Wimp My Ride
I've often had a woman sit across from me on some form of a date and tell me she just broke up with her boyfriend and isn't interested in getting involved. That's usually followed by how she's too busy with work, lacks the emotional energy for a relationship, etc. This time, the woman was on our charity bike ride planning committee. I was testing the course, and she asked to ride with me. During our ride, she asked for biking tips. I gave her suggestions and said I'd e-mail her specifics (which I did). She thanked me and asked to do another ride with me. After that ride, she told me she'd just broken up and all the rest about how unready she was to get involved. So, why be out with me? Her response: Women can have male friends, and I'm a "safe" person to be with.
--Joe Spokes
When a woman you aren't in a relationship with says you make her feel "safe," think back a few minutes. Unless you just fended off a mountain lion or helped her escape from a terrorist compound, she's probably thanking you for helping her escape any chance of ever having to have sex with you.
You didn't ask this woman on a date; you found yourself on "some form of a date," which sounds like some form of a pattern for you. If it is, it's probably because you're too wimpy to ask a woman out, at least on what would sound to her like an actual boy-likes-girl evening. Maybe you hope if you just hang around her life long enough, you'll graduate from loiterer to boyfriend. Instead of dates, you have schemes to keep her on the hook: acting as her tour guide, e-mailing her a book report on how to be a better biker, and...what's that? She's not ready for a relationship...but would you mind emptying the litter box and reshingling the garage on your way out?
Of course, you and ten thousand other wimpy guys are now screaming, "What could possibly be wrong with going on a bike ride with a woman?" And yeah, she asked. And wasn't it sweet of you to type up all those bike tips? No, it was not. Sweet is bringing the little old widow next door a bowl of soup. If I'm right about you, you put out for women you barely know (in goods and services, anyway), not because you're a wonderful person, but because you want something in return -- girlfriendly attention. In other words, you're a male prostitute -- just without the sex.
A guy generally does this because he feels like too big a loser to be enough of a draw on his own, just over drinks. Women sense this, and drop-kick him into the friend (or friendly eunuch with bike tools) zone fast, when he otherwise might've had a chance. In this case, for example, things might've turned out differently if you'd invited the woman for a post-ride drink. In the future, if you're at all interested in a woman, ask her out; don't ask how you can help her out. Instead of giving in to your fear of rejection, seek rejection -- the sooner the better. Not only will this keep you from wasting your time, the longer you wait to ask a woman on a date, the less likely she is to go out with you -- which doesn't necessarily mean she'll stop seeing you. (Little Bo Peep has lost all her..."emotional energy for a relationship," and she'd really appreciate it if you'd round up her sheep so she can save her physical energy for the guy she does have a date with.)
Nail on the head, nail on the head!
Robert at August 19, 2009 4:35 AM
Sucks being treated like a girlfriend when you want to be a boyfriend. Sucks worse if you're acting like a girlfriend when you should have acted like a boyfriend, or at least a potential boyfriend.
old rpm daddy at August 19, 2009 5:15 AM
Well worded as ususal Amy. Ah, gotta love how women can smell desperation from so far away.
Amax at August 19, 2009 5:35 AM
VERY good advice. I can't really think of anything to add - you hit the nail on the head.
Anne at August 19, 2009 6:42 AM
"A guy generally does this because he feels like too big a loser to be enough of a draw on his own."
Word. I've been that guy. We spend a lot of time here making fun of the self-esteen movement, but this is one place where it really applies, or should. The first thing the LW needs to do is stop being so darn available, especially for females who ask for favors that they have no intention of reciprocating. Just say no, gosh darn it, I'd love to but I've got to go see my grandmom in the nursing home that evening.
The second thing is to not shotgun your approach. This was a lesson that was hard for me to learn, because I'm so poor at reading people. But eventually I learned that I'd have a lot better success at dating if I paid attention to who seemed interested in me and who didn't. The converse is also true; don't ask out a woman that you aren't interested in, just because she's available.
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 7:45 AM
Yeah, the LW wants to be a Nice Guy (TM), but Nice Guys (TM) don't get dates unless they ASK for them. Another case of someone needing to replace their wishbone with a backbone. o.O
Flynne at August 19, 2009 7:58 AM
Another case of someone needing to replace their wishbone with a backbone. o.O
Or someother kinda bone
lujlp at August 19, 2009 8:17 AM
I could see where the LW is trying to meet women through shared interests and hopes that it could turn into more. He just doesn't seem to know when exactly to make the move. He waits and waits and by then the woman sees him as friend, not potential hot boyfriend material. It can't be easy to make that leap. He probably fears rejection and also the fact that now he has to work on some project with this woman. He should have a little more faith in what he has to offer(himself) and make the leap.
Kristen at August 19, 2009 8:21 AM
Next time turn to the woman when she finishes the "I'm-not-ready" speech and politely (but without a smile) ask, "Why are you telling me this?" Then say nothing more while you look at her right in the eye.
She will be tempted to say anything except the truth, "I thought you were interested in that, so I wanted to let you down easy." She did think that, but she will likely not tell you that.
Then, whatever her answer, drop the topic without further comment, even if she asks you a question. You are not obligated to make the situation comfortable after her faux pas. (Yes, it is a faux pas, what she is doing.)
Change topic to something else nice and light and then enjoy the last 20-30 minutes of the non-date "social interaction" before (politely) suggesting calling her a cab to take her home or otherwise taking your leave if you drove your own car.
