Meating People
I recently ended a relationship, and over the past few weekends I've hit the singles bars. Typically, I do okay with women -- just not in this scene. Each time, I managed to get a few numbers, but any woman I call never calls back. Why do women give me their number if they don't want me to call?
--28 And Frustrated
Going out to a singles bar and asking a bunch of women for their phone numbers should prove a very productive experience -- if you're a movie star or a budding telemarketer: "Hey...how about a date Friday night, or if that doesn't work for you, can I interest you in an adjustable rate mortgage or a solar-powered grapefruit knife?"
Except maybe for Lamaze class or a family reunion, all the times and places you're supposed to pick up women -- Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights at hot bars and clubs - are the worst times and places to do it. There's no such thing as casual conversation, no pretending you just happened by to pick up a USB cable for Granny's computer. Women know exactly why you're there, and even though most of them are there to meet men, they're very much on guard -- leading men, especially drunk men on the make, to come at them with all the subtlety of big game hunting. In fact, you might as well go in in a safari jacket and pith helmet and try to spear one from behind.
As for the women who gave you their number but never called back, you're probably wondering why they didn't just blow you off on the spot: "Sorry, but I'm married, I'm gay, and I don't have a phone." Yes, that would've been easier -- easier for you. Women generally try to avoid confrontation, so they'll give you a phone number, only it's the number of the city dump. Or maybe they've had six gin and tonics, and they're too drunk to come up with a fake number, so they give you their real one, and deal with it later: "I'll change my number, I'll move...or maybe just turn off the lights and lay on the floor."
These same women might've picked up the phone -- had they met you at a newsstand, the motor vehicles bureau, or in some other less competitive environment. Sure, there might be another single guy or two around, but most of the patrons will be there for a newspaper or a new license, not because they haven't had sex since the first George Bush was president. It turns out there's such a thing as too much choice, and the bar/club scene is rife with it. Studies show that when people have lots of options they tend to choose poorly and regret their choice afterward. Or maybe they don't choose at all, thanks to "anticipated regret," which psych professor Barry Schwartz writes in The Paradox of Choice produces "not just dissatisfaction but paralysis." So, some girl you chatted up is sitting there pondering, "Should I or shouldn't I?" And maybe the easiest answer is just not to answer the phone.
Now, bars aren't totally off-limits for meeting women. Just go on off-nights like Monday or Tuesday, right after work, when you have plausible deniability (you're just there to unwind, really you are). The vibe's relaxed, there's no shouting over loud music, and you can strike up a casual conversation and actually connect with a woman -- showing her what a great guy you are without holding her hair back while she throws up in the alley.
Better yet: skip the bars, get a life. Pick a hobby or take classes, do something that that sincerely interests you, and also interests members of the fairer sex. Concentrate on the hobby, stop being desperate, and sooner or later you'll meet someone interesting...
bradley13 at August 12, 2008 11:13 PM
I was in the letter writer's position for years and I think this is very good advice.
Men and women are typically irrational in very different, but predictable ways. Some people seem to have an instinctive understanding of how the opposite sex works, but for those of us who don't, like the LW and me, the science is very enlightening.
bradley13's advice is also good, but you have to keep in mind that rejection is easier to take from some stranger you're not likely to see again rather than from someone you see every day or week. The relative anonymity and large numbers of prospects are the great parts about pickup bars, dating web sites, etc. However, if you're not successful with getting dates from these types of venues, then you just have to accept the consequences of the venues where you can be successful.
Finding activities that had decent ratios of women was always a problem for me, too. I'd rather have a root canal than attend Oprah's book of the month club. Language classes were one thing that worked out. Mixed doubles tennis also worked, but mixed mens/womens sports come with stressful emotional dynamics. Hopefully the LW will find a couple of good activities.
Shawn at August 13, 2008 3:01 AM
Bradley's advice is good. Do the things you honestly like and voila you're apt to meet someone with at least one of the same interests as you and odds are you probably have other things in common too. Not the case with pickup joints. Or at least not as much.
And I'm very wary of guys in bars. They're good for a dance and maybe a game of pool and some conversation but I don't see myself going home with them or giving them my number. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not looking for Mr. Goodbar. (For those of you who haven't seen the movie -- spoiler alert -- one of her pickups in bars winds up killing her.) A very real possibility we gals have to keep in mind, no matter how charming the fellow seems.
Besides, guys too should be more careful. How many have gotten rolled by women they brought home? And I'm sure there must be a few that have had chicks they've picked up go psycho on them -- and not in a good way.
No, to each their own and I'm not judging (you pick your risks and I'll pick mine) but overall the bar pickup is not a wise choice for selecting a mate -- especially if you're hoping for a long-term relationship.
T's Grammy at August 13, 2008 4:16 AM
"Going out to a singles bar and asking a bunch of women for their phone numbers should prove a very productive experience..."
Hey, it works for John "Father of the Year" Edwards. And he's the best darn guy in the world.
Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg at August 13, 2008 4:59 AM
I am just so relieved that I'm not in that whole bar scene anymore - except for a night out once in a while with the girls, usually to an open jam or something. I'll get up and jam on a few numbers (I sing and play guitar) but after a couple 3 glasses of wine, I'm ready to roll on home. I've tried getting BF to come out with us (he's a "retired" drummer) but he just has no interest in going to bars anymore. Concerts, yes, we saw John Fogerty last week, but bars bore him. And me too; it's the same ol' same ol'. People trying to pick each other up, fights, druggies, drunkards, who needs it? Although sometimes it can get pretty funny. I was out with a couple of girlfriends one night, and we were watching this guy hitting on this cute girl, and she says to him, all coy, "are you trying to pick me up?" and he says, "well, YEAH" and she says, "well, don't DO that! You don't know where I've been!" Cracked us up! YMMV o_O
Flynne at August 13, 2008 5:41 AM
"but after a couple 3 glasses of wine"
Flynne, you're priceless. I have my couple 3 glasses of wine at home myself. I have enough interesting friends that introduce me to new people (I have a no-knock, open fridge policy at my house, so my single childless friends are always moseying in for a free home cooked meal).
