You Kant Get It All In One Place
The guy I'm dating is a high school graduate with a manual labor job. I have a master's and a corporate career, and I'll eventually make several times his salary. He's a great guy, and does stuff like spontaneously buying me flowers at the farmers market and calling just to say goodnight. We talk sports, which I love, and he shares his work gossip, but I can't talk to him the way I talk to my egghead friends. I use five-dollar words (my natural speech after years of schooling), and I can tell he sometimes has no idea what I just said. My friends seem put off by him and question whether we've got enough in common. I'm more concerned with how he feels around them (going silent, fumbling words, getting grumpy). Is it reasonable to give up this sweet, attentive man for somebody married to his work, but who can match wits with anyone, anytime?
--Opposites Attract
Opposites might attract, but then they start talking. You say tomayto, he says tomahto, and you throw in a side order of antidisestablishmentarianism. (Man is from Mars, Woman is from Encyclopedia Britannica.)
It's amazing how you can be in a man's arms and over his head at the very same time. In a way, this is a case of terrible timing. If you'd both been around during the Oklahoma Land Rush, he would've been a much wiser choice of boyfriend than some pointyhead who'd just read the collected works of Charles Darwin. But here you are in 2008, probably all cozy in some starter condo, feeling the constant grate of his intellectual incompatibility, especially at those smart people clambakes you're always attending.
Perhaps out of concern that you're in an impaired state -- huffing from the hormonal spray can and dizzy from the sudden flurry of romantic goods and services -- the jury of your peers has taken a break from rereading Newton in the original Latin to weigh in on your relationship. Meanwhile, your boyfriend's pleading his case the best he can. No, he might not know the meaning of nihilistic, but couldya make do with two dozen peach roses?
While people will tell you money can't buy happiness, if you make lots more than he does, you might end up feeling pretty miserable. There was this theory that women only wanted rich, powerful men because they couldn't get money or power themselves. Studies by evolutionary psychologist David Buss and others actually show that rich, successful women tend to go for even richer, more successful men. Most hilariously, when researchers interviewed high-powered feminist leaders in the late '70s, these women nattered on about how the right man for them would be some "very rich" or "brilliant" or "genius" guy who'd leave large tips after buying them lavish dinners.
Yours isn't an either/or scenario -- cold, distant Rhodes Scholar or cuddly, attentive road worker. While there's no such thing as "the one," with attention to your needs and patience in the search process, you could find "the .89" or even "the .966." Strip away the farmers market flowers and the nighty-night calls, and decide whether what's left is enough. Do you need a guy who can hold his own with your friends? Do you get enough smartypants talk to come home to "How 'bout them Mets?" As a woman who uses five-dollar words, can you be satisfied with a man who only has $2.75 or so to play around with? Most importantly, do you admire him? And will you -- when he stretches his hand skyward and promises you the stars...without the faintest idea that he's actually offering you a passing satellite?
Unless this woman is dating a total retard I guessing he can figure out the meaning of her $5 words from the context of the conversation.
AS to his going silent around her friends?
Well I used to go out with this girl, her friends hated me - probably because I didn't kiss their asses to their satisfaction - but they treated me like crap, so I ignored them and refused to engage them.
Odds are her friends consider this guy not "good enough" and have made their feelings known, and his response is to not engage them.
And why does this woman feel her only choices are a guy with time for her who doesn't meet her standards or a guy who does but will never have time for her?
And what is with her bizzare co dependancy? Is she as involved in picking out her friends lovers as they are hers?
Grow a spine lady, either tell your friends to back off or dump the guy - but if you do don't bother pretending the reason isn't as petty as his status. Be proud of who you are, even if its shallow, us guys arent afraid to admit it - why should you be?
lujlp at September 30, 2008 9:00 PM
I've read it a dozen times now. This is, quite possibly, the funniest sentence I've ever read. Someone please call an ambulance. I'm dying here.
Jeff at September 30, 2008 10:03 PM
Aww, thanks. We try.