People will say "how can you do that?! It is rude! Nope, it isn't.
Her indirect bullshit about how she is not ready, blah, blah, blah is patronizing, and therefore rude. She is doing it to spare herself the uncomfortable situation of turning you down for any future dates. You have no obligation to hang around at this point. Just be nice, and then get away. She ruined the interaction with her faux pas, so you can take your leave as you will.
If she decided she does not want to "date" you, fine should thereafter not ask you out. And if you ask her out after she made up her mind, she should say, "Thanks, but no." She need not explain herself, and probably shouldn't, since the truth hurts and the lie is patronizing.
Truth is, she probably is ready for a relationship, just not with you. If Stud McRockbody III, wealthy oil baron and underwear model, asked her out, yeah she would be ready for a relationship--and marriage and kids. You? Nope.
That's all good. People can choose whomever they want (and can get). Being picky is not being a bad person. But this indirect way of shucking the rejects is bad form. Don't try and correct people, but don't spend any time with them after getting treated like a schmuck either. Just get away from them.
One thought I had: it may be these gals are trying to find that "Dick in a Box" guy Chris Rock had that hilarious bit about a few years ago. You know the one, the guy a gal could sleep with, if dating options narrow or she is in crisis. But right now she still wants to shop a bit more, without losing you as a potential fallback option. So you are put in the box, behind glass so to speak, to break in case of emergency. "I'm not ready" may mean, "let me see what my marketability is, and I will get back to you if need be."
If you are a woman's "dick in a box", quit calling her. When she calls you, be polite but get off the phone. And don't label her a "friend". She isn't a friend.
Keep looking for romance elsewhere and leave failed experiments behind . Think of it like a job interview that did not result in an offer. Would you take the occasional phone call from them, while they discuss with you whether guys who got the job are perfect fits for the position? (heh) Hell no, you wouldn't. Why do that in your love life?
Spartee at August 19, 2009 8:23 AM
Spartee--That Chris Rock bit... It occurs to me when I read about these situations. However, I don't think that "faux pas" is the right term for the women's response. Nor are the responses, in themselves, rude. It's only bad form if she has been leading the guy on--after one date or interaction, it's fair enough. The problem is not that the letter writer heard the line once (everyone gets rejected), the problem is that he's hearing it again and again.
Amy--rock on. I wouldn't change a word of your advice. Such spot-on, no-sugar-coating takes on situations are what keep me coming back to you site. Preach, sister!
Question for the guys--would you rather the woman directly say "I'm not interested in you" or indirectly "I have too much work"? I would think the latter is a line that helps both parties to save face, while making the meaning clear.
a reader at August 19, 2009 8:49 AM
Response to 'a reader' - not that I get such candor very often, but the uncoated, yet polite truth beats a 'face saving' white lie every time - if only because with the really hot ones, I am probably only half listening anyway, and would misread the indirect method.
Just say it straight:
"You're great, but I'm not interested in you romantically." Simple. Honest. Polite. Clean cuts heal the quickest.
But that's really tough to do, I know. Think of it this way when you are trying to decide between direct and indirect. By being direct, you are helping to toughen up the guy's ego for the next woman who comes along. Think of it as doing him a favor.
. . . and also providing a service for that 'next woman' as well . . .
railmeat at August 19, 2009 9:04 AM
I don't speak hint. In fact, I can only take a hint when it is applied with a sledgehammer.
Be direct. This way if I persist, you can just say "look, are you stupid? I already told you I'm not interested."
I'll take the boot to the head versus a thousand paper cuts.
brian at August 19, 2009 9:15 AM
"However, I don't think that "faux pas" is the right term for the women's [action]."
Faux pas: a socially awkward or tactless act.
Sounds like thise guy is experiencing are awkward, tactless moments to me, and the woman initiates them. Now, maybe he is cluelessly trying to mack on them after they are giving him cues to stay away, but based on the letter, it sounds like these gals give him the canned speech out of nowhere.
"Question for the guys--would you rather the woman directly say "I'm not interested in you" or indirectly "I have too much work"?
That second one is not indirect, that is a falsehood. She need not say either of those things. She can just "no thanks."
If the guy presses--and he should not--she doesn't have to give reasons, and really should not. She does not have to explain herself to him. (Heck, I would tell her to say "I don't have to explain myself to you" if he pushes.) But she should not fib, however, and make up fake reasons.
Fibbing could lead to the guy not getting the real message, which is "no". "Too much work?," he thinks. "Okay, I will call back in a week or two..." Cue second round of rejection!
"No, I'd rather not" is her answer. Say it, then say no more. Spare people's feelings by simply not explaining yourself.
Spartee at August 19, 2009 9:19 AM
I think most guys (well, maybe not Brad Pitt) have had the oops we're just buddies experience. You have to respond appropriately to the situation, e.g., she says "we're just pals", the response is "ok", and then you go find someone else to date, and immediately stop wasting your dating time on her or anyone else who displays similar behaviors. The last thing you want is a rep for being a "friend".
My story of what I believe to be an appropriate response in a slightly escalated situation from the LW's (some of you may find this tedious axe-grinding, ignore if you prefer):
So I met this cute girl. We met several times. We talked. She did the hair toss, touched my shoulder, leaned in to speak with me, and giggled at my jokes. I asked her for a date.
I picked her up in a cab and took her to a restaurant. Halfway through the meal she looked me in the eye and said "This isn't a date."