I like it that way - you get a little background first and if it turns out to be a dud you can give your friend shit for a poor referal ;)
dena at August 13, 2008 6:46 AM
Yep, bradley13's advice worked for me. I wasn't even trying to look for a man. I was new in town and wanted to make friends and I really like to play pool. When I joined a league (at a billiards parlor, not a bar), I made friends with my future husband. We didn't even date for about a year after meeting. Very happy ever since.
Having an interest is more than just a great way to find that special someone, though; it's also one of the things that keeps your interest in the relationship. After 5 great years, whenever we go anywhere, we still look for the best places in town to play pool.
Elise Davies at August 13, 2008 7:00 AM
My wife is going through the phase of reliving her 20 (midlife crisis at 30 crap) so we end up at a few bars. Most nights are amusing as I see guys trying the same shit I tried in my early 20 and scratch my head. Wow, how did I not see how stupid I looked. Occasionally I get some belligerent drunk trying to pick up my wife and won't take no for an answer. Those are annoying so I know damn well why women are on guard at these places. I don't actually see anyone going home with anyone else unless they met as a group of friends at the bar, the bar would then be circumstantial.
My one question is this. If you are going to a singles bar your not looking for Mr. Ms. Right but a quick fling, right? You don't want to go home with a stranger as they maybe dangerous, so why go to singles bars?
vlad at August 13, 2008 7:12 AM
Some suggestions on where to meet women that always worked for me.
College classes (except womens studies)
Game night at the local bar (don't get shnockered)
Horseback riding lessons (my favorite)
vlad at August 13, 2008 7:16 AM
Because prostitution is illegal, and beer's cheaper anyway.
brian at August 13, 2008 7:21 AM
I've noticed a lot of guys that have girlfriends go to bars to try to get laid for the night (or as brian put it 'prostitution for beer'). Obviously singe guys do it too. It's probably a better idea in the long run to actually pay a prostitute, because at least she won't get pregnant and get lots of money out of you down the road. (prostitution isn't illegal in Canada)
Chrissy at August 13, 2008 7:33 AM
You don't want to go home with a stranger as they maybe dangerous, so why go to singles bars?
And there's always Craigslist Casual Encounters, as described by these ladies: http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/sleeping_around_craigslist/Content?oid=772546&page=1
Quizzical at August 13, 2008 7:35 AM
Another great place to meet women is by volunteering at your local animal shelter or humane society. It is all women. In the 3 years that I have helped at the HS, there have been less than 5 single men who have volunteered with the dog walkers.
Amy K. at August 13, 2008 9:07 AM
What everyone else said. I had pretty much given up on meeting someone anytime soon, and decided the hell with it, I'm just going to go out and have fun and not feel all sad that I'm alone. So I tried out a swing dance class and met a gorgeous sexy man who has been my boyfriend for the past year and . . . bonus! . . . is a great dancer.
Anathema at August 13, 2008 9:23 AM
Yes, you all absolutely have the right idea. After I became a widow I thought I'd try something I'd always wanted to learn: swing dancing. Like Anathema I met a sweet, handsome man, who turned out to be my soulmate and my husband. After thirteen wonderful years together he died of prostate cancer. (Guys, DON'T skip your annual PSA tests!)
Well, I continued to attend the Sunday afternoon concerts given by our local jazz club, as we had been doing together, and ended up meeting and marrying my present husband, who also loves jazz. He doesn't dance, but nobody's perfect.
I hadn't planned on marrying again, but this fellow was too good to pass up. We have a great lifestyle going, and he's a really good man. Our love doesn't have the intensity that my last marriage had (on either side), but how many soulmates does one find in a lifetime?
Anyway, just wanted to illustrate how pursuing your own interests can result in finding compatible friends, lovers, partners, spouses, or whatever.
Pussnboots at August 13, 2008 12:57 PM
I had great luck with Match.com, as I'm a big introvert and find it difficult to meet new people. i dated a lot of people who weren't quite right before I hit on the solution that worked for me: I was very specific in what I wanted, and I was very clear about who I am. You can burn out quickly on those sites unless you are willing to narrow the field significantly, but now I'm in a great relationship and we plan to move in together next month.
MonicaP at August 13, 2008 1:16 PM
"A very real possibility we gals have to keep in mind, no matter how charming the fellow seems"
I'm willing to bet that your odds of being struck by lightning are higher. When did humans become so terrified of humans?
Prostitution is fine if you're mainly looking for sex but not if you actually want a relationship.
I don't really have any advice to offer on meeting people because I suck at it. I'm a 'computer nerd'.
David J at August 13, 2008 2:51 PM
I don't consider myself an expert on dating. I have probably had as many dates as marriages, and my present wife, my second, and I have been married for 33 years.
But, in the 80's, I was a public activist on Fathers rights, and supplied no-fee counseling to an estimated 1600+ divorced men/fathers.
Women would come up to me and ask how to find a husband. I remember one woman, chubby, plain, and in her 40's, twice divorced. Sour looking. I sure didn't want her! If I got stuck on the proverbial desert island with her, it would take a bit of starvation before I'd be interested.
I asked her what sort of man she was looking for. She said, probably an educated business man, who liked the theater, which I interpreted as Mr. Big Bux! With her looks and personality, she will be lucky to get laid by a janitor, to be frank.
I asked where she had been looking. She said, "Bars!"
Great Scott!
I suggested volunteering at the Community Theater and forgetting she was looking for a man. I told her if she really looked enthusiastic at her work, even if it is only making sets, a man might see her, and be attracted to her enthusiasm for the theater.
Another woman, a country girl with a happy personality but not gorgeous, I suggested she join the Steam Locomotive club, get a pair of grubby coveralls, and volunteer to clean the boiler. The right kind of guy might see her covered with soot, but smiling, and say, "Wow! That is my kind of woman."
