Bad News Bares
I'm a single, divorced mother who met a wonderful man. Last week, he wanted me to come over. Because of my children, my only option was to pop by during my son's junior high baseball game. I dropped my son off, but instead of parking and watching the game, I drove to this man's house and we had sex. Afterward, I rushed back to the game and caught the last part. My son said he didn't see me in the stands, and asked where I was. I don't know if he thinks of his mother as a sexual person, so I ducked the question, but I'm not sure I can pull that off again. Also, I don't want to lie or give him the wrong idea about sex.
--Balancing Act
Kids may say "the darndest things," but if there's one thing your kid should never be in a position to say to you, it's "So, Mommy, did you get your freak on last night?"
Not only did you beat your kid to third base, and then some, you're seriously thinking of telling him? You don't want to lie, you say, or "give him the wrong idea about sex." Sorry, but the wrong idea about sex is what a kid gets when his mother tells him she's having it, and worse yet, when he realizes it's more important to her than sticking around for his game. You've probably succumbed to Cool Mom Syndrome, treating your children like they're your adult friends, only shorter. They're not. While any kid who scams his way onto a computer without parental controls can see sex acts that make the Flying Wallendas look like the Wheelchair-Bound Invalids, no kid ever wants to picture his parents having sex, and especially not his single mother sliding into home with some strange man.
Sure, it's hard to tell your kids about the birds and the bees, which is why there are helpful books out there with passages like "When a man loves a woman very much..." not "When a Mommy loves her little baseball player very much, but has some serious ants in her panties..." If you want to give your son some truly valuable sex education, tell him not to feel pressured to have it, to use a condom if he does, and to maintain custody of that condom at all times. There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine.
Regarding your needs, the moment you turned your diaphragm into a Frisbee, they started coming third -- or should have. So, "I am woman, hear me roar," and all that -- yes -- but from the bleachers when your kid's batting, not into the pillow lest Wonderful Man's neighbors assume there's a crime in progress...that is, beyond parental neglect. Instead of trying to relieve your guilt (you do feel some guilt, right?) by confessing to your kid, think remorseful thoughts, and make it up to him in time and attention. As for how you can have children and sex dates, too, was it too much for your lust-addled brain to figure out that you can swap babysitting hours with some other sex-mad single mom? Yes, with just a little advance planning, you'll eliminate the need to brief your 13-year-old on your whereabouts: "Actually, dear, I remembered I had something on the stove -- I just didn't realize at the time that it was me."
Sandra Tsing Loh has an interesting article about marriage in the new Atlantic that mentions some research suggesting that it's not single parenthood that is particularly detrimental to kids, but rather the continual sturm und drang caused by parents' dating/re-coupling. It makes sense to me (though obviously there can be pretty serious problems with single parenthood too) - having a parent's attention focused on meeting and pleasing new partners would be very unsettling, and having to form temporary relationships with those individuals would be worse. Great advice, Amy!
CB at June 16, 2009 9:58 PM
I wish you had made one point more strongly: there is nothing wrong with her taking time for herself.
Arrange for the boy to go over to a friend's house. Tell him that she is also going to visit a friend for the evening. He doesn't need to know any more than that.
Heck, if the kid is 10 or 12, and she isn't gone for more than 2-3 hours, she could even leave him home alone on occasion. Done right and not to excess, he will feel all grown up and trusted.
bradley13 at June 17, 2009 12:41 AM
Because she feels guilty (rightfully or not)she wants to relieve her guilt by telling someone. This is similar to the person that has been unfaithful to their spouse. They think if I tell them it will releive my guilt. What it does is releive the person who told temporarily and then emotionally traumatizes the other person. In other words shifts there bad feelings to the other person.
David M. at June 17, 2009 5:44 AM
It's really nothing he needs to know. She can simply say I was running errands.
David M. at June 17, 2009 5:46 AM
How about letting the father take care of the child while you are over having sex with your new boyfriend. I'm sure, since he is probably only getting the every other weekend routine, that he would love to see the child at the baseball game! So, do your child a favor and let his dad be involved in his life, if you don't have the time.
Isn't there time on that every other weekend to see the boyfriend? Or you just could not wait a few days.
How old is the child? Why would you leave him alone like that? When he looks up in the stands should he not be able to see his parent up there?
mike at June 17, 2009 5:56 AM
If the kid's between 11 and 13, there should be plenty of boyfriend time when the kid's off doing his own thing, assuming he's allowed a little unsupervised time.
She doesn't even need to be at EVERY game, but she should be there if he's expecting her to be there. A little planning can solve a lot of problems.
MonicaP at June 17, 2009 6:58 AM
Seriously - where do these people come from? I have 2 teenage kids. If that was my kid I would say "something came up, sorry, but the last few innings I caught were great/not so great/fun to watch."
END OF CONVERSATION.
Kari at June 17, 2009 7:26 AM
What struck me was that its not her guilt, but the fact that she seems like she plans on doing this again. Sometimes things come up and a game might be missed, but c'mon. And she wants to tell the kid Mommy was getting it while he was fielding fly balls? How bout saying she ran a few errands and apologizing for missing part of the game and then waiting till the kid is with his dad or a babysitter to get laid. And she should consider what kind of man asks a woman to leave her kid at a field to come have sex. If he has any respect for her or her role as a mother he would be waiting for her to have some free time. She does deserve some free time for herself but she needs obviously to learn how to balance. I'm divorced with three kids so I get that sometimes you'd like to get laid, but my kids come first. Go out and buy a toy and some batteries if the need is that urgent.
Kristen at June 17, 2009 7:43 AM
Aw, durnit Kristen, you took the words right out of my mouth (keyboard?) -- every single topic!
Seriously, timing seems important here. There's a time for watching the kids' ballgames, and it's uncool to break in the middle for a little floppy-bop. Incontinence, maybe, but not a doink-break.
By the way, don't baseball games for kids that age run only six innings or so? Figuring in time to get to boyfriend, and returning from boyfriend, how much time was left for the actual shagging? That game must have had a lot of scoring. The baseball game, I mean.
old rpm daddy at June 17, 2009 8:14 AM
Good answer kristen! I think this person has got her priorities mixed up. Maybe she needs to give custody to the Dad so she can have a sex life...
mike at June 17, 2009 8:59 AM
Sounds like on some level she wants her kids' approval for this...?
BTW, "Cool Mom Syndrome, treating your children like they're your adult friends, only shorter" is SUCH a great line! It perfectly encapsulates that incredibly annoying, ridiculous phenomenon - nice to see it put so succinctly into words.
BerthaMinverva at June 17, 2009 9:23 AM
Mike,
If the dad wanted to be at the game, he would have been. Who says just because people divorce, they can't be at the same place at the same time? I recognize that you are a guy who is looking out for guys, but, look, there are a lot of dads out there who aren't as interested in their kids as probably you are.
As for the kid looking in the stands for his mother? Something is fishy. My son doesn't "look" for me in the stands. He just knows I am there. Always. If the kid is looking for her, then he is missing her. Otherwise, he would be paying attention to his performance, not hers. Kristen is right; this mom's priorities are wack.
kg at June 17, 2009 9:36 AM
Way to go, Amy! You slutshame that selfish whore! After all, she probably only had the kid to get FABULOUS CASH PRIZES from his dad, just like all single mothers, and is probably doing the same to the new boyfriend.
Jesus Christ.
Cyberwulf at June 17, 2009 10:13 AM
"There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine."
Beware! Beware of the unscrupulous baby-making whores that lurk behind every street corner!
Mouse at June 17, 2009 11:02 AM
Oh. My. Word.
Okay, the amount of stupid in this column is almost unbelievable. Let's take it by the numbers.
"Not only did you beat your kid to third base, and then some, you're seriously thinking of telling him? You don't want to lie, you say, or 'give him the wrong idea about sex.'"
So, first, You should apparently never be honest with your children. Especially if it would be even slightly embarrassing. That only leads them to believe that honesty is an important quality that should be cultivated and practiced.
"Sorry, but the wrong idea about sex is what a kid gets when his mother tells him she's having it..."
Absolutely. No child has ever put two and two together after getting the sex talk from their parents. Children are all idiots and we can not expect their tiny, little brains to comprehend such complex things. Therefore, they must be shielded from the harsh realities of biology!
"You've probably succumbed to Cool Mom Syndrome, treating your children like they're your adult friends, only shorter."
Next, it seems that whatever you do, you should never treat your children as if they could ever be mature individuals. All that nonsense about setting a high standard and people who rise to meet it? Yeah, ignore that. Children should be treated as particularly cute pets, and that's all!!! Respect your child as a person? That's just crazy talk!
"...no kid ever wants to picture his parents having sex, and especially not his single mother sliding into home with some strange man."
Third--and this one is appears very important--assuming that you do loose your head and ignore the first two points, remember, the only way to talk to your children about sex is to phrase everything in such bizarrely immature ways that most adults would look at you sideways. Remember this.
"If you want to give your son some truly valuable sex education, tell him not to feel pressured to have it, to use a condom if he does, and to maintain custody of that condom at all times."
Wow! I believe we may have discovered the one sentence of truly valuable advice in this whole column. Let's watch it get completely undermined in the next sentence.
"There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine."
And there it goes. Yes, there are unscrupulous women out there, and so it's good to be careful. But the way it's gotten phrased, it seems like those unscrupulous ones are hiding around every corner and lurking under every rock, just waiting to ambush poor, little junior high baseball players on their way home from the game. So the moral here, it seems, is never trust women! They always lie and cheat and scheme. Never do anything they say or take any advice from them!
...Oh, snap!
"So, "I am woman, hear me roar," and all that -- yes -- but from the bleachers when your kid's batting, not into the pillow lest Wonderful Man's neighbors assume there's a crime in progress...that is, beyond parental neglect."
You skipped one baseball game? OMG, you're a bad mother!!!
"Instead of trying to relieve your guilt (you do feel some guilt, right?) by confessing to your kid, think remorseful thoughts, and make it up to him in time and attention."
Because, remember, honesty is a bad thing. This cannot be emphasized enough. And by the way, you should feel devastated for your horrible behavior. Seriously, unless you constantly go through life miserable, you are sub-human. Trying to work out a balance that allows everyone to be happy is subverting the natural order. Misery and unhappiness must rule in all corners of the world!
"As for how you can have children and sex dates, too, was it too much for your lust-addled brain to figure out that you can swap babysitting hours with some other sex-mad single mom?"
Has it been made clear that you must now live in shame? Seriously, if you aren't wearing a scarlet letter yet, you should be. Misery! Unhappiness! They must be spread! Their work must be done!
Balancing Act, if you're reading this, ignore Alkon's adivice. Tell your son that you're seeing someone you like very much. Tell him you have been having trouble prioritizing how to spend time and that you are not trying to neglect him or treat him unfairly. Apologize for the mix up and work with him, and your boyfriend, to set up a schedule that meets everyone's needs. If your boyfriend is someone who's going to be around long-term, then he's going to need to be someone who will fit into your whole family, kids included. An honest apology will do you miles more good in the long run because you will demonstrate that you are truthful and reasonable when you make mistakes, and it make make your children less inclined to fear coming to you with theirs.
