the size of his dick, but rather by the strength of the spine that connects his brain to his ass." Of course, as in all things, YMMV. o_O
Flynne at July 30, 2008 11:20 AM
Quizzical, well bird seed is pretty expensive just to toss around--LOL! But you're right that adults who put others' needs before their own often learned that growing up. I sure did--my mother's needs always came waaaay before mine and it never even occurred to me I was allowed to have needs. I also felt I had to go above and beyond for people to like me; being me was never enough in my family of origin. It was only my usefulness to them that mattered. Although I've made a ton of progress, I still struggle with feelings of inadequacies, but thankfully I do not ACT on these feelings, and I've really changed my relationships in the last several years to be more balanced.
Monica at July 30, 2008 11:58 AM
OK, so where in this whole scheme do guys who like dating crazy chicks fit in? It seems like a lot of guys like going for the crazy chicks. Y'all know what I'm talking about.
Oh, and someone asked about EST. I assume lovelysoul means Erhard Seminars Training, a popular "self help" fad in the '70s. I'm not entirely sure what it entailed, but it was really popular in Southern California, almost taking on the mantle of a cult, so enthusiastic were adherents. I think part of it was you getting yelled at, insulted, crushed, and broken down at a lot. Hmmmm. Maybe this phenomenon's popularity is somehow linked to the whole crazy chick attraction thing?
Quizzical at July 30, 2008 1:24 PM
I dunno, I was always told to never sleep with anyone crazier than myself. I always thought that wouldn't be a limitation, but apparently I'm not as crazy as I thought I was.
brian at July 30, 2008 1:26 PM
Yes, quizzical, that was it. Werner Erhard. lol EST was really big in NY at the time. The funny thing is that the ex enrolled us to "help" me, but by the end, he was the one who was "broken" and fell apart emotionally. All that confrontation brought up his childhood abuse issues. And he got really angry and stood up at the end, and said it was a "ripoff", which it probably was, but I was so embarrassed!
lovelysoul at July 30, 2008 1:58 PM
lovelysoul, I went through the EST "training" as well, but it was a family thing (as in, everybody in my family did it). Yes, they yelled, they peeled away at everything until all of a person's problems came bubbling up, and then at the end they told us we were nothing. No joke. I have to admit, though, that I overcame their attempted brainwashing pretty well. I don't think it helped anybody in my family - my stepsister didn't stop being a thief and a bitch, anyway. But we all had that nifty catch phrase to say to each other when we got on each other's nerves, "get off it!" lol, what a waste of money and time that was!
Sandy at July 30, 2008 2:25 PM
I'm having a hard time labelling any of these people as narcissists. I was raised by a narcissist, but I didn't realize it until about 10-15 years ago when I was introduced to the word. I did some studying about it, so even though I'm no expert, I know a bit about it. Narcissists like the world to reflect back to them in the way that they see it. In a nutshell, if you agree with them they like you, and if you don't, they have no use for you, whether you're a stranger, their child, their spouse, whatever. Children of narcissists often grow up to become enablers and people pleasers. The LW sounds like he may have been raised by a narcissist. If he can recognise that and learn how to deal with it he may be able to fix himself.
Laurie at July 30, 2008 3:45 PM
"OK, so where in this whole scheme do guys who like dating crazy chicks fit in? It seems like a lot of guys like going for the crazy chicks. Y'all know what I'm talking about."
Well, that explains a lot. I often get the "you're too independent; you don't NEED me" talk. I always figured I should be with a guy because I want to be, not because I need to be, but it does seem to me that quite a few guys are attracted to needy/helpless.
I'm curious if the LW generally dates younger women? Maybe that's part of the attraction for him i.e. young = needs protection?
catspajamas at July 30, 2008 3:55 PM
I'm having a hard time labelling any of these people as narcissists.
I would agree, Laurie, and didn't mean to imply that anyone in the above scenarios necessarily was one. There's not enough info.
Quizzical at July 30, 2008 6:50 PM
I wonder if she rings him for support or he rings her to see if shes ok, Im guessing the latter.
The funniest part is he is a therapist asking an advice columnist for advice. lol therapists are usually crazier than their patients.
Jan is on the money with this:
"We're still seeing each other, but without physical intimacy and she isn't even comfortable going out on dates." Sounds like she doesn't have the guts to tell the guy she doesn't want to continue in a relationship with him and he doesn't have the brains to figure it out.
Al at July 31, 2008 9:13 AM
Actually, reading it again he is a dickhead, there is no relationship. She has probably just realised that she has found she has a history of meeting controlling wankers and is scared.
I would have used narcissist in this but I havent a clue what one is
Al at July 31, 2008 9:22 AM
"OK, so where in this whole scheme do guys who like dating crazy chicks fit in? It seems like a lot of guys like going for the crazy chicks. Y'all know what I'm talking about."
