Braking Wind
The guy I've been dating for three months has only had one relationship, lasting a year. On the continuum of Friends With Benefits and serious dating, I told him I was generally more toward the serious side, and he said he's in the middle. He does sweet things for me and treats me really well, but he's NEVER verbal about his feelings or where he sees things going. I complained, and he said I "deserve better," but said he didn't want to say anything right then because it would be forced. Still, nothing's changed. His friends assure me he's "head over heels," but I'd like to hear it from him. He's the most solid guy I've met in years, but I'm a 38-year-old woman who wants kids, and I don't want to waste time in a dead-end situation.
--Edgy
There's a reason they don't put women in your position on interrogation duty at Guantanamo: "Why won't you tell me your feelings? Where do you see us next year at this time? Don't you love me? I'm 38, and I want a baby!" Sure, this is torture to a guy, but not the kind that's gonna make him talk.
I'm guessing your guy actually was "verbal" about how he's feeling. When you asked -- and asked and asked -- he probably told you "I dunno." And that's probably the truth. You know how girl parts are kinda different from boy parts? Well, girl brains and boy brains and hormones aren't exactly alike, either. Brain imaging studies show that men tend to have less brain matter for processing and verbalizing emotion, like a smaller orbital frontal area, says neuropsychologist Ruben C. Gur, "related to the ability to regulate and contextualize emotional experience." Research by Gur suggests that men's knee-jerk emotional response tends to be physical -- like socking somebody -- where women's is likely to be verbal. All in all, as Gur said to tell you, "some of the blunting of emotional expression in (your) boyfriend is part of being a biological male."
By the way, what's "the serious side of dating"? You sit around together in Amish shoes looking grim? A guy keeps seeing you because the fun outweighs the unfun. Any guy, even one who's looking to get serious. Of course, you should mention early on how much you want kids -- winnowing out men who can't picture themselves saying "Come to daddy" to anyone who isn't wearing a sequined g-string.
This guy has been telling you a lot, just not in girlspeak. He told you he's had a single one-year relationship -- which suggests his determination to marry and make babies may pale in comparison to yours. Still, he shows you in lots of ways that he's into you, he has some integrity, and he doesn't seem to be going anywhere. If you'd like that to continue, work harder to figure out what he's saying his way instead of stamping your feet and demanding he talk like a girl. Maybe consider vitrification, a new process for freezing your eggs, which might help you stop accessorizing for dates with a stopwatch. Dinner and a movie are more likely to lead to future dinners and movies (and then some) if you aren't spending the entire time silently screaming at your date, "My eggs are aging by the minute! After this movie, they'll be a whole 92 minutes older, and that's not counting the previews!"
Sis is that you? Just joking!
Sounds like you need to have the HARD TALK. The hard talk is asking those questions that are not easy or comfortable to ask
"Birth Control"? What kind, who pays, what if something goes wrong? "The Future" - what is your opinion about marriage, children, are you going to be a guitar player for a Led Zeeplin Cover band playing small gigs forever.
"The Past" - are the police looking for you? With out details how many sexual partners have you had a) not to many b) a few if you do not count one night stands c) you might want to get a STD test d) OH MY GOD YOU SL__.
"Opinions that matter". What is your opinion about children? Marriage? I have had and accident and your opinion about Abortion? Gun Rights? Do you want a revolver or pistol? (OK OK that one is important to me) you get the point.
The thing is nobody likes the HARD TALK. Just asking the questions can ruin or change a relationship. People learn to look for clues and beat around the bush in conversation but never do they come out and say "I WANT THIS" or "I THINK THIS". AND YOU!? ALso, when is the the time to have the TALK. A month into the realtionship, a year, the honeymoon?
The LW wants children and she is getting long in the teeth. - unless she is willing to freeze her eggs or consider other things like adoption, she needs to have the HARD TALK about children and the future. And she may just have to be bitchy and desperate in the end. She need to have it NOW. Will she hold out a few more months or another year to see if he is possible ONE to have a future with. He may say he could be the one. She may have to say sorry to COULD I want a WILL and toss this guy and scream NEXT!