I had asked for a date a week in advance, we were both dressed well and at dinner, it was a Saturday night, we were headed out on the town after - how was this not a date?
I finished eating, dropped cash for my half of the meal, said good-bye, and left her there to find her own cab home. I did not call her again.
You want to be my "friend", that's fine. But my friends don't set me up and then drop the hammer on my ass in public.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 19, 2009 9:50 AM
Thank you, Amy, thank you!!! You've just identified a problem I've had all of my life!
I will forever now remember this catchy line:
"Ask her out, don't ask how you can help her out."
That says it all!
Robert W. (Vancouver) at August 19, 2009 10:26 AM
It's really difficult to backtrack from "we're just friends" moments.
Not quite the same thing, but I invited a friend of mine to my wedding 10 years ago, and he accepted at first. Then he backed out, saying he loved me. Not sure what he expected, since I was getting married, but the best way for both of us to move on after that was to pretend he never said it. After my divorce, I kept a healthy distance for awhile when it seemed like he was eager to be the rebound guy. Now we're casual friends.
MonicaP at August 19, 2009 10:40 AM
In my limited experience, a woman who says "I just got out of a relationship and am not looking" is eager to be flattered for her self-reliance. In truth, she has zero interest in testing this independence.
Now, we often hear this little nugget early in the dinner date, usually during salad, which is a one-handed dish: The right hand has your fork. Your left, theretofore resting gently on your crossed knee under the table, is free to quietly probe your pants pocket and confirm that you brought a condom, because it's going to be a good evening.
Women spend so much of their lives flirting with other guys when they're quite contentedly dating someone or even happily married. This social zone is called "bullpen". The last thing they want is to be proudly unloved.
Batter up!
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at August 19, 2009 10:47 AM
It's amazing what a little self-confidence will do. Through most of college, I didn't have much luck with women. Some of it was them, but most of it was me: I was working my way through school; I didn't have any money and not much time. There were lingering upbringing issues too. So I tended to consider myself unworthy, and I see now that this had to come through to a lot of the women I asked out.
About five months before graduation, I accepted an out-of-town job offer, to begin after graduation. At the time, it sounded like a dream job: live in South Florida near the beach, good money, and cutting-edge work with a small research company. (Not so much, as it turned out, but that's not relevant to this story.) Plus the opportunity to get away from lingering family stuff. Well, something funny happened after that. All of a sudden, women seemed to be attracted to me. I was actually getting dates and having a good time with my dates. And despite my resolve not to get into a relationship due to my impending move, I kind of fell into one anyway, and it was one of the best times I'd had with a woman up to that point. (It was painful for me to break up with her, and I still feel kind of guilty about leading her on.)
So obviously the difference was that I had confidence. I felt a lot better about myself, and evidently the women around me sensed that.
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 11:13 AM
So obviously the difference was that I had confidence. I felt a lot better about myself, and evidently the women around me sensed that.
Exactly, Cousin Dave. And the reverse it true too: when women sense that they you're willing to be their handyman, bike buddy, or whatever, and that you won't ask for more, they'll let you be just that.
Flynne at August 19, 2009 11:30 AM
Okay not "that they" just "that". (Ack. Doing homework and my fingers are flying faster than my brain is thinking.)
Flynne at August 19, 2009 11:32 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/08/wimp-my-ride.html#comment-1663794">comment from Robert W. (Vancouver)Thank you, Amy, thank you!!! You've just identified a problem I've had all of my life! I will forever now remember this catchy line: "Ask her out, don't ask how you can help her out." That says it all!
Aw, thanks - that means a lot!
Amy Alkon at August 19, 2009 11:58 AM
I'm gonna agree with Spartee's post though Amy's right about the guy needing to stop "giving it away". The male prostitute line was a bit harsh considering what society tells men on how to act but not wrong. I've fallen into that trap before, even with non dating issues.*
"Question for the guys--would you rather the woman directly say "I'm not interested in you" or indirectly "I have too much work"? I would think the latter is a line that helps both parties to save face, while making the meaning clear."
Hit me with the sledgehammer. I may (may) hate you in the short term but in the long term you're doing me and yourself a favor. I'm not exactly mr. expert in reading between the lines when it comes to women so I appreciate the direct honest approach. Odds are I'll respect you more for it and maybe we'd even end up as "friends" or amicable acquaintences.
I'm also rather tired of women expecting me to do all the heavy lifting in the relationship (introductory phase or beyond) because they're afraid of rejection or wasting resources. Equality baby! You wanted it, you got it. AM/PM 24/7.
*Apparently one is a "bit of a jerk" for not driving an hour out of my way to return a vacuum two people had assumed was a gift not borrowed especially when I knew they drove right through my town regularly. I never heard from them after multiple attempts to contact them. After it was brought up at our joint friend's (who had given me the vacuum) wedding "if I still had it" a few years later I almost boxed the thing up and sent it to them back east.
Sio at August 19, 2009 12:11 PM
Flynne: "Exactly, Cousin Dave. And the reverse it true too: when women sense that they you're willing to be their handyman, bike buddy, or whatever, and that you won't ask for more, they'll let you be just that. "
Right you are. I guess it's a characteristic of human nature that if someone volunteers to be our foot servant, most of us will accept, even when we shouldn't. It seems to be less common for women to do that, at least with men they've just met. Although there are women who do. They're the ones that the guys use for booty calls.
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 1:01 PM
Generally love Amy's advice and agree with this round. I want a date with a woman, it is my responsibility to make it happen. Recent gender role confusion to the contrary, some things haven't changed.