I certainly agree, even with little personal experience, that going to the local meat market is not the way to find a serious mate. Blecchhh!!
irlandes at August 13, 2008 3:16 PM
Guys, I'm pretty sure, have to be actively looking for girls or it simply won't happen. And that makes it very hard to ask someone out when you're doing things you enjoy.
For example, since it's been mentioned a bit, let's say you really enjoy dancing. So you go out dancing, and take classes. And...you start seeing most of the same people when you go out dancing.
It's far far harder to ignore rejection when you know that the people there will be the same people there next week, and the week after. If some girl rejects you, chances are she's familiar to, if not friends with, everyone else there. If you make an ass of yourself because you misread some signals...oops, now everyone there thinks you're an ass.
Contrast that with a singles bar. You can plausibly argue that you're never going to see anyone there again, and if you do, it's fairly easy to ignore them and their friends. You're not forced to interact with them. If you screw up, maybe your chances for that night are ruined, but come back in a week and no one will care.
Enzax at August 13, 2008 3:53 PM
Where I live (the home of Ragbrai), the cycling community seems to be the best way to meet people. And cycling is what I love most!
A bunch of my fellow bikers were doing the Hy-Vee triathlon last year, or doing course support for it. I don't swim, so that would be course support for me, thanks.
Afterwards, the crowd met at a pub downtown, and I see this buddy of mine talking to an adorable curly-haired guy with a race number. I decided that would be a good time to say hello to that buddy of mine, and myself and the curly-haired guy have been together since about ten minutes after that.
Pirate Jo at August 13, 2008 5:30 PM
I know rejection is hard to take, but you have to rise above it and realize that all that happened here is that someone just said no. Maybe the next one will say yes -- nothing ventured, nothing gained.
In my limited experience with hobby clubs, the members are discussing and enjoying the hobby, not who asked whom out and got turned down. And there could be any number of reasons for the rejection which have nothing to do with you.
So just act friendly and confident (even if you're not), make sure you look presentable and well groomed, and show genuine interest in others rather than yourself, and you'll be fine. The good thing about seeing the same group of people on a regular basis and working with them on interesting projects is that it gives shy people the opportunity to come out of their shells as they become more familiar with their fellow members.
Even if you don't find love in a hobby club or volunteer situation, you will gain valuable experience in interacting with the opposite sex, which will come in handy when a dating opportunity does come along.
Pussnboots at August 13, 2008 9:50 PM
I suppose it's also what kind of personality you have. I always found "official" dates stressful, and they rarely led anywhere useful. Whereas when you meet someone in a class or pursuing a hobby the pace is much slower: you get acquainted automatically, if the chemistry is good you become friendly, maybe have a cup of coffee - no dating involved. There really isn't any rejection, unless you make an ass of yourself - it's a gradual process and if the woman (or man) isn't interested beyond that cup of coffee, this will become apparent.
It's not an approach for the desperate or for those looking for quick sex. It's an approach that yields fun and friends and may or may not lead to a relationship. Live your life, be happy, and see what comes. That can be hard for 20-somethings to understand...
bradley13 at August 14, 2008 1:09 AM
David J, it's more like what we've been discussing in the other treads -- a degree of self-protection. No, just going out to bars is not likely to get you killed. Letting strange men pick you up in them rather increases the odds and I'm willing to bet occurs more often than getting struck by lightening though you are still more likely to get raped than murdered. I think only the absolute idiot would go out that door and into a fellow's car if she isn't "willing". And I really don't fault for a guy for thinking she is. She's certainly sending the message just by being willing to go home with him. However, if he finds out she was a naive idiot who screams no when he gets her up to his place and he doesn't stop, it's still rape.
Vlad, hence why they quickly grew boring. But in my 20's, disco was the rage and I went out to dance and to socialize. It was a cardinal rule with me and every one of my girlfriends (my "easy" sister who had one baby at 16 and another 18 and who's reputation -- not unearned -- preceded her excepted) to not enter a bar alone so we went out with at least one friend (and the understanding that they didn't ditch us for a guy at the bar though it was okay to meet someone, just not go home with them and leave your friend alone) so we socialized with each other and, yes, thought about meeting someone -- though I've never known anyone who met their s.o. at a bar. And we went to dance and meet other people. That's what the discos were about.
T's Hawk at August 14, 2008 5:44 AM
I live in "Margaritaville", so bars are about the only venue for people to meet each other. I joined a lot of online dating sites and only dated guys that lived at least an hour away from here. I didn't expect to meet anyone locally, as this is such a party atmosphere.
Then, my girlfriend, invited me to a memorial benefit for a dead diver (young guy, sad story). I didn't know the deceased, and I don't dive, so it was the last place I thought I'd meet someone, but that's where I met my boyfriend. He's in the dive business, and we had mutual friends who introduced us.
I'm so glad to be out of the Match.com scene. It was interesting, and I met a lot of nice guys (and some weirdos), but in retrospect, I don't know what I was thinking dating people who lived so far away. LDRs are hard.
One thing that surprised me, though, is that guys would want to IM. That was new for me at the time, so I agreed in the beginning. But I found that most of them had webcams and at a certain point in the chat, they'd start talking dirty - and a few even exposed themselves to me. No kidding!
I was shocked that there were so many guys spending their days in front of the computer trying to "seduce" women like that. It's certainly a different age.
I actually agreed to a date with one guy who did that. He was really nice. A fireman. But it was very strange to have already seen his "equipment" before our first date. :-)
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 7:47 AM
I'm willing to bet that your odds of being struck by lightning are higher. When did humans become so terrified of humans?
