Boycott Meets Girl
I don't think I'll ever truly tolerate "the guy should always make the first move" deal you advocate, Amy. I know it works in many, if not most, cases, but I'm so bloody tired of this expectation that men take all the risks in dating.
--A Guy
You don't have to tolerate this, same as you don't have to tolerate paying your rent -- providing you're willing to tolerate living under a bridge. But, if you'd like a girlfriend while you still have teeth, you should stop whining about asking women out and just do it. This doesn't necessarily mean making the first move, but maybe the first overt move. Women often make the first move by flirting with men they like, signaling their interest in being asked out. It's a dance. It isn't fair or unfair; it's simply what works -- how we're hard-wired to behave after a million-plus years of evolution. Still, if this really doesn't work for you, there is another option: Drive through the seedy side of town and roll down your window, and you're sure to get offers. Of course, bringing one of these honeys home to mom and getting her back to the corner before she charges you time-and-a-half may be a challenge.
I like that you have included in this piece the word "overt." That is the key that these men and women do not get. Making the first move does not mean that LW should saunter up to every woman at the bar in hopes of the law of averages working out in his favor. There should be a whole other subliminal conversation going on before he ever asks her out. Likewise, women need to actually "signal their interest," as you put it. If everything is working correctly, the guy should be almost certain of the answer he'll get BEFORE he asks a woman out.
NumberSix at January 19, 2010 9:41 PM
I think he should give up on women...he can live in a basement or switch teams...our only hope is that some aggressive woman doesn't find him and get pregnant...spineless guys breed other spineless guys...
Next time instead of writing a letter he should go to Home Depot and buy two testicles...
Red at January 20, 2010 5:46 AM
Sorry Amy, but I'm with the LW. You normally give good, straight up advice and are one of the most rational women I've read on relationships. But like most other women, you expect men to read minds.
Women don't flirt just because they're interested. They flirt because it's fun. They flirt to make their boyfriend jealous. They flirt to keep in practice. Then, when you ask them out, they say, "Oh, gosh, I didn't think you'd take me SERIOUSLY."
Bill McNutt at January 20, 2010 6:48 AM
Yes, women DO flirt because we're interested. And some flirt to make their boyfriends jealous; those are the ones you can choose to avoid. Yes, most of us flirt because it's fun, too, but then you don't have to take THEM/us seriously. And some MEN flirt because they think it's fun, too, ya know. It's a dance, like Amy said. Learn the steps. Have a little fun with it yourself. And maybe stop taking yourself so seriously.
Just a thought.
o.O
Flynne at January 20, 2010 7:03 AM
But like most other women, you expect men to read minds.
There's no mind reading here. Body language and the subtleties of conversation can be difficult to master, but flirting is supposed to be fun, for both people. Sometimes people read each other wrong. It's a little embarrassing, but not fatal.
MonicaP at January 20, 2010 7:11 AM
But like most other women, you expect men to read minds.
No, I don't. Some women will flirt, some women will not. I expect men to grow some balls and ask women out -- women they like, not women who necessarily give clearcut "Fuck me now!" signals. Wow, gee, you might get rejected. Well, if 11 seconds of discomfort isn't worth it to you, go to Costco, and get a pallet of Kleenex and a pallet of lotion, and have a wonderful life with your hand.
Amy Alkon at January 20, 2010 7:21 AM
I blame Amazon.com for this.
People get used to the method - enter a few keywords, look up what you want, read a few reviews, get it shipped to your door with a money-back-guarantee - and they expect to port that to every facet of their lives.
I remember when we had to go OUT to get what we want, look around, actually ask help from people...it was horrible. You kids don't know how good you have it.
Get off my lawn!
Vinnie Bartilucci at January 20, 2010 9:04 AM
I don't think I'll ever truly tolerate "the guy should always make the first move" deal you advocate, Amy.
Actually I kinda thought that Amy advocated the deal of "who ever is interested should make a move" regardless of gender or whatever characteristic.
Danny at January 20, 2010 9:28 AM
Geeeeeez. Aren't we maybe in just a little much of a hurry to tell LW to go fuck himself (literally?)
Take a deep breath, people. Quoting an opinion or ideal isn't the same as signing for the Nazi party... It's actually more like signing on for the American one. Put down the i-stones.
As for the original topic, it can be hard to decipher who's flirting for fun, and who is making a genuine overture. But hey! Try, try again! Get back in the saddle. Ka will provide and all that. Eventually, you'll find that special lady.
Chronotrigger at January 20, 2010 9:41 AM
"men take all the risks in dating"
Yes, grasshopper, the ritual of dating is fraught with peril. Fraught, I say! It is a path on which only the truly brave should set foot. It is not for the weak and the whiny, of either sex. You might just want to stay home.
Pricklypear at January 20, 2010 9:58 AM
Tolerate? That's an interesting word choice.
"I won't tolerate this guy-makes-the-first-move deal, I tell you! I won't tolerate it!"
"Hey fellas, you up for some Dungeons and Dragons this Saturday? How about a Star Trek marathon?"
old rpm daddy at January 20, 2010 10:20 AM
"Hey fellas, you up for some Dungeons and Dragons this Saturday? How about a Star Trek marathon?"
