Gawking Tall
You were too conventional when you said that a man who is in a relationship but stares at other women is rude. I want a woman who is sexually loyal, but who stares as hard as she wants at men she finds appealing, and I will do the same (with women). It's a way to have fun together, to have life be an uninhibited overflowing of joy. I have no desire to actually have sex with another woman, but men evolved to stare and women evolved to be stared at. The human animal has such a lengthy evolutionary history that the more we allow people to safely express all sides of their nature, the happier they are. You're usually pretty good, but work a little harder to help people attain expressive freedom versus repressive pain.
--Enjoying Sexuality
I'd probably be less "conventional" if I were around 13 or 80, the ages at which adolescent rebellion seems to strike -- both perfect times to act out by donning the t-shirt "Ask me about my nipple rings."
These days, I find it often makes sense to follow convention -- all that boring stuff like stopping at red lights, greeting people with "Hello" instead of "Dirtbag!" and motioning the waiter over instead of beaning him on the head with a roll. In giving advice, however, I don't care about what's conventional or unconventional, just what seems to work. In this case, for most men, that's whatever keeps their wife or girlfriend from keeping them up all night with her weeping.
Had you bowed to the convention of reading before dashing off criticism, you might've noticed that I didn't say men were rude to look, just rude to let themselves get caught by the woman they're with. It is big of you to allow your woman to go around staring at men, but it doesn't work quite the same for the ladies. Men are far more aroused by visuals alone, while most women seem to need touch, talk, and connection, and male and female behavior in strip clubs best lays out the difference. Men often go alone, in hopes of having some sort of erotic experience. Women mainly go in groups, reports sociologist Beth Montemurro, as a bonding experience with their girlfriends. She found women were "rarely" turned on by the male strippers; instead, they described the experience as "disgusting," "mortifying," "humiliating" and "funny." So, sure, just like you, a woman might buy herself a lap dance, but when's the last time you got one because you were looking to make your buddies squeal with laughter?
Although beautiful young women stampede to marry goatish old men with private jets, few men would take the homely lady CEO over the hot young temp. Women are well aware that men are very looks driven, so while you may convince some gullible young thing that you're only checking out other women to liberate her from "repressive pain," she isn't going to feel too hot watching you give yourself whiplash whenever another woman walks by. And no, not even if you include her in the "fun" by letting her follow behind you and mop up your trail of drool, or as you like to call it, your "uninhibited overflowing of joy."
What kind of total nimrod writes, "I have no desire to actually have sex with another woman."
Because you have been castrated? Live in abject terror of being impotent?
I want to have sex with every good-looking woman I see, and every heterosexual man I know is the same.
Did Alkon write this letter to herself?
It is stupid posing like this (if a man really wrote this stupid letter) that leads to women like Alkon having zero clue to what they are talking about when they talk about men.
Men like sex, we love easy sex, we want sex all the time, we want sex on command, we want gorgeous nude women in groups to greet us when we come home, with cocktails and dinner, hot tubs going and pillows fluffed. That's what we want.
We do not want to pursue women, to date and blah, blah, blah. We want power to so we never have to do that charade again. That's a female fantasy. Totally.
Powerful men all through history do not pursue women. They have harems in-house of captured women, seduced women, bought women, any woman who looks good naked. That's what men want.
Now, do you finally understand men?
i-holier-than-thou at September 8, 2009 9:28 PM
Didn't your mother ever tell you it was rude to stare? I know someone blatently checking me out makes me uncomfortable and self-conscious, in an "oh my god do I have food on my face" kind of way. It's the same reason why you're not supposed to stare at someone, who, say is in a wheelchair or physically disfigured-it's impolite. If you can check out a hot guy/girl subtly, then fine, but when you're so obvious that other people start to notice, you've crossed the line of common courtesy.