This is not the first time I've come across a guy who doesn't get why women take such precautions for their safety. It's like we're living on different planets, here! Virtually every woman I know has been menaced in some way by a guy in some situation, from being followed home, to getting a wrestling match with a date, to stalking, even if they've never actually been the victim of a crime they'd prosecute. I've never gone to the police about anything, yet if I think about it, I've had a number of unpleasant experiences that were technically crimes, even though they'd never be prosecuted, or just creepy and unpleasant but not crimes--enough to make one wary. One of the first guys I dated from an on-line dating site, a "nice guy" from a "nice family" who has social connections to my family, it turned out, ended up stalking me after I declined to pursue our relationship past a few casual dates. It didn't get bad enough that I bothered telling the police, though friends advised me to. No, he wasn't a Mr. Goodbar, but such situations are to be guarded against, just the same. Other examples: I was the victim of a "frotteur" when I was 14--young enough to not realize what he was doing, except that it seemed wrong, and I ended up running away. And I was menaced by a gang of guys while I was traveling. Fortunately for me they ended up leaving me alone. But it was very scary, and experiences like these make a gal wary, so we have to keep these things in mind. They're certainly a hell of a lot more common than being hit by lightning!
Quizzical at August 14, 2008 7:52 AM
Having a cup of coffee is dating...at least in my world. Sure, it's a fairly low-key date, but the reason I'm doing it is to find out if I want to take things further, not just to be friendly.
The rest of my argument...ask a guy hobby clubs haven't been good places to meet potential dates. The pressure to not screw up is way too high, since I'm going to have to see and interact with the girl again. Not only that, but with the hobby clubs I've gone to, everyone there is friends with one another. They give each other rides, hang out after the thing is over, and basically talk about whatever. This means that you risk coming off as creepy/just out to pick up girls if you aren't careful.
Can you ask someone out for a coffee date the next day? Yes...but you'd best have a pretext for asking, something that says "No, I'm definitely not trying to pick you up, I just wanted to have coffee and talk about ___"
Enzax at August 14, 2008 7:55 AM
I actually agreed to a date with one guy who did that. He was really nice. A fireman. But it was very strange to have already seen his "equipment" before our first date. :-)
Let that be a lesson to all men who want to email pix of their equipment to prospective dates: only do it if your hose is long enough to fight fires!
Quizzical at August 14, 2008 7:55 AM
It was a long hose. lol Sadly, I never got to see it in person. We only had the one date, and I didn't think we were the best match....but he did, at the end of the evening, pick me up and carry me to my car, like he was rescuing me from a burning building. That was one of the high points of my dating life.
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 8:00 AM
I agree with you, Quizzical. It's a lot more common than a lightning strike. I had a close call with one guy who basically tried to tear my clothes off in the parking lot. I kicked him in the nuts, made it to my car and sped out of there.
Another guy (an attorney) bizzarly stuck his hand up my skirt as he was kissing me goodnight - like he was trying to give me a rectal exam (anal fixation?), capping what had been, up to that point, a nice first date.
I stopped wearing skirts after that. lol
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 8:08 AM
"This is not the first time I've come across a guy who doesn't get why women take such precautions for their safety."
*Sigh* ... way to COMPLETELY make a whole lot of wrong assumptions about what I said, thanks. If you read carefully, you will see that I was referring specifically to the chances of being murdered by a guy you've met in a bar. That's all. I'm well aware that women have to take precautions for their safety, and that there are many other risks for them and reasons to do so. I'm not an idiot, thanks. But honestly, the odds of a man being murdered by someone they 'meet in a bar' are higher than a woman being murdered by someone they meet in a bar. Really. Yes.
David J at August 14, 2008 8:27 AM
Yes, you're right about that. Now that you mention it, I personally have had three such encounters. The first was when I was 10 or so, some guy exposed himself to me in our neighborhood park and asked me to touch it. I didn't, of course, but didn't know enough to be alarmed by it. The second and third times were attempted rapes, both by people I knew but not dates. Neither succeeded -- in the first case I yelled my bloody head off and scared him away, and in the second I pleaded to go to the bathroom and when he let me up I ran out the door and into the street.
So yes, we do have to be wary because there are a lot of creeps out there. But when it comes to meeting someone in a bar -- that is, a dating bar, not the local gathering place where everybody knows your name, I would tend to assume that anybody I meet there is a player, or a player wannabe, and as such is not attractive to a woman who is seeking a serious relationship. If she's just looking for a one-night stand and doesn't mind risking diseases, pregnancy, S&M, or robbery or worse, then a bar is just fine, I guess.
This is not a blanket indictment of bars and those who frequent them, just an explanation of why we ladies cannot be as trusting of strangers as we'd like to be, and why we are leery of men we meet in bars. But I can't imagine why a woman would go to a bar and exchange phone numbers with guys she intends never to see again, unless she's just looking to get her ego stroked (but nothing else!).
Pussnboots at August 14, 2008 8:31 AM
Sorry for misunderstanding, David J. It had sounded to me like you were speaking more generally.
But honestly, the odds of a man being murdered by someone they 'meet in a bar' are higher than a woman being murdered by someone they meet in a bar. Really. Yes.
True.
Quizzical at August 14, 2008 8:32 AM
Just for the record, I started writing my post (just above) long before David J's remark about the likelihood of being murdered by someone met in a bar. The first statement in my post makes it appear that I agree with him -- but I don't necessarily, unless he can back that up with statistics. What I was agreing with was Quizical's comment that it's a dangerous world out there for a single chick.
Pussnboots at August 14, 2008 8:41 AM
Sorry for the misspellings, I don't type very fast and I was rushing. I usually proofread.
Pussnboots at August 14, 2008 8:44 AM
"Sorry for misunderstanding, David J. It had sounded to me like you were speaking more generally."
Definitely not. I know there are a LOT of weirdos and pervs and stalkers and even rapists out there, almost every woman I know who is even somewhat attractive or social has had problems with them at some point or another. But the odds of any one of those freaks being a murderer is incredibly miniscule. People have come to equate e.g. "stalker" with "murderer", if that was the case women would be being murdered like flies left right and center. How many of you know a woman who was murdered by someone they picked up in a bar? I don't know anyone. I read crime news a LOT and from what I've read, this kind of thing represents a tiny proportion of murders.