ALSO LW Good for you for not going the whoops way with this man and for not deciding to become a single mother. Good for being responsible.
John Paulson at February 10, 2009 11:33 PM
John P: What?
Amy: "By the way, what's "the serious side of dating"? You sit around together in Amish shoes looking grim?" That shit is funny.
kg at February 11, 2009 5:02 AM
"Amish shoes." Priceless.
spartee at February 11, 2009 5:59 AM
What I am trying to say is - The woman has got to tell the BF what she wants? (Rereading sounds like she has - somewhat.) And she has to ask him what he wants. He has been vague about himself and hard to nail down. She also sounds like she is waffling and she needs/wants a shove in a direction, any direction. Amy's Advice is a shove to ( I think) to stay with BF and try to understand where he stands on the relationship and future. And be careful in translation to use a male filter and not a female/emotional filter.
My opinion slash advice was to be blunt and have a HARD TALK. Find out what each person wants and come to an understanding or compromise. God all Advice givers including Goddesses give the same advice in this situation - COMMUNICATION.
John Paulson at February 11, 2009 6:05 AM
John, it sounds like she's trying to have the "HARD TALK" and is not getting too far with it. Asking him "what he wants" may not go very well since he seems to be a.) not sure, or b.) quite happy to keep the status quo, enjoying the relationship without actively pondering its cosmic implications.
I do understand the LW's conundrum. On one hand she thinks she's short of time if she wants to have kids naturally, but on the other if she gets really pushy/demanding, this decent, "sweet" guy who treats her well is liable to decide he doesn't need this anymore. So yeah, I don't know what's best here for the LW ... probably something along the lines of "be patient, and let him declare his intentions through his actions, since if you're only looking for his words you miss what he's really saying."
JBar at February 11, 2009 7:02 AM
A hard talk at 3 months?? Are you kidding me?
What this woman need to do for both of their sakes is date around. Date this fellow and date others. It's called getting to know each other to determine how a long term relationship would be.
It sounds like their sleeping together so frankly, I'd keep it to just sleeping with this fellow, but date others.
IF he is feeling more serious, she'll know immediately. If not, then fine. Go out, have fun. Get to know a lot of people and don't wait around for this particular person.
This is the problem with early sex. Yes, it's great, but all of a sudden you are kind of beholden to just the one partner at a time. At 3 months, you are just now getting to really know each other.
My advice, sex with one, date many.
Enjoy.
Terri at February 11, 2009 7:02 AM
Damn Terri, that is some good advice. Why keep all your eggs in one basket. Invest for the future and date some other guys. (Really - No Sarcasm)
True having the HARD TALK at 3 months seems extreme, but she is the one saying she has an expiry date and is getting antsy. I would give the same advice to a 90 year old couple because one could easily just cark it doing it the same way some 20 something couple would do it. I will admit that having the hard talk at 3 months could totally f-up the relationship but it could actually get it on track to what she wants.
Actually HARD TALKS should happen as soon as any relationship starts. It is the questions that are asked that are important. If I going out with a girl for a month, I sure as hell going to talk about birth control and what is her opinion if she gets knocked up and my opinion that I would ask her to get an abortion. YadaYada and so on. But I not going to talk about Marriage at one month. Or the same about kids. That could likely wait to a more permanent kind point of the relationship.
The more I think about it. I like it. Hard Talk helps me communicate in a guy way. I find at times women like to beat around the bush and not get to a point quickly. Guys at times like to be told exactly what is happening or what to do. We want bluntness.
Heck we may not like it but at times we just want it. We understand it when our sig other tells us something like we are getting fat and another 10kg we are out the door. Rather than getting the little comments that we are eating a few too many Snicker Bars or have we checked out the calories in that Pudding cup, or maybe dear we should go for a walk.
John Paulson at February 11, 2009 7:49 AM
What this woman wants is an ambulatory penis. It is easy to know where husband comes out in this scenario. An extremely distant last. Why the hell didn't she have kids earlier?