Shannon at September 8, 2009 10:45 PM
Excellent answer, Amy. Men who say "you can stare too, if I get to do it" don't get it that women (at least, heterosexual ones--haven't seen data on lesbians or asexuals) aren't as inclined to stare. (Here I must insert disclaimer that some women are exceptions to the rule, because I bet dollars to donuts that some "enlightened" woman is going to pipe up about how she gawks at every non-deformed XY-chromosome-bearer who passes by). I feel no effect from merely seeing a "hot" guy--it's a pleasant sight, but that's about it.
a reader at September 9, 2009 1:43 AM
Yeah, that sounds about right. "Expressive freedom" sounds a lot like "caring about nobody's feelings but your own." That's why we have manners.
old rpm daddy at September 9, 2009 5:24 AM
An airline commute gone wrong left us in a bad Houston hotel, restaurant and bar closed. The only thing in walking distance, was a gentlemen's club. I have never had a problem with my husband going out to a strip club with the boys and didn't think I'd be bothered going into one myself. The food, drink and hospitality were great (especially since no one else was braving the tropical storm that night!) and if I'd been with just friends, no big deal. However, I discovered that I didn't really enjoy watching my husband watch other naked women. And he was being as discrete as possible with naked women crawling around on stage in front of us. I'm still not concerned about him going to one...my logical brain says its all good. We've got zero problems in the sex department, but there's that other voice that says you don't really like sitting there being measured against those super flexible, hot and supple 20 year olds. It's possible the LW's girlfriend enjoys the constant reminder of how hot other girls are...but I'd say most of us, not so much.
moreta at September 9, 2009 7:38 AM
Let's take the LW's analogy a little farther and see where it goes: "I'm going to express my sexuality by boffing other women! But guess what, honey, I'm not a chauvinist: You're free to boff other women too!"
Cousin Dave at September 9, 2009 7:42 AM
@Moreta: "However, I discovered that I didn't really enjoy watching my husband watch other naked women."
I'd be willing to bet he probably wasn't that comfortable himself, under the circumstances. I'm trying to picture being in such a place with my wife, but I just can't do it!
old rpm daddy at September 9, 2009 8:52 AM
Letter Writer;
Dude, you gotta get out of your "relationship." If she is nagging you about what you look at now, it will only get worse and worse in the future. A very controlling woman.
Besides, if you are young, you need to play the field, a lot. The time will come soon enough, young man, when the young girls will look right through you. Don't waste these years on monogamous relationships, especially with a shrew like the one you are writing about.
Life is sad for men. We get older, but our sex drives remain the same: We are only really attracted to young women, sexually speaking.
So young man, fill up while you can--you don't need a nagger at this stage of life.
Ron at September 9, 2009 9:30 AM
Essentially, it is rude to blatantly demonstrate to someone you are with that you have found something more fascinating than him/her.
This is true regardless of whether it is your boyfriend/girlfriend, your boss, your colleague, or the person you are sitting beside at the banquet. Staring at others, leaving to talk with others, answering your phone, texting - all of these actions indicate you have something better to do than engage in conversation with the person beside you.
Is it natural to look? Of course it is. But mature people with manners don't do so blatantly.
Tasha at September 9, 2009 10:18 AM
"Dude, you gotta get out of your "relationship." If she is nagging you about what you look at now, it will only get worse and worse in the future. A very controlling woman."
Dude didn't even say he was in a relationship, much less with someone who nags. Sounds more like he's single and describing his fantasy girl.
I can just see their dates together: gaping mouths, drool rolling down their chins as they start at the hot couple across the restaurant. Waiter has to snap his fingers in their faces to get their attention for a drink order.
Shannon at September 9, 2009 12:44 PM
Well, if they get something going with the hot couple in the restaurant, all the better!
Dessert could sweet and spicy, switching sugar around. Variety is the spice of life!
ron at September 9, 2009 1:07 PM
"You're usually pretty good, but work a little harder to help people attain expressive freedom versus repressive pain."
Excuse me, but since when is it Amy's job to validate LW's personally defined degree of so-called expressive freedom? Is that one of the services offered here? I didn't know she tailored to high-maintenance whiners.
Just checkin'.
Juliana at September 9, 2009 3:59 PM
I'm confused by this commentary:
"Powerful men all through history do not pursue women. They have harems in-house of captured women, seduced women, bought women, any woman who looks good naked. That's what men want."
So, powerful men throughout history don't pursue them, they assault, take and violate the law to get them. Whether true or not, what's your point? What does that have to do with being polite with your significant other and not ogle other women?
And last time I checked, you don't purchase something that you do not want.
nicole at September 9, 2009 4:04 PM
"The human animal has such a lengthy evolutionary history that the more we allow people to safely express all sides of their nature, the happier they are."
That is beyond asinine.