Men are at greater risk for murder than women (because men are more violent and generally violent against other men), and bars are particularly popular settings for male on male violence. You might have somebody try feel you up at a bar, a man is probably about as likely to have somebody physically beat the hell out of him at a bar (it certainly is common in the area I live).
David J at August 14, 2008 9:41 AM
I think it could be tricky to get stats for bars specifically, but averages according to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm:
"Male offender/Male victim 65.3%
Male offender/Female victim 22.7%
Female offender/Male victim 9.6%
Female offender/Female victim 2.4%
Both male and female offenders are more likely to target male victims than female victims."
David J at August 14, 2008 9:45 AM
"The first was when I was 10 or so, some guy exposed himself to me in our neighborhood park and asked me to touch it."
Ew, gross :/
I have heard of happily married couples who met in bars, but I doubt it's the norm. Most people go there to fool around. I find it a bit odd that women would keep placing themselves at risk, giving their phone numbers etc. out to sleazy strangers in bars --- but those kinds of women seem to invite it on themselves, and usually purposely pick the sleazier stronger scarier-looking guys. It wouldn't be as risky if women picked the decent less threatening looking men, but instead these are exactly the ones they ignore. I think in those kinds of situations where it's more "primal" - you're not exactly hooking up with someone for their personality - women are just hardwired to try attach to the 'alpha', the guy who is stronger than the 'others', because that is the one most likely to give protection from all the freaks and weirdos in that crowd of 'others'. She always has to take that risk that he won't harm her. Necessarily he will be much stronger than her.
David J at August 14, 2008 9:54 AM
"How many of you know a woman who was murdered by someone they picked up in a bar?"
(On that note, even the example given was a movie instead of a real incident.)
David J at August 14, 2008 9:57 AM
http://www.vpc.org/studies/dv4one.htm
"Compared to a man, a woman is far more likely to be killed by her spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member than by a stranger. More than 11 times as many females were murdered by a male they knew (1,521 victims) than were killed by male strangers (133 victims) in single victim/single offender incidents in 1999"
...
"The overwhelming majority of homicides among females by male offenders in single victim/single offender incidents in 1999 were not related to any other felony crime. Most often, females were killed by males in the course of an argument—usually with a firearm."
David J at August 14, 2008 10:00 AM
David J, I think the point is that women don't want "stalkers" or rapists either. I agree with you about male-on-male bar violence, but you're wrong about how women would be safer if we just knew how to pick "decent less threatening looking men". Both men, that I mentioned above were not big, burly alpha males.
The guy who tried to rape me in the parking lot was a non-scary looking pilot for a major airline, and the rectally-fixated attorney was...well, a weird, but average-looking, kind of geeky attorney.
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 10:01 AM
"It's a lot more common than a lightning strike. I had a close call with one guy who basically tried to tear my clothes off in the parking lot."
The odds that this incident meant you were on the way to becoming a murder victim are pretty tiny.
Aha ... http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/15840_lightning.html ... "lightning strikes about 600 Americans a year" ... compare to at most 133 female homicide victims by strangers across the top 15 states for ALL circumstances, and probably only a tiny percentage of that would be women who got picked up in a bar.
David J at August 14, 2008 10:08 AM
Ohhh, of course! These bar murder statistics would include male-on-male action, something that never even occurred to me! I was looking at the situation purely in the male/female context, so I doubted that more women murdered men than men murdered women as a result of meeting in a bar.
Sorry, my bad!
Pussnboots at August 14, 2008 10:08 AM
"David J, I think the point is that women don't want "stalkers" or rapists either."
Sorry, I know, I realise, I'm not disagreeing --- I didn't mean for this part of the discussion to blow up quite as much as it has :/ --- if you look at the original context, I was initially trying to respond ONLY to the statement that being (specifically) murdered by the guy you picked up was "a very real possibility" to be worried about. Perhaps "murder AND all other forms of nuisance" was implied, but that's not what was said.
David J at August 14, 2008 10:12 AM
"The odds that this incident meant you were on the way to becoming a murder victim are pretty tiny".
Well, I didn't want to stick around to find out. Even with such low statistics, nobody wants to become one.
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 10:13 AM
Ok, understood. Let's try to keep this light. I'd really like a light thread, for a change. Anybody else with me on this?
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 10:16 AM
Yes, light thread!! Let's talk about funny things that have happened in these situations.
Darn, I wish I could think of one. My life is boring. Oh, wait, I have one. I lived in France for a year, and my friends and I discovered that French men have a secret martial art--they can undo bras and unzip pants at the speed of light! Just get cornered by one at a party and whammo! It was pretty funny. But not creepy--more good natured and something to laugh about with friends later.
Quizzical at August 14, 2008 11:10 AM
When I was a teen, I met this Italian at the beach. He didn't speak any English, but he wrote "Amore" in the sand. I was so naive that I thought that was his name! So, I kept saying, "Amore...Amore". He thought we'd fallen madly in love, and he wrote me letters for months afterwards...from Italy, in Italian, which I couldn't read. I still have them. I always think one day, when I'm older and need a distraction, I'll have them translated so I can read all about my hot, Italian romance. :-)
lovelysoul at August 14, 2008 11:37 AM
I went on a date once, a lifetime ago. I made the mistake of holding the door for her at the theater. She yelled "I have arms, you know!".
That was the end of THAT date.
Lesson learned: the rabid feminist freshmen don't announce their rabidness - they're out for blood.
Another lesson learned: don't date college freshmen. They're all nuts!
brian at August 14, 2008 8:21 PM
Another lesson yet to be learned: Don't poison every thread with anti-feminist rantings!
Pussnboots at August 14, 2008 10:02 PM
lighten up, puss.
It wasn't an anti-feminist rant.
The point was that you can find a crazy person anywhere. It doesn't take much effort.
Another lesson learned from college: never date the psych majors. They're nuts too.
brian at August 15, 2008 4:26 AM
First: WTF?? Why the hell did I sign T's Hawk instead of T's Grammy yesterday? I know I was very tired and had some vague half-lingering dreams I can't quite remember when I came on-line yesterday and I always come to the column before the blog but still... What the hell, must have been a hawk in one of those dreams or something. Hawk??!! That's strange. OK, I'll try to wake up first from now on.