Crazy chicks? From a guys perspective, it's a cost/benefit ratio. Crazy chicks are also crazy in bed.
It's when the crazy-out-of-bed turns psychotic that he starts to overlook the crazy-in-bed benefit.
Maybe.
Dave from Hawaii at July 31, 2008 1:49 PM
HA! Dave, I love the honesty. And you're probably on to something. Guys are attracted by the pheremones first. Crazy chicks must have a strong odor!
Laurie at July 31, 2008 2:47 PM
I think guys like crazy chicks because they are better than TV!
Pirate Jo at July 31, 2008 3:09 PM
Great discussion, far beyond what I ever considered in it all..but I do want to come back and explain the narcissistic comment.
When I first started seeing the dynamic that I commented on, I thought the guy carrying the cross on his back was just a good guy who took care of things for other people...kind of like the guy that has a sign on his back that says "step on me, please". But after working with him for 3 years now, the thing that Amy said about a person with a cross on their back getting their identity from that made total sense.
I have had talks with him, and he refers to himself as third person...like, "insert name here" is the man for this and that and the other. He is in danger for being taken out of his job and insists that his priorities are greater than the priorities that are being asked of him by his boss, and thinks that "if they only knew" about the cross he is carrying, they would understand.
I've worked in a competitive business environ for 20 years before going into this education thing, and the only times (just 2 in all those years) I have seen the combo of a martyr and a narcissist...they have told the same story. It goes like this..."I work harder than anyone else and make my way after you all go home..I look out for others, and I get hit for doing things my way and doing the work of others. I've been told priorities from above, but they aren't mine, and I KNOW BETTER".
Now, that's all well and good if the effort is working, but his department has a leader right under him that is flaking out in a huge way and not taking care of her stuff...and he refuses to deal with it. The numbers on which our success is based are all down, and his response is if he just did it his way it would work. But he IS doing it his way, against the advice of the people who supervise him, and it's not working.
That's the narcissist..."just let me do it my way and don't bang me for it, but when I do it my way and don't get results...well, people should know better". I call BS on that...in every other venue I have worked, results are what matter. If you don't get results, then refine or rework, but figure it out instead of stamping feet and saying that people are not coming around because they don't get it. It's not their job to "get it", it's our job to make what we offer meaningful to their lives or they wouldn't be at our facility taking classes to better their lives.
On the lighter side, I'm taking a road trip the next few days with my 16 year old kid and his best friend, and it's going to be fun. Mom and two teenagers driving to Cincinnati to see a tennis tourney and to Cleveland to see the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and all the lighted bridges there. And on the way there and back, spending time with our favorite people in STL. I'm thinking it's a great break from the heat and a time that in the next few years the kids will be too grown up to even think about!
So, now we are in the dog days of summer and I hope you all enjoy it as much as we do in a road trip to just visit fun things and find pool time :)
Ang at August 1, 2008 12:20 AM
Side comment--I just wanted to say what a great definition Amy gave of a healthy relationship "Two people who have more fun and are better together than alone." That is a great way to figure out if you should be dating/seeing/get married to a particular person!! I used to use the 50% rule--if your satisfaction level is above, OK to proceed--if below, get the heck out!!
kathyglo at August 1, 2008 3:56 AM
"Of course, probably a big part of your self-image is how different you are from ordinary men. For starters, most guys just have to match their belt and shoes. You've got an additional element to coordinate -- that 9-foot wooden cross you strap on your back every morning. But, hey, it's for a noble cause"
Damn! That's spot on!
I was with an abusive GF who wasn't afraid to slap my face in public for not holding hands, but I didn't leave her because she was an emotional wreck and I didn't want to be one of 'those' guys (and by that I mean an a$$hole). I thought I was better than them and a caring guy, even if it did drive me into depression (which I can see happening with the LW).
But I was young and foolish, and really I was kidding myself into thinking I was doing the right thing. My gut instinct was to get out, but I felt by staying I was being a better man. When I did finally wake up and leave her I was an emotional wreck too, with low self esteem and zero confidence.
If I had my time again I'd have dumped the psycho's sorry ass the first time she lashed out. I wasn't put on this earth to be a carer for the first looney who comes along, and neither was the LW. Sticking by a women you hardly know who doesn't seem to reciprocate your affection doesn't make you a martyr it makes you a putz!
I know 'cos I was one, but NEVER again!
Mark at August 1, 2008 4:36 AM
I was with a girl who had some pretty serious issues buried. They started to leak to the surface when her mum became ill with cancer and pretty much took her over when her mum died.
I'd been dating her for just over two years before the real problems started surfacing and I finally ended it at just past 3 1/2 years when I FINALLY got the message that I wasn't actually helping her (or myself obviously) by staying with her.
It can be way too easy to fall into the caregiver/healer/punchbag (emotional & physical) role and sometimes very difficult to get yourself out of it once you're there.