But, seriously, don't lie. Your kids spend all their time with you, looking up to you, and knowing your routine. If anyone's going to catch you out, it would be the people who know you best. Be honest.
Alice at June 17, 2009 11:07 AM
"Cool Mom Syndrome, treating your children like they're your adult friends, only shorter" is SUCH a great line!
I have friends who refer to this as the Gilmore Girls Syndrome, by which divorced women regress to the point that they come to confuse their kids for their younger siblings.
It seems to be especially pronounced, when it occurs, between mothers and young teen-aged daughters - hence the name.
Jack at June 17, 2009 11:59 AM
It's my experience that children don't really want honesty from their parents -- at least, not the kind of honesty we expect in mature, adult relationships. Billy Jr. doesn't need to know that Mommy and Daddy divorced because Daddy liked fucking dudes on the sides, and Mommy spent his college fund on pretty underwear when she was in her blue period.
Children want their parents to be stable and responsible and a little boring in a way they can count on.
LW, you don't need to bare your soul about one mistake. Just don't do it again.
MonicaP at June 17, 2009 12:12 PM
Children want their parents to be stable and responsible and a little boring in a way they can count on.
Responsible as in not owning up to the mistakes they made that led to a divorce, however embarrassing they may be? Responsible as in assuming that kids who grow up aren't actually growing up and always need to have the truth sugarcoated?
Mouse at June 17, 2009 12:24 PM
I'm with David M. and Kari - just say you ran some errands, and then do a better job of scheduling next time. Talking honestly to your kid about sex is not the same thing as telling him a bunch of stuff that is none of his business about YOUR sex life.
Pirate Jo at June 17, 2009 12:30 PM
"Apologize for the mix up"
See, this is the root of the problem. This is why her priorities are fucked up, Alice. If your kid is LOOKING for you at the game, you need to be there.
And, yeah, you can be honest about sex with your kids; but, the bottom line, it matters which kid, what age, blah, blah, blah. My daughter, at 20, can talk to me about my sex life and hers. My son, however, doesn't want to know shit.
kg at June 17, 2009 12:38 PM
Yes Mouse, exactly that - they're kids, they're not your therapists, confessors, or confidants.
Some of the most screwed-up women that I've met have been ones who's mothers shared every little detail of their romantic relationships with them. This caused these girls to be so jaded and insecure that they couldn't form decent relationships of their own.
Maurice at June 17, 2009 12:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with sugarcoating things a bit for your kids. Or even for grownups. When I wear an unflattering skirt, a good friend will tell me, "That's not your best style," instead of "My God, that makes your thighs look like tree trunks." There's such a thing as too much honesty.
MonicaP at June 17, 2009 1:03 PM
"See, this is the root of the problem. This is why her priorities are fucked up, Alice. If your kid is LOOKING for you at the game, you need to be there."
Her priorities are messed up because her children look for her at baseball games?
Baseball is hardly the most action-packed game in the universe. A little spurt of action happens, and then there's a lot of dead time. Junior high baseball has even more dead time than that. And it could have been a slow game. A kid at a baseball game has plenty of time to scan the stands. If the fact that her kid managed to look over the whole bleachers is your key evidence that her priorities are screwed up, then you have no evidence.
"And, yeah, you can be honest about sex with your kids; but, the bottom line, it matters which kid, what age, blah, blah, blah."
All of which should be the call of the mother, not some wacked out advice columnist whose best suggestion is to avoid telling your children the truth at all costs.
"My daughter, at 20, can talk to me about my sex life and hers. My son, however, doesn't want to know shit."
But since he apparently has made a decision not to be informed on it, he's clearly worked out you have one. And since you hardly seem distraught over that decision, I'm going to assume it didn't scar him for life to realize this. It is possible to be honest with people without going into graphic detail on every single thing.
Alice at June 17, 2009 1:18 PM
One point I'm glad you made was this woman's apparent ineptitude in making time for herself. She can't arrange to have a real date with someone, so she snuck off during her kid's ball game? Come on. Doesn't he ever spend the night at some other kid's house, have dinner with someone else's parents?
Anyway, if he isn't old enough to be left alone for a few hours, he will be in a year or two. He's in Jr. High, so that would indicate he's 12-13, assuming he's normal age for those grades.
Patrick at June 17, 2009 1:19 PM
Something tells me that Alice is the LW - she seems to be taking Amy's advice a little too personally ;)
Manny at June 17, 2009 1:37 PM
My, Alice, something sure got your back up, didn't it?
The key evidence for LW's priorities being screwed up was not that the kid was looking for her in the stands. It was that she wasn't in the stands. Yes, baseball can be boring to watch, especially if there are no beer and dogs to be had, but sneaking out for a tryst in the middle is bad form.
Would it do any good to for the LW to confess to her kid exactly what happened? It might make her feel better, but my guess is it would take considerable tact for her to phrase it in a way that didn't hurt her son's feelings. Remember, he's a junior high kid, not a mature adult.
Finally, nobody said LW was a bad mother. A parent who goofed, sure, but I don't know any parents who haven't. But Amy's point still stands: If you have kids, they get the priority. Whatever other stuff you want in your life needs to be worked in around the children's needs and schedules. As several commenters have suggested, that should get easier to do as the kids grow older and more independent.
old rpm daddy at June 17, 2009 1:49 PM
"Something tells me that Alice is the LW - she seems to be taking Amy's advice a little too personally ;)"
I guess that makes you Amy Alkon herself. (')_(')
"My, Alice, something sure got your back up, didn't it?"
All of which I detailed in my first post, so it's not like you're having to guess or anything.
"Would it do any good to for the LW to confess to her kid exactly what happened? It might make her feel better, but my guess is it would take considerable tact for her to phrase it in a way that didn't hurt her son's feelings. Remember, he's a junior high kid, not a mature adult."
A junior high kid is completely capable of telling the difference between the truth and a lie. And given that he's already partially caught her out in the skip-the-baseball-game-for-sex mistake, compounding the one error by lying to cover it up is not the right course of action. Unless you are saying that the LW should not act like a mature adult. I already said what I think she should tell him in my first post. Unless someone's hacked it, it doesn't say, "Graphically explain everything you did."
"Finally, nobody said LW was a bad mother. A parent who goofed, sure, but I don't know any parents who haven't. But Amy's point still stands: If you have kids, they get the priority. Whatever other stuff you want in your life needs to be worked in around the children's needs and schedules. As several commenters have suggested, that should get easier to do as the kids grow older and more independent."
None of the commenters did. Ms. Alkon, on the other hand... But what really gets to me is that she encouraged the LW to lie to her child. But hey! Lying's good, right? "I was just running some errands." Lie to them, and they'll thank you later for it.
Alice at June 17, 2009 2:00 PM
Mouse said:
"Way to go, Amy! You slutshame that selfish whore! After all, she probably only had the kid to get FABULOUS CASH PRIZES from his dad, just like all single mothers, and is probably doing the same to the new boyfriend."
Exactly...couldn't have said it better. I'm just glad that I won custody of my child so his mom can't pull the same routine on him...totally shameless.
Somone should contact the father about this and let him know so he can use this the next time she files for a modification for more child support. And no, I'm not in a MRA or any of that other crap. I am a concerned father who believes that parents need to be accountable for their actions.
mike at June 17, 2009 2:13 PM
Mike, is this an age thing or a geographic thing do you think? Or something else? I find it kind of fascinating because I believe you that this has been your experience, but it just seems so alien to me. Most of the women I know (20-40s, West Coast) are spending their time trying **not** to get pregnant (of course here are a few exceptions, mainly people who are married, and a few single ladies or gents who have adopted because they felt it was more morally correct for them. I don't think any of them are suing China for child support). I imagine back in the 1950s or maybe even '60s there were women who wanted to be mommies supported by a man, but it doesn't seem like life in this millennium. Or is it geographic? Dunno where you're located, but maybe the vast interior of this country is awash with ladies who didn't remember to go to college and get careers. But the majority? Or even a large number? Really? Wouldn't having a rewarding career and the family you want be more rewarding than getting knocked up by someone you didn't like in order to spend 18 years nurturing someone else you couldn't stand? Now **that** sounds like work!
anathema at June 17, 2009 2:30 PM
Children. She's got more than one kid here.
I ran out of gas! I had a flat tire! I didn't have enough money for cab fare! My tux didn't come back from the cleaners! An old friend came in from out of town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! IT WASN'T MY FAULT I SWEAR TO GOD!!!
Conan the Grammarian at June 17, 2009 2:45 PM
The thing is Alice, your own advice to this woman contains lies.
Tell him you have been having trouble prioritizing how to spend time and that you are not trying to neglect him or treat him unfairly. Apologize for the mix up and work with him, and your boyfriend, to set up a schedule that meets everyone's needs.
But it wasn't a mix-up or an error in prioritization, she'd deliberately, and with premeditation, left the game to be with Mr. Wonderful. That's what happened. Your version is deceptive.
So it seems that everyone's in agreement that complete candor isn't in the child's best interest.
I don't think that she's a bad person. She's obviously not comfortable with what she'd done. And it's not likely that she's going to do this regularly.
So why would she want to tie the acknowledgment of her new relationship to this incident? Because what it conveys is - when mom has a new boyfriend, she's going to abandon you. And I doubt that she wants her son to feel that this is the case.
Jack at June 17, 2009 2:54 PM
Mike said:
"Exactly...couldn't have said it better. I'm just glad that I won custody of my child so his mom can't pull the same routine on him...totally shameless."
Mike, did your incredible bitterness overload your sarcasm detector, or are you just dense?
"Somone should contact the father about this and let him know so he can use this the next time she files for a modification for more child support."
Because the child's mother having a quickie with her boyfriend is a good reason for the father to refuse additional financial support for his child.
"I'm not a MRA"
You sure walk and quack like one.
Cyberwulf at June 17, 2009 2:54 PM
"But it wasn't a mix-up or an error in prioritization, she'd deliberately, and with premeditation, left the game to be with Mr. Wonderful. That's what happened. Your version is deceptive.
"So it seems that everyone's in agreement that complete candor isn't in the child's best interest."
If you choose to skew my words so that you have the ability to read deception into them, that's fine. I can't stop you. But given that I'm neither suggesting she outright say she was doing something that she wasn't, nor am I suggesting that she give her son a blow-by-blow, then I'm going to choose to read yours as you seeing me say what you wish I were saying so that you can discredit it.
Clearly her priorities were mixed up and in error, which I believe she realized when she wrote for help. I doubt she figured she'd get such rubbish advice, though.
"I don't think that she's a bad person. She's obviously not comfortable with what she'd done. And it's not likely that she's going to do this regularly.
"So why would she want to tie the acknowledgment of her new relationship to this incident? Because what it conveys is - when mom has a new boyfriend, she's going to abandon you. And I doubt that she wants her son to feel that this is the case."