Richard F. Cook at February 11, 2009 7:50 AM
This woman's problem is that she's acting freaking desperate. Three months? Three months, and she wants to know whether this guy is "serious" about her, if they're headed toward marriage, if he wants to have babies with her?
I don't care how much the LW wants kids, or how soon, she's jumping the gun. That she's 38 and justifiably concerned about her waning fertility doesn't change the fact that three months into a relationship is way, WAY too early to know if it's serious or not.
If what she wants is a sperm donor, she should go to a clinic. If what she wants is a relationship, she needs to accept that it takes time and experience to get to know someone well enough to judge whether or not they're someone you want to pledge to share your life with.
If I were the BF, I'd run screaming from this woman. She isn't seeing him as a real person, just as generic husband-and-father material.
Dana Carpender at February 11, 2009 8:12 AM
I don't think a "hard talk" is in order just yet, but I think that figuring out whether or not a guy wants a family early on is a good move. "Do you want kids someday" isn't an offensive question, and I like Amy's suggestion of mentioning one's own desire for a family pretty early on. If a guy says he doesn't want marriage or kids, he means it. (Now, it might just mean he doesn't want kids with YOU, but that's life.)
ahw at February 11, 2009 8:32 AM
Ya know, I agree with Dana. The desperation factor is NOT pretty. LW needs to take it down a notch or 2, and just relax. If it's meant to happen, it'll happen. I had daughter #2 when I was 38, and she's fine. If LW is a healthy person and watches her alcohol intake and doesn't take serious risks, she should be fine too, even into her early to mid-40s, if it takes that long. But damn! take it easy, ferpetesakes! She's gonna send him running if she pushes too hard.
Flynne at February 11, 2009 8:45 AM
Question: How many "serious side" of dating can one person have? Really, what does that mean? To me, the "serious" implies she wanted a future with the guys. Did she want to marry all of them?
BabyBug at February 11, 2009 10:40 AM
I'm so relieved to be married. The whole American thing about having to pretend you don't want to marry the person and wait ten years is annoying. When I was single, I wished I lived somewhere that had arranged marriages, it seemed much simpler. The American dating system sucks.
Poor woman. At 38 she is pretty much screwed on the having kids thing if she has to wait several years.
On the other hand, my friend who caught my bouquet was 38, and a couple months later she met a guy, and a year after my wedding she was married. Now she is pregnant!
NicoleK at February 11, 2009 11:23 AM
I completely agree with Terri. She should be daing A LOT of guys, and maybe stop sleeping with this guy, just to keep herself from bonding (oxytoxins!). That way she'll have lots to chose from, have some fun, and increase the chances of meeting a guy who's in just as much of a hurry as she is to get married and start having babies already!
Women know what they want a lot faster than men, and then they get annoyed at the poor guy. The LW has to stop fixating.
Chrissy at February 11, 2009 12:38 PM
Reason #5,883,247 why I'm glad I never wanted kids. Seriously. Babyrabies makes you look like an idiot.
Pirate Jo at February 11, 2009 3:11 PM
Funny isnt it? a guy is honest about his feeling and that make him an asshole, a vauge, waffleing, wont tell me where this is going type of asshole.
She should count her lucky stars this guy doent simply tell her what she wants to hear as he strings her along.
Anyway back to my origianl comment, funny int it? A guy can be a smooth talking ass, or a truth telling ass.
Why is it no matter what a guy does he always comes out as an ass?
lujlp at February 11, 2009 4:26 PM
Geeze wow, put words in my mouth. First off, I commented the woman/LW is waffling. She is the one who has made a decision on what she wants now she has to implement it.
As to the vagueness. Yep he is being vague. Is their anything wrong with that. Yes and no. He is just being normal. God it has only been three months. Both sexes can be vague in relationships. People do not communicate at times what they want or how they see things going in the future. Heck some of the time people just do not know what they want. The LW knows, he just does not. And he is being pushed and investigated to find out if he found what he wants.
