Knit Booty Call
I left my husband for a co-worker I was having an affair with, and accidentally got pregnant. He wasn't thrilled, but manned up and married me. Sex soon dried up. We haven't had it for two years! He never hugs me, never says he loves me. I kissed him and he recoiled, saying I was "in his space." I asked why he married me. He said, "I never wanted to or to be a father, but now I have to deal with both." I know he isn't cheating (I always know where he is). I told him he was setting me up for an affair. He said, "Do what you need to do." I started sleeping with my ex-husband -- until his wife found out. My girlfriends say I should leave, that children are resilient, but I'm almost 40, and my 5-year-old son adores his father. We don't fight, but we don't talk, either, and he won't do anything with me unless our son's involved. I'm trying not to get jealous over their relationship.
--Not Miserable, Not Happy
This little boy isn't in your lives because you walked out on the porch one day as a stork in a UPS outfit was dropping him off in a basket: "Gotta sign for this kid, lady. And I think he needs his diaper changed. And soccer camp, a pricey math tutor, and a college education."
Since you aren't 11 and sneaking cigarettes behind the elementary school dumpster when you should be in sex ed, you know very well what happens when Mr. Sperm and Miss Egg have a meet 'n greet. If you really, really want to prevent it, you get an IUD and bring in ye olde latex windsock for backup. But, I'm guessing you gambled that having a kid would move your relationship to the next level. And lookie here, it did: into bitterness, envy, and resentment. Your husband's paying bigtime for his own cavalier approach to birth control: the unspoken understanding that he was up for a few hot minutes in the office supply closet, not 21 years in a suburban tract home in a pretty good school system.
Terribly sorry you aren't getting any, and that it's awful chilly in there, but it isn't like you bought a new purse that didn't quite have the pockets you need. Your right to be all about you ended the day another human being came out of your body. Those so-called "resilient" children of parents who've split up have the worst outcomes across the board -- in everything from school performance to emotional stability to their own relationships as adults. Unless your home life is so ugly that your kid would be better off if you divorced, you and Frosty need to "do what you need to do" to make this work the best you can.
Although he was as big a boob as you were about birth control, your best chance of thawing him a little is expressing remorse for sucking him into this situation. Give him props for what a great dad he's been, and ask him to team up with you to do right by your kid. This isn't about getting him from "you're in my space" to "you're the light of my life," but getting him to a couples therapist so you can figure out how to be a couple of loving (or at least friendly) roommates raising a kid together. This kid, like all kids, deserves a fairytale childhood: parents who make him believe he was born because Mommy and Daddy loved each other sooo much!...not because they were all "Gee whiz, we had no idea that could happen from a toilet seat!"
Great advice, Amy! It's hard to believe that airheads like the LW still exist. Not using any type of birth control whilst having sex with an acquaintence who might know your first name - & then again, might not - is always a huge mistake. Worse yet, is forcing the idiot to marry you. It is for this reason - people as stupid as the LW - that abortion was invented, sorry to say. I'm not an advocate of AoD (abortion on demand), but i'm even farther away from advocating that people who clearly don't love each other should marry just because she got pregnant.
Bluejean Baby at January 26, 2010 8:00 PM
Anyone else bothered by the "I always know where he is" line that she slid in there so parenthetically? That, along with being jealous over her son's relationship with his father (?!) just screams "I need someone, anyone, to fulfill me!" So many of these letters from women seem to boil down to that. She needed someone in the first place, so she got married. Then, when things cooled off, she needed a new someone to replace him. Now that things are cooling of with him, she needs a new new someone to replace the new someone. Well, guess what, lady, you do have someone...a 5-year-old you hoped would bungee-cord the new someone to you for life. Time to start thinking about him for once, as well as to stop being jealous that his father loves him. Can't harp on that one enough.
Also, "ye olde latex windsock" brings forth highly amusing mental images.
NumberSix at January 26, 2010 8:31 PM
Ugh. This woman is so repulsive, I feel ill just reading her letter.
In Amy's place, I might have advised her to put the kid up in foster care. Not an ideal situation for a child, but are his chances really so much better with her?
She popped a kid out of her like is was some new accessory intended to make the man of her dreams fall at her feet. This is not a bargaining chip she made. It's a dependent human being whose success in life is going to depend largely on what happens to him during these years.