Tru at September 10, 2009 10:45 AM
Thanks Amy! You info gives me confidence that I got something else right in my novels. The couple pays close attention to each other, from initial corting all the way through marriage. Even when they visit exotic dance clubs.
I did borrow the attitude from what I do and the way I prefer the way my date to be too, but I never have taken a date to a strip club.
John Tagliaferro at September 10, 2009 12:01 PM
Holy crap i-holier-than-thou. Your caveman mentality to the interactions between men and women is repulsive. True, there are men who may fit the bill you describe - those that are rich and gorgeous have those benefits - but on the whole men want connection, respect, and appreciation just as much as women do. I'd be surprised if any woman in her right mind would want a man who is like those you describe.
E.L. at September 10, 2009 1:48 PM
How do you answer the question, from your wife or long term GF, "do I look good in this dress/outfit"? I believe you answer honestly, but with a positive approach. Something like, "that dress is alright but I think you look really good in the black dress" (assuming you really do like here in the black dress). If she asks you, "were you checking out that girl out over there"? I say "yes, I noticed her". Sometimes she won't like the answers but the credibility and trust you build up can be so valuable. Also, do you two have unedited discussions on sex? And, for instance, if she disapprovingly asks, "you don't like that do you?", do you cave and dishonestly say "no" or do you answer honestly? Again, she might not like hearing the answer sometimes, however, the trust and credibility it builds is priceless. Further, does your GF/wife truly feel like you want/desire her, or does she more likely feel you require her nondescript presence to fulfill a need? In my own experience when you approach those things properly, it means far less of an issue to check out eye candy (I noticed some appreciation of not just checking out girls that are all 8's and 9's and 10's/you like the girl next door look too). I found she'll check out other girls with you. She'll go to a strip club with you (go with you in a good way and let her "hair down"). I have no science to back this up, again, this is just my own experience. It was so much about how secure and trusting she felt toward you.
With that said:
A) Behavior that clearly indicates you are ignoring someone (for instance overt gawking), is just plane rude most of the time.
B) Sometimes she is just not in the mood. On Friday checking out the eye candy was all good. On Sunday checking out the eye candy bothers her a bit. What is the difference? I was never able to decipher a certain pattern as to why. I always accepted that if she didn't like it on Sunday, for whatever reason, that ultimately was the final word on it.
TW at September 10, 2009 9:52 PM
E.L.: Oh sheesh. Thomas Jefferson--incredible intellect. Loved his 15-year-old mulatto slavegirl. King David--many wives. Bill Clinton--need I say anything? John F. Kennedy--some say he shagged 1,000 women. Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie, famed author...I think he dumps one gorgeous wife even while she is coming out of labor...
What do all these men have in common: They are high-status, they have penises and testerone, and they are highly cultured and intelligent.
There is no way you can look at this group of men and say, "Men need to be love and appreciation, just like women."
Even our most-refined, highly intelligent men want lots of sex with lots of different gorgeous women.
As a woman, you just don't get it.
Your hubbie or boyfriend would cheat on you in a minute if a gorgeous young cutie wanted him. If he had lots of money, he would probably leave you.
Sorry, girls, that's the truth.
Just like you will find dang few women who spend all day fixing their own cars, working on septic tanks, or chasing guys based on their character. Really, that nice guy driving a streetsweeper? A saint. Yeah, tell me about all the women pursuing him.
Each sex (usually the corrupted word "gender" is used) has its strengths and weaknesses.
i-holier-than-thou at September 11, 2009 12:37 PM
So I, as a beautiful woman, should obviously treat men like garbage, seeing as how they truly view women. Since it's unrealistic to expect anything in the way of human interaction, just bang 'em and kick 'em out of the bed. Sounds great!
Chrissy at September 11, 2009 4:53 PM
Yes, Chrissy, you should start doing so as soon as possible! Why buy a pig when you can get 8 ounces of sausage for free?
i-holier-than-thou, I'm glad to know this. As I get older I find that taking care of a man is a lot of work (cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc. for two) and I'll know not to bother anymore, no matter how good my man is, because he will betray me at the first opportunity.
I'm the kind of woman who values character and would rather have that nice saint of a guy driving a street sweeper than a lot of the crap that's out there. But as you just pointed out, even the street sweeper can't possibly be nice or a saint because ALL men will betray women at the first possible chance.
Do men ever think of the possibility of growing old? None of those young cuties is probably going to want you when your 64 unless you have a lot of money. Otherwise, young girls find old guys creepy.