Amy Alkon at September 30, 2008 11:04 PM
For what it's worth: If I weren't so happy with my "just a tradesman", I'd ask for this guy's number. I also have a higher education and earn more than my guy, but so what? He used to be an accomplished rock climber who supported his habit by laying bricks. I should add that he's an avid reader and very smart, despite his lack of framed diplomas. Now, approaching 50, his shoulder no longer allows either of his former activities, so he went back to school, got a bachelor's in business admin, and is now a project manager for large industrial construction projects. He's set to surpass me in earnings this year or next. And all the great boyfriend behavior? Check. He's supportive, loving, and loyal, romantic, and even a good dancer. Wouldn't trade him for anything in the world. And I say this as someone who, for some nutty reason, dated a string of physics PhDs and was married to a rocket scientist (really). So I think this gal should do a sister a favor by putting this underappreciated gem back on the market to be snapped up by someone who knows a good thing when she sees it.
Marie L at September 30, 2008 11:36 PM
Are relationships like this really doomed? Amy never says so outright, but implies it pretty strongly.
I expect this woman is in her 20s. There is still a lot of viciousness at that age: climbing the corporate ladder with spikes, over the bodies of the competition. This does diminish with time. With maturity, people are more able to accept others for who they are.
But she's not there yet, and it would (will?) take a lot of self-confidence to ignore the "friends" (or possible, change the friends) until maturity kicks in. Not to mention a lot of strength of character on her boyfriend's part.
bradley13 at September 30, 2008 11:45 PM
I don't think there's an answer "out there." This one is too close to call. It comes down to making a decision: will you decide to stick with this man or not? I think you can decide to make it work, or not.
You may need to get your intellectual stim somewhere else. But that's not very different from having a hobby that you like and he doesn't. A relationship should be big enough to allow separate interests. Perhaps he'll come along when you're in a public debate, just to support you. He doesn't have to understand all the details to do that! And you can cheer him from the sidelines when he's playing football or whatever.
Re your friends: again, it's your choice. It sounds like they make him feel small. You can tell them, this is my man; he's part of the package now. Treat him kindly if you want to stay my friend. He comes first.
Norman at October 1, 2008 3:14 AM
What is interesting to me is how the writer projects her career 20 years into the future and sees herself as VP of some international conglomerate but projects his career 20 into the future and sees him as still working the 5-11 shift at the local Jiffy Lube.
It has been my experience that most people don't advance as far in the corporate world as they think they will and that advanced plumbers, auto mechanics, HVAC techs, etc. do better financially than most of those with corporate jobs.
One of my best friends used to work as a phone answerer in call centers. He didn't know how to do much else, only had a high school degree and didn't have many opportunities open to him. His girlfriend, now wife, was getting her doctorate. He would read her school papers and comment that he didn't even understand the topic she was writing about much less her thesis. I have a degree in engineering I had no clue either. She is that smart. But she wasn't cursed with pretentiousness of bigworditis so they could communicate OK.
I took it upon myself to teach him enough about computers so that he could pass the Microsoft Certification tests. As he began to learn he started helping with the computers around his office. He learned enough to get a tech-support job at a development company. He learned enough there to get a job as a developer at another company. He is now one of the best computer programmers I know and matches if not exceeds his doctor (not MD) wife's salary (and mine too actually.) All with no high school diploma and without knowing the words coterie, obsequious, or unctuous.
Maybe the guys has no drive and will still be shoveling horse manure when he is 60 but I don't think his vocabulary or his way of not talking to her friends should be used to determine that.
Dale at October 1, 2008 4:11 AM
The LW doesn't mention if she's attracted to him or not. My guess is that, if she's writing Amy, she's not. When you're head-over-heels for someone, there IS no doubt--and the last thing on your mind is writing an advice columnist.
So, I guess whether or not she "should" be attracted to him/happy with him doesn't matter. She is or she isn't.