Thanks for the offer, rpm daddy, but I have to wait for some furniture to be delivered this Saturday. How about next weekend. I really enjoy those Star Trek DVDs.
Thomas Fullery at January 20, 2010 10:41 AM
"you up for some Dungeons and Dragons this Saturday?"
Ah, Dungeons and Dragons. A friend of mine got me involved in a D&D group many moons ago, when she was in college and got involved with a Dungeon Master. (That sounds so much more interesting than it turned out to be.) I was one of the four girls in the group, along with seven or more guys, most of whom were also in college, and living at home. And cute, too.
Nerd city, right? Maybe. We baked a lot of brain cells, ate a lot of pizza, went to movies, paired up, broke up...
It only lasted about a year, but it was one of the most fun years of my life.
Star Trek marathons, however, you can keep.
Pricklypear at January 20, 2010 11:24 AM
Oh, yeah, I intended to make a point about dating in that little memory lane trip, but I forgot what it was. Maybe it was how when you are part of a group like that, dating doesn't seem like such a big damn deal. You talk to someone in the group, find out you like each other, and there you go.
Pricklypear at January 20, 2010 11:27 AM
Yes, the guy needs to make the first move. That's not an arbitrary social rule; that's the way the system works. But I can tell you, from personal experience, that a constant stream of rejection really wears you down after a while.
So when that happens, you just need to take a break. Forget about asking women out for a while, and don't put yourself out on account of any particular woman. Oh, be decent towards them, certainly; don't be mean, but don't be eager to do anything in particular for/with them either. Take 'em off the pedestal for a while.
Now, while you're taking this break, start analyzing the patterns of behavior that you are running into. I've been exactly where you are. I racked up more rejections and stand-ups than Krispy Kreme has doughnuts. So I took that break. I actually went as far as to get some self-help and sexual psychology books.
I started to realize that part of my problem was that I wasn't sorting out flirting from ordinary social pleasantries. I grew up in a situation where I seldom had contact with girls my own age, and I had no girlfriends -- or even girl friends -- when I was a teenager. So I never learned any of that stuff. It was rather embarassing to admit to myself that, at the age of 30, I still had some of the social development of a 12-year-old. Oh, I was fine in a business situation. But in a social situation, I was beyond clueless.
So I had to spend a lot of time, not only reading but doing something I had never done before: observing people. Watching how they interacted. That's where I really started to notice it. For example, I'd go to a bar, sit down off in a corner by myself, and nurse a beer while I watched people. Anyone who saw me probably thought I was weird, but I didn't care; I knew that if I got involved in the interaction, it would wind up being colored by my own previous experiences. I wanted to watch people in the wild, so to speak.
The second thing I learned was after I started dating again. It went better in that I had dates accepted, but then I suddenly became the king of being stood up. I'd call and ask what happened, and she'd sorta kinda apologize and we'd make another date. And I'd get stood up again. And eventually I came to my second realization: there are good women and not-so-good women. I made a rule for myself. The rule was: you stand me up on the first or second date, that's it. I don't call you back; I don't ask for another date, nothing. No excuses and no second chances. That sounds harsh, but I had to do it because I was being taken advantage of.
The third thing that I learned, after making this rule, was that I lived in an area of the country that is very attractive to phony people. That problem solved itself when the company I worked for started cutting back, and in the face of being potentially laid off, I accepted another job elsewhere.
I learned one more thing when I decided that I wanted to get serious about dating. Which is: Dating services (real ones, not those free Internet things) do have one outstanding aspect: no one will pay all the money and go through all the bother of joining those things unless they really want to find someone. It's too much money and hassle to join if you just want to tease or cruise. And besides, they had rules about lookie-lu's -- anyone who turned down too many dates in too short a time would get kicked out. So if you're at your wit's end and absolutely nothing is working, that's something to consider.
Cousin Dave at January 20, 2010 11:57 AM
I think it's also a matter of culture. Where I live (the Netherlands), it's often the girl who makes the first 'real' move, while the guys try to draw their attention by acting macho and using liters upon liters of hairgel and pimplecream. It's not uncommon for a guy to ask a girl out though, but usually the girl is the one to 'move in for the kill'.
Sanne at January 20, 2010 12:01 PM
@Pricklypear: "Maybe it was how when you are part of a group like that, dating doesn't seem like such a big damn deal. You talk to someone in the group, find out you like each other, and there you go."
Which is probably the best point made in the comment thread so far. I was just making a dateless nerd joke (I can do that, I've been there). As you said, if you spend time with people you like, the whole question of tolerating what's mostly human behavior becomes irrelevant.
On a side note, I did my share of Dungeons and Dragons myself, years ago. And recently, I made my 13-year-old daughter sit down and watch some old Star Trek episodes with me. She liked the one with Joan Collins, and thought the one with the fuzzy little animals overruning the Enterprise was pretty funny. She's never watched them again, though.
old rpm daddy at January 20, 2010 12:10 PM
On a side note, I did my share of Dungeons and Dragons myself, years ago.