LW, on the off-chance that you're reading this, FUCK YOU! It's nothing CPS can charge you with, but you're every bit the child abuser as a drunk who comes home every night and beats his kids senseless.
Patrick at January 26, 2010 11:38 PM
Check out this e-mail I got from a reader:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/27/we_get_mail_1.html
Amy Alkon at January 27, 2010 12:07 AM
LW, on the off-chance that you're reading this, FUCK YOU! It's nothing CPS can charge you with, but you're every bit the child abuser as a drunk who comes home every night and beats his kids senseless.
Posted by: Patrick
Perhahs not in severity Patrick, but certinly in kind
lujlp at January 27, 2010 3:16 AM
"In Amy's place, I might have advised her to put the kid up in foster care. Not an ideal situation for a child, but are his chances really so much better with her?" (Patrick)
Um Patrick, why should Foster care be your first thought? Hubby may not have WANTED to be a Dad, but even she admits he's a good one to the kid so why should he be taken out of the loop?
If this woman is really so unfulfilled as all that, she should 'woman up' and leave the child with his Dad whilst she moves on to bugger up someone else.
JH at January 27, 2010 4:51 AM
A tragic situation, but one that could be salvagable if both the LW and her husband made an effort. He's not entirely blameless, you know. I agree with Amy that maybe some counseling could help. But they both have to want it to help. Good luck to all of them, but especially the little boy. Once again, an innocent victim is at the mercy of a coupla idiots.
Flynne at January 27, 2010 5:22 AM
Uh, Patrick? Maybe just a wee bit harsh there? I mean, I agree that she's made some very selfish decisions and on the precipice of making some even bigger, more selfish decisions that could greatly affect her poor kids life--and hopefully she will take the hard, no-nonsense advice that Amy gave...but "FU" and equating her to a drunken child beater is hardly fair.
She's a human being and I don't read anywhere that she's anything less than a loving mother. She's simply debating whether she does the selfish thing--leave a stable, if chilly home situation to try to satisfy her own needs--or the right thing, which surely she knows in her heart is the right thing--by her child. Give her credit for writing to Amy for advice--whom she'd have to know wouldn't sugar coat--and hope that for the sake of her little boy, she does take her advice.
To LW, you already know the right thing to do--so just do it. Don't screw up this kid's life--like Amy said, it's not all about you anymore. Be the best mom you can be and don't listen to the "friends" who advise you to look out for number one--instead make sure your kid is number one.
other Beth at January 27, 2010 5:39 AM
"Anyone else bothered by the "I always know where he is" line that she slid in there so parenthetically?"
You beat me to it. That line is probably the main reason he's pulling away. If there's anything that will make a man turn down sex, it's feeling like he's under a microscope all the time. The more she keeps tabs on him, the more he's going to want to have some space.
WayneB at January 27, 2010 6:13 AM
A+ Amy. Spot on again. I wish people would say irresponsible pregnancy instead of "accidental pregnancy."
David M. at January 27, 2010 6:31 AM
Oh! And free love isn't always free.
David M. at January 27, 2010 6:32 AM
"In Amy's place, I might have advised her to put the kid up in foster care."
Your advice,Patrick, is perhaps the single worst idea ever posted on the internet.
If you know what foster care is relative to the actual parents in most cases, you would not say this. There is a reason a parent's face goes pale when they hear the state is going to place their child in foster care.
Letterwriter, nothing I say will make any difference to you. At 40, you are who you are.
I only hope others will see your coming mistakes as lessons as to what to avoid. I have little doubt you will soon find "love" with someone else, divorce, sue for custody and child support, and reset your narcissistic failure trap all over again. This time you will close your misery-inducing jaws on a new guy and ruin your son's life in the process.
Too bad really. Because to be a good person, all you have to do is put in 13 more years at giving him some stability. Then, when your son leaves home, he could look back on the stable, healthy childhood you provided. And that is what you owe him, even if providing that costs you some chances at your own happiness.
If that level of self-sacrifice sounds difficult, well, tough shit. Welcome to being a parent: we are all oxen for our children.
Spartee at January 27, 2010 6:55 AM
In Amy's place, I might have advised her to put the kid up in foster care. Not an ideal situation for a child, but are his chances really so much better with her?