Personally, I am attracted to guys who are smarter than I am. Doesn't have to be book smart, necessarily--street smarts work fine, but I need to feel like he has something to teach me.
sofar at October 1, 2008 7:39 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/you-kant-get-it.html#comment-1594405">comment from sofarDitto. And while I see the value in people who do many things -- I can tell you the name of the new busboy at the Rose Cafe, and even the name of the school where he's been studying English -- the guy who's my boyfriend has to be very smart, literate, rational, and an independent thinker to fit into my life. Among other things (like that he's a very good, kind and decent person). And I have to admire him. Very important. My boyfriend is self-made, created his job as the researcher for a crime novelist, and is an entrepreneurial thinker in general. And he's funny and wise and he knows things -- history, politics, culture. If I go somewhere with him, he can hold his own in any discussion (although he's a little low on talk of women's shoes...he calls Manolo Blahnik's Menachem Begin's, etc., usually to make me laugh), and he'll say something smart and interesting that will impress me. And even if we're not around other people. And I can always turn to him when I need to know the right thing to do, the decent thing to do, the wise thing to do. And that's why he's my boyfriend. Impresses the hell out of me.
Amy Alkon at October 1, 2008 8:02 AM
The LW's last sentence is all we need to know about her and this relationship. She is asking 'permission' to dump this guy.
IMO, when someone prefaces a question with the modifer "Is it reasonable," they are oftentimes looking for validation for decision that's already been made.
wheatley at October 1, 2008 8:06 AM
Yeah, I think wheatley got this one right - LW is looking to let go without feeling guilty about it. Sad. If she does let him go, I have a feeling she'll regret it for a long while.
Amy, my man is like yours, except that he still has pretty much the same job he's had for 25 years. Big company, but he's survived a lot of lay offs and cutbacks, because he's good at what he does. And he's a good man. (Just lately he's taken to reading and gotten quite voracious about it, which is good; we've been sharing a lot of books, and I've turned him on to Elmore. Loves him! He even reads in his tree stand. o_O)
Flynne at October 1, 2008 8:25 AM
It's very romantic to think "love conquers all" and that differences in education, social caste, race, religion, ethnicity etc don't matter... but they do.
If you have enough other stuff in common, then it doesn't matter, because you can compensate for slight differences. But if there isn't enough other stuff there...
The fact is these two people come from totally different cultures. Women are always made to feel guilty when it is a problem for them, so often will go for very unsuitable guys. I've known lots of people, and I've been in the boat, who will date someone in spite of the fact that they are are unemployed, aggressive, incompatable, ____insert undesirable trait___ , and won't break up because they feel too guilty. NOT saying the guy in question is a loser... AM saying they don't sound like a good match.
Maturity? Maturity doesn't mean sticking with someone who you don't mesh with. Maturity means finding someone suitable. That someone is not a good match for you does not make you a better person, or him a better person. It just means you do not belong together.
Don't discount the friends. They are usually better at seeing what is wrong in a relationship than the person in it. Also, couples need to be able to function in each others' social/familial circles, especially the latter. Not saying they need to become best friends with each others' friends, but they do need to get along and put on a good face. I mean, do you expect her to give up all her friends and relatives after she settles down? Or that he will never attend functions with her? Not realistic. If he's there sulking all night at her office dinner, that's not good for her. If she's sulking all day at -his- company baseball game, that is no good for him either. Not to mention family events.
Sounds like the cultural differences here are too great. Move on.
Nicole at October 1, 2008 8:28 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/you-kant-get-it.html#comment-1594425">comment from NicoleIt's very romantic to think "love conquers all" and that differences in education, social caste, race, religion, ethnicity etc don't matter... but they do
Absolutely. And that was the basis for my answer to this question. People want to demonize a girl like this for not wanting Joe Lunchbox, but the fact is, he doesn't meet her needs for a partner. He wouldn't meet mine, either.
Amy Alkon at October 1, 2008 9:14 AM
Nicole is spot on.
Women are taught to be too nice. Dating is not about validating someone else's life choices, it's not about that person being a 'nice guy', it's about not hating them, neutral is not ok. You have to really respect and adore someone. I know that for me that person has to be cleverer than me, that's just what makes me happy. Like, I'm not attracted to women. They may be sweet, nice, funny, sexy and interesting and I like them very much, but not sexually. It doesn't mean I think women are worth less than men, or are horrible - just not my type.