And without a lot of money, plan on living in a studio apartment or whatever your retirement can afford and surviving on Meals for the Elderly. You'll have to get takeout because there won't be a woman there to cook for you, to help you find your cane, or even to give a shit if you are alive. A bad smell emanating from your apartment will tell of your lonely death. I know this from seeing these lonely old men.
BTW, my first car was an AMC Gremlin. One does not own a car like that and not know how to fix it.
Rozita at September 11, 2009 10:53 PM
Rozita--You ever pull the tranny out on that car? Please. Maybe you changed the oil. Wow-wee-wee. AMC Gremlin, what a car.
Frankly, I think we should stop thinking marriage is the norm. It was an institution unknown in the New World when the Europeans arrived. It was not not really practiced in Asia, although loose polygamous arrangements were.
It was a practice started by the church in Europe, as a means of political control.
I agree with you, the young cuties will look the other way about the time a man reaches 45. I am not an expert, but I gather most prostitutes serve an older clientele. A guy goes to a hooker for the same reason a girl goes to the shrink. You feel better about yourself afterwards. The cost is about the same. Half of what hookers provide is mental service.
I also say women go in for recreational shopping, and guys go in for recreational sex. Which is better? Environmentally speaking, guys.
I am sorry to tell you how men really are. Probably I should not bother.
But every once in a while, after years and years of reading advice columns or hearing women talk in which the female fantasy of the world is held up as the standard, I pipe up.
In the female fantasy, your hubbie is devoted, doesn't even look at other women, never strays, and tells you that you are "special," "unique," and "wonderful." If he ever wanders, it is only for the lowest of reasons. And dogs don't really want to chase cats.
We men know we have to lie to women constantly, to have sex or keep the peace. So we do.
What guy ever told his date, "I really wanted to have sex with my new secretary, who is the hottest pistol I have ever seen, but she is out of my league, so I am dating you" ? We know the drill. We feign allegiance to the social mores established by women. But they are not our mores--as is obvious anytime a group of guys goes on vacation. (In a way, men are very repressed in modern Western society).
No wonder men divorce their wives, even at great financial expense.
It is too confining for men. What is in it for us? Your wife gets baggier and baggier, but you have to stay monogamous?
I did marry but my wife more than two decades younger than me, and I waited till I was past 45. It still chafes at me. I am not sure it is the right thing for any man. I have the nicest cell in the prison, but it is still a prison.
I think we would be better off dropping the fairy tales about God and sexual relations. Certainly, guys would be better off.
i-holier-than-thou at September 12, 2009 11:37 AM
Where did all these troglodytes come from? It's appearing like the first responses to Amy's columns are from those at the pounce trying to insist that Amy's not only wrong in her advice, but that there's something fundamentally wrong with her understanding, such as that she doesn't understand men or that she committed the unethical practice of writing to herself.
It suggests to me that some are not here for edification, but pursuing a personal vendetta.
And, holier-than-thou (you chose your name well, quoting Isaiah 65:5), men do love the pursuit.
The harem that you envision for yourself would never satisfy most men. The most attractive woman in the world will always be the one you don't have and the thrill is in the pursuit of her. This is why, when men marry in multiples, they don't marry them all at once, but in succession. The things you describe that are supposedly done by powerful men throughout history are a pursuit, of sorts.
Since you quote the Bible, you may recall the story of King David and Bath-sheba. David basically had it all, and could have gotten more had he asked (according to Nathan the Prophet), but what did he want? The enticing cutie who happened to belong to someone else. There's an example of a powerful man who could have had all the concubines he wanted who felt the need to pursue another.
Patrick at September 13, 2009 8:08 AM
Ahem, John Tagliaferro, your humble little book helper INSISTED that you give your book character that appealing trait of paying attention to your dates instead of whatever is slinking by, even in a strip joint.
Su at September 13, 2009 8:37 AM
The smartest thing any woman can do is never let a man think he's got her. Keep the chase going, always be just a bit out of reach. Keep those guys chasing after the ball (or the carrot?) at all times. Even though they act like they don't like it, they really do, and it's a lot more fun that way.
