Stalking On Air
I asked a guy out and we went salsa dancing last night. Afterward, he gave me a quick kiss goodbye on the lips. Does the fact that it was on the lips mean he likes me and wants a second date? Would he have kissed me there if he didn't really like me? I'd like to see him again, but know he's dating other women. I texted him today, saying I had fun, and hoped we'd stay in touch. I haven't heard from him yet, but this is his sleep time, as he gets home from work around 8 a.m. What should I do if I don't hear from him? I'm thinking of showing up Tuesday at salsa when I know he goes.
--Antsy
"Sex and the City" by any other name is just as off-putting to men; yes, even "Sex and the Prehistoric Countryside," which pretty much describes your approach to seduction: a woman pursuing a man with all the subtlety of a hungry velociraptor after a small woodland animal.
People often write me to say things "should" be different; for example, that men should get to perch cross-legged on barstools batting their eyelashes while women buy them drinks and ask them deep questions like "Are you from Tennessee? Because you're the only 10 I see!" Well, there's what "should be" and what works. In the Stone Age, when we evolved the psychology we're still working off today (upgrading our hard-wiring can take thousands of generations), sex was a low-cost endeavor for a guy. He burned a few calories, gave up a little sperm, and was on his way. For a woman, it could mean nine months dragging herself across the savanna on swollen ankles until she ended up with a hungry, crying, wetting thing maybe a million years before disposable diapers. As a result, women became the choosier sex, and men evolved to place a higher value on choosier women. So, when you find "He's Just Not That Into You," there's a good chance it started with "you're way too into him."
That's probably what led you to dissect his goodnight kiss like a high school lab frog: "Does the fact that it was on the lips mean he likes me and wants a second date?" Maybe. Or maybe he was drunk and missed your cheek, or maybe it was a cry for help in an unusual manner. After one date, you're not only obsessing over the kiss, you've mapped out when he eats, sleeps, and checks messages. And this on top of asking him out, a risky move for a woman. Your job is to flirt and see if a guy shows interest. If he doesn't, don't be showing up at salsa night and trying to form a conga line with the other women he's dating.
There's a good chance you do this stuff because you're one of those women who takes the bus stop approach to life: standing around waiting for a man to come complete you. Eventually, you get tired of waiting all incomplete, and you start hunting 'em down. Unfortunately, you aren't likely to get a guy -- one you'd want, anyway -- until you get a life beyond guys. If you aren't motivated to become somebody for the sake of it, do the beautifully shallow thing and become somebody for the sake of becoming somebody's girlfriend. The more interesting you are, the more focused you'll be on your own life, and the more attractive you'll be to men. In time, you should find yourself seeing a man, and not just from the back, as he's running for his life.
Grade A CRAZY
I hope she's under the age of 25 when the supposed transformation to "I am self assured and comfortable in my own skin, why are guys so clingy?" hasn't happened yet. At least then this dumb question will keep her on schedule for her age and maturity...
If showing up at Salsa dancing when you know he'll be there doesn't work, try sitting in a car outside of his home and wait for him to get there.
Women shouldn't ask out men, most men don't like it; it gets rid of the chase. By kissing her quickly on the lips and tasting the desperation he was able to conclude that he can drop her into his blackbook of girls that he can go salsa dancing with (there aren't any of them running around, of this I am sure).
Blackjack at December 3, 2008 4:17 AM
I asked a guy out and we went salsa dancing last night. Afterward, he gave me a quick kiss goodbye on the lips. Does the fact that it was on the lips mean he likes me and wants a second date?
Depends how long it lasted. 1 second = no; 2 seconds = maybe; 3 seconds = a second date; 4 seconds = marriage; 5 seconds = with kids. Didn't they teach you anything in school?
Would he have kissed me there if he didn't really like me?
What rule book are you using?
I'd like to see him again, but know he's dating other women.
Do you really know, or are you just going on what he said? You need to go undercover to be sure. Hire a private detective.
I texted him today, saying I had fun, and hoped we'd stay in touch. I haven't heard from him yet, but this is his sleep time, as he gets home from work around 8 a.m. What should I do if I don't hear from him? I'm thinking of showing up Tuesday at salsa when I know he goes.
If he's at salsa Tuesdays, that's the time to bug his phone.
Norman at December 3, 2008 4:52 AM
Antsy, repeat after me: Desperation is NOT pretty or attractive.
Again: Desperation is NOT pretty or attractive.
Once more: Desperation is NOT pretty or attractive.