Really, women, in 2008, we have to be able to just stand up without guilt and say 'he's not my type'. It's ok. We're not being uppity, we're not being mean. It is best for everyone. Life is too short to string people along who could be dating someone who genuinely appreciates them.
Marie L - your judgmental nature is disgusting. Lets say that worst case scenario, she leaves the boyfriend and realizes that she doen't need the intellectual. Maybe even that he was an amazing guy and she lost out... And? You LEARN something. You take that knowledge into your future dating and you now KNOW more about yourself and how you can be happy. The alternative is to sit chafing and biting your tongue in a relationship you don't want. No one should stay in a relationship out of fear. And when someone reaches out to leave an unfulfilled relationship (with no ring and no kids), people should do one of two things - be supportive or shut the hell up. Yes we've all met shallow people who've ruined good relationship potential but we've all met many more people who just don't suit. I mean, how many people do most people date before they get married? Aren't they shallow for not just 'making it work' with the first nice guy to come along?
Adults understand that relationships are not about worth, they are about compatibility. Women are trained to be nice and not complain. If a man says, I want to marry an intelligent and ambitious women, everyone applauds. If a woman says, I want to marry an intelligent and ambitious man, she's a materialistic bitch who 'doesn't know what she's missing' and will 'probably regret it one day' when she 'ends up alone', especially if she wants to work and be equals with this man rather than just breed and make cookies.
Bottom line - if you wanna help society, donate to charity. Date who you LIKE
Bonnie at October 1, 2008 10:28 AM
LW seems to equate using big words with expressing big ideas. I don't see the papallel. For example, John Mellencamp's lyrics are "simple" but express very complex human emotions and "life stuff." Sure, you want to be with someone you don't feel is stupid, but I don't think vocabulary or eloquence are the only measure of intelligence.
Monica at October 1, 2008 10:53 AM
Of course "papallel" should have been "parallel."
I also agree with Bonnie that if for WHATEVER reason you don't find someone compatible, you don't have to stay with them.
Monica at October 1, 2008 10:55 AM
To be fair to Mary L, she's right, too. While this man may not be the one for the LW, he may be the perfect guy (or 90% gal), for some other gal. So he SHOULD be released back on the market!
Nicole Forgot the K last Time at October 1, 2008 1:34 PM
Yes, LW has already made her decision. And no one should ever stay with a person that isn't "it" for them. That's so condescending, like you're really telling them "you're not good enough for me, but I pity you and will stay with you because no one else would ever want you". And yes, she reeks of high school "is he cool enough for my friends" desperation. That's sad, in someone supposedly so highly educated. Doesn't mean she should stay with him. I just doubt she's much of a catch herself.
He sounds like my type. And most tradesmen I know move up rather quickly to some really sick pay. I mean, $200 just to come LOOK at a leaky pipe after 5pm? I wish I could ever have that earning power. And most of them always know that work is not life, life is life. I find that important. For me, vocabulary isn't as important and a man knowing I am more important-and our kids are more important, and heck taking a walk in the park is more important-than sitting at a desk doing something the world would turn just fine without.
momof3 at October 1, 2008 7:29 PM
The LW may not be as smart as she thinks she is. I've noticed that the smartest people, not only can use fancy words but can discern when not to use them. But clearly the real issue is that she wants to break up with him. I agree with Amy and other commenters that if she doesn't respect him, no amount of roses in the world will make up for that. And the deficit in vocab is probably her oversimplifying something indefinable that she finds lacking in him.
Lily at October 1, 2008 10:14 PM
Lily, you said everything I wanted to say.
Point being, class isn't the problem...the problem is that she doesn't respect him.
LW is scared, so she should bail. End of story, probably the end of story for her, because until she looks into what she wants and can give to a relationship, she should just ask for a resume.
Relationships happen over time...no one has the whole answer from day one, but you do have to go into it with a respect for each other and the flexibility to grow and respect when things change.
We all hear that relationships take work, and I agree, but I would like to re-phrase that. Relationships take involvement. It's not work if you care for someone and need to find a common ground. That is being involved and yes, working but working for a way to make it grow.