As to the guy, is he an asshole? Nope, he sounds like a regular everyday bloke. Except the poor bastard has walked into a mine field.
Should he have to deal at three months with a serious relationshipper - inconvenient but truthful answer is yes. It is better to deal with a serious blow then getting reamed and f-up by this woman if he continues longer in this relationship. Better to see the crazy now then a year later when she is looking for cribs and talking about that one drunken night the condom broke.
Also rereading the letter. It sounds like the guy was a truth telling guy (nope no ass). The woman just decided to not listen to the words/silences and search for meanings in the in between the words and silences. She is also being pushed by friends opinions that says that he loves her. Which can be a formula for disaster - who do you listen to the actual person or a friend who thinks they know what that person thinks.
John Paulson at February 11, 2009 7:18 PM
No mention of how old BF is, but if LR is 38 I assume he's pushing 40 too -- and he has had ONE serious relationship that lasted one year?? Lady, are you nuts?? This guy is not daddy material! He's wounded or damaged somehow, and looking for refuge. Give him shelter, sure, but ease up on the deadlines. You need to pet him first.
charlo at February 11, 2009 8:16 PM
The bloke is not an ass. Women are more aware of biological time than men are. Men think things can continue just as they are, more or less for ever.
When I was married, there came a point when my wife said she wanted a baby, and if I didn't, then I should take care of contraception from then on. I didn't desire any change in my lifestyle but I could also see that it would be cruel of me to deny my wife something she wanted so much. So I placed my trust in my wife, and went along with her. I was not disappointed, either in my trust, or my subsequent life as a father to two children.
The point is I took a leap into the scary unknown, and based on my experience, I generalise and think that is how it is for all men.
Norman at February 12, 2009 1:46 AM
Good for you Norman. As I said we men like bluntness - she basically told you that birth control was going to be your problem as she wanted children. Sounds like you took in the info and processed it and came to a conclusion. Great that it worked out. Thank god she decided to not hint at that she was going to being missing a few days with her birth control pills.
Still you should have had more of a back and forth between you two. Thank Goodness that you not said - "Ok Dear, I will visit a urologist to get a vasectomy."
John Paulson at February 12, 2009 3:18 AM
You've been together 3 months. Obviously this guy is in to you because he didn't run away when you started bitch slapping him with your bioogical clock. God knows I would have. At 3 months, the relationship is still supposed to be fun and exciting. All your showing him is that a life with you will be hell if you don't get what you want when you want it- how he feels be damned.
What if he was willing to give you everything you wanted and you just had to back off and let him figure out how he feels on his own. Doesn't this brow beating thing normally happen around the one year mark? You started it at like the 20 minute mark. BACK OFF
Lia at February 12, 2009 9:21 AM
@Lia: "Obviously this guy is in to you because he didn't run away when you started bitch slapping him with your biological clock." Hope so, but as we've said, it's only been three months.
In fact, I could see Ms. Alkon getting a letter that starts, "Dear Amy, I've been seeing a terrific lady for three months now, but lately she's worried about her fertility window, and..." I wonder what kind of comments that letter would generate.
@Pirate Jo: "Babyrabies makes you look like an idiot." Pirate Jo, I can honestly tell you that I've never, ever, in my life, seen or heard the word "babyrabies!" Did you make that one up?
old rpm daddy at February 12, 2009 11:19 AM
RPM,
I've heard the term before. It's a nice, easy to remember almost-rhyme that is meant to capture the desperation of a woman who worries that her child-bearing window is closing. Or, now that I think about it, I've heard it used to describe ANY woman who is in full "babynow, babynow!!" mode, whatever her age.
JBar at February 12, 2009 1:20 PM
No, I didn't invent the term "babyrabies" - but it's been a few years since I first saw it on the Internet, so I can't remember where I originally got it. It is appropriate in this case, though - she's laying this on him after only three months! The mother of the fucktuplets, sorry I meant to say octuplets, has/had babyrabies, too.