Listen to Amy and get your own life, please. Be the pursued, not the pursuer! Your well-being does NOT depend on whether or not a man (any man!) likes you. Or wants to salsa with you. Sheesh. No wonder some men are so skittish - it's women like you who give other (normal, not desperate) women a bad name! o.O
Flynne at December 3, 2008 5:48 AM
I used to stalk guys back when I was in highschool, too. I like to think I was more subtle about it, though.
Please tell me she's in highschool.
But anyway: She might be OK at this point. A follow-up text saying you had a good time is acceptable, right? Hopefully, she's only sent one, and she's not really going to show up at Salsa night. Hopefully.
ahw at December 3, 2008 8:46 AM
Totally agree Flynne! We have to deal with the damage done by stalker-women like the LW. I have become the Man Whisperer (C) because I find the technique that is used on eye-rolling, snorting wild horses also works on these poor guys-no direct eye contact, no questions, leave them alone and let them come to you.
Chrissy at December 3, 2008 9:02 AM
Oh, this is poignant. I've been there, and so have plenty of other women. Build up your inner sense of security, woman, and DON'T PURSUE!! Just don't do it! It may get you a few dates and sexy times at first, but in a very short time you nearly always end up with a guy who doesn't value you and pulls away. Is that what you want? Be friendly, interested, available, but do not GO for him. Don't obsess either. Big waste of time--find something else to fill your time, and what will be, shall be.
Debra at December 3, 2008 9:18 AM
Oh I've been there, too - as tempting as it is to make fun of this woman, so have most of us. Having been in her shoes before, I would recommend she do two things:
1) Date two or three guys at once - she will have a lot of fun and won't find it so important to focus on just one. If things don't work out with one, oh well - she has the other two.
2) Get *into* something besides boys - preferably something that involves physical exercise, like join a running group and start training for a triathlon. This will boost her self-confidence, get her in shape, and allow her to meet new people.
Pirate Jo at December 3, 2008 9:26 AM
I met a guy a few years ago, was talking to him and we went out a bit, but something just seemed...off. Then he told me he was "looking for a girlfriend" not looking to see if I would be good girlfriend material, nope just looking for some nameless faceless girl to fill the position. Would I like the job?
I said no. Because I'm not a desperate loser willing to take any guy who offers. She apparently needs to find that confidence in herself...or really ANY confidence in herself.
And she reminds me of him, willing to take any person with the right parts who holds still long enough near her...
Tina at December 3, 2008 10:00 AM
Oh come on, what's wrong with asking a guy out? I think it's ballsy to be the one risking rejection. I'd have given it some time before calling him after, though.
With previous BF, I asked him out. Chased him, I suppose you could call it. I saw what I wanted and went after it. We lasted 4 years. With DH, he had asked me out, but I couldn't go. So a few days later I called him up for a movie. We're married now. Worked out pretty well both times I'd say.
momof3 at December 3, 2008 10:07 AM
Here's something I have done. Say I'm interested in a guy, and I can tell he's interested in me, but is obviously too terrified to ask me out. I'll sort of ask him out, but in a casual way - want to go with me to do (fill in the blank)? - which is some mundane activity, not very date-like, like going to buy birthday gifts for a mutual acquaintance. Then I'd just act like I'm his buddy - smile and be friendly, have a normal conversation like I would have with anyone, and don't flirt unless he initiates it (which he might still be too terrified to do).
My goal was to figure out if I actually have anything in common with this person. Because even a really sexy person is going to get boring really fast, if you can't even talk to them or have fun otherwise. Plus it relaxes a poor tongue-tied guy (plus yourself) to just talk about a subject he finds interesting. I almost never got to the end of the evening without him asking to see me again. But if he didn't ask, *I* would never ask again, either. Dude's gotta grow a set at some point.
Pirate Jo at December 3, 2008 4:07 PM
Gonna go with Pirate Jo and momof3 on this one. Women asking men out isn't a bad thing. Desperation is (man or woman), such as what appears to be the LW's case. A woman who doesn't have the guts etc. to ask a guy out or at least make an effort is a wuss. I'll admit I'm a shy guy but I thought this was the "age of equality"? I'm also tired of the games, especially when we live in a society that hands out the "stalker" moniker far too easily. I think some women dislike being the chaser simply because they're inexperienced at it, too afraid of rejection and boy howdy do some women take rejection bad.
Sio at December 4, 2008 12:44 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/stalking-on-air.html#comment-1610183">comment from SioWomen asking men out IS a bad thing. I've explained why many times. It can sometimes work out okay, but what works best is for women to flirt and for men to pick up on that and ask them woman out if they're interested. Men who are interested show their interest by rising to the occasion. If a woman asks a man out, because of the way we're hard-wired, she comes off as too easy (not in the sexual sense, necessarily). And yes, again, sometimes things work out okay when a woman asks a man out, but it's a risky dynamic.