Now ladies - you want me to make my intentions clear? I can live with that. Do me the courtesy of returning the favor. That's where your backbone comes into play. You interested in me? Put out the buying signals. Not interested? Don't act like you are and fain surprise or outrage if I act on your signals. If I ask you out and you don't want to go, then you aren't busy or washing your hair or anything else. Your not interested. Say so politely and I will move on, probably tougher and better prepared for this mating/dating dance routine. Sounds fair.
Wish both sides would play it that way but obtuse men and attention-seeking women will always be out there.
ortho at August 19, 2009 1:07 PM
Yeah, man, this reminds of the time I took this girl out, ate her until she had an orgasm. When I asked for the return favor, she said no. I guess it wasn't a date. I am sort of big, though. I hadn't thought of that before. Maybe that was it.
i-holier-than-thou at August 19, 2009 2:37 PM
And another time, I agreed to be handcuffed, and then my non-date w/o permission stuck a dildo in my rear, with some sort of tail on it. She used a vibrator on herself. She orgasmed, rather well I would say.
She then threw my clothes out the window to the ground floor (we were on the third floor), and threatened to call the cops and allege rape-attempt unless I left immediately. It was so humiliating to walk through the parking lot to retrieve my clothes with that dildo-tail hanging out of my rear end. She did leave the handcuff key in the pants pocket, as promised. I guess that wasn't a date either. Was I wrong to me miffed at this, Amy?
i-holier-than-thou at August 19, 2009 3:23 PM
I want you to have to file a restraining order against me. Anything else is simply sending a mixed message (including shooting in a non-fatal location, like the leg or arm.)
kevin_m at August 19, 2009 3:29 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/08/wimp-my-ride.html#comment-1663816">comment from i-holier-than-thouClearly, i-hole doesn't get a lot of attention at home.
Amy Alkon at August 19, 2009 3:55 PM
Amy I know you only ban spammers but if you were to have a majority vote of the posters would you ban one particular i-asshole-??
lujlp at August 19, 2009 3:59 PM
Yo! I second lujlp's suggestion. All in favor?
railmeat at August 19, 2009 4:21 PM
Unpopular position here, but: I don't think "I'm not ready for a relationship" is too subtle of a message. She isn't interested. She just said so. If she's too busy to go out with you or she's washing her hair, then she isn't interested.
We play these kinds of social games all the time, not just in dating. If I don't like the dinner my host prepared, I pretend to be full, I don't tell her I don't like what she made. We don't know for sure how people are going to handle rejection: Some of you would rather the honest approach; some people get all butthurt and make it their mission to tell everyone you're a lesbian bitch.
Amy's advice to the LW was dead on: Stop being an awesome big brother and start being a dude she wants to shag.
MonicaP at August 19, 2009 4:46 PM
Question for the guys--would you rather the woman directly say "I'm not interested in you" or indirectly "I have too much work"? I would think the latter is a line that helps both parties to save face, while making the meaning clear. -- a reader
Definately the direct. I have had enough -- not a lot but enough -- where they say something like the "I have too much work" then be interested awhile later that I consider it to be a useless statement. Most those came when I was younger and didn't realize that is was often times a signal.
In fact one of my better relationships was like that. We went on a couple of dates - she said she was too busy -- ran into her a few months later and asked her out again and she said yes. I later found out that another guy she was seeing had asked her to be exculsive so she dropped me and when I ran into her again it was the day after they had broken up -- she took it as a sign.
The Former Banker at August 19, 2009 4:54 PM
Gentlemen, if you believe there is a chance that you will have the mindset or will be in the position of the LW, I recommend the following series by someone with the pseudonym "Joe Blow".
What Women Want, Who Cares? Parts 1 - 5
Possible links:
http://www.divorcesource.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=364062&Main=364035
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blow/02/blow100702.htm
You can also Google it.
SM777 at August 19, 2009 5:56 PM
"Clearly, i-hole doesn't get a lot of attention at home. "
Maybe this couch would keep him busy:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/540076210.html
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at August 19, 2009 7:27 PM
MonicaP:
How? This gray lump of dendrites in my skull didn't come with an instruction manual, and I haven't figured out how to work the fucking thing in the last 40 years.
brian at August 19, 2009 7:29 PM
"Unpopular position here, but: I don't think "I'm not ready for a relationship" is too subtle of a message. She isn't interested. She just said so. If she's too busy to go out with you or she's washing her hair, then she isn't interested"
I get your point, Flynne. Here's how it comes across sometimes, though: Guy asks girl out. In the middle of the date, girl says she isn't ready for a relationship. (Why did she wait until in the middle of the date? Anyway...) So guy takes the hint; she doesn't want to date. OK. Next week, he sees her out with someone else. Message that comes across: He didn't rate.
Actually, "I'm not ready for a relationship" is not really the problem. The problem is, "I'm busy that night... ask me next week." Then next week, it's something else, but please do ask again. And so on.
Cousin Dave at August 19, 2009 7:40 PM
That was me, Cousin Dave, but I think I can help you: She gets one chance to reschedule. If she can't make it the second time, then move on. Even if she does like you, she's just too damn busy. There are lots of women out there, so save your time for the ones who have time for you.
If she says she's not ready for a relationship during the middle of the date, she is lame, but you can cross her off your list of possibilities. It sucks, but it ends the same way as if she'd said, "I thought I liked you, but now that I got to know you, not so much."