Pirate Jo at February 12, 2009 1:25 PM
This woman reminds me of some of the women my brother ends up dating. They come across as such stalkers and daddy-seekers (although WHO the daddy is doesn't really seem to be important). He's come up with these three questions to ask all future potential mates:
1. Are you on leave, or have you ever been, a patient in a mental care facility?
2. Is there a warrant out for your arrest for stalking or any other crime?
3. Is my voice the ONLY one that you are hearing right now?
Renee at February 13, 2009 4:22 AM
You can generally tell what a person wants from the kinds of "off-handed" comments they make. This morning, as my boyfriend was cleaning the litter box, he said, "If we manage to get you pregnant, I'd have to find a better way to do this instead of getting this crap all over the living room."
Putting aside the freakishly awkward phrasing and the fact that I'm not sure who else might be knocking me up, this is clearly a dude who wants a child and a future with me.
The LW doesn't even need to have long talks with her boyfriend to know what he wants. She just needs to listen to what he's saying and how he talks about the future. If he's worrying about you being exposed to toxic kitty litter, he wants a child. If he's funneling all of his life savings into building the world's most bitchin' motorcycle engine, probably not.
MonicaP at February 14, 2009 10:36 AM
If this man was looking towards the future with her as anything more than a friend with benefits, she wouldn't need to feel like she's pulling teeth to ask him. Men may not like the "talk" or even discussing the possibilities, but my experience is that a man who is interested will let you know. I dunno means, sorry but I just don't see it. Yes, three months is early, but that is also the phase of butterflies, fireworks, etc. If he's not feeling it now, he never is. Time to move on.
Kristen at February 15, 2009 2:52 PM
"Yes, three months is early, but that is also the phase of butterflies, fireworks, etc. If he's not feeling it now, he never is."
Totally agree with this.
Pirate Jo at February 16, 2009 7:12 AM
How could Creative Loafing think of replacing you with that shock-value, know-nothing, Dan Savage? You actually some pretty good advice with solid research behind it. As opposed to Savage how advises airheads on how to use vibrators without chipping their teeth.
Patrick at February 17, 2009 9:39 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/braking-wind.html#comment-1634418">comment from PatrickMaybe he gave them a big discount?
Amy Alkon at February 17, 2009 9:54 AM
This chick needs to stop putting all her eggs in one basket if she's that worried about ending up old and childless.
Sharifa at February 17, 2009 12:36 PM
"Yes, three months is early, but that is also the phase of butterflies, fireworks, etc. If he's not feeling it now, he never is. Time to move on."
That totally ignores that some people may be feeling the butterflies but avoid saying things they know are unrealistic. I've never said anything like 'together forever' or talked about far future plans (dreams yes, but not plans) with a partner in the first few months. I just know that it's not a realistic thing to do. That doesn't mean I'm not serious about a relationship though.
Arwen at March 2, 2009 2:01 AM
"He's the most solid guy I've met in years"
Huh? Is there really such an incredible dearth of "solid guys" out there, or did you just ignore them until you started getting desperate to settle down and pop out kids? If you really wanted kids, what exactly have you been doing for the last, um, 20 years? Maybe "solid guys" are rare, I don't know, but it's just impossible that one can go for years or decades without meeting one. The wording suggests you didn't meet anyone decent - just 'bad luck' - sure. I just wish people would take responsibility for their choices, i.e. just say I've "now finally decided to choose a decent guy instead of the losers I used to choose". OK, the past is the past, but now you want to procreate with some guy you've only known for three months? That doesn't sound sensible to me.
DavidJ at March 2, 2009 7:34 PM
"A guy keeps seeing you because the fun outweighs the unfun."
This is ]the best summary of the male brain that I have ever read.
Andrew at April 19, 2009 4:19 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/02/braking-wind.html#comment-1643993">comment from Andrew"A guy keeps seeing you because the fun outweighs the unfun." This is ]the best summary of the male brain that I have ever read.
Thank you so much -- I really try.
Amy Alkon at April 19, 2009 6:59 AM
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