Amy Alkon at December 4, 2008 3:02 PM
I'm completely in favor of women asking men out. In my experience, the more forward a guy is, the greater likelihood of him being a bit slutty or desperate, so waiting for him to do the asking restricts me to this type of guy. When I'm more forward, I have more options. Granted, I flirt first and gauge a guy's reaction before taking the risk of asking him out, so it's not completely one-sided. But I prefer to do at least part of the chasing because it gives me more control of the situation, and I enjoy the thrill of taking that risk.
opaloo at December 5, 2008 12:55 AM
I'm going to have to side with Pirate Jo and momof3. I've been asked out several times by women, and it has worked out fine every time. What it does is cut through all of the BS. It is hard to approach someone you don't know, especially these days when there is so much stalker hysteria. I think many guys are intimidated by being labelled as a psycho or a weirdo or a stalker, so they just don't ask.
What could be so bad about a woman asking a guy out for a bike ride, or to a ball game, to play ping-pong, or for coffee? It says "hey, I think I would like to get to know you a little." And, if that is successful, usually the guy asks her out on a REAL date anyway. At the point that a woman asks a guy out there has obviously been some flirting anyway, so maybe its ok for a woman to take charge sometimes if the guy needs a little push (or shove).
Or, everyone can just sit home alone watching TV.
mike at December 5, 2008 8:04 AM
I've been asked out by a few women. It's as mixed a bag as women accepting dates from guys who ask them out. You get some that are decent and well adjusted and well as odd and maladjusted. I agree with opaloo, being the one that asks for the date lets a woman be more proactive in choosing the kind of guy she'd like to date and dispenses with the waiting for a guy (like myself) who doesn't always pick up on the subtlety of some flirting. But that's off topic.
The LW is damn near having an anxiety attack waiting for a guy with whom she's only had one date to call her. It would be interesting to know where she met this guy and why she's put so much hope into this one date. Maybe it was her first time being the aggressor and didn't want to strike out on her first time at bat. If that is the case I would say to her that if this one didn't work out, do not be afraid to ask another guy out in the future.
Deion at December 5, 2008 8:42 AM
Males are hunters. Hunters do not like it when the cute-but-spooky bunny does the pursuing.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at December 6, 2008 2:28 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/stalking-on-air.html#comment-1611236">comment from Gog_Magog_Carpet_ReclaimersThanks, Gog. Perfectly put. I was too tired to repeat what I've said about this 5,000 times.
Amy Alkon at December 7, 2008 12:22 AM
A woman can certainly make clear that she would like to be asked out -- without doing the asking. That being said, a self-confident male certainly doesn't get "threatened" by a woman asking him out -- although he can certainly get turned off by a weird or overly aggressie woman. Also, a self-confident woman doesn't appear loose or desperate if she asks a guy out. I guess some of these "rules" are needed for those who text message pleas for a date...
Bob at December 8, 2008 12:08 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/12/stalking-on-air.html#comment-1611721">comment from BobA woman's job is to flirt with a guy to let him know she's interested. Next step is his, asking her out. Women who play all the parts are often desperate or just not that smart about the differences between men and women. Or know and don't care.
Amy Alkon at December 8, 2008 12:29 PM
...or prefer no mate to one who's hung up on this kind of thing.
It takes all kinds...
The Other Lily at December 8, 2008 2:09 PM
Let me just say that I don't mind being pursued one bit. And I won't have ANY advice goddess telling me otherwise.
Cheers!
Frank at December 10, 2008 7:20 AM
Gotta say it's the post-game analysis of the minutiae of your first date that's a bit offputting, rather than who asked out whom. As a guy, I have no problems whatsoever with women doing the asking.
But it drives me completely insane to have meaning ascribed to every little, tiny, insignificant thing I do or say. Seriously. I didn't mean anything by asking about your hometown. I'm not into hometowns and have no particular interest in intra-state migration, but thank you for this lovely compendium by the dept of labour.
Will all of you please stop doing that? It's incredibly tedious and annoying. Honestly. Please stop. Thanks.
scott at December 10, 2008 10:05 AM
I wonder what scott meant by that... He must like me!!
Chrissy at December 16, 2008 8:56 AM
Amy,
What can I do but laugh. You totally hit the nail on the head.
Geez, antsy. desperate much? Sounds like your one and only date with this guy sent him running for the hills. Stop being so pathetic. You're making the rest of us women who know what the hell we're doing to get and keep a man look bad.
Ms. Sassy at December 29, 2008 9:34 PM
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