You're so right. "Not bad people" who make mistakes are not making more mistakes when they lie about them. Lying is not the cowards way out, so that she can avoid owning up to a mistake; it's the kinder, gentler way to parent! All these years I have valued honesty in the people that I trusted, I have been so insane. We should all just lie to each other.
Alice at June 17, 2009 3:35 PM
Alice-I'm open with my children about things. I discuss sex with them in an open and honest way. I do not however discuss my sex life with them, especially if I'm sneaking off for a quickie missing one of their activities. Your comment to Amy was very hostile. This woman wants to confess to her son that she left his game to go get laid. I didn't say she's a bad mother, but that was probably not the best parenting choice. My children have yet to be subjected to my romantic life in any way after being divorced for 8 years. Their father brings home the flavor of the week and it sickens them. When and if I meet a man who will be permanent and respect my situation, then my kids will be introduced. Until then, my kids come first at all times. My 14 year old son who I am close to told me the thought of some man touching his mom is gross. Should I sit him down and tell him that it really isn't, its two people sharing and that I love when he hits the G spot? Some things really don't need to be discussed with our kids, especially a teenage or pre-teenage boy.
Kristen at June 17, 2009 3:39 PM
"Your comment to Amy was very hostile."
Because Amy also words things so tactfully.
Kremlin at June 17, 2009 4:00 PM
Angry Alice writes:
Alice, you should be judiciously honest. Treating your children as "mature individuals" as you next advise doesn't mean telling them you got fucked really hard while you should have been at their game -- or telling them about your sex life at all. They don't want to know. They really, really, really don't. Especially if you just started fucking Joe what's his name who you met at the bar.
As for this bit you make light of: "There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine."
I'm probably proudest of this column for the inclusion of that bit of advice. Being honest with your sons should include that piece of information -- and as soon as they're approaching the age where they're could be having sex.
The hostility in Alice's comment bespeaks somebody who wishes they had a job as an advice columnist -- my job. They think it's easy, that it's just typing words on a page, and think they have something of value to say without spending any time reading, thinking or studying...just because they're who they are and they have a computer with a keyboard attached.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 4:04 PM
And she should consider what kind of man asks a woman to leave her kid at a field to come have sex.
Just about any straight man?
If he has any respect for her or her role as a mother he would be waiting for her to have some free time.
More like if she had any self-respect for herself and her own role as a mother. He's probably just picking up the cues from her. It doesn't sound like he coerced her, it sounds like she was eager to ditch her kid to run off and play around ... she behaves like that and you expect *HIM* to "respect" her "role as a mother", as if this is all his fault? People won't respect you if you don't respect yourself ... we teach the people around us how to treat us and what our values and principles are. What do you expect him to do, give her a lecture on how to raise children? In other words, to behave like her parent while she's behaving like a child?
Grouse at June 17, 2009 4:08 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654254">comment from AliceLying is not the cowards way out, so that she can avoid owning up to a mistake; it's the kinder, gentler way to parent! All these years I have valued honesty in the people that I trusted, I have been so insane. We should all just lie to each other.
This is the thinking of those who don't think very much.
Lying is sometimes called for. It's sometimes a better way to parent or be a partner to somebody.
For example, my boyfriend was in Detroit and I had a medical problem. Weird bleeding. I am fine now, but I told him I couldn't stay on the phone because I had to go to my writing cafe and get a seat. I actually buzzed on over to the emergency room (they told me I was okay to drive). On the way, I called my sister to tell her what was really going on. But, had I told Gregg, he wouldn't have been able to work, and he and Elmore had one afternoon to go through a particularly difficult passage. And he wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing from 2500 or whatever miles away. That night, when I was cleared by the doctor and back home, and fine, I told him what really happened. So, by lying, I was much more loving than I would have been by telling the truth in the moment. Judicious honesty, judicious lying -- this is what mature, wise advice is, not the cudgel of "Thou shalt not tell a lie" of the unthinking.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 4:12 PM
The hostility in Alice's comment bespeaks somebody who wishes they had a job as an advice columnist -- my job. They think it's easy, just typing words on a page, and think they have something of value to say without spending any time reading, thinking or studying..
Watch out, your ego's showing.
It's good to know that someone mature enough to dispense advice on relationships without any o' that fancy psychology book learnin' responds to criticism with "WELL UR JUS JELLIS!!!!1" like some bratty fourteen-year-old girl on LiveJournal.
Miss Bedlam at June 17, 2009 4:13 PM
Alice you're arguing like a crazy person.
I didn't skew your words. That's a quote from your first post!
Simply put, when she left the game it wasn't due to a mix-up. If she tells him that it was, per your advice, that is a lie. It's pretty simple.
And for all of your concerns about lying, you certainly don't seem to bothered to represent other peoples' arguments accurately.
Jack at June 17, 2009 4:14 PM
All these years I have valued honesty in the people that I trusted, I have been so insane. We should all just lie to each other.
Lame strawman and false dichotomy all in one.
She needs to behave like a mature adult. Your own son will not be able to respect you or your role as a mome if you become the 'goes from boyfriend to boyfriend fooling around instead of looking after her kids' type of mom, I've seen this kind of thing first-hand in friends. It certainly doesn't mean you have to watch every silly little ballgame, but jumping in bed with some random dude who came along because you have a crush on him, sneaking around like a teenager, it's selfish and a recipe for disaster ... step up and be a mom. Instead of driving over she could easily have called and said 'sorry, told my son I'd be at the game, I don't feel right about this'. Sucks, but that's what being a grownup is about.
Grouse at June 17, 2009 4:22 PM
"You should apparently never be honest with your children."
'Sorry I missed your game because I went over to my boyfriend's house for sex' isn't honest so much as hurtful...face it, you've just said that a shag is worth more than your kid's baseball game, which the LW obviously usually watches, or promised to watch,or her son wouldn't have been looking for her in the stands. The first deceit was when she ducked out when she said she'd be there. And no one said 'never' Alice.
Ask any child development expert, Alice...most kids are grossed out by the idea that their parents 'do it ' too, it's a stage they all go through. Why discuss your sex life with a kid going through this stage, which a junior high boy most likely is? Or for the sake of 'honesty' are you just going to disregard the age and maturity of the child so you can unload and feel better?
"you should never treat your children as if they could ever be mature individuals."
Not before their time.
Again, any child development expert or counselor will tell you that the worst thing a single mother can do (besides running the Dad down all the time) is to burden the children with issues they are not equipped to deal with.
'But the way it's gotten phrased, it seems like those unscrupulous ones are hiding around every corner and lurking under every rock, just waiting to ambush poor, little junior high baseball players on their way home from the game.'
When you give kids sex ed, are you planning on talking about next week, or a lifetime? Amy isn't saying that he'll have a condom stolen in 9th grade...
"You skipped one baseball game? OMG, you're a bad mother!!!"
No, I think the point was that the game was skipped without prior notice to the child 'Honey, I'm not staying for the game this week, I'll pick you up later' but by sneaking off and then coming back later and hoping he wouldn't notice, which of course won't work. That's the point....he expected LW to be there.
"Seriously, unless you constantly go through life miserable, you are sub-human. Trying to work out a balance that allows everyone to be happy is subverting the natural order. Misery and unhappiness must rule in all corners of the world!"
If the LW felt no guilt she would not have written....
'Apologize for the mix up'
That's euphemistic......it was a conscious choice, not a 'mix-up'...that's not lying?
You obviously are one of those people who don't understand the difference between lying and withholding unnecessary information. I know a lot of people like that, they blurt every detail of their lives to anyone and everyone in the name of 'honesty'. Personally I think it shows lack of discretionary skills. But to suggest that the child be told something that won't hurt him is to you, 'never being honest with your children'. I have a sibling like you and she drives me insane with her 'honesty' which basically involves cutting people to shreds right and left 'At least I'm honest' Uh-huh, honest with an EQ of 0.
Talk about amounts of stupid....
"If the dad wanted to be at the game, he would have been. Who says just because people divorce, they can't be at the same place at the same time? I recognize that you are a guy who is looking out for guys, but, look, there are a lot of dads out there who aren't as interested in their kids as probably you are."
Not saying the LW has (this is a bit of a tangent) but some women create such a hostile atmosphere that many dads just give up.There is that factor too, I've seen it done.
crella at June 17, 2009 4:27 PM
Anyway, if she really thought this 'wonderful' guy was wonderful enough to possibly be 'Mr Right Number Two', she wouldn't be behaving like this, she'd be thinking about ways to introduce him steadily as a potential proper steady new figure and role model in her son's life instead of thinking about how to sneak around and hide him --- she can call him "wonderful" all she wants to try rationalize and smooth her conscience by trying to legitimize it, but I bet deep down she knows this is a temporary fling, or she'd behave differently.
Grouse at June 17, 2009 4:28 PM
I'm behind Alice on this. Amy Alkon's advice isn't worth the bandwidth it takes to view it.
Balancing Act,
Outright lying to your kid about what you were doing will hurt the kid even more, especially he figures out he was being lied to. It's patronizing! Kids at this age tend to be very sensitive to when adults are patronizing them, and quickly ignore the patronizing adult... and ignore everything that the patronizing adult says to them. It's a slippery slope. Give them a reason to mistrust you, and everything you say down the line, like, "Doing drugs isn't good for you," and "Wear a condom when having sex," becomes suspect.
Be honest with your kid.
Of course, some sugar-coating is fine. Say something along the lines of, "I visited my boyfriend, and then went to the game." Then fill in details about the part of the game that you saw. End with an apology, and don't just promise not to skip out on him again, DON'T SKIP OUT ON HIM. He's proud of his accomplishments, respects you, and seeks your approval. Here's a suggestion: next time, bring your boyfriend to the game. You'll get to go on a date with your boyfriend, and you'll get to show your son how proud of him you are.
Not all is lost yet. It's possible to stop sliding down this slope.
Shiromi
Shiromi at June 17, 2009 4:33 PM
"Again, any child development expert or counsellor will tell you that the worst thing a single mother can do (besides running the Dad down all the time) is to burden the children with issues they are not equipped to deal with."
Gee, Crella, I'd really like to know which child development experts you're referencing. Perhaps you'd care to provide a link to a study from a reliable source to back up your claim?
Kremlin at June 17, 2009 4:38 PM
Kremlin, it's well known that burdening children with adult worries is not a good idea, and that many children of divorce suffer a good deal of stress listening to parents' talk of trouble in their jobs, boyfriend trouble etc.
crella at June 17, 2009 4:42 PM
I know nobody wants to hear it, but people who have children do have needs and wants and there are many times when the kid does not come first. If a parent becomes completely, totally kid-centered, that parent goes insane, fast. The problem is that our society has guilted parents into thinking that if they don't have their child totally over scheduled and overemphasized, they are bad parents. So she has adult desires and wants - why does that make her a slut? Because she had a lapse in judgment? Or because Mommy is supposed to be celibate forever if she's not married?
