Pane And Suffering
Last year, I fell for this guy, "John." We hung out and flirted via e-mail, but he never asked me out. This fall, after he left on a month-long trip, I started dating "Mike," later discovering he's one of John's best friends. Things with Mike started getting rocky. John then surprised me by e-mailing that he'd heard about Mike and me and was a bit hurt and jealous. At Christmas break, Mike left town and John returned. John and I planned to get together, but John lives with a friend of Mike's so I had to sneak in through his window. I soon realized I had to break up with Mike. Mike was devastated, and it didn't help that I couldn't tell him why. John and I kept meeting secretly, but the guilt was getting to him, so we called it quits. Now, I'm torn. Do I settle and give Mike what he wants (me), or wait and try again with John? Or, is it worth it to think of either of them?
--Hopeless Romantic
The course of true something-or-other never did run smooth. Two people -- one of whom is really kind of apathetic about the other -- torn apart by fate, or whatever you call it when you rip a perfectly good pair of panties sneaking through your boyfriend's best friend's window.
An actual "hopeless romantic" is somebody in love with love. You just seem confused: Paper or Mike? John or plastic? Cheeseburger or big steaming plate of raw sewage? "Or, is it worth it to think of either of them?" Now, I'm all for people asking me for advice -- especially because I'm fond of eating and my landlord likes me better if I pay my rent -- but you have to come in with a bit more of a base: I'm this kind of person, and here's what I care about, and here's how the two guys I'm considering stack up. Probably because you lack self-knowledge and values, you're seriously considering settling for a guy. Yeah, there's a romance right out of "Romeo and Juliet": "He's here, he wants me, whatever."
Spanish philosopher Fernando Savater said one of the greatest mistakes you can make in life is being a "moral imbecile" -- somebody who doesn't bother figuring out who they are and what matters to them, and instead relies on other people to tell them what to do. When nobody's around to ask, a person like this can end up doing some really dumb things -- say, climbing in a guy's window on the first date. Ever hear of bars, restaurants, coffee shops? Many people who date use them as meeting places -- especially if they're women looking for more than a hookup, because guys tend to use and lose women who sleep with them on (or especially, before) the first date. In the future, when a guy you're seriously interested in is picking you up, see that he does it in a car, not by grabbing you by the arms and yanking you over the sill.
Of course, until you find it completely nuts to be with a guy simply because he wants to be with you, you're the only person you should be dating. (Maybe grope yourself at the door for old time's sake.) As you get to know yourself better, you'll get a better idea of what kind of guy is right for you. In practice, deciding who to get involved with should work like Santa -- the "making a list and checking it twice" thing, not hauling off to the mall and plopping yourself down in some fat guy's lap.
The LW doesnt seem to have given any info on either of the guys other than that they know each other.
I think she needs to grow a spine, stop sneaking around, and stop 'dating'(find a fuck buddy if you need sex) until she can figure out how she is and what she wants out of a relationship
In the meantime why not sleep with Johns room mate just to screw with john and mike one last time
lujlp at May 13, 2009 3:06 AM
LW, I'll say the same thing as Lujlp and Ms Alkon: Pull back a minute and ask yourself, do you really want to be the kind of lady that sneaks through windows? If the three men managed to talk the whole issue through among themselves, do you think any of them would really want to see you again after all this drama?
Oh, by the way, I know your message was edited for space and clarity, but why did you have to do all the sneaking past John's roommate? Couldn't John come out? Is he housebound?
old rpm daddy at May 13, 2009 5:02 AM
Wow you found a whole bag a crap with this one. Two of the three of the people involved are basically scum. She ended up screwing both friends and one knowing screwed a girl his best friend was dating. What the hell happened with bros before Hoes. The LW is definitely a hoe, so is "John".
vlad at May 13, 2009 5:41 AM
How young is this girl?
kg at May 13, 2009 6:12 AM
Who, over the age of 17, sneaks through a fucking window? Seriously, LW needs to stop reading teenage romance novels. She should also know that this group of guys now probably considers her a convenient piece of ass to keep around. You know, that "cool chick" that a group of dudes lets hang out because she's usually blowing one of them? That's you, honey.
That's why you don't date guys from the same group, or your ex's roommate or cousin or brother. You end up being the community bicycle. (Everyone gets a ride.)
"Moral imbecile." I like that. Really, though, I hope this girl is really young- like a freshman in college- to be this stupid and dramatic.
ahw at May 13, 2009 7:40 AM
Fortunately, I can't say I climbed into a guy's window for a date, but the mentality sounds like me at around 14.
moreta at May 13, 2009 7:41 AM
She's engineering and authoring her own little romantic melodrama / soapie, with her very self at the centre of the story *awww*, how "romantic" ... totally siciopathically uninterested in anyone else's feelings though.
Liezl at May 13, 2009 8:33 AM
Heh. I knew a girl once, well, she was techincally a woman (mid-20s), who had a child and was living back at her parents house, with her son, after a particularly nasty divorce. (Husband caught her cheating.) ANyway, she wasn't the one climbing in through the window, her boyfriend put a ladder up to her second story bedroom window, and she snuck out while her son was sleeping, so she could go to a Van Halen concert. So I guess that shows ya that "moral imbecility" can be pretty much ageless.