David J, I wasn't implying that guys weren't under any danger or that murder was common place (more as others have said that other crimes are more common place). I picked a bad movie to reference. Please get over it and stop beating a dead horse.
No, I don't (didn't?) know a woman that was murdered in a bar but I do know a guy (not a friend, read on) who murdered, see below.
I thought the topic brought up was interesting even if it is rather heavy. Even not counting my abusive father or husband and my sick fuck of a brother, yeah, I've had incidents.
Two neighbor brothers shoved me in the bushes one day when I was running down to the lake (you turned off our street onto their, off theirs and the lake was right there), said they were going to rape me and to this day I believe it. Fortunately, an old man came out on his porch and yelled you boys what are you doing there (the empty brush was next to his house across from theirs and he'd probably had to deal with the two little assholes before). They turned their heads and loosed their grip on me to snarl at him mind your business old man and I ran like the freaking blazes out of there!!! Never stopped to thank the old man, not sure he saw me before I ran like the wind past him or what he thought when he did but that is one old man I am forever grateful to! Never, ever took that short cut again. Neither did my sisters.
One of those brothers grew up (in our 20's, after I had moved to the city) to pick up a chick in a bar, take her to the even larger field that was across the street from my old home and chop her up with an axe. Far as I know, his brother is still out there and has gotten away with any shit he's pulled but I'm certain as hell, while I don't know if he went quite as far as his brother, I'm positive he's at least raped and assaulted. Just saying. Not every crime makes it to the DOJ's website.
I also had another boy try to drown me in that lake (tough neighborhood, we also had a prowler there) because I got in a fight with his sister and had the immaturity to call her a lesbo. Siblings flew up the hill and fetch my Ma who came down with our vicious dog (who's rep was known and who was rather large) and rescued me.
In the projects, it kind of goes without saying but that was more a race thing than a gender. We'd get ganged up on for being white and only saying who my sister was would keep me from many a beating. (They never doubted the little blonde hair girl screaming when cornered that the teenage blonde girl who was crazy enough to go up side your head with metal skates was her sister -- or at least, blonde girls being the exception not the norm -- didn't chance it.)
I did have one boy there when he heard me go on about cats (I was 7 and I doubt he was more than a year or two older) before I knew the slang, ask me to his house to see his pussy (so I doubt he entirely knew the slang either). I went home and promptly asked my mother if I could go to Mark's house to see his pussy and got mad at her when she said no way, you are never going to Mark's house. I knew it wasn't the race thing (she was a bigot) because he was Indian, uh, I mean Native American, not black but actually thought it was because he was in the slums. People in the projects back then looked down on people in the slums. My big sister explained it to me the next morning. I was appalled for maybe a day. Mark and I were still friends at school; in fact, he and another kid who I couldn't stand fought over me in the playground. I'm still amused in hindsight. He was my first bad boy (I wished I could say my last.)
The reason I called my brother sick was because he used to sneak into the room I shared with my three little sisters (it was the huge master bedroom of an old farm house so that isn't as horrid as it sounds) and tell us stories until we went to sleep. That is until my mother found a lot of sick fantasies he'd written down about putting us to sleep with stories then molesting us. None of us will ever know if he ever had the guts. If he did, we never woke up. But our door was shut and locked against him after that.
I think that's it for the creepy experiences (horror story that I married aside; that's a whole other soap opera). It's quite enough. But my own and other experiences -- Amy's bit about walking where she shouldn't have included -- and virtually every woman I know has at least one "incident" and I've also read articles that claim most women do, I'm wondering, any women here never have anything happen to them?
Christ, I'd like to think someone's escaped.
T's Grammy at August 15, 2008 5:56 AM
I thought we were trying for light, here?
Quizzical at August 15, 2008 7:42 AM
That seemed like a light story you'd tell your kids one day while you're out fishing to me. Just a fun little jaunt into T's Grammy's world...:P
Enjax at August 15, 2008 7:48 AM
Sorry, Brian, I guess I jumped the gun. I was afraid this thread was going to veer off into a mishmash of hateful nonsense the way some others have recently, and I accused you unjustly. Lightening up now.
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 9:25 AM
T's Grammy ~~ I thought that might be you! When I saw T's Hawk I wondered if you had changed your moniker again. Anyway, you did have some truly scary experiences. It's a shame that innocent children have to grow up so fast in order to survive.
It's great that you didn't become a bigot or a man-hater in view of all this mistreatment.
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 9:40 AM
Jeff at August 15, 2008 10:08 AM
I have a terrible habit of forgetting a '/'.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 10:09 AM
I agree with Amy about single's bars. But I have to wonder, then: why do people go to singles bars, anyway?
Jeff at August 15, 2008 10:11 AM
"How's about we don't poison threads with feminist rants. That's mostly what we wee here."
If you don't like it here you're more than welcome to leave.
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 10:58 AM
Make that "what we see here", not "wee"! Freudian slip??
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 11:01 AM
So are you, pussy.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 11:12 AM
Um. I didn't write the quote you cited. You must have learned citation protocol in a Women's Studies department.
Typical.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 11:16 AM
"How's about we don't poison threads with feminist rants. That's mostly what you see here." (Jeff)
Okay, that's the exact quote -- I was one word off. If you're going to be that picky, you should learn to punctuate; a question is supposed to be followed by a question mark. Maybe if you make it to fourth grade you'll find out for yourself.
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 1:01 PM
Yes, the one word that allowed you make that clever "Freudian slip." Hmmm. Making things up to appear clever, and then claiming it was only a "wee" error. Sounds like Feminism!
Because of the patriarchy.
Aw. Lighten up. Don't let that patriarchal punctuation bother you. Conversational writing should be liberating you. Using a period instead of a question mark is like burning a bra.