Brian: Try hitting "reset." Works for me.
MonicaP at August 19, 2009 9:12 PM
Why do people always have to be polite. I mean GOD I bet some people would just love bluntness (not overtly rude) - "Sorry I do not want to date you!" is that too hard or even "I do not find you attractive". Come one people why beat around the bush with "Sorry, I am not looking for a relationship" or "I am at a strange time in my life and..." OR "I have a this off and on again relationship with my ex-boyfriend" and so frigging on.....
Going to get my self in trouble here... but women can not understand it and many men try to do it "Men and Women generally (generally I said) can not be friends. Even more so with single women. I find it can be done with women that are hooked up. But overall I mean men/women can be friendly or a good coworker or professionals or hang out buddies. But every time I have seen male/female friends their is either some sort of sexual tension or desire to move the friend to boy/girl friend.
Honestly would women really want to be a man's friend. The next woman that wants to be-friend you guys ask her to help you move a couch or recommend you someone to date.
Actually I would have done that to the above woman. As soon she said he was safe. he should have brought up the topic of is her sister available or does she have any (good looking) friends looking for a date.
John Paulson at August 20, 2009 12:40 AM
John, I have a lot of guy friends. Maybe because I only have brothers, I dunno. But seriously, all the guys I'm friends with, I know either from my brothers or bands I've been in, and we've all of us at one point or another got to the "so, you wanna go out?" part, and, because I am who I am, I had to say either "yeah, baby!" or "no, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in you that way." Some guys took it well, some most definitely did not, but, after time, I managed to maintain friendships with them. One of the guys who did not respond well to my "sorry, no" left a note in my shoe one night that said "why is it or what is it that makes me so damn different?" and honestly, I couldn't tell him, because I didn't know, except to say that even though I myself wasn't attracted that way to him, he was sure to find someone who would be. Last I heard, he was married with children, so I guess I was right.
Flynne at August 20, 2009 5:57 AM
MonicaP, my apologies for the misattribution. And it doesn't really matter to me now, since I'm happily married. I will admit that I faulted down to a "one chance" rule late in my dating career; this was after being stood up on first dates several times in a row. I figured that if she really was busy but was interested in me, she could make a counter-offer instead of just "call me next week". The second or third date with the lady who is now my DW went like this: I called her to ask her out Saturday. She said, "I'm sorry, I'm going to visit my mother this weekend. How about if you come over for dinner next Tuesday?" That was a good way to handle it. And yes, the dinner was very, very good, ahem.
I disagree that a man and a woman can never be friends. But sometimes it's true that a specific man can't be friends with a specific woman, because he's just attracted to her too much. I've had that happen; I think she was hurt that I broke off contact with her, but I couldn't be around her and not think of her as a potential mate.
Cousin Dave at August 20, 2009 6:53 AM
"all the guys I'm friends with, I know either from my brothers or bands I've been in, and we've all of us at one point or another got to the 'so, you wanna go out?' part, and, because I am who I am, I had to say either 'yeah, baby!' or 'no, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in you that way.'"
Flynne, there may be a gender misunderstanding of the term "friend" at work here. Those guys were not "friends" with you, they were friendly to you. They may be good guys and all, but you were not friend material to them, it sounds like.
Guys, you know what I am trying to say, don't you?
Spartee at August 20, 2009 7:00 AM
Dead on IMO, Spartee . . .
John P above gives us an excellent way of bringing that gender misunderstanding of friendship to a fine point. I ain't sayin it's not possible for a man and a woman to be friends - just unlikely, and rare. But the test of asking the young lady (the one who claims to want 'friendship' and not just friendly acquintance) if she knows any hot young thangs that might be interested, will certainly put that 'lets be friends' proposion to the test.
railmeat at August 20, 2009 8:39 AM
"Question for the guys--would you rather the woman directly say "I'm not interested in you" or indirectly "I have too much work"? I would think the latter is a line that helps both parties to save face, while making the meaning clear."
Definitely the direct approach. That way there is no BS, no "maybe she's playig hard to get", no guessing, and most of all no possibility of him misunderstanding. If she doesn't go the direct way there is room for him to misunderstand but if she flatly says, "I'm not interested" then he has no reason to continue pursuit.
I'll say that most of the time "safe = doormat, security blanket, "dick in a box", love struck slave, etc.... During college I was in this position with a few women (one started freshmen year and lasted for four years almost) in which they pretty much had me at their beck and call and they knew good and hell what they were doing. Just like a guy that keep a woman in his life around as a booty call, cook, maid, etc... and nothing else women are adept at keeping men around to move things, kill spiders, fix things, etc... They both use the same weapon, their targets romantic interest which they plan to never reciprocate.
I think the LW's problem (and the problem I had with woman I mentioned above) is that he spent too much time waiting to see if she is interested or if she will develop interest. By waiting too long you miss the chance to ask and by then you have been around her so long (and doing things for her) that she's concluded that "If he's not going to ask me out then at least I have him wrapped around my finger." Sad part is she may have passed the stages of "Dammit I wish he would ask me out!!!", "Well maybe he is just building up his nerve.", "Geez this guy is a wimp, but he does cook a mean omelette!"
Danny at August 20, 2009 9:57 AM
Isn't this like the beginning of "Hitch" or something?