Yes, this woman's priorities are a bit out of whack if this is how she scheduled her dates. But maybe she cracked under the SuperMom strain. Maybe it has something to do with everyone's mantra, "the kids are always first". Always, no matter what. People who have no children seem perfectly comfortable preaching this when they have no experience with it. But the truth is, if Mom cannot take care of herself at all because she is so involved in kid extra curricular activities, maybe she'll break down and do something stupid (like this little number).
If she were honest with herself, she might make time in the schedule for her own needs, thus allowing her to handle things with her kids in a more responsible way. Everyone wins with decent planning and parents admitting their own needs.
I think she should not mention the actual sex part since this kid is in middle school and may already be insecure about a new boyfriend coming into Mom's life. If she is seriously thinking of telling her kid she was having sex, she needs a whack upside the head. That's just TMI, even from my best friend as to why she's late for coffee. But because the kid will know she's lying, she should tell him as much of the truth as is age-appropriate. Something like "I met someone I like and as a result, I am having some scheduling problems, honey. I thought I could handle both and it didn't work so well. I am sorry about that". And then maybe not commit to being at every single game, or try to work out another way to schedule seeing this guy.
Can we stop trying to stone this woman and actually help her? She needs assistance and perspective!
JenniferS at June 17, 2009 4:53 PM
Crella, you wrote:
"many children of divorce suffer a good deal of stress listening to parents' talk of trouble in their jobs, boyfriend trouble etc."
As a child of divorce and as a stepmother, I agree with this 100 per cent.
JenniferS at June 17, 2009 5:00 PM
Crella, I don't think telling your child you were with a new bo is going to cause them exhaustive worry or "burden" them to the point of psychological distress. Nor do I think any psychological study could ever prove that it was "the worst possible thing A SINGLE MOTHER [could] do [...]" without question.
That is, unless you've psychological evidence to the contrary you're not sharing with the class.
Kremlin at June 17, 2009 5:01 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654271">comment from Miss BedlamWatch out, your ego's showing. It's good to know that someone mature enough to dispense advice on relationships without any o' that fancy psychology book learnin' responds to criticism with "WELL UR JUS JELLIS!!!!1" like some bratty fourteen-year-old girl on LiveJournal.
What would be wrong with my "ego" showing?
Lots of people don't agree with me -- it's when the criticism is voiced the way Alice did that I can see this coming.
And regarding "without any o' that fancy psych book learnin'" silliness -- I just got back from the Human Behavior and Evolution Society conference, and today read two studies, two chapters from Denis Dutton's excellent book, The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution...after completing a column based largely on a meta-analysis by Catherine Salmon in another excellent book, Evolutionary Psychology, Public Policy and Personal Decisions, which she also edited with Charles Crawford.
I was actually going to get a degree in psychology and train at Albert Ellis' Institute, but Ellis himself advised me not to: "You know what you need to know; it would be a waste of time."
What's interesting to me is how so many people assume spending thousands on school is any sort of qualification of wisdom or ability, and how few people realize that you can educate yourself for the cost of books and conferences and e-mail to profs for their PDFs. Which I did -- and do.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 5:08 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654272">comment from ShiromiI'm behind Alice on this. Amy Alkon's advice isn't worth the bandwidth it takes to view it.
Interestingly, we suddenly have a slew of first-time commenters here. Alice called out the posse, perhaps?
If my advice "isn't worth the bandwidth..." why are you here?
And your fantastic advice is...telling your kid you got fucked during his game, and mommies have needs?
Furthermore, you don't bring your "boyfriend" (of a week) to meet your kid. Please, please tell me you don't have children.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 5:13 PM
Kremlin, you don't have kids, do you?
Flynne at June 17, 2009 5:42 PM
"Crella, I don't think telling your child you were with a new bo is going to cause them exhaustive worry or "burden" them to the point of psychological distress.|
That's not what I said, is it? Telling your child you ducked out of his baseball game to have sex is. That's 'beau' by the way. The other issue I was addressing is young sons and daughters in effect becoming surrogate spouses, listening to all their tales of woe with the child, having the child step into an adult role as the parent's confidant much as she would a girlfriend. There is on reason for this mother to share her sex life with her son.
'Nor do I think any psychological study could ever prove that it was "the worst possible thing A SINGLE MOTHER [could] do [...]" without question.'
Willful misreading of what I stated. Scroll up and read it again.
crella at June 17, 2009 5:45 PM
Looks like we got another marginal thinker here.
She already fucked up. She needs a way out of it that saves face without hurting Johnny's feelings.
How is "I had to run an errand, I'm sorry." a lie?
She ran an errand. She needed to get an itch scratched. Her son doesn't need to know the details.
Although if you wanna have it Alice's way, think of how you'd react if YOUR mom said "I cut out on the game to suck some dick."
Because that wouldn't make you think any less of her, would it?
Stupid and cocksure is no way to go through life, Alice.
brian at June 17, 2009 6:08 PM
There's been a rash of that lately hereabouts.
It's why I've decided to start punching douchebags.
brian at June 17, 2009 6:11 PM
Wow. Boy y'all are just bound and determined to interpret "be honest with your son" as "make sure you tell him absolutely every dirty thing you and Mr. Wonderful did" aren't you? Seriously, is every single person here incapable of making a "broad stroke" description? 'Cuz there really are points between "outright lie" and "every single detail." I promise. Of course, ignoring that would justify the lying. Which I notice, Ms. Alkon, you don't seem hesitant to do. At least you're consistent. It's not much, but still.
After skimming, I'll respond to a couple comments.
"Lots of people don't agree with me -- it's when the criticism is voiced the way Alice did that I can see this coming."
So, it's fine when people criticize you, but they have to be super polite while you can be as rude as you like? Yeah, that's not a double-standard at all. If you want to dish it out the way you do, sugarpea, you can't expect not to have to take it sometimes.
"If my advice 'isn't worth the bandwidth...' why are you here?"
You know, I doubt I or Shiromi are first people to ever criticize you, but it is hilarious that you actually responded with the "don't like; don't read!" of the hack writer.
Alice at June 17, 2009 6:30 PM
'If you want to dish it out the way you do, sugarpea, you can't expect not to have to take it sometimes.'
That's her job, what's your excuse?
crella at June 17, 2009 6:54 PM
"What's interesting to me is how so many people assume spending thousands on school is any sort of qualification of wisdom or ability, and how few people realize that you can educate yourself for the cost of books and conferences and e-mail to profs for their PDFs."
You're absolutely right! What am I wasting my time for? Tell you what, I'm dropping out of pre-vet today and setting up shop in a private practice out of my apartment! So, who wants to be the first to volunteer their pet for me to perform surgery on with my self-taught skills? I assure you, I've watched people doing it and looked at a bunch of very educational pictures in books.
VB at June 17, 2009 7:13 PM
The most ridiculous part of this is that people are actually taking your advice, Amy. Your fat-hating, racist, misogynistic advice.
Good. God.
Weaver at June 17, 2009 8:32 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654316">comment from VBDo tell which website sent all you angry-lady first-time visitors over. You all have the same sense of rage -- would to love to know where it was manufactured.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:21 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654322">comment from WeaverThe most ridiculous part of this is that people are actually taking your advice, Amy. Your fat-hating, racist, misogynistic advice.
If you're going to call me names, at least detail why you think I'm all of those things. And do tell who sent you over. And if you are fat, I recommend you read Gary Taubes Good Calories, Bad Calories. I don't "hate" fat women -- I find it unnecessary for them to be fat, and sad that they are, as it generally hurts their chances for finding a man and in many other areas of life.
And I believe in meritocracy, and I'm against affirmative action, and I find it insulting as well, and I have a program at an inner-city school to help demystify making it so kids, many from black families, will see what's possible for them with hard work.
Misogynistic? Perhaps because I stand up for men's rights when feminists don't care a whit about paternity fraud and other injustice against men. If you are for justice and against discrimination, you are that way across the board. If you are for women only or men only, you're merely part of a special interest group crusading for equal rights when what you really want is special privileges.
All of you nasty anonobroads posting here today disgust me.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:31 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654323">comment from Amy AlkonAngry broads are coming over from here:
http://whygodwhy.forumotion.com/subcultures-f9/amy-alkon-fat-hating-advice-columnist-t173-50.htm
I could tell this was agenda-driven.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:35 PM
Amy - how many IP addresses are they coming from?
Alice - are you saying you should never lie to your child? Does that leave out the tooth fairy?
I can't think of any way to be "honest" with a 12 year old about what mom did that isn't gonna skeeve the kid out. No matter how you phrase it, you're telling the kid that your sex life takes precedence over him.
News Flash - YOU DON'T GET TO DO THAT. Once you make the kid, your life's priority list looks like this:
Kid, house, family, self.
You aren't allowed to put yourself first until that kid is on his own.
brian at June 17, 2009 9:39 PM
Fascinating. It appears that you've been set upon by the she-woman child-hater's club.
Interesting that a bunch of women who hate children are giving a woman with no children shit about child-rearing advice.
At least Amy likes children, so there's that.
Oh, and the bulk of the commenters over there; teenagers.
brian at June 17, 2009 9:43 PM
If my advice "isn't worth the bandwidth..." why are you here?
Because you wrote all of this, to put it in Weaver's words, "fat-hating, racist, misogynistic advice." Because you refuse to accept that not all people fit into their neat little stereotypes. Because it's about time someone called you on it.
And your fantastic advice is...telling your kid you got fucked during his game, and mommies have needs?
Where did you get that? I believe my words were, "I visited my boyfriend, and then went to the game." I think you're confusing me with some of the other commenters.
Furthermore, you don't bring your "boyfriend" (of a week) to meet your kid.
Of the week? To me it sounded like she likes this guy a lot. Even, loves this guy. She wanted to be with this guy so much that she skipped out of her kid's game. She might want to marry him! Introducing him to her son early on will make the potential "new daddy" transition easier. And if the relationship doesn't work out, oh well. It's fine for the kid to know. It'll teach him what to do in the same situation. He's in junior high, and as any junior high schooler will tell you, that's almost high school. He's about to enter the dating world himself. It's ridiculous to assume that he's not thinking about these things already. Wouldn't you want an open relationship with your children, so that they feel comfortable coming to you with questions about relationships and sex? Isn't a parent a better source of relationship advice than other kids at school, or some stranger who believes women should be as beautiful as they were on their wedding days the rest of their married lives for the sexual pleasure of their husbands?
Seriously, the crap you feed people makes me want to start burning bras.
Shiromi at June 17, 2009 9:46 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654332">comment from ShiromiI understand you're all being sent here by a website where there are apparently a lot of fat women who are furious that I don't toe the PC line. I feel for you, ladies, and if you read the Donut Seem Unfair column somebody there got enraged by, you'll see the science about how to eat to not be fat. Then you don't have to pretend fat is beautiful and I'm a terrible person. Being fat hurts your ability to get a man and have a relationship unless you manage to find a fat fetishist. No reason for this, except that you've been sold a bill of goods by the medical establishment. Spend your time reading this book linked in below instead of dropping angry turds in my comments section. No need to be a fatty -- Taubes has the science on why you're fat and how to be slim without dieting or exercise.
Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health (Vintage) by Gary Taubes.
Oh, and PS Nobody burned bras. It's a myth, like the notion that fat is beautiful. And it is -- per David Buss' research, where food is scarce. In certain places in Africa, women gorge themselves to please men. They are hugely obese. Just as women here starve themselves, because in a culture where food is plentiful, it is high-status to be thin, and men want high-status women.
If you want to debate me, all you angry ladies coming over here, do it on the points. Otherwise, we just get that you're incapable of rational argument and kind of a bore.
And regarding Dan Savage and me being a perfect pair, I love Dan, and I'd lick his hairy balls, but for the fact that he's gay and his boyfriend probably wouldn't be too happy about it.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:56 PM
"Alice - are you saying you should never lie to your child? Does that leave out the tooth fairy?"
What about the Tooth Fairy? My parents certainly didn't tell me there was any real tooth fairy. Hell, I was always told there was no Santa Claus. And I have no intention of doing otherwise with my kids.
"I can't think of any way to be 'honest' with a 12 year old about what mom did that isn't gonna skeeve the kid out. No matter how you phrase it, you're telling the kid that your sex life takes precedence over him."
Given that that's what happened, the rest of your post makes no sense. You are trying to make the case that she shouldn't have put her own needs before her child's while simultaneously arguing that she should be able to lie to escape her son's justifiable anger that she did so! I'm not sure you could tie yourself into more knots if you tried.
Alice at June 17, 2009 9:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654335">comment from ShiromiOh, and "racist"? Sorry, where does race come into play here? Did they tell you in women's studies that was good to throw in?
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654338">comment from AliceYou are trying to make the case that she shouldn't have put her own needs before her child's while simultaneously arguing that she should be able to lie to escape her son's justifiable anger that she did so! I'm not sure you could tie yourself into more knots if you tried.
Her kid feels what he feels. Telling her kid she got fucked -- some strange guy was more important to her than he is -- is going to be helpful?
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 10:01 PM
Brian said: "Interesting that a bunch of women who hate children are giving a woman with no children sh*t"
Another said that there's nothing wrong with her taking time for herself. True but it's been used with ill motive.
Feminists have been pumping that message into mothers for decades.
To indulge women who see themselves as toiling martyrs for their children who never get "time for me".
It furthers their feminist agenda, to teach women to be self-absorbed and to ignore their children...ultimately building up the taxpayer-money-leeching entities that call themselves "pro women" groups.
When you say "child hating" it ties in. Feminists have literally brainwashed young women into being child-haters.
Children require selflessness, a humble and giving personality. The polar opposite of what feminists want women to become.
"A strong independent woman" by the feminists definition is a "stubborn, egotistical, self-centered, antagonistic, meddling jerk".
On subject...I'm sure you can find more appropriate times to date than during your kid's sports games. Not that it's some unforgivable sin but you're obviously feeling guilty about it or you wouldn't have written in about it. So change it. Easy enough.
Mememememe at June 17, 2009 10:43 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654368">comment from Amy AlkonFor the vandals who are coming over here en masse to leave "spam" on my site, here's a note from another entry on why you're being IP banned.
No, you don't have a right to vandalize my site, or to comment here whatsoever.
I'm sorry you ladies are fat -- I've put out the research by Gary Taubes on how the American diet is based on "science" not science, and how you can lose weight and be attractive to men. I suggest you put your time into reading his book instead of trying to muck up my comments section.
Here's that post from another entry:
I didn't IP ban anyone because they disagreed with me -- disagreement and the disagreeable are welcome here. In fact, I was just laughing with my boyfriend about how a commenter named Martin once called me "a clueless cunt" and I thought that was funny. You angry ladies are IP banned here because you sent people over to spam my comments section -- there were several calls to action for that on your site. Individuals who come here are welcome to state their minds. Groups sending people over to try to muck up my site can kiss my pert, skinny white ass. Oh, and Mafi, you're IP-banned, too.
P.S. Why is it that none of you are able to post in your own names? I write everything I post or print in my own full name because I stand behind everything I say. Oh, and regarding this from your comment turd, Mafi: "Oh no, are you gonna call me a fat Amazon bitch now because I pointed out some of your blatant bullshit." I have yet to see where you did anything of the kind. No substance, just sentences like the above. It's a pity you didn't point out my allegedly "blatant bullshit" before I heaved your IP. Oh well!
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 11:36 PM
I consider myself a pretty honest and outspoken person, but I find honesty as a blanket policy to be a pretty selfish and lazy way of thinking. Selfish because it's often done to alleviate the speaker's own conscience at someone else's expense, and lazy because it allows the speaker to say whatever the hell first pops into mind without considering the impact and subtleties of what they're saying. Telling your kid about your sex life is the equivalent of walking up to an overweight person on the street and telling them to lose some weight fatty, and why doncha get a new haircut while you're at it?-it's slapping someone in the face with information that they don't need to hear. Maybe it's the the truth, but who asked?
Putting this in the kid's perspective, I'm 18 years old, know all about birds and bees and yada yada, recognize that my parents have a great relationship, but I don't want to hear about them having sex. Ever. I mean, I know they've done it twice-me and my little sister-but I try to not think about that. That would go for a hundredfold if I was 6 years younger and the sex was happening between my mom and some dude who was not my dad. Ew. As far as the LW's concern that her son will be getting the wrong idea about sex, well no one wants to think about sex in terms of their parents, period. And how does sneaking off to have sex with someone you're not in a relationship with give your kids the "right" idea about sex?
Oh, and I think that Amy is awesome, and that people who insist on telling their kids the "truth" about Santa Claus are self-righteous douchebags.
Shannon at June 17, 2009 11:52 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654370">comment from ShannonShannon's right on. Especially with this:
I consider myself a pretty honest and outspoken person, but I find honesty as a blanket policy to be a pretty selfish and lazy way of thinking. Selfish because it's often done to alleviate the speaker's own conscience at someone else's expense, and lazy because it allows the speaker to say whatever the hell first pops into mind without considering the impact and subtleties of what they're saying.
I consider it an act of friendship to tell friends when they're doing something screwed up, but only if they can listen to what you're saying and benefit from it. I actually seek out criticism from people whose minds and/or literary judgment I respect, like my boyfriend.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 11:55 PM
Okay, fine. I come over with my own name. I'm not comfortable with it, but it seems to be the only way you'll pay attention to me. For the record, I'm not fat - I'm 5 foot, 1.5 inches, with 118 pounds to my name. If that's fat, there's a problem. Nor do I hate kids - I volunteer with Scouts, and have been a camp counselor in the past.
Why was there a call to come over en masse? Because, frankly, a lot of us were pissed. Yes, we're not always the most polite about expressing it.
I really can't agree with the advice you gave here. Maybe it's due the the way my parents raised me, but if something occured and they messed up? I never got a full explanation, but I got enough to go "Oh, okay." Better to hear "I'm sorry - I couldn't pick you up as promised because I forgot the stadium you were playing at/was asked to stay behind @ work @ the last minute/etc" than "Sorry. Traffic held me up." (We did not have cell phones, so often these comments were when I was already pissed off and looking for to argue. Cool, simple honesty prevented just that)
What Alice suggested, as I understood it, was for the women to tell her son that she had messed up, priority-wise. Something the woman herself had implied in her request for advice. That is a mix-up, in a sense. Alice then suggested apologizing to the kid (without giving explicit details), and attempt to avoid making the same mistake in the future. How is that poor advice?
It seems fairer to the son than how I interpreted yours, which seemed to be "Never admit you can make a mistake. Never admit you might be looking for a love life and it occasionally screws with your priority system." About the only thing I agreed with you was your suggestion to try to do some advance-planning for next time (which you and Alice both advised, in different wording, btw).
On a final note, it seems in poor form to insult the individual asking for advice.
(As for my views on your other columns, I will post them on your columns, if I am not IP banned.)
Kate at June 18, 2009 12:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654374">comment from KateYou're posting on topic, and while I know you came over with Alice and the nutbags, you don't seem to be posting as part of this group call to screw up my comments section. I don't have a problem with comments like yours.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 12:14 AM
"Why was there a call to come over en masse? Because, frankly, a lot of us were pissed."
Charmed lives.....there is SO MUCH else to be pissed about in this world. God luv ya. I feel for you all. You (collective) couldn't believe she told you not to read it if you don't like it. Why is that so astounding? I don't go round poking pins in my eyes or putting bamboo under my fingernails,so it Amy's column is so tortuous to read, don't. Makes sense to me.
Putting up someone's picture and ridiculing is strikes me as supremely childish...I don't see any of your pictures up there. Make it even and fair, get your pictures up and give Amy a chance to review your looks (crickets chirping).
It's this kind of shitty behavior that makes it impossible for me to take you seriously in any respect. By acting like schoolyard brats you undermine any valid points you might have been making.
crella at June 18, 2009 2:15 AM
What's interesting to me is how so many people assume spending thousands on school is any sort of qualification of wisdom or ability, and how few people realize that you can educate yourself for the cost of books and conferences and e-mail to profs for their PDFs. Which I did -- and do.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 5:08 PM
------------------------
A degree is typically Ivory Tower learning.
Actual practice is usually way different than the real world. Like Will Hunting in (Good Will Hunting) says 'you realize you could have gotten the same education at the local library for some over due charges.'
Degrees also a lot different than real world experience.
Hope this is a good analogy.
A famous karate fighter was asked if he would pick your average Blackbelt in a fight against your average street fighter. He said he would take a street fighter everytime. Asked why he said "your street fighter has real experience and knows he is going to get hit. He just knows he has to give more than he takes. Your average black belt does kata's in the gym and never gets hit or taken off his feet. The first time the black belt gets hit or gets taken off his feet he forgets everything he was ever taught."
David M. at June 18, 2009 4:33 AM
And regarding Dan Savage and me being a perfect pair, I love Dan, and I'd lick his hairy balls, but for the fact that he's gay and his boyfriend probably wouldn't be too happy about it.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 9:56 PM
LOL! Almost upchucked my coffee!
You. Caught me off-guard on that one. I will have silent chuckles throughout the day.
Keep up the good work.
David M. at June 18, 2009 5:11 AM
A classic left attack.
Mischaracterize what someone says to make them sound like a totally insensitive ogre and then attack them en masse.
David M. at June 18, 2009 6:11 AM
"She wanted to be with this guy so much that she skipped out of her kid's game. She might want to marry him! Introducing him to her son early on will make the potential "new daddy" transition easier. And if the relationship doesn't work out, oh well."
Wow! Just Fucking Wow! Please, please, please, please, please tell me you do not have kids! PLEASE!
PLEASE...
kg at June 18, 2009 6:50 AM
Wow. Look at the shit I miss when I turn off my computer.
MonicaP at June 18, 2009 7:24 AM
I always let my kids know when I would be leaving them at some activity. (No, it was never for a nookie run. Three kids, two parents, different activities, different places and different schedules meant a lot of driving and even more coordination.) That, I think, is simply good manners.