Err...I still play D&D. It's more fun with adults than it is with kids because we can afford good beer and cheese.
Slinking away now.
MonicaP at January 20, 2010 12:24 PM
Oh, don't slink away, MonicaP! Hell, I'd still play D&D if I had time. As it is, my main gaming fix is getting a few minutes of Morrowind on my computer if I'm not checking my kids' homework or chasing papers for my wife's business.
As we drift further and further off topic...
old rpm daddy at January 20, 2010 12:39 PM
My group slowly evaporated. We were all in our twenties, and people graduated, joined the military, moved away, and the whole "flavor" (in a word, if I may, so to speak, if you will) changed.
Topic? What topic?
Pricklypear at January 20, 2010 1:10 PM
I _think_ I've made the first move a lot of times, but I also think that may be "woman-think" vs. "man-think." I've certainly gone up to a cute guy in a club and struck up a conversation, I've asked if someone would like to go get coffee sometime, I've even (gasp!) asked men to dance. But really, I don't think in any of those cases I would have necessarily moved to "close the deal" if I didn't think the guy was likely to be interested. I've always waited for him to give me a "yes, I'm interested in you" signal. And I've certainly agonized over the "do I call?" "do I text?" "how long after he e-mailed me can I reply?" type stuff. So maybe I'm just a slightly ballsy Rules Girl.
anathema at January 20, 2010 1:14 PM
This doesn't necessarily mean making the first move, but maybe the first overt move. Women often make the first move by flirting with men they like, signaling their interest in being asked out.
This is the part a lot of people miss. Women also put themselves out there by flirting. We have to hope we're doing it effectively enough to get men to take the next step. Neither men nor women have it better. It's just different steps in the dance.
BTW: Morrowind is huge and I never finished it because I kept getting sidetracked. Pick up Dragon Age.
MonicaP at January 20, 2010 2:22 PM
He's frustrated! Poor guy, give him a break! It's a hard world out there trying to find the right partner. Meybe he should start going to church and praying, he might find some solace and comfort? Meybe God will hear his prayers and deliver unto him his own Eve of Eden...
...
...
...
NAAAAAH... he's just gonna keep whining that it's all on HIM to find the perfect mate and chase every eligible prospect away by radiating his misery.
Flirt, befriend, have fun, and stop having such angst-y expectations!
tori at January 21, 2010 10:27 AM
Sanne
I was deployed to Afghanistan for a year and worked with the Dutch.
Y'all got some fine, tall women. That is a mountain I would really like to climb.
RichardCook at January 21, 2010 6:37 PM
Cousin Dave said something that really struck me as peculiar... "I made a rule for myself. The rule was: you stand me up on the first or second date, that's it. I don't call you back"...
~wow~ he would allow a 2nd date from someone who stood him up for the FIRST date?? What a lack of self esteem, man!
Anyone who stands up the person on their first date doesn't deserve a 2nd chance. Period.
Bluejean Baby at January 21, 2010 7:44 PM
"~wow~ he would allow a 2nd date from someone who stood him up for the FIRST date?? "
Maybe what Cousin Dave meant is if someone stood him up on the second date who didn't stand him up on the first date.
MIOnline at January 22, 2010 12:18 PM
Nerds make bad dates, but good mates.
I know it's been said that it takes 250,000 years for evolution to work on changing something as basic as the sexual reproduction strategies, but in fact, evolution can work much faster than that. And never forget that with a global population of 6 billion plus, there's plenty of mutants. A lot of them seem to live near me, in Silicon Valley. If your mutant is a frickin' math genius, has a great sense of humor and is kind and generous, does he really have to be a macho caveman to be worth your time?
Ladies, a nerd is worth the extra trouble it takes to prod him to "chase" you. ("If you asked me out to dinner, I'd say yes.") True, his idea of romance is to spend Valentine's day installing the latest version of World of Warcraft on your gaming computer, but at least he will not start cheating on you with floozies the day after your honeymoon.
Remember, sexual selection is an ongoing process. You don't have to be a slave to the dumb mating decisions of your grandmothers. Help a nerd reproduce and you will be rewarded not only with a wonderful husband but with children who remain virgins until they are safely graduated from medical school.
Go nerds!
nerdlover at January 29, 2010 2:15 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/boycott-meets-g.html#comment-1691932">comment from nerdloverLadies, a nerd is worth the extra trouble it takes to prod him to "chase" you. ("If you asked me out to dinner, I'd say yes.") True, his idea of romance is to spend Valentine's day installing the latest version of World of Warcraft on your gaming computer,
My nerd calls these "computer support dates."
PS I hate Valentine's Day. My nerd is wonderful to me year round. My idea of "our special day" is any random Sunday, Wednesday, etc. People who don't treat each other like they forgot they love each other don't need Valentine's Day. Besides, restaurants are crowded and more expensive. Dumb day to go out.
Amy Alkon at January 29, 2010 4:15 PM
Amy, I have a nerd, too, and we feel the same way about Valentine's Day: "Dumb day to go out."
Karen at January 30, 2010 10:04 PM
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