Just sayin'. o.O
Flynne at May 13, 2009 9:46 AM
Flynne: I see this behavior with people in their 40s. Age has nothing to do with stupid, it's just easier to understand when they are young.
Then there is the tinny tinny part of me that is kind of envious. Two guy destroying a friendship over a party favor? Wow she must be something smoking hot or can suck start a turbine.
vlad at May 13, 2009 11:01 AM
...do you really want to be the kind of lady that sneaks through windows?
Since when do the words "lady" and "sneaks through windows" belong in the same sentence?
Who, over the age of 17, sneaks through a fucking window?
If you're old enough to be out of high school, you're old enough to use the door.
Why couldn't John have come to her place?
If only there were some kind place people could rent a room for the night.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 11:36 AM
This is one of the most pathetic questions I've read here, and that's saying a lot.
LW, don't flatter yourself. Mike may want you now, but he'll get over you quickly. Don't "settle" for his benefit.
MonicaP at May 13, 2009 12:34 PM
This "woman" is so pathetic, that her letter was actually really boring. Don't people re-read the crap they write before they send it to someone? Shouldn't she have been able to figure it out herself?
Renee at May 13, 2009 1:25 PM
LW, like Bruce Springsteen once sang, windows are for cheaters and winners, they use the door.
(Ok, that's pretty much what all the other posters said but you never let the opportunity for a Rosalita reference go unused.)
Kevin_M at May 13, 2009 3:00 PM
Two guy destroying a friendship over a party favor? Wow she must be something smoking hot or can suck start a turbine.
Holy misogyny, batman! She is a woman - or a girl - and she may be acting like an idiot, she is still a person.
Arwen at May 13, 2009 3:01 PM
...she may be acting like an idiot, she is still a person. - Arwen
Like Groucho Marx, you're fighting for this woman's honor - which is more than she ever did.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 4:07 PM
Okay... let's see... John "went away for a month" and now that he is back he can't leave the house for some reason... hmmm is this where LW writes back to tell us how wrong we are about John's intentions b/c ACTUALLY he was in prison for that month and now is on house arrest... so really he IS a nice guy who is NOT just using her for sex...
sheepmommy at May 13, 2009 6:54 PM
First, Rosalita? Great chance to get that in. Bruce was great by the way, hanging upside down from the mike singing it at Shea, many years ago. I had pneumonia and knew that night I could die happy seeing him sing that live. Anyway...back to LW...I've done some pretty stupid things in relationships and pretty stupid things in the hopes of forming relationships, but I've never actually climbed in the window of my boyfriends's best friend to avoid detection. I've been enjoying a drama free life since Amy's intervention a few years back, but now I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing out on some fun stuff. Maybe I'll find a man who will tell me, "you aint a beauty but hey you're alright." Sorry, couldn't help that one.
Kristen at May 13, 2009 7:53 PM
First, Rosalita? Great chance to get that in. Bruce was great by the way, hanging upside down from the mike singing it at Shea, many years ago. I had pneumonia and knew that night I could die happy seeing him sing that live. Anyway...back to LW...I've done some pretty stupid things in relationships and pretty stupid things in the hopes of forming relationships, but I've never actually climbed in the window of my boyfriends's best friend to avoid detection. I've been enjoying a drama free life since Amy's intervention a few years back, but now I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing out on some fun stuff. Maybe I'll find a man who will tell me, "you aint a beauty but hey you're alright." Sorry, couldn't help that one.
Kristen at May 13, 2009 7:59 PM
Like Groucho Marx, you're fighting for this woman's honor - which is more than she ever did.
No, I'm fighting for her right to be seen as a human being, and not as a 'party favour' or some kind of sex device.
Arwen at May 14, 2009 1:36 AM
"No, I'm fighting for her right to be seen as a human being, and not as a 'party favour' or some kind of sex device."
In spite of how hard the LW is fighting to do just the opposite.
Pirate Jo at May 14, 2009 6:35 AM
Well heck Arwen, you should start by suggesting SHE look at herself as a human being and not some party favour or sexual device, because that's pretty much how she's thinking, behaving and talking just at the moment.
GMan at May 14, 2009 6:44 AM
Arwen, we are looking at her as a human being... a very immature, morally bankrupt one who is out of touch with reality.
ahw at May 14, 2009 8:02 AM
If simply being born homo sapient entitles you to be viewed as a human being then all the rapists and murderer out there are just misunderstood. You want to seen as human act like it, otherwise accept the consequences of your actions.
vlad at May 14, 2009 9:29 AM
So because she doesn't have the common sense or self respect to behave any better - yet - it's completely fine for people who *do* know better, or think they do, to call her offensive names?