Next week, my husband and I (both people who in younger years said we would never be married to anyone because we were both so hard to get along with) will celebrate 25 years of marriage, and he will be on a motorcycle trip miles away from me...but we agreed that is how we have lived our lives all these years...doing what we love and having common ground to approach it.
We work together on things we know can work, and hand off the other things to each other. We don't always like each other, but we love each other after all these years and we have found a way to make not only our household work, but have found a way to raise a wonderful kid who...not surprising...has a great sense of humor, but is also very responsible in what he does and tells us about it - because our common ground is in taking care of our responsibilities and communicating with each other even when it's not pretty.
Bottom line...take care of your people and be honest with each other.
Probably clear from all the replies that LW is not being honest, so the "manual labor job" guy should thank his lucky stars when she decides to dump him.
Ang at October 3, 2008 1:33 AM
Here's the part of the poster's letter that got to me: " I use five-dollar words (my natural speech after years of schooling), and I can tell he sometimes has no idea what I just said."
My husband and I have two Ph. D.s between us, but we don't go around talking to each other like we just swallowed a dictionary. For that matter, we are perfectly capable of having everyday conversations with our friends and our children without using words like "post-structuralism" and "hegemony". Is the poster just showing off her vocabulary to her boyfriend because she is immensely insecure and needs to feel better than him? Why does she use words he doesn't understand? Is her conversation an attempt at communicating with her partner, or simply one-upmanship ?
Marie at October 3, 2008 10:09 AM
I agree, only insecure recent college graduates are into the big word trip. They probably got into that habit because they were always trying to impress their professors, and now they just can't stop.
Chrissy at October 3, 2008 12:19 PM
I agree too, except that I don't think it's limited to recent college grads. I recently heard from an old high-school friend for the first time in decades, and was really enjoying the email conversation until he started this pattern -- saying "proximal attributes" when he meant "immediate details", and "dizygotic" when he meant "fraternal" (twins). Granted, I understood him, but still. And if I have my arithmetic right, he's in his mid-40s.
The Other Lily at October 3, 2008 3:55 PM
Amy, what were you referring to when you casually alluded to a study in which "researchers interviewed high-powered feminist leaders in the late '70s"? Could you share more information or perhaps a link?
Jake at October 4, 2008 5:48 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/you-kant-get-it.html#comment-1595326">comment from JakeIt's from Bruce J. Ellis' "The Evolution of Sexual Attraction: Evaluative Mechanisms in Women," from The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary Psychology and the Generation of Culture, edited by Barkow, Cosmides and Tooby.
The reference is from p. 273, the section on Structural Powerlessness, (Fowler, cited in Freedman, 1979). The Freedman reference is to his 1979 book, Human Sociobiology: A Holistic Approach.
Betcher glad you asked, huh?!
Amy Alkon at October 5, 2008 12:21 AM
bless it, I only doubted you for a heartbeat.
jake at October 5, 2008 5:07 PM
People who use $10 words as a crutch irk me, because it reveals a limited ability to communicate, which is probably the opposite of what they're trying to convey. If you are truly good at communication, you tailor your words to your audience, not toss out the SAT words just to feel good about yourself.
MonicaP at October 6, 2008 1:31 PM
Interesting response, Amy. One place I'd fault you though is for not distinguishing between "intelligence" and being "book smart". Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes they don't.
The best example I can think of is Stephane Dion, but neither you nor your readers probably know who that is. So let me use Jimmy Carter instead. Many people say that he is a smart man with a big IQ. Perhaps. But at the same time, no honest person can say that he was a good president. In fact, many have argued that he was one of the worst ever.
Another way to look at is the subject matter that her egghead friends mostly discuss. Is it 18th Century poetry? Is it microbiology? Is it tribal practices in Western Africa? If the boyfriend doesn't know much or even anything about the subjects that they mostly discuss, does this mean that he has a low intelligence? I think not.
Robert W. at October 6, 2008 8:37 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/09/you-kant-get-it.html#comment-1595766">comment from Robert W.One place I'd fault you though is for not distinguishing between "intelligence" and being "book smart".