"No woman wakes up saying "God, I hope I don't get swept off my feet today!" Now, she might say "This is a really bad time for me," or something like "I just need some space," or my personal favorite "I'm really into my career right now." You believe that? Neither does she. You know why? 'Cause she's lying to you, that's why. You understand me? Lying! It's not a bad time for her. She doesn't need any space. And she may be into her career, but what she's really saying is "Uh, get away from me now," or possibly "Try harder, stupid," but which one is it?"
Though I admit, the "I just got out of a relationship" speech usually means "thanks for your help sap, get away from me now". I don't get why some women do it though--it's bad form and all that. To say it upfront is one thing but to use somebody and then offer it, is just reprehensible.
Sarah at August 20, 2009 10:43 AM
I used to experience this when I was in grad school...an interesting woman would come along, I would try to be her friend hoping for more, and inevitably they keep you as friend status forever while your buddy is rolling in the hay with her. My solution, after you start getting into the friend stage---start ignoring her. Most women cannot stand to be ignored and will do whatever it takes to find out why you have lost interest in them. I can't tell you how many times this worked. I actually ended up marrying one of these...
mike at August 20, 2009 11:22 AM
Flynne, there may be a gender misunderstanding of the term "friend" at work here. Those guys were not "friends" with you, they were friendly to you.
Nah, I don't think so. I'm talkin' sharing rides to the gigs, helping load/unload equipment, sharing beers, loaning a couple bucks here and there, asking each other "hey - you know that guy/gal? think they might want to hook up?", crying on each others' shoulders about what coulda/shoulda/woulda been, standing up for each other at/attending each others' family weddings/family wakes/family parties, being supportive when things go wrong kinda friends, guys that I've been friends with for better than 25 years in some cases, and am still friends with. They know my BF, he knows them. They know my ex-husband, they know my kids. Of course, I'm also talkin' band wives and kids and regular friends' wives and kids included here. So, maybe where you're from, it might mean something different. Where I'm from, we take the word "Friend" pretty seriously.
Flynne at August 20, 2009 12:48 PM
Re: I actually ended up marrying one of these...
Didn't you marry each other?
Caroline at August 20, 2009 5:16 PM
I told you guy I would get in trouble. As I commented GENERALLY woman and men can not be friends. When I mean friends I mean TRUE GOOD friends, help you move a dead body, you need my kidney hold on let me get a knife, you killed a hundred people hmmmmmm.... okay Jake your still my buddy, and so on. Flynne maybe you are the exception but looking at some the interactions between you and your male friends I see some points coming out.
One - hangout buddies - your described a good portion of your male friends are hangout buddies. A whole bunch people together at the bar or down at the lake or even at church. But that is just more basic friendliness and tribe (more down below). You will share drinks, talk about some basic troubles in your life, share some stories heck even downright embarrassing and sad stories,too. But in the end a good portion will not be that true good friend.
Two - Off the Market friends. Once someone is hooked up and in a relationship they get labeled as off the market - many people do what nice people do, they do not make them "dead to them/ not in my tribe anymore" they just change the category they are under to "FRIEND Now, but maybe..." and proceed on with life. They proceed to treat them a little differently, they can be friendly and nice. They will help you change a tire and lend you twenty dollars if you are down on your luck. But even that catagory does not ensure that people can remain as friends. God how many times have I heard of stories of - "I found my sister in bed with my boyfriend" or "my friend fucked my girlfriend in my bedroom".
Still because I am off market that is why I can sort of be friends with women. Heck if I have a high sex drive I would still proceed to try and have sex with all women that where friendly with me. So if a guy or girl is hoked up they can try and be friends but still even then men annnnnddddd women also have to be chaperoned. That chaperoning goes with being in a group so you can keep an eye out on them or your partner goes with you like in doubledating, or time is the chaperone (how much trouble can he get when is only ten minutes with her). So in the end my being in a relationship has me saying sorry no go no sex to a woman I meet who is friendly. Lets just be friends.
Three - woman and men are different! Flynne you are a woman! You do things differently then I do. Women are more community mind and more social. Maybe you can proceed to say hello Mr X - we can be friends. But me if a single woman or hell a married one starts showing friendship, my very male part of my brain goes "she wants sexing" or "oohhhh she wants me". Of course many of us men learn to be civilized thus do not throw her on the ground and proceed to ravage her. We approach with caution find out what category she is in - food, friend, foe, mate,etc. Ask the question if you took away the veenner of civility from your male friends how many would want to have sex with you, damn the bridge card game tonight.
Four - Tribe - You described your friendship one thing that screamed out at me is TRIBE. Your community of friends sounds like a tribe of people. Your situation of people dating other people and so on as very much similar that happens big groups of people in High School or University. All the jocks hang out together mixing it up with the cheerleaders. Musicians hang out with like minded people. So thus girl will date one guy one month then another guy the next who is part of the same tribe. Thus sex amongst tribe or dating among tribe is allowed to a degree.It happens with tribes.
Still your are out with a large group and and man is talking to you you may say he is a friend but I would say that man is more my tribe-member. So I have different ways that I treat them. If they need help they get it since they are tribe. You described you friends as one large tribe or part of your tribe. Can you boyfriend go to another town and stay with a friend who is a without you. Also lets say you do not know this woman she is not part of your tribe. How do you feel. Jealous. What if he saying don't worry she is my best friend from high school. Does that still change the situation? What if the woman is a tribe-member.