No, it's a period. It's more like tossing tampons at those awful man-haters who invented punctuation.
You. Hating on my sentences. You must really hate my fragments, especially those phallocentric participial phrases.
Because of the patriarchy.
Oh man. That insult was so brilliant, I haven't a retort. I'm gonna' turn into a sensitive man and cry. Eh. I think I'll fuck my submissive girlfriend again, instead.
Because of the patriarchy.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 1:21 PM
Jeff, you're being an asshole again.
brian at August 15, 2008 1:53 PM
Why am I an asshole, but pussy isn't a cunt?
I'm giving insult for insult, and I didn't even start it.
Seriously, why?
Jeff at August 15, 2008 1:59 PM
Maybe this is why people go to singles bars.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 2:25 PM
No, but you pissed in the well.
brian at August 15, 2008 2:26 PM
Should I let people insult me without reply?
Women get away with this shit all the time. Insult a man, and then act like a fucking victim when her ass gets toasted.
Tell me, Brian, how should I have handled pussy's insults?
Jeff at August 15, 2008 2:30 PM
Jeff - you could have started with not making that first post.
You don't walk into a room, smack someone in the head with a mallet, and then get angry when they punch back.
You started it this time.
Cut the shit.
brian at August 15, 2008 2:53 PM
OK. Pussy wrote, "Another lesson yet to be learned: Don't poison every thread with anti-feminist rantings!" and then I wrote, "How's about we don't poison threads with feminist rants."
Seems like you're full of shit, Brian.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 2:58 PM
Not at all. While her overreaction was unnecessary, it was at least expectable given my commentary.
She said nothing that could conceivably prompt your response.
And she at least had the decency to apologize for her overreaction. Something you've yet to do.
brian at August 15, 2008 3:08 PM
Quizzical: "I thought we were trying for light, here?" Hope springs eternal.
"But honestly, the odds of a man being murdered by someone they 'meet in a bar' are higher than a woman being murdered by someone they meet in a bar. Really. Yes."
So true! For a woman if you want to get yourself actually murdered your best bets are prostitution, or getting into a relationship. If a woman is killed the police always look at the husband/boyfriend, and lately, with these "honour" killings, brother/father. Statistically your safer if you just don't get close to anyone. Sad, innit?
Happy bar story: I have a lucky friend who met her husband in a bar. She was chaperoning a drunk girlfriend and had a policy of never dating guys she met in bars. He was lovestruck the moment he saw her. And he campaigned all evening, and all the following week, to get her to go out with him. Married 13 years.
And Jeff's right about the "beer goggles" thing - wasn't there just study published?
catspajamas at August 15, 2008 3:15 PM
Yeah, he kinda linked to it.
brian at August 15, 2008 3:17 PM
Sorry, yes he did. I'm playing catch-up and its been a looooong day.
Someone way back at the beginning mentioned Meetup.com. I signed on there a couple of weeks ago for a walking group. We're meeting next week - 34 people so far! Please let some of them be single guys ...
catspajamas at August 15, 2008 3:21 PM
Sure she did. She wrote, "Maybe if you make it to fourth grade you'll find out for yourself." That was after she wrote, "If you don't like it here you're more than welcome to leave." Then she misquoted me to insult my penile endowment. She rants about punctuation, even though she had previously written "Sorry for the misspellings, I don't type very fast and I was rushing."
Calling me stupid, insulting my endowment, ranting about minor punctuation like it's the end of the world. Those are insults.
By your own standards, "you don't walk into a room, smack someone in the head with a mallet, and then get angry when they punch back."
Funny you don't apply that standard to me. I guess if you held to your own standards, you'd have to admit you're full of shit. Which, in this case, you are.
Jeff at August 15, 2008 3:29 PM
I've had mixed results with Meetup.com here in Dallas. I'm in a couple of book clubs and one of them is pretty good. I found all my Parkour buddies on Meetup.com too, although they were initially dubious about a 43 year old working out with them. Heh.
I have met some women too. Have fun!
Jeff at August 15, 2008 3:32 PM
I'm in a lot of Meetup groups in Toronto, but I'm just in them to socialize, not to meet guys to date. I'm having a lot of fun, especially in the outdoor activity groups. We go on a lot of day road trips to different conservation areas and tourist areas. Tomorrow I'm going on a 30,000 islands boat cruise near Midland in the Great Lakes. It's a good mix of males and females, so if people are looking to meet a date, it's possible!
Chrissy at August 15, 2008 3:59 PM
Jeff and Chrissy: Thanks, I'm encouraged, either way.
The Midland trip sounds great (I grew up in Barrie).
catspajamas at August 15, 2008 4:08 PM
Brian ~~ Thanks for sticking up for me.
Jeff ~~ Every one of my insults was a response to one of YOUR insults. What, you can dish it out but you can't take it?
As for the "wee" reference, it truly was a typo, and when I said it could be a Freudian slip I meant it in the sense of "wee wee", or pee. I wouldn't dream of insulting your endowment, which I'm sure is magnificent.
Now can we please drop the war of words and let the thread continue on its course?
Pussnboots at August 15, 2008 4:50 PM
The bar scene can be a whole lot of fun...if you approach it with the right skills and the right attitude.
Specifically, you need to be good at meeting strangers. This is called the cold approach.
The cold approach comes naturally to about 2% of the population...everyone else has to work on it so dont feel bad.
And when I mean work...I mean WORK. Most likely everything your doing from the moment you open your mouth is outright wrong or deeply suboptimal.
The cold approach, and its companion skills, once learned, will TRANSFORM your life. Personally, professionally, and otherwise. I cannot recommend it highly enough. The quality of life you lead will improve enormously.
The cold approach is NOT about how to make inoffensive small talk with just enough charm/confidence to get a phone number.
The cold approach is about being the life of the party...absolute dominance of the group while being sensitive to others needs. If whoever you meet doesn't want you to stick around because your so awesome then your doing some thing wrong.
peter at August 16, 2008 1:58 AM
Tit for tat, Jeff. Seems you're more than a mite (pun intended) defensive over the word wee. Over senstive for some reason?