It wasn't the issue here. The girl is compatible with a boyfriend who's an intellectual. Whether he's life smart isn't going to make much difference.
There's a temptation here is to say things *should* be different. That she *should* be more "open-minded," etc. She's not, and therefore he's not right for her.
Amy Alkon at October 7, 2008 12:38 AM
K, if she wants to give up this "sweet attentive man" I'll take him off her hands. His high-school diploma and mine will get along fine.
I agree with MonicaP - I've always thought that one of the hallmarks of intelligence, not to mention simple politeness, was the ability to subtly adjust one's conversational style and vocabulary to suit whoever you're talking to, without being condescending. The LW and her "egghead" friends apparently can't or won't make the effort.
Seriously, this guy should be writing to Amy asking what to do about his elitist snob of a girlfriend.
catspajamas at October 7, 2008 8:15 PM
The letter writer needs to spend more time evaluating her priorities, not nit-picking her poor boyfriend's perceived "handicaps."
If her head is too far up her oh-so-intelligent ass, that she can't see what a great heart this guy has, then she doesn't deserve to be with someone like him.
By all means, carry on with your elitist lifestyle, and settle down with some fat, balding, selfish old bastard, and lead a loveless marriage.
Food for thought: If your "friends" dislike your boyfriend because he's "uneducated" (aka - below the 250,000 a year income bracket) what would they think of you if you had no money? Friends indeed...
I've never hated a letter-writer as much as I hate this phony bitch.
Jaime at October 8, 2008 12:01 AM
Probably he gets silent and grumpy because he knows your (snobbish?) friends look down on him as inferior. Nobody enjoys talking or is able to open up easily with people who look down on them.
David J at October 17, 2008 2:56 AM
Hmmm, let's see . . . should I leave this guy who treates me well for a smarter guy who doesn't treat me well?
Congratulations on your education. You;ve come a long way, baby . . .
nemesis at October 31, 2008 6:22 AM
If a woman says, I want to marry an intelligent and ambitious man, she's a materialistic bitch who 'doesn't know what she's missing' and will 'probably regret it one day' when she 'ends up alone', especially if she wants to work and be equals with this man rather than just breed and make cookies. (Amy)
OUCH! Where is the respect for women who choose to raise their kids at home and NOT work? I have a Masters degree and had the option to work and chose instead to stay at home and spend my day with my kids, including home schooling them. That's just insulting my choice. And who says I'm not his equal? I can kick his ass in Jeopardy any day of the week. And I could potentially outearn him... but he respects me for what I'm doing now.
Peace
Crunchygirl at November 7, 2008 2:38 AM
Because someone has more credit hours under their belt does not make them more intelligent - not in the book smart sense or the life smart sens. It just means they have more credit hours under their belt.
Case in point - I have some college, but no degree. I spent the better part of my adult life in the military - active duty and guard. I have had jobs working in restaurants, waiting on tables, I have had jobs working as a laborer for a construction company, I had a job as a customer service rep. I now have a job as the sole Project Controls Cost Specialist in one office of an engineering firm. That is just a fancy title for a person who does a plethora of duties including accounting, budgeting and scheduling. This position geneally requires at least a bachelors. I lucked out. Turns out - I'm pretty friggin' good at it too.
Awhile back I went to some training. The training was held at our home office and people from all four of our offices went. Within the first five minutes of arriving - I met a woman who was a scheduler (nothing else - no accounting, no budgeting - she just scheduled and that is her job title and this becomes important in a minute) from another office. In that five minutes she learned I had NO DEGREE and I learned she had two bachelors and a masters and was working on another masters. So? We dive into our training (which was solely on sheduling) and since I have never scheudled - ever - I was looking forward to this training. The training was actually software training on an upgrade to the scheduling software we use. Mz. I-got-a-masters-degree could not keep up and I had to continually show her what we were doing. This is a woman with all these degrees, who has been "scheduling" for years to my never and I was helping her. No - intelligent does not come in the form of a framed something hanging on the wall.
Molly B at November 19, 2008 1:49 PM
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