As for the rest, it's certainly none of their business.
Were it me, I'd apologize and promise it wouldn't happen again. People generally appreciate reliability, even kids.
MarkD at June 18, 2009 8:53 AM
As others have said, tell the kid you had to go on an errand. I'm amazed that a mother would find this so difficult; her (private!) sex life and her son's sex education are two separate things. Sheesh!
Thanks, Amy, for being a sensible and "fat-hating" advice columnist who introduced me to lots of good reading. I'm a particular fan of the Drs. Eades and I'm healthier and slimmer as a result.
Sue at June 18, 2009 9:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654452">comment from SueThanks so much, Sue. I've been telling the ladies (here and when they e-mail me) that it's possible to not be fat and without enduring dietary torture and exercising four hours a day, then directing them to Taubes. I think they'd rather hate on me -- probably, in many cases, because they gave up on ever getting thin, and decided to attach to the message of "fat acceptance," etc. Of course, you can accept your fat all you want, but it's going to make things hard for you on the mating market. And it's hard enough to find a great partner without your looks working hard against you.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 9:31 AM
That's not how she deals with criticism, it's how she deals with douchebags.
There's a difference between 15 comments that criticize, and 200 comments that say "you're ugly and your mother dresses funny".
The whole purpose of which is to make sure that no actual debate can happen because there's too much noise.
brian at June 18, 2009 9:49 AM
I never understood people who come onto a site only to complain about the host. If they are so offended then they should go read Dear Abby or some stupid advice column in Glamour telling them 65 ways to please a man. These commenters are not interested in a discussion or even a solution. They just seem to like the sound of their own voice, or in this case, the look of their font. Anyone familiar with Amy knows she tells it like it is. You can disagree with her advice if you like, but if you are offended, then don't read her column. Simple enough? And Amy, you also made me spit out my coffee while reading your "lick his ball" comment. Thanks for the laugh!
Kristen at June 18, 2009 10:34 AM
As a divorced father with children, two of them teenage girls, I am astounded at the sheer ignorance of Alice and her cronies. The very idea of being completely truthful (even without the details) for any human that has lived long enough to learn language, is a lie in itself. Any secret kept by definition is "untruthful" because you haven't given full disclosure. And every man, woman and child have secrets they keep. Knowing when and where the truth should be unfolded is a learned skill.
Responsible adults learn the nuances of this complex human interaction. We read the body language of others and learn what not to say based on what our pre-conceived (through life experience) notions of their reaction may be, and react appropriately. Clearly Alice, and friends, simply hasn’t learned that empathy towards other human’s feelings is a wonderful character trait to have.
What is not in good character is unburdening yourself of your own guilt at the expense of someone else. When people behave in this manner it smacks of narcissism; their guilt and feelings become more important than anyone else’s. This is the highest form of self flattery.
Alice’s assumption that adults should always be truthful is as immature as it is ignorant. This “holier then thou” attitude is frightening to say the least.
Any parent that believes that there is ever a time when they are more important then their children should have there parent card revoked immediately. I have watched my children suffer through this very way of thinking by their mother. The consequence of her behavior has adversely affected their lives and has created serious trust issues between mother and daughters.
Being untruthful to your children to spare their feelings is noble. Keeping your guilt to yourself, correcting your behavior and learning from your mistakes, without undo burden for those you love, is altruistic.
Alice and friends, it’s time you grew up and joined the rest of the mature adult community. Not for us, but for the sake of your own children.
P.S. Amy, I absolutely love your column and your blogs, I don’t always agree, but I’m always entertained!!!
Ed Nesbit at June 18, 2009 10:40 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654486">comment from Ed NesbitThanks, Ed - and wise words.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 10:49 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654487">comment from KristenAnd Amy, you also made me spit out my coffee while reading your "lick his ball" comment. Thanks for the laugh!
heh heh...thanks - going to tell Dan when I see him in a few weeks at the alt weeklies conference. He'll be horrified -- and horrifying Dan Savage isn't easy to do. He usually spends a good part of the awards ceremony, which he usually hosts, poking fun at me -- which I love.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 10:51 AM
Wow. I am behind Amy here. Side thought - LW sez, "my only option was to pop by during my son's junior high baseball game." Wrong. options include a. have BF come to game (that assumes "come over" meant something besides "booty call"); b. delay gratification & get together another time ... etc.. I'm a Zen kinda guy; be with who you're with. If you commit to being at your son's game, be at your son's game. Oh, BTW - I absolutely agree that "honesty" does not mean telling the kid all the graphic details ... it's none of his buisness beyond, "I had to go meet someone." Sheesh.
mr. teflon at June 18, 2009 10:56 AM
I know nobody wants to hear it, but people who have children do have needs and wants and there are many times when the kid does not come first. If a parent becomes completely, totally kid-centered, that parent goes insane, fast. The problem is that our society has guilted parents into thinking that if they don't have their child totally over scheduled and overemphasized, they are bad parents. So she has adult desires and wants - why does that make her a slut?
Why does everyone seems to think it's either one or the other? Why does everyone think you either have to be Mrs Pure-Perfect-Mom or Mrs Total-Slut-Neglects-Her-Kids? Moms can balance their "needs and wants". They don't have to lovingly attend every bloody game, they don't have to never have sex ... but no matter how great a mom she is, telling your kid you ditched his game that you'd promised to attend because you preferred to go f-ck the latest boyfriend *is* bad parenting - period ... that shouldn't be hard to see.
If she's at all serious about the guy, and she wasn't just thinking about herself, she would actually be writing for advice worrying about the effects of her new relationships on her son and on how to bring in this new father figure as a role model that he will accept (not writing for advice on "gee should I tell my kid whenever I have a fuck"). *That* is what non-self-centered divorced moms just naturally usually worry about when they meet a legitimate new guy. That doesn't mean she never has to have sex.
The "wrong idea" she is worried about giving is the idea of having casual sex with somebody you don't care about and don't see yourself having a future with ... if she thought this was real relationship material, she would be less worried, because no parent worries that their children might learn that sex is some private intimacy that adults in proper long-term relationships share.
Sure she can have a private life, and she can have casual sex, sure, but it's called a "private life" for a reason.
Who honestly thinks telling your child that you broke your promise to attend his game because you'd rather have a casual fuck with some bloke you hardly know, is a good idea. If the kid was looking for her in the stands, he cared that she would be there, and she must've known that ... she's going to deliberately hurt this child just because she feels guilty now, that's wrong.
Grouse at June 18, 2009 11:11 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654493">comment from GrouseWho honestly thinks telling your child that you broke your promise to attend his game because you'd rather have a casual fuck with some bloke you hardly know, is a good idea. If the kid was looking for her in the stands, he cared that she would be there, and she must've known that ... she's going to deliberately hurt this child just because she feels guilty now, that's wrong.
Exactly.
I went with a friend to his kid's game. And this guy isn't one of those overprotective parents that hovers over his kid every second of the kid's life, but when the kid was up to bat, he'd look over to his dad -- it meant something to him that the dad was there.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 11:21 AM
What is not in good character is unburdening yourself of your own guilt at the expense of someone else. When people behave in this manner it smacks of narcissism; their guilt and feelings become more important than anyone else’s.
Hear, hear - it's just being self-centered.
I'm a single guy in my 30s and have met quite a few single moms and wanna-be-moms in social circles (I have a reasonable amount of money, and am not too bad looking etc. - according to many of them anyway - so I do get some interest) ... but what's interesting to me is that it usually doesn't take long before you can start being able to get an idea 'how they think' - for some you can practically hear them thinking 'hmm, what kind of man would this make in my child's life, what kind of role model would he be', and so on (that for me is how a mom should be, and it seems natural to me that a real mom should be thinking those types of things when she meets a new guy she might be seriously interested in) ... others you can tell are barely thinking about their kids at all, and have little to no worry about what consequences their actions have on their kids. Not saying that's the LW necessarily - the fact that she feels guilt and wrote in, and that this doesn't sound like a regular pattern, suggests she probably isn't totally selfish.
Grouse at June 18, 2009 11:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654499">comment from Grousethe fact that she feels guilt and wrote in, and that this doesn't sound like a regular pattern, suggests she probably isn't totally selfish.
Agree, Grouse.
I have very strong feelings about what people owe their kids. I don't have kids (just kids who are friends) because I'm not up to the task of parenting. I do know what good parenting is, however, and on that subject, I'm just to the right of Dr. Laura.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 11:32 AM
And regarding Dan Savage and me being a perfect pair, I love Dan, and I'd lick his hairy balls
Eew, thanks, almost puked!
Grouse at June 18, 2009 11:36 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654502">comment from GrouseSorry, sometimes I just can't hold back.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 11:36 AM
“Any parent that believes that there is ever a time when they are more important then their children should have there parent card revoked immediately.”
Well said, these idiot parents who put themselves first irritate the fuck outa me. Like these kids asked to be here to begin with and then only when it’s convenient. We need a litmus test for parenting!!!
“Being untruthful to your children to spare their feelings is noble. Keeping your guilt to yourself, correcting your behavior and learning from your mistakes, without undo burden for those you love, is altruistic.”
That’s just fucking brilliant; imagine that learning from your mistakes. Who woulda thunk it. Sure as shit not the parasites like Alice and the LW. Sorry I missed picking you up and left you in the rain but I was giving Bob from the bar a blow job. Just apply some common sense for Christ sake.
Jack at June 18, 2009 12:50 PM
cyberwulf said:
Because the child's mother having a quickie with her boyfriend is a good reason for the father to refuse additional financial support for his child.
I think you are confused cyber. A quickie and the child support have nothing to do with eachother. I've had many of them myself. It is all fine and dandy to have a quickie...just don't be irresponsible and leave your child alone to get one. That actually is a good argument to bring up in court, and it seems like lately alot of the culprits are the custodial mothers who would rather have a sex life/be the party gal than pay attention to their kids.
Of course thats not everyone. There are many fine single mothers out there who I know of who are 100% involved in their childrens lives.
AS a man in this category of single parents, I know that every move I make and every word that comes out of my mouth is being scrutinized, recorded, and saved for yet another court date. Even having a girlfriend can be used against me. I won in an environment that was stacked against me, and I will not mess it up. I am the PTO president, coach the baseball team, den leader in the cub scouts, I make every play and recital and presentation. Hell, i should get the Dad of the Year award.
The point is that children need to see their parents when they are engaged in activities. They need to feel safe and they like knowing we are watching. You don't realize this until the next morning, tired and groggy and making breakfast, when your child says "Did you see me? Did you see me dad? That was a good catch wasn't it?" I can honestly look at my little guy and say "Yes son, that was a wonderful catch. I am so proud of you!"
mike at June 18, 2009 2:56 PM
Alright, I don't get it. I don't understand how being honest by saying, "I'm sorry, I went to go visit a friend. I screwed up" is a bad thing to a child. It's not a lie. Where in all of this does it say she has to completely reveal everything she did? It doesn't. The comment that spurred me to comment myself is from a reader: "Being untruthful to your children to spare their feelings is noble."
