Stare Way To Heaven
I read your column, so I get that men are visual creatures. But, I'm wondering, when is it okay for a woman to be jealous over her boyfriend looking at other women?
--Piqued
There are men who make you feel like the only woman in the world and men who make you feel like the only thing standing between them and a clear view of some other woman's jigglies. Lynne Truss, in her book on manners, Talk to the Hand, writes that "manners are based on an ideal of empathy, of imagining the impact of one's own actions on others." In other words, while all men look, rude men let themselves get caught. So, the question really isn't when to be jealous, but when to be on your way. The responsibility here is yours: to choose the guy who'll take the occasional visual freebie that crosses his path, but lose the guy whose body language says he'd trade you to passing Bedouins for five minutes with her...and he'll just duck out to the parking lot to see if there are any men looking for parking spaces for their camels.
Women know men are visual creatures and many times dress accordingly. Spaghetti top shirts, short shorts or short skirts, thong bikini bottoms etc....
1. There is a difference between looking at a woman who crosses a mans field of vision and
2.him looking over and/or around you too look at someone else.
The first is completely understandable and no woman should be so insecure and jealous that she throws a big tantrum about it. In the second situation the guy doesn't value you and you should get rid of him like yesterday's newspaper.
David M. at August 19, 2009 6:28 AM
I made a comment elsewhere once about how to handle it when you see an attractive lady lose her top at the beach. You glance for just a moment. Then you pointedly look the other way. And if she comes over and asks "You didn't see that, did you?", you answer, "See what?"
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 7:51 AM
Amen, DavidM. Also, the LW needs to remember that jealousy is a manifestation of your own insecurities. But any man who plays on that deliberately needs to get kicked to the curb. Or you could just show him the door, if you want to be nice about it. Not that he would deserve it, mind you.
Flynne at August 19, 2009 7:52 AM
Flynne is right. Jealousy is a manifestation of your own insecurities. I've also always felt it was a waste of time and emotion. Its about respect. There will always be a beautiful woman out there and in most cases, many beautiful women. There is a difference between discreetly checking one out and leering. Although I have to admit, I've been guilty of elbowing my ex a few times and saying, "holy shit, get a load of her!"
Kristen at August 19, 2009 8:25 AM
Kristen, I got a good laugh out of that, because my DW and I do the same thing. The other night we were watching TV together; I don't recall what show it was, but there was a shirtless guy who was pretty cut, and I pointed it out to her and said, "Check him out, he's really toned!" Then a few minutes later, she points out to me a woman in a bathing suit: "Wow, what a rack!"
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 11:21 AM
All the ladies in my LTR's knew/know what will attract my attention, and some times hold it.
They also know while I may look at the menu, I only will eat at home. I make sure that I pay attention to them, and that looking does not equate to touching, or even attempting to touch.
I also try not to be obvious, and usually when I get caught they will have to agree (or at least understand) that whatever caught my attention was worth taking a look at.
Jim P. at August 19, 2009 11:23 AM
Hell, I point out the hot chicks to any woman I'm with so they can join me in the great sport of watching other people's (men and women) reactions to a hot chick. I then pick the supposedly hot chick apart as generally the hot-at-first-glance chick is still a sillyconed tublet in disguise. I always say that if the chick can't fit into my 28" waist jeans, she's a tubb.
Jay J. Hector at August 19, 2009 2:00 PM
As noted, it helps if you have the right partner.
"As a matter of fact, my wife not only doesn't mind my
looking at beautiful women, she points them out to me.
'Don't look now,' she tells me in a restaurant, causing me
to turn around immediately, 'but there is a beautiful woman at
the table behind you. My, I wish I had a figure like that.'
After I have stared at this luscious creature about as long
as I dare without getting punched in the eye by her escort, my
wife finds me another one.
'Look over there, next to the man in the light suit. Isn't
she gorgeous?'
I look, and she is. My wife has impeccable taste in picking
out the beauties."
from "My Life with Women"
Richard Armor - 1968
Ron at August 19, 2009 4:22 PM
There is a big difference between noticing a great beauty, a moment of admiration for a living work of nature's art...and a low life leer that makes the other person feel like they might as well be yesterday's garbage.
A woman that is jealous of a mere passing glance is insecure, a woman who is jealous of a leer, needs to find a man worth being jealous over.
Robert at August 19, 2009 5:02 PM
Cousin Dave, that is pretty funny. It sounds how my ex and I were which was nice because we were secure in ourselves and with each other. I don't get the whole jealousy thing. Does anyone really want a partner that the rest of the world is repulsed by? There's nothing wrong with a little healthy appreciation. Too bad about my ex.
Kristen at August 19, 2009 6:00 PM
Hahaha reminds me of a moment with an ex-boyfriend. Getting coffee at a convenience store/gas station and we both look up and out the window at the same time to see this hot chick in office clothes walking out to her car at the gas pumps. Neither one of us said a word until she was pulling out of the lot and I turned to him and before he could say anything I blurted out "OMG did you SEE that? I had no idea an ass could look that good, or move in such a way speech stops"
His eybrows hit the top of his head and he blinked a few times and then grinned and sipped his coffee. Then said yup, saw it.
rsj at August 19, 2009 8:04 PM
I think this is one of the most intelligent questions ever asked of Amy.
I have another. I acknowledge that men are visual creatures and their short glances are a reflex. What I don't understand is if such glances are innocent, then why do so many men freak out if someone casts an "innocent" glance on their girlfriends/wives?
Rozita at August 19, 2009 11:21 PM
I think this is one of the most intelligent questions ever asked of Amy.
Which is? Seems rhetorical if it's Kristin's -- or yours.