Point Five - Individual characteristics - I can be friends with a ugly girl easier then I can a good looking one. Because her ugliness just does not want to make me screw her. True maybe if I got drunk enough I might if I stop letting her ugliness affect me. Other characteristics that can affect if someone can be friends or not are
age, beauty, wealth, religion, social status, celebrity, knowledge, etc. Some of these characteristics can change how I treat someone. If a man is wealthy a woman may treat him more as a potential mate, less wealthy he gets downgraded to more as friend. But it can be more then just wealth or beauty. If a woman knows something I do not like how to hem pants I will use friendship to get what I want.
Six - consequences - Every interaction has or will have consequences. People to avoid harmful or bad situations will learn how to interact with people. They learn to treat people friendly or even mean. Thus why I will not hit upon a 17 year girl if I do I risk jail but a part of my mind goes lets not burn bridges so I put her into a friend category and treat her as thus. So in the end how you treat a person is the consequences you will deal with in your interactions. But that does not always mean the person you are dealing with has the same consequences. If you sleep with a man while married you might get labeled cheater but a man who is single will not get labeled that. So you see a man as a potential friend he see can see you as a potential lay. So Flynne in the end men will be friends with you because they have thought out the consequences of actions and thus treat you differently. If the consequences change, behavior will change. Like about with the 17 year old girl above once she hits 18 the consequence of jail goes away so thus my friendship could very well change. Another example you break up with your boyfriend a male friend starts to sees things differently. He now sees you as potential lover he knows does not have to deal with your boyfriend killing him if he hits on you or you refusing his advances because your are attached.
I apologize for any bad grammar or spelling. I hope I mad myself a bit more clear.
John Paulson at August 20, 2009 7:09 PM
I would try to be her friend hoping for more
Then you weren't being her friend -- you were faking being her friend because you wanted to sleep with her. Not uncommon, and not horrendous, but also typically not successful, because women virtually always know when you're doing that. And it creeps them out. They know that you're offering to do things for them not to be kind, but because you're hoping for a quid pro quo involving sex or steps up to that. Mature women will refrain from imposing on you as much as possible, but it can take women a while to get to that stage. If you want to go out with a non-taken woman, ask her. If she turns you down and you still think she's cool enough to want to hang out with her even without the prospect of romance, ask if you can be her friend, and then be her *friend.* Live your life. It is not impossible that romance will happen with her down the road, but don't make your decisions based on that.
It's not that guys who do things for others on a regular basis will inevitably be unlucky in love, but guys who do things for other people *out of fear of not being loved* give off an odor of desperation. No More Mr. Nice Guy, which Amy has recommended before, is a *great* primer on this phenomenon. It's worth reading for, well, just about everyone. Just ask my former Nice Guy SO, who is one of the sweeter and kinder guys I have met in my life while still being able to stick up for himself (and me) when the situation calls for it.
marion at August 20, 2009 8:05 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/08/wimp-my-ride.html#comment-1664034">comment from marionThen you weren't being her friend -- you were faking being her friend because you wanted to sleep with her. Not uncommon, and not horrendous, but also typically not successful, because women virtually always know when you're doing that. And it creeps them out. They know that you're offering to do things for them not to be kind, but because you're hoping for a quid pro quo involving sex or steps up to that. Mature women will refrain from imposing on you as much as possible, but it can take women a while to get to that stage.
Exactly right. Guys like this are ashamed of being male, ashamed of wanting sex. Being covert about it is so pathetic, it just loses you everything.
Amy Alkon at August 20, 2009 11:23 PM
I missed my basic overall point. In any relationship between male and female, for the man sex with the woman will be of the utmost priority (maybe not the MOST but usually pretty damn high). Still that does not mean that all of humanity is a sex obsessed animals ready at a moments notice to hump a leg. Tet, sex is still and will always be there - It will hang around and CAN make things awkward or difficult. Even if you are a friend with a man or woman - sex still is that little creature that rears its ugly head time to time or makes a noise once in while that can make things interesting or down right ruin a relationship.
Things can prevent the man and the woman too from proceeding - Civility - we humans are know part of civilization and some of us part of modern western civilization so thus we have rules to treat and interacting with people ala social mores. So no more conking the woman on the head and dragging her back to the cave. We know have to woo her and ask her permission. (Actually that gets men on the thinking about Islam and how backwards it is at times).
Other relationships - is she married, seeing somebody, still part of a her father/mother family unit, or has children. other Relationship complicate the process. If I want to get into her pants - her father is in the way, maybe a boyfriend. That is why I can be good acquaintance with a girl that has a boyfriend (especially one that is bigger or stronger than me). Still once that relationship is over ours is still their with the possibiity to change.
Mating criteria - sometimes said person does not fulfill mating criteria, too old, too young, too different, so person is not worthy of finding a sexual relationship. Men tend to be a bit more single minded so thus once does not fulfill criteria out of mind. Thru some minds are a bit dynamic can file that person under friend, ally, maybe can help me find a mate, provides me with a service I need. But you have to be careful that woman who puts a man from mate to ally does not understand that the man may have not changed you from mate to ally but to mate - not yet.
----------------
So single young man and single young woman both looking for sex - friendship is too difficult.
Single male and married woman - can be friendly maybe even friends but that man (usually the man) if he wanted, will want sex. I bet a good portion of adultery is is usually with somebody a woman is friends with.
Married man and single woman. Can be friendly depending on the dynamic between the married man's wife and the single woman. He sure as hell could not be friends with a woman if she is A) not part of married womans tribe B) not a friend of married woman C) Woman is able fulfill mating criteria of the male - thus is a threat.
I hope I making my self understood.