It's not noble; it's deceitful. The definition for noble which would apply here is "of an admirably high quality; notably superior; excellent". In effect, they are saying lying is noble. Isn't lying one of those things we want to teach our children NOT to do? We teach by example. While this woman has set a bad example by promising to do one thing (go to the baseball game) and then doing another (leaving), the advice here is to compound the problem by lying about it. I honestly don't get that.
What I think she should have done was admit she left to visit a friend (which is not a lie, and for those who say it isn't the complete truth, it's enough truth for a twelve year old to handle), apologize sincerely, and then amend her ways. If she was going to visit her "friend" again, arrange a babysitter. Or if she was serious about this friend, as someone suggested here, bring him to the game. There is NO REASON to lie in this situation. That people would suggest it, and then agree with the suggestion, I find personally disgusting.
MadMelodie at June 18, 2009 3:43 PM
MadMelodie,
I'm not referring to the LW; I was referring to Alice and her cronies that spammed Amy's site. Although the LW appears to be going down the same path and that path is dangerous one.
Being "deceitful" to your children (or anyone for that matter) to spare there feelings and/or prevent them from coming into harms way is noble (synonyms for noble include good and fine). So it could be stated as such: "Being untruthful to your children to spare their feelings is fine and/or good." Remember we are protecting them from harm. As a parent I have no compunction what so ever in deceiving my children to protect them.
Ex: You find out that you have lump in your breast; the Dr. suggests a biopsy to find out what it may be. Obviously upset your children ask what’s wrong. What do you tell them? I might have cancer (before it’s even confirmed) or would you say I’m fine kids no problems, just having an off day.
That mad Mel is the noble (GOOD) thing to do. You spared their feelings until such time as you know for sure (good news the tests are in, it’s benign). By being “deceitful” you have now also spared their fear, anxiety and sense of hopelessness during a time of uncertainty. That seems like a good thing to do to me.
This ignorant idea that we must be truthful at all times is unrealistic and at times damaging. Any time you are not revealing the whole truth you are being deceitful. However sometimes it is the noble (GOOD) thing to do.
Truthfulness and deceit are a far cry from lying. Lying by definition is “to fabricate a story that is false”. I know what I wrote and I never suggested lying as an alternative. Teaching your children not to lie is a completely different subject altogether.
Ed Nesbit at June 18, 2009 3:59 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654561">comment from Ed NesbitMadMelodie is one of Alice and her band of angryladies. I guess I forgot to ban her IP.
These ladies are giving me plenty of traffic -- and apparently checking back in constantly, and hey, I appreciate that.
What's hilarious is that they are, on their site, criticizing my appearance as a way to hate on me for suggesting that men don't like fat women and women who are fat should follow the science laid out in Gary Taubes' work (they never get around to posting that) in order to lose weight...so they don't have to pretend obese women are beautiful to anybody but fat fetishists, aka "chubby chasers."
Gotta love dim bunnies who are angry at me for my take on women's appearance -- and then post about my looks. Even said I look like a tranny. Of course, they all do it anonymously, no pictures along with their post, except of Star Wars characters, cartoon characters and the like.
And for women (whoops, "wymyn") who don't like my writing, they sure pay me a buttload of attention. There are currently nine pages there. And I only know this because a commenter here e-mailed to ask me for "the link to the tubs' website. I'm sure not spending my day on THEIR site like they are on mine...day and night.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2009 4:09 PM
There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine.
I do think this is a little over the top, Amy. While there are plenty of women who are careless about birth control, very few are going to deliberately get themselves pregnant for the child support, unless the man is very rich. The amount she'll get from an average guy isn't going to cover the cost of raising the kid, much less a life of luxury for the mom. And that doesn't take into account the difficulty she might have collecting what the court awards.
I suspect your view of this might be skewed by the number of guys who've written to tell you it happened to them. Remember that a)they're a very small percentage of the male population, and b)they might not all be telling the truth.
Rex Little at June 18, 2009 6:49 PM
I am a day late on this thread - but would like to add my "chime".
First to the LW - I am a single parent to a 13 year old. It is very important to him that I attend his events - he finds me and makes eye contact throughout his event. I would never dream of leaving when he expected me to be there watching. Do I sometimes put my personal needs on the back burner? Hell yes, that was what I signed on for when I decided to have him. Do I sometimes feel cheated that I do not come first? Hell yes. For about a second - then I get over myself and realize that raising him is the most important job I will ever have.
Bottom line is, if your child expected to see you in the stands during his game then you should have been there. Okay, you goofed, we all do because we are human. Should you tell him where you were? No. Should you apoligize? Yes, but since you are the adult in the relationship you really don't need to provide a long explanation. If I screw up I tell my son "Sorry, I screwed up and I will try very hard not to do so again. But, Mommee is human and makes mistakes sometimes." By middle school our children realize we are not perfect but we do owe them basic respect and should admit when we make a mistake. But they do not need all the details. Because they are the children and we are the adults. They must always know that they come first in our lives! Okay, I feel better now. :) Oh, LW, Honey, really, keep your panties up - if you are running over to see Mr. Wonderful for just a quick shag he probably isn't really Mr. Wonderful.
As to the crazy web site that is trashing Amy - you must all go visit and read and laugh and cringe. I thought it especially wonderful how they quote Amy out of context then go off on semi-literate tangents espousing hate and then the thread disintegrates into random verbal filth and inanity. Really entertaining in a Jerry Springer kinda' way. (Yes, please blast me for abusing Springer)
I enjoy reading Amy's column and all of the responses. I don't have to agree with any of you all the time. And if I don't like it I can close my web browser - just like switching the channel on the TV.
Leyahn at June 18, 2009 6:50 PM
Personally I don't believe people who say they don't lie. Everybody lies.
No I'm not projecting out of my own skeleton filled closet, although it is quite full :D
Everybody lies. Especially everybody who's going to respond to this comment with "well just because you lie doesn't mean the rest of us do"
There's nothing wrong with lying to protect someone's feelings, under the right circumstances.
Yes of course there are people who will use that as an excuse to lie for selfish reasons. But they're irrelevant.
When you're invited to someone's house and the wife cooks up a big meal for you and the rest, and she asks "How's the chicken?", and the chicken's tastes terrible...what do you say?
You lie. You do it out of respect for their feelings, for the work they put into making you a meal and for inviting you over.
If you're TRULY some sort of truth crusader then you're going to have to start responding to such questions with "Well Margaret this chicken tastes like sh*t and the potatoes are so lumpy I could go 4-wheelin' in em"
liarliarpantzonfire at June 18, 2009 8:10 PM
How do you know we don't do that, liar?
A at June 18, 2009 8:20 PM
Amy - I tuned in late but I have to say - Props to YOU for standing your ground with these weirdos!!!
AnJi at June 19, 2009 9:13 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654699">comment from AnJiThanks, AnJi. And unfortunately, I was using the wrong thing to ban comments -- Gregg figured it out later. Got all the angryladies banned.
Again, if you're a disagreeable individual with a disagreeable point of view, and you merely wish to state it here, you are entirely welcome to do so.
If, however, you are part of a mob which wishes to fuck up the discussion on my site by sending over trolls to spam it, you will be deleted and banned.
Amy Alkon at June 19, 2009 9:37 AM
Wow, there is some real hostility from these angryladies...must be feminists...can't imagine anyone being as unhappy and hostile as them...
Amy, I assume they are referring to you, but I must say, I have the exact opposite view of you! I think you are pretty hot actually! The one who is a real stick in the mud is that homely Jessica Valenti at Femifisting...and that Amanda Turcotte is not a head-turner either...
86 these morons...
mike at June 19, 2009 10:18 AM
"Hey, I'm Boomstick - I'm here all week, tip your waitress, try the veal." [sound of crickets chirping ...]
mr. teflon at June 19, 2009 10:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654726">comment from mr. teflon"Hey, I'm Boomstick - I'm here all week, tip your waitress, try the veal." [sound of crickets chirping ...]
Boomstick has been deleted and IP-banned. I do find it hilarious that feminists who are angry at me for being "lookist" (or whatever you call it for telling the truth about how men feel about fat women...so women can take steps to optimize their chances to get a man, using the science about how to lose weight I provide over and over on my blog and in Donut Seem Unfair?)...come on my blog and repeatedly attack how I look.
The sad thing is, I just went over there and saw a woman's post (at the end of a 10 page rant about me by dozens of angrywimmin) about the difficulty she has in losing weight. They're so busy posting angry little diatribes about me, they never notice that I put out the science of how to lose weight (contrary to the crap put out by much of the medical establishment -- which is actually not based in evidence, but the mere belief it's based in evidence).
PS Because you are "trying diligently" to lose weight doesn't mean men find fat women attractive or that it's wrong to tell the truth about how men feel.
Amy Alkon at June 19, 2009 10:30 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654729">comment from mikeAmy, I assume they are referring to you, but I must say, I have the exact opposite view of you! I think you are pretty hot actually!
Thanks -- and I was discussing this with a few friends this week -- I really like and appreciate men, and love my particular man. Women who are bitter like this often seem to have at root a real hatred of men.
Amy Alkon at June 19, 2009 10:38 AM
There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine.
I do think this is a little over the top, Amy. While there are plenty of women who are careless about birth control, very few are going to deliberately get themselves pregnant for the child support, unless the man is very rich. The amount she'll get from an average guy isn't going to cover the cost of raising the kid, much less a life of luxury for the mom. And that doesn't take into account the difficulty she might have collecting what the court awards.
I suspect your view of this might be skewed by the number of guys who've written to tell you it happened to them. Remember that a)they're a very small percentage of the male population, and b)they might not all be telling the truth.
Posted by: Rex Little at June 18, 2009 6:49 PM
----------------
Obviously a guy that has never been tricked into a baby by someone saying you don't have to use a condom I'm on the pill and they never were on the pill. Or someone that is paying more in child support than it actually costs to raise a child.
Ignorance is bliss.
David M. at June 19, 2009 11:54 AM
Wow, sorry I missed this thread the other day. Alice in her second post I believe stated the quote below. So pun intended or not thanks for the laugh Alice.
"Baseball is hardly the most action-packed game in the universe. A little spurt of action happens, and then there's a lot of dead time."
Right, so just as junior got a spurt of action when a grounder was hit to him at shortstop and he pulled off a perfect 6-4-3 doubleplay to end the inning and perserve his team's lead, mom was out getting a spurt(s) of love from the new boyfriend.
Of course reading further into this, perhaps Alice is describing her own sex life.
So in conclusion Alice dear, as a former teenage boy (and child of divorce), no she shouldn't be honest about where she was because it would show her disrespect to her son and creep him out.