You think she should get some self respect? Fine - I agree entirely. So why not treat her with some respect, while you're suggesting this; it's probably a whole new experience for her. If your advice is to raise her self esteem to the point where she believes she has some actual meaningful say in the running of her own life, surely telling her them how stupid and sluttish she is is pretty counterproductive.
Kriss at May 14, 2009 10:34 AM
vlad at May 14, 2009 10:41 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/05/pane-and-suffer.html#comment-1648504">comment from KrissKriss, you do get that this is an advice column, posted on the Internet.
I don't know if your criticism is directed at me or at others here, but it's not helpful to coddle people, and I don't do it. I write back to people at length and then turn the advice into advice/humor and think/research it further.
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2009 10:50 AM
Amy,
Without revealing too much, is 'Hopeless Romantic' a 51 year old flight attendant from North Carolina?
If not, I still spent the weekend with the same woman in a different body a couple of months ago. Stopped seeing her the next weekend.
John Tagliaferro at May 14, 2009 10:57 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/05/pane-and-suffer.html#comment-1648510">comment from John TagliaferroJohn, never reveal my sources, but on the bright side, you wise up faster than a whole lot of people!
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2009 11:42 AM
Pray tell, sensitive types, exactly how is it bad to be smoking hot or being able to give a kick ass blow job? And if its not inherently bad, how can it be hateful for someone to name it as they see it?
How does someone with such seemingly little self-awareness realize they're behaving poorly unless someone else tells them. Hell, I think "party favour" is kinder than "stupid and sluttish"!
moreta at May 14, 2009 11:45 AM
Not tearing a friendship apart with you legs (or what's between them) - Vlad
Nice to see you assign some responsibility to the guys in this! They both know what is going on and aren't able to keep it in their pants, but it is all her "tearing them apart".
Mel at May 14, 2009 11:46 AM
Mel, the guys aren't writing in for advice.
ahw at May 14, 2009 12:05 PM
Actually only one of the guys knew about it and I called him a scum bag too. No he has just as much fault in this as she does. Not sure which is worse my GF screwing by best friend or my best friend screwing my GF. Both seem equally horrific.
I had to back off of a girl more than one time when a buddy expressed interest in her before I did. Even when we all knew she had her eye on me. Oh and no one had to actually tell me this was the right thing to do it was automatic.
vlad at May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
OH geez, Amy, I thought you were talking to me at first but realized there was a Kriss and not Kristen. Anyway, I have the highest regard for you, your advice, and the way that you give it. I mean it sincerely when I say that it was your kick in the ass that got me on the right track. Yes, it was all things I knew, but I needed someone to say it to me in the right way and you did. So thank you and keep on doing what you do. I rarely disagree with your advice and think that everyone should listen to you. Ok, enough ass kissing. Go back to what you do, and I did write a letter awhile ago to the Daily News. Harriet Cole is sweet, but c'mon. We need someone who says it like it is.
Kristen at May 14, 2009 7:08 PM
whenever some random male makes a crass remark about a female on any board, forum or comments area without also slamming the man too the women come out in force to defend her honor...
it's tired and predictable
i'm left wondering why the men who post bother replying to these donna quixotes; it's not ever goning to change gents...it's just female nature at work
the sistahood and all that
theOtherJim at May 15, 2009 5:57 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/05/pane-and-suffer.html#comment-1648622">comment from KristenThanks, Kristen!
Amy Alkon at May 15, 2009 7:17 AM
Yes.
You do not raise someone's self-esteem by telling them that what they are OK. That's called "enabling".
Sometimes a stupid slut needs to be told that she's a stupid slut. If enough people say it, the light comes on and she can stop being a stupid slut.
As to the men involved, well John and Mike violated several Man Rules, unless the understanding between them was that LW was "community bike".
In which case, whatever. If she had a lick of sense, she'd have picked up on that and realized "hey, I'm behaving like a stupid slut!".
As Ludacris sagely intoned: "Can't turn a ho into a housewife, ho's don't act right."
brian at May 16, 2009 6:10 AM
"I had to back off of a girl more than one time when a buddy expressed interest in her before I did. Even when we all knew she had her eye on me."
I totally agree that it sucks to sneak around with your friend's significant other. However, if no one is dating each other yet, I'd say let the best man win. The woman's interested in you, not the buddy. You're interested right back. But you don't get together with her because your buddy saw her first? I mean, what is the woman, a party favor?
I'd be mighty sad to have the guy I really wanted clear off so his unattractive buddy could hit on me!
Gail at May 16, 2009 8:59 AM
The only way to truly feel alive is to create a lot of needless turmoil and then talk about it for hours.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 16, 2009 7:26 PM
Friends come first, end of discussion. Wrecking a 10 year friendship over a fun ride is basically wrong. You are of course free to disagree with me.
Look at the reverse if you wanted a guy and he was ambivalent and you told your friend you wouldn't be pissed if she jumped his bones?
Next time you go to a bar with friends and you see a cute guy or girl (depending on your preference) check if you first though is "wow what a hot piece of ass" or "Wow they look like they have a great personality"
vlad at May 18, 2009 8:02 AM
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