John Paulson at August 21, 2009 1:01 AM
I understand your point, John. I just don't agree. It runs contrary to my own experience. Your theory leaves no room for any type of love that isn't erotic. Human relations are too complicated to be summed up by such neat generalities.
Cousin Dave at August 21, 2009 9:24 AM
Amy said: "Exactly right. Guys like this are ashamed of being male, ashamed of wanting sex. Being covert about it is so pathetic, it just loses you everything."
Ashamed of being male??? Are you kidding me? Everyone has their own tactics to get laid, be it male or female. If thats the case, then every woman who wears makeup, high heels, colors her hair, gets fake boobs and wears pushup bras is "ashamed to be a woman", since they have to be covert about it and cover up their perceived flaws to try to get sex.
mike at August 21, 2009 9:55 AM
You're assuming mike, that men & women approach it from the same direction, and that is just silly.
How many women have to "try" to get sex?
Robert at August 21, 2009 4:48 PM
"That's where your backbone comes into play. You interested in me? Put out the buying signals. Not interested? Don't act like you are and fain surprise or outrage if I act on your signals."
Women have egos too; most women do a certain amount of 'leading on' just to keep enough guys unreciprocally interested enough to keep their ego stroked. Being able to go on with their friends about some guy who 'got the wrong idea' or 'won't stop hanging around' makes them seem desirable and high-status. Unfortunately you just need to learn to tell the difference between genuine interest and feigned interest.
DavidJ at August 21, 2009 5:57 PM
"My solution, after you start getting into the friend stage---start ignoring her. Most women cannot stand to be ignored and will do whatever it takes to find out why you have lost interest in them. I can't tell you how many times this worked."
Sure, but how to maintain respect for someone who falls so easily to primitive animal manipulation? I'd prefer someone who is smart enough to be above those silly monkey games; someone who can rationally recognize their own animal behavior and at least attempt to rise above it.
LW: Bike girl perhaps doesn't sound that interesting anyway. I've noticed that when I find myself behaving like that, it's often a sign that I myself wasn't really that interested to begin with, and was more just looking for someone to pass the time with ... when I am *really* interested in a woman, I tend to 'decide I want her and go for it' ... maybe you should be thinking more carefully about what you really want.
DavidJ at August 21, 2009 6:08 PM
At first when I read this, I was thinking that I would have done all of the things he did if I had no interest in the woman (I'm attached so I would be a lot more careful if I was attracted to her). I would have been thinking WTF when she spouted that crap. But after re-reading, realized that he was interested and was being a wimp.
I once had a woman ask me over for to watch the Stooperbowl, and the way she said it made me think I was the only person being asked. She was married but her husband was away, and I think this was when I was still married to my ex and she was still locked up. She wasn't bad looking but I wasn't interested, and I made a comment about her asking a guy over by herself. She responded that she felt safe with me and I responded that no guy wants to be thought of as 'safe'. I don't know if she really wanted someone over to watch the game or if she had other intentions.
Amy said "...e-mailing her a book report on how to be a better biker"
Totally off topic, but around here we prefer to be called cyclists. Bikers are people ride motorcycles.
William (wbhicks@hotmail.com) at August 22, 2009 10:02 PM
Ouch, Amy - that really hurt...
I know you're right. I have more close female friends than male, my male friends are generally great to hang out with but they're not up to support type stuff. Some are ex-girlfriends, some are people I was interested in but it never happened, some have really just been friends from the start. In some cases the situation is fine (going to weddings, looking after their kids, going out drinking with husbands type of fine), in others it's very strained, and the split there is pretty equal between the have-dones and have-not-dones (to be a bit crude). I definitely do the "do things for you to maintain the illusion that there's a relationship" thing, in my defense I've always sucked it up eventually and made a move - the last time I got knocked back after several months where I thought she was interested but holding back because I was tied up in a messy split from a long term live in girlfriend - once I was definitely free and clear I tried but I was wrong unfortunately...
Problem is it's easy to say move on and find someone else, but how do you genuinely offer that when you're still hung up on someone? The only solution I've found so far is time and wait till a person appears who makes you forget the last one. Not the best solution perhaps but better than dating when you're not ready for it. My question for everyone is - does cutting off contact with the person you're obsessed with make the process any faster? In my experience it doesn't seem to make much difference, you can either kill yourself seeing someone date other people or do it by wondering whether they are...
ltw at August 23, 2009 8:22 PM
How about helping a girl from a terrorist compound GUARDED by mountain lions? Ah... now that's manly!
Miss Q at August 24, 2009 11:06 AM
So, inviting a gal to your reading at poetry slams over and over again is not the best approach to find a girfriend? Glad I dodged that bullet :)
Current squeeze and I are still getting along fine and she had no doubt that our first date was a date, the rest of the dates too and we bothe enjoy each other.
Now, if I could only figure out a way for that pest I 'collected' in May to go away the rest of my time would be a bit more comfortable.
John Tagliaferro at August 24, 2009 11:40 AM
Regarding the vagina couch, made as an art project--of course her name is Willow. What else could it possibly be?
Karen at August 25, 2009 9:16 PM
This was a usefully written column with good advice. With such friends I usually pointed them to this raw essay by "Heartless Bitch", but now I am switching bookmarkes for them:
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
Steve at June 13, 2010 9:00 AM
I thing so.. every 3 or 4 years later change our bike helmet.. by the way thank you for good advice..
Shahidul Alam at April 22, 2016 2:13 AM
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