I don't think anyone is ready to be helped until they can see, and admit to themselves, that they have a problem. She'd been to counselors whilst at school and Uni and she once boasted, towards the end, that she knew exactly how to manipulate them.
I nearly lost my job because of her issues, and she did lose hers. Alcohol and drug abuse, self-harming and lashing out at me were just some of the lowlights of that particular chapter in her/our life.
Playing Sir Galahad's fine for fairy tales, but in real life you'll invariably end up dragon-fodder.
James at August 1, 2008 6:12 AM
Ang, like I said I dealt with a parent with severe narcissitic personality disorder and had to educate myself about the topic. What I found out was that we all have a touch of narcissism and it can be healthy. It's what gives us our self esteem, and of course a healthy amount of that is a good thing. It's when things get out of control that you get the person whose self esteem is out of control and not supported by facts, who uses associations to regulate and increase her self esteem (it feels a lot like a parasite), who excessively criticises and belittles perceived bad behavior (which can be as benign as not agreeing with something she said), who views others' acheivements as her own, and whose moral compass is skewed, relative, and dependent upon how an action effects her own self image. The victim of a narcissist tends to protect herself by avoiding conflict, because there is no winning an argument with this person. Avoiding conflict means figuring out how to please this person and give it to her at all costs.
Your co-worker, is he someone who will not take your criticism? Does he dislike you and belittle you to others because of your criticism? He sounds like a martyr for sure.
I guessed that this letter writer may have been parented by a narcissist because he feels the need to gain this crazy chick's approval at all costs. The child of an N learns how to play that game and doesn't even figure out it's a game until they recognize the bottom line.
Laurie at August 1, 2008 10:00 AM
"Crazy chicks? From a guys perspective, it's a cost/benefit ratio. Crazy chicks are also crazy in bed."
I hear that's an urban myth. Guys, report in on your experiences. Any guys I've talked to said they were expecting the 'crazy sex', and were very disappointed!
Chrissy at August 1, 2008 10:01 AM
I hear that's an urban myth. Guys, report in on your experiences. Any guys I've talked to said they were expecting the 'crazy sex', and were very disappointed!
Well, the LW's experience sounds disappointing: "Sex was okay at first, but we hadn't been together many times before she fell apart... we're still seeing each other, but without physical intimacy".
To Laurie's concise description of narcissists, I'd add that they have to have everything about them be outsized, extreme, the --iest of whatever they are. So their pain is the worst, their tiniest bon mot is brilliant, their smallest effort makes them a martyr, etc. They also lack empathy, because they see everyone as an extension of themselves. They're also not afraid to use manipulation to get what they want, thus Mark's experience, described above:
I was with an abusive GF who wasn't afraid to slap my face in public for not holding hands, but I didn't leave her because she was an emotional wreck and I didn't want to be one of 'those' guys (and by that I mean an a$$hole). I thought I was better than them and a caring guy, even if it did drive me into depression.
Classic manipulation on her part, Mark--she convinced you that if you cared about your own well being at all, then you were being an asshole--because her pain was by definition worse than your pain. It's classic for narcissists to convince people that they're suffering (and actually, they are--narcissists are almost never happy, because they can never get enough to satisfy them). Tina Turner mentioned that Ike Turner did a pretty similar thing to what your GF did--early in their relationship, he told her about all the women who'd hurt him, wronged him, made him suffer. And she was determined to never be like those awful women. She'd never hurt Ike. And if she did something he didn't like, or threaten to leave, he'd bring up those women, and how she was being like them, which would make her stop, because she was suddenly being like something she'd sworn never to be. To a narcissist, people other than themselves acting on their own behalf in a healthy way is itself narcissistic. Which is dizzying.
Quizzical at August 1, 2008 12:37 PM
Ang ~~ Sounds like a fun trip -- have a great time! We'll keep the website warm for you.
Pussnboots at August 2, 2008 12:30 PM
Kind of late on the subject, but wanted to check back in on this..
Laurie, I really appreciate your comments on narcissism. Quizzical also had some SO in point points that relate. In the situation I described, there what I think of as a freeloader and a cross bearer. The descriptions on narcissism perfectly describes the freeloader and the description of a person with a narcissistic parent describes the cross bearer that I was thinking was the narcissist in the equation. So I appreciate the input greatly. It helps open another view of the situation, and it fits way mo' better than the one I was working with!
And thanks, Pussnboots for the good wishes on the trip. It was fun! Details for some other time when it may be relevant, but in short note...road trip with two 16 year old kids keeps you young, the tennis tournament was a presentation in skill that works better in person than on tv, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is worth the visit. Awesome place. Never thought I would visit Cleveland even once, but now I know I will go again.
Just wanted to come back in and let you know your input was not only insightful and fun to read, but also helpful. Thanks.
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