Chrissy at September 13, 2009 12:53 PM
So I am correct. Women should only use men for sex and should get rid of them since there is nothing in it for us. Chrissy, go out and have a ball!
ihtt, sorry that my ability to fix a car troubles you.
rozita at September 13, 2009 3:02 PM
First of all, for those unfamiliar with i-hole, I believe that if I were to bet money on him having been kicked in the head by a horse sometime in his adolescent years, I would have some serious mad money to spend.
I think there is a huge difference between a pretty woman catching a mans eye - causing the involuntary "second take" and the flat out gawking, (one is very cute, one is highly offensive).
Sometimes, I was the one staring at some gorgeous woman walking down the street while my date had his eyes fixed into a plate of mash potatoes *trying* not to look. While his effort was appreciated, I kinda felt bad when this happened -like "some chick must have worked you over good for being a man". I mean, if *I* was moved to look (as a heterosexual female) I can't really blame him for doing the same thing.
I don't care if they do the quick look with a sheepish grin, but it's bad manners to GAWK in the presence of a significant other, and even worse to start talking about what you saw in such detail that you degrade the person sitting across from you. Complete armature behavior, and that does not go unnoticed.
Feebie at September 13, 2009 3:03 PM
The smartest thing any woman can do is never let a man think he's got her. Keep the chase going, always be just a bit out of reach.
This can be fun at first, but it gets old, and it's manipulative. Also you run the risk of setting yourself up for a fall.
How do you know whether he really likes you, or is just caught-up in the chase?
Mike at September 14, 2009 10:20 AM
@i-holier: "I have the nicest cell in the prison, but it is still a prison."
Dude, I know you like to stir up the beehive a little bit, and for that reason I think you're a scream, but have you thought of anything else in your adult life besides getting laid?
old rpm daddy at September 14, 2009 1:12 PM
Actually, I enjoy lectures, museums, Kurosawa films, all sorts of elevated endeavors--I especially enjoy The New Yorker magazine, and highly recommend it to everyone.
But I also enjoy a day at the ballgame, hiking...and sexy women. Like all guys.
Isaac Bashevis Singer said(and certainly he was a cultivated fellow) he always found thrill in both the intellectual and in matters of the flesh.
If you read my posts, I cite many others--Thomas Jefferson, Bill Clinton, JFK--who obviously felt the same way.
I have not yet taken to shagging 15-year-old slave girls, however.
I guess in that regard, I am less sex-crazed than Thomas Jefferson. He certainly chose not to stay in the prison, yet I doubt he "only thought about sex."
He thought what he wanted to think about, and acted as he wanted--very similar to the course of action I maight have taken in his shoes.
BTW, this is a relationship and sex cloumn, so those topics come up. I post on other sites pertaining to the economy, energy issues, etc. Nevr talk about sex.
i-holier-than-thou at September 15, 2009 10:36 AM
Oh, I can dig it, I-Holier. I was just jerking your chain a little myself.
That said, you did seem pretty single-minded earlier: "Men like sex, we love easy sex, we want sex all the time ... gorgeous nude women in groups to greet us ... cocktails and dinner, hot tubs going and pillows fluffed. That's what we want."
How would one ever find the time to watch football?
old rpm daddy at September 16, 2009 8:22 AM
Sadly, sadly, dreams of empire have come to nought. Can only go home to the wife and farm some day. A modest thing, but thine own.
i-holier-than-thou at September 17, 2009 5:48 PM
I agree with Ms. Alkon's asseement. Very insightful.
Erudite Nurse at September 19, 2009 8:34 AM
I agree with Ms. Alkon's assessment. Very insightful.
Erudite Nurse at September 19, 2009 8:38 AM
"How do you know whether he really likes you, or is just caught-up in the chase?"
How many guys are self-aware enough to know the difference? And for those who are, would they really want the tedium that a lot of relationships devolve into?
There has to be mystery and spontaneity in a sexual relationship. Chasing after a woman is fun, from what I've heard from guys. (you know, she runs and giggles, you chase her, you catch her, she screams and laughs - apparently both people seem to be having fun?)
Chrissy at September 19, 2009 8:39 AM
You know i-holier-than-thou there are plenty of women who only want the hottest guy in the room, regardless of his money or status. I'm sure based on the way you talk you aren't one of the hot guys chicks lust after. That's the reason for your frustrated delusions.
Marcus at September 19, 2009 10:15 AM
Hello. And Bye.
IrrenryMommes at March 3, 2011 11:20 AM
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