Amy Alkon at August 19, 2009 11:48 PM
Come on have you not heard of the FIVE second rule! Any more then that is just rude!
John Paulson at August 20, 2009 12:43 AM
"then why do so many men freak out if someone casts an "innocent" glance on their girlfriends/wives?"
It's a good question, but the answer is the same: insecurity and jealousy.
Cousin Dave at August 20, 2009 6:56 AM
My fiance looks at women. I know this because he admits it, but I've never caught him doing it. He's a hot-chick ninja.
MonicaP at August 20, 2009 6:59 AM
"then why do so many men freak out if someone casts an "innocent" glance on their girlfriends/wives?"
He's protecting his turf. It's the testosterone. It's the same reason why men usually can't forgive their wife/gf for cheating, whereas women sometimes can.
Chrissy at August 20, 2009 9:31 AM
"He's a hot-chick ninja." LOL... that's what I want to be when I grow up!
Cousin Dave at August 20, 2009 11:35 AM
The whole "pretend you don't see anything" is the wuss thing for men to do, don't do it. Look and enjoy.
For women: stop being so damn jealous. If the guy is looking or behaving in a way meant to calculate jealousy, then he's a douche and you should move on. However, if he's looking because its nice to look at, and you get jealous, what you're really saying to him is 'that chick is good enough that you'd ditch me for her, and I need to defend my turf'. Have the stones to know that your man is with you for a reason.
Michael wears a hat at August 21, 2009 10:46 AM
The whole "pretend you don't see anything" is the wuss thing for men to do, don't do it. Look and enjoy.
This is fair up to a point. No rational person begrudges a man a glance at an attractive woman. Hell, I look at attractive women, and I'm heterosexual. But there's glancing, and then there's ogling, and ogling is rude. If a guy is staring, then my reaction is likely to be, "Clearly, you'd like some time alone to check her out. I'll be over at the bar with the guy checking me out!"
MonicaP at August 21, 2009 11:56 AM
"Clearly, you'd like some time alone to check her out. I'll be over at the bar with the guy checking me out!"
Jealousy.
It certainly is 'rude', and the whole reason it is socially considered rude is because it foments jealousy. Again, if he's doing it in such a way that its a clear attempt to create jealousy, then yeah, ditch him. But if he isn't obviously doing it to create jealousy, and you say something like that, then you're displaying your own lack of self-confidence.
Michael wears a hat at August 21, 2009 3:57 PM
MonicaP--I agree with you
Michael wears a hat (nice moniker, by the way)--The reason men should be discreet with looking (notice there's no insistence on NOT looking) is that it is considerate of your partner. In just the same way--it feels more natural and comfortable to let out a long burp, but I suppress it and let it pass quietly (I burp, I just do it discreetly) out of consideration for my partner. Just because something comes naturally doesn't mean that a person has to let it all hang out, rather than restraining themselves for the other person's comfort.
a reader at August 21, 2009 4:49 PM
Just because something comes naturally doesn't mean that a person has to let it all hang out, rather than restraining themselves for the other person's comfort.
Exactly. The inability to be discreet is, essentially, a man saying, "I don't care if this makes you uncomfortable. Me like pretty boobies!"
The other implication is that you're the kind of guy who doesn't see breasts very much and needs to soak it all in while you can.
The ability to look discreetly is what separates men from frat boys.
MonicaP at August 21, 2009 5:26 PM
Amy, what I meant was that it wasn't like one of the many letters that you receive, i.e. "My boyfriend and I have a great relationship, get along well and are very much in love. It's just that he's a serial killer and he's unfaithful to me. What should I do?"
It was a good question and I loved your answer.
Rozita at August 21, 2009 10:51 PM
I am a hot-guy ninja myself. I had an old bf who said he hated how good I was at checking out guys without him noticing because he was very bad at checking out hot girls without being stupidly obvious.
Nowadays(in our 40s) with my fiance we are pretty honest and will say we think someone is attractive, either male or female.
I will admit his taste makes me want to lose 30 pounds! He's athletic, I am voluptuous bordering on overweight(who am I kidding-I AM overweight!)and he always dated thin sporty girls prior to me. Although he's marrying me and not one of those thin sporty girls!
linny at August 23, 2009 6:50 AM
Hey - just discovered Amy here and have been catching up on some of the Archives. Although I suspect we have a few philosophical and political differences, I like your advice very much and love your cracking sense of humour darling.
So to get to this question and why I'm posting. Amy suggested reading The Monogamy Myth and I think this question goes to the heart of some the issues raised in this excellent book. I will say that I think these difficultoes are changing.
*We somehow get it into our heads that when you're in a fulfilling committed relationship monogamy comes naturally and *we naturally don't lust after anyone else* - all that fairytale stuff and the fact that people don't talk about struggling with monogamy. So if you lasciviously look at someone else it feels like a betrayal ... and can be seen as a betrayal. This is of course ridiculous - and we're breaking out of this silliness.
*We don't talk about our sexual feelings honestly and are not given the vocabulary - emotionally and literally with words - to talk constructively to our partner about our sexual feelings and what they mean. I think this question points to our problem with this, albeit in a small way. Being able to glancing at and commenting on a good looking person with your partner is a small way to build this honesty. It could be the start of a route that gives a relationship confidence and honesty in matters sexual.
I've used The Monogamy Myth as a jumping off point in an ongoing discussion with my boyfriend. It's opened up a very helpful and interesting to exploration of this topic and I've no doubt will help us to develop and healthy realtionship. Thanks Amy for suggesting the book!
AntoniaB at August 23, 2009 10:08 AM
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