T's Grammy at August 16, 2008 11:16 AM
I agree with you peter...but how do you learn if you're not naturally skilled?
Just going out and doing it won't work, since you need feedback, and people don't generally give useful feedback on what you did right/wrong. They won't tell you something like "Great approach and opening, but then you hovered over me"
Enjax at August 16, 2008 12:49 PM
Your lying. There's a written record, bitch.
Also, I'm justifying my right to insult you back, not running form it. Stupid woman.
Yeah, and yeah.
And T, I'm the Tat not the tit. It makes a difference.
Jeff at August 16, 2008 10:35 PM
Heh. Maybe I'm doing it all wrong, then. I find that there are too many available women. I just repel the ones I don't like, feminists and other species of man-haters. The women I do like seem to enjoy the loss of competition.
I'm just saying.
Jeff at August 16, 2008 10:46 PM
Jeff ~~ Yes, there is a written record. If you check it you will see that you started it. The first thing you said to me was that feminist rants are mostly what you see here. I responded that if you didn't like it here you could leave. Yes, it sounded harsh, but that's hardly the first time you've insulted all of us. But to put it more politely, if this is such a hotbed of feminism, what ARE you doing here???
Pussnboots at August 17, 2008 8:21 AM
And where are these "feminist rants" that are "mostly" what you see here, anyway?
Quizzical at August 17, 2008 8:50 AM
And now for something completely different.
Howdy!
Have you read "Sex for One: The Joy of Selfloving" by Dr. Betty Dodson?
I'm considering getting a copy but due to limited funds thought I'd get input before I do.
I guess what I'm asking is: In your opinion, how does it compare to all the favourable letters and reviews she has on bettydodson.com?
Scotty! at August 18, 2008 12:31 AM
I don't know, haven't read it, but I'm a huge fan of her and her work.
And they have them used here for $4.71 and up. And there's a link to the paperback at that link for only $2.45. Of course, there's shipping, too...adding $3.99, I think, if you buy it used off Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517886073?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0517886073
You could also get it out of the library, but I think it might be kind of gross...along the lines of licking the hotel remote.
Sorry! Got to go to bed and I couldn't think of any other image.
Amy Alkon at August 18, 2008 12:43 AM
Greeting, Amy. I just came over from Dr. Helen's site, where she linked to your post about the "progressive" losers who tried to flood you with spam, but didn't comment there because I couldn't really find anything to add that hadn't been said 5 times before.
On this subject, I would agree with some others here that many people would benefit in their opportunities to meet people by joining some sort of group who share interests. This would allow some shy people to get to know others without the pressure that trying to date someone they have never really met before, though obviously there are some who feel that that would make them more nervous.
WayneB at August 18, 2008 10:24 AM
Howdy, Amy!
Thank you for the info and the lick - I mean link! - to amazon.com which I looked at - not something I usually do due to concerns for security. But glad I did. Got to see what they had and how much.
On the thread: I don't recall seeing any mention of religion or church. But being an atheist by upbringing, I found that kind of interesting because I would think a church, your own personal religion, would be the safest place - and one of least pressure - to find someone suitable, or am I too far out of it?
Scotty! at August 18, 2008 12:57 PM
So, why are the women there? And, regarding this partial sentence:
"...or maybe just turn off the lights and lay on the floor."
I think you meant "and lie on the floor", unless your usage was a euphemism for something apparently decent women who go to bars on Fridays don't want to do.
map at August 18, 2008 2:29 PM
Scotty ~~ Yes, you'd think that church activities would be an obvious place to meet people, wouldn't you? For a churchgoer, that is. The thing is, I don't think many of us here are, so we wouldn't think to suggest it.
Pussnboots at August 18, 2008 4:45 PM
Someone's advice above to just do what you normally would do, i.e. not looking for love, is the best advice. Back in January 1971 (I was 19) my buddy and I went to the Whiskey A-Go-G0 to see the Beach Boys play. We were in the cheap section in the balcony, and during a break a very attractive girl in her mid-20s comes up to us and says, "You guys seem like the healthiest people here, so I thought I'd come over and talk to you." She had come with one of the BB's supporting musicians and my friend ended up taking her home and went out with her for awhile. We were there for the music. Cut to January 1996 and Luna Park in L.A. My friend and I go there to see a band called the Mermen. We're sitting talking at the furthest table from the stage during a band change, and an attractive woman walks up to us and say, "You two look like the most interesting guys here so I thought I'd come over and talk to you." My friend knew the Whiskey story, and I told the woman and we talked for awhile until her friends arrived. Deja Vu all over again. Do what you normally do and things do happen. Even our intrepid advice goddess got her Big Mac in the same type of normality, as I'm friends with her boyfriend and I know how they met at an Apple store. I still remember Gregg telling me how he was unshaven, felt grubby and like a slob, and of course he bumps into this great woman when he's at his worst. Be yourself and do what you do.
Jay J. Hector at August 19, 2008 3:13 PM
Awww, thanks, Jay, and thanks for dropping by.
I thought he was darling when I met him. He was wearing a really longsleeved velour polo-type shirt with patches of velour missing, kind of like a teddy bear with the mange, and smart-boy glasses, and he was very sweet, and smart.
He did this very important thing, too: he asked me out. Rare in L.A. Too many guys just stare at you nervously from across the room, then eventually leave.
Amy Alkon at August 19, 2008 3:16 PM
What, girls don't have telepathy yet?? Finally; now I know what I've been doing wrong all these years.
Scott at August 19, 2008 8:05 PM
I remember reading a study that found religous groups where good for finding dates, but the marriages had one of the highest divorce rates. It was explained as the individuals both tended to be religous yet there beliefs tended to be enough different that over time they really conflicted.
I have noticed one interesting thing recently. Most all the long term couples that I know, the woman was actually the one to make the move even though they present things as the man was the one to make the move. Ego thing I guess.
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