Sio at June 19, 2009 12:35 PM
well said Sio!!!
mike at June 19, 2009 12:46 PM
Wow, it's incredible how the subject of lying creates such controversy on this site (I remember when Amy gave similar advice for a woman who wanted to tell her boyfriend that she thought he was ugly). For all of you who value "honesty" so much - if you always tell the truth 100% of the time, you have to be the rudest person alive, and I would never want to be friends with you! I could give examples, but liarliar already gave some good ones. I believe that lying is always wrong when it's done for personal gain. When it comes to other people's feelings, the question should be "if the truth helpful, or harmful?" When I was a child, I was not mad at my parents for telling me about Santa Claus - I was mad when they decided to tell me the truth! I plan to just let my kids figure it out for themselves, but as long as they want to keep believing, I will keep up with the lie. And also, every drawing, block tower or play-doh sculpture is always the most beautiful thing I've ever seen no matter what it actually looks like.
Karen at June 19, 2009 1:10 PM
David M said: "very few [women] are going to deliberately get themselves pregnant for the child support"
Women do it all the time, bro.
There is NO monitoring of where the mothers spend the money. Observe single moms who receive child support, whose kids have hand-me-down clothes on while Mom has new clothes, fancy hair-dos, money to party with, and so on.
Seen it a thousand times. Still do. (not the good moms of course)
Whether or not a mother gets child support, she still qualifies for:
Welfare, food stamps, WIC, low-income rent, and an array of additional "free" moneys. Courtesy of the taxpayers.
David M said: "The amount she'll get from an average guy isn't going to cover the cost of raising the kid, much less a life of luxury for the mom."
This would be true but...The average man, who makes minimum wage, will in fact be forced to give nearly all of his money to the mother, regardless if it leaves him homeless and without food. Leaving the woman with plenty of money, in addition to government aid, to spend on herself.
In other words, she can have $600 in welfare, $300 in foodstamps, $200 in WIC, free medical care for child AND her, while paying only $50 rent via low-income rent progs...and then have an additional $600 a month in child support (for one child, depending on the state).
She'll also qualify to get buy a new home at a very low cost, the difference being made up by the taxpayer, you and me.
There's every incentive for a woman to get pregnant for the money.
hundrednames at June 19, 2009 1:10 PM
David M: Sorry bro.
I see now that you were *quoting* Rex...not making those statements yourself.
I noticed it after I posted, so my comment is actually regarding statements posted by a Rex, not by David M.
hundrednames at June 19, 2009 1:14 PM
There's every incentive for a woman to get pregnant for the money.
They do it all the time - and have for centuries.
I wrote that advice into this column (and give it all the time) because I get so many awful stories from guys about how they were duped into becoming cash machines for the child of some woman who swore she was on the pill.
Unless a man has a vasectomy, he needs to always, always remember that he's at a woman's mercy in terms of pregnancies.
Amy Alkon at June 19, 2009 1:40 PM
I did not trap anyone into having kids although I am willing to admit that it was dumb of me to have 3 with my ex husband. I do not live a life of luxury, get my hair done regularly or nails, and I do not collect any checks from the government either. I pay as much for my children if not more than my ex and I also have a lot more responsibility than he does. I do not blame all men because my ex is a lousy dad and was a lousy husband. I made poor choices in my youth and I do take responsibility for that. However, while I don't think all women are out looking to trap a man so she can raise children all for a measly welfare or even support check, I do teach my sons to use condoms no matter what a girl says. If she gets pregnant, the decision on what to do is soley hers. If they want the kid and she doesn't they are screwed. If they don't want the kid and she does, they are screwed. Condoms aren't 100% but they should still be used as though their life depends on it, because the truth is it does. While I've never been sorry for having my kids my life was a lot harder than it needed to be. I don't want the same thing for them. When and if they decide to be parents I hope it is after careful thought and that it is a responsible choice by both parties involved.
Kristen at June 19, 2009 3:21 PM
Got all the angryladies banned.
In fairness, there do seem to be plenty of men on WGW. But you'd aroused their female cohort.
The forum's caption is A place to go to discuss everything awful which is probably a good indication of the sort of people they attract ;)
And take a look at the other topics they enjoy discussing - http://whygodwhy.forumotion.com/the-couch-f16/
Not a happy bunch, I'd say.
What's odd is that they employ the same style of diatribe on their forum as they had here. It's just a bunch of hysterical ranting. I suspect that they enjoy agitating themselves.
Jack at June 19, 2009 3:23 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1654808">comment from JackIn fairness, there do seem to be plenty of men on WGW.
They don't seem to be coming over here.
In fact, I get tons of letters from men thanking me for telling the truth about how men feel about fat, and for giving women a science-based way to lose weight without agony or lots of exercise.
Amy Alkon at June 19, 2009 3:49 PM
"There's every incentive for a woman to get pregnant for the money."
Simple fact is that if you pay people to do X, you'll get people who do X. Whether that be getting divorced or making babies (two things our legal system is set up to pay people to do).
xyz at June 19, 2009 9:04 PM
"Wow, did I do this wrong! I have worked my figurative ass off to climb up the corporate ladder in order to provide a better (and better) life for my son while banking my meager child support to help offset the cost of college tuition when the time comes."
No, you did it right.
That's another 'unintended consequence' of welfare - when you punish good behaviour and reward bad behaviour, people who were behaving well naturally tend to be more likely to become resentful and demoralized and less motivated to do the right thing. Downward spiral.
xyz at June 19, 2009 9:07 PM
"very few are going to deliberately get themselves pregnant for the child support"
Ha. Your innocent naivety is sweet.
xyz at June 19, 2009 9:08 PM
To be honest, the angry mob from hell was a stoopid distraction. The more they write, the stoopider they sound. Obviously, common sense isn't so common.
Amy, thank you for banning them.
TheHag at June 21, 2009 3:52 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/06/bad-news-bares.html#comment-1655015">comment from TheHagThanks, TheHag. People who "think" as a mob are usually the least interesting.
Amy Alkon at June 21, 2009 4:20 PM
Some women get pregnant for emotional reasons, not financial. They want to bind a man to them and this is the best way they know how. It doesn't matter to them that they guy really hates them, is mean to them and gives them nothing, he still comes around to see the kid (and probably a quickie) so that means he LOVES her. Pretty sad how delusional they are.
Chrissy at June 22, 2009 1:00 PM
Amy: "There are unscrupulous women out there with full pincushions and empty turkey basters who will turn him into an unwitting sperm donor, visiting dad, and cash machine."
Well said! All sons should certainly be taught this - among other tidbits - early and often. I always flushed immediately afterward. No trash can. No wrapped tissues...nothing. No sense giving an opportunity. Another item that goes right along with being responsible for your juices: realize that after conception she has legal choices - as a man, you don't.
Lance at June 22, 2009 2:06 PM
Hmm not a mom here (and not a member of the Amy-hating fat group) but IF I was, I'd have told my jr. high age son that I had to run an errand or two and sorry I didn't say anything beforehand and double sorry if I made him worry. I'd say that I caught the last part of the game though, and you were great! Tell me what I missed, please! That's an age appropriate response (imo). Then let the kid brag about his game! In the kids mind, that's all he cares about, "did you see me?" Most kids are of the "there is no "U" in mememe" majority. What mom did when she's running errands isn't his concern unless she was out buying him something.
The part where she has to meet this guy in secret sort of bugs me though. Why hasn't she invited him over for Sunday dinner to meet her son? If she knows him well enough for casual afternoon delights, she should also know him well enough to be introducing him to her family members. Does she doubt that this is a relationship that has a chance? It really sounds like she went over to his house specifically to have sex, the way she worded it. That's a wee bit on the trashy side I think.
The guilt is over this aspect, and coming clean to a jr. high kid over your debatably slutty choice is NOT the correct path.
If you are still seeing mr. invisible, LW, I'd say it's time you arrange for him to meet the most important man in your life and if he's not up to it, I'd slam the brakes on this relationship.
Tori M at September 18, 2009 8:44 AM
OH I know EXACTLY what the deal is with the 'OMGANGRY' crowd.
I have a theory that some have what is known as "Autistic Spectrum Disorder" to some degree. People with this disorder HATE lies. This could be why they are angered by advice that you should lie to your children. They also may have sensory issues that cause them aversion to children, especially babies. It would also appear that several of them, were not treated very nicely by their families while growing up, to varying degrees (and in some cases, that's REALLY sugarcoating it).
Secondary to this is the fact that many of them HATE generalizations. Especially about the fatness. Now there are genuine medical issues that can interfere with the ability to lose weight. I myself had one. It is an organism that I didn't know I had until recently, but that I've had for almost 20 years. It literally prevented me from exercising, and the prevalence of this organism is wider than is generally believed. You get it from tick bites. So yeah, if a particular person is overweight and their reasons for being overweight cannot be overcome by going to the gym and such, they are of course going to get upset with the stereotype of "take the fork out of your mouth, dear." They're tired of being nagged about their weight by family and others, and everybody on the planet knows that nagging a fat person only makes the fat person want to eat MORE. Especially those who eat because they are depressed. I have an overweight friend who will cry-and-eat if anyone criticizes her weight or even makes the slightest remark in that regard. Telling her ANYTHING about weight or weight loss is entirely counterproductive. Oh and they think that because you think being overweight is 'unnecessary' that you're sexist (misogynist) because you do not 'accept' all body types. Seriously, the idea that the Dove models are unhealthily fat? That's...a huge stretch. No wonder they ridiculed you for that.
They think Amy is racist because of what she said about single parenthood. Now you're probably asking, 'wait, what?'. Um yeah. It's racist to talk about single parenthood...when minorities are concerned. And all the resulting issues. Also the vast majority of them, who may in fact be raised by single mothers, are women and don't quite grasp that sometimes, BOYS raised by single mothers figure out they don't have to listen to their mother because of their physical advantage. They think that just because THEY were raised by Single Mothers, and they turned out 'fine', that OMG SINGLE MOTHERS SHOULD NEVER BE CRITICIZED. EVER.
I have absolutely no idea what to make of this, other than it's probably where part of the 'racist' accusation came from: Life Lessons I Have Learned From Amy Alkon
2. Black people have no right to be single mothers and should stop throwing their vaginas around like whores.
...I'm positive there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere...
Also Amy is apparently racist...because she doesn't like listening to people speaking spanish in America. Or with spanish accents. *shrugs* I don't think that's racist, that's something else. Kinda insensitive IMO tho.
Also, to top it all off, the place they come from, they are doing what is called 'snarking'. Which is what they think Amy does in all her columns. And they're doing the same thing here. They think Amy is acting like a 'butthurt fanbrat' like some 14 year old on Fanfiction.net whose OMG EDWARD AND MY MARY SUE, OTP, DIE BELLA DIE fanfic just got ripped to shreds for having bad grammar, bad spelling, horrid punctuation, no plot, and to which the fanbrat would respond "OMG YOUR JUST JELOUS CUZ I WRIT THIS FANFIC AND PEOPLE WUB IT."
I kinda don't blame them for getting enraged about the fatness thing, or the over-generalizing. That kinda sorta went both ways. Amy overgeneralized, and they did the same.
Mary Sue at December 8, 2009 5:13 PM
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