You've already been hit pretty hard for this, but I'd say yes, yes they are better with her, unless the home situation is something out of Flowers in the Attic.
MonicaP at January 27, 2010 7:08 AM
He'd be happier if he were less of a dick about the situation. If you're on the Island, you might as well make the most of it.
What might have been was never going to be as good as he imagined it, anyway. Some of the best times are things that just happen while you're planning something else.
MarkD at January 27, 2010 7:16 AM
Families aren't like Lego blocks. While you may have to in really extreme cases, you can't cavalierly take them apart and reassemble them at will. The pieces rarely go back together right. Like the other commenters have said, LW's actions should be directed toward her son's welfare. The little guy adores his daddy. Do not do anything to mess that up.
By the way: Patrick, dude, you really had the Harsh-o-Matic turned up to 11 today, huh?
old rpm daddy at January 27, 2010 7:19 AM
So you "accidentally" got pregnant while having an affair with a man who didn't even want kids because you didn't use birth control and now you are unhappy because that same man is filled with resentment and bitterness and your marriage is failing.
Shocking. Really. Never saw that coming.
Spartee said: I only hope others will see your coming mistakes as lessons as to what to avoid. I have little doubt you will soon find "love" with someone else, divorce, sue for custody and child support, and reset your narcissistic failure trap all over again. This time you will close your misery-inducing jaws on a new guy and ruin your son's life in the process.
Too bad really. Because to be a good person, all you have to do is put in 13 more years at giving him some stability. Then, when your son leaves home, he could look back on the stable, healthy childhood you provided. And that is what you owe him, even if providing that costs you some chances at your own happiness.
If that level of self-sacrifice sounds difficult, well, tough shit. Welcome to being a parent: we are all oxen for our children... End Quote...
Well said and I couldn't have said it better myself.
Sabrina at January 27, 2010 7:31 AM
One thing has been missing from the comments: She went back to sleeping with her ex-husband -- until his wife found out. Leaving out entirely that her ex is hardly one of nature's noblemen, how incredibly scummy is this? I feel so badly for this little boy; his mother is a raging narcissist with absolutely no ethics or morals.
Dana at January 27, 2010 7:59 AM
There is plenty of bad behavior to spread around here. The train is led by our LW, but the ex-husband, and current husband (who once-upon-a-time had no problem screwing a married woman) are hardly innocent victims here.
All anybody can hope for here is that LW takes Amy's advice, gives up a bit of herself for her kid, and maybe discovers that life is a lot richer when you are interested in more than just satisfying your own immediate desires.
With a little luck, current hubby will see this light too.
For them, it should be all about the boy. If they work to hang on to that perspective, they migh even learn to like one another.
railmeat at January 27, 2010 8:58 AM
LW is a complete loser. But really, it must be a joke, because how many people would admit they are an idiot like this???
Seriously, Dana hit the nail right on the head. Perhaps foster care IS the answer here, or at least putting the child with another relative. This woman needs to get her life straight before she can take care of a child. I have been a single dad now for two years since I defeated MY narcissistic ex wife who tried the old move-away in trial, and i will tell you I put my dating life on the backburner.
There is no time to play single girl (or married and looking) when you have a child to take care of. The child is the number one priority!!!
mike at January 27, 2010 9:07 AM
Jeeze Mike - what would you have thought if you ex-wife had taken your advice about foster care for YOUR child??
I would think that you, as a single dad, above most people, would understand that the boy in question has TWO parents - one who even by LW's estimation is crazy about his dad.
And yet you completely marginalize that relationship with your comments above.
Maybe you want to rethink that . . . . ??
railmeat at January 27, 2010 9:15 AM
What an awful person...and her friends encourage her self-centered narcissism. LW, YOU don't want to be miserable? Ever stop to think about all of the other people you've made miserable?
ahw at January 27, 2010 9:22 AM
Ok as a person who grew up in a home where the parents married for the sake of the child, I can say my sympathy is completely for said child. And normally I agree with Amy but I have to say, if the situation in the home is negative, or they fight alot, it may be better for the child to have two homes. I used to wish my parents would divorce just so the fighting would stop. Children are very sensitive, I'm sure he can sense the tension. From my viewpoint it doesn't seem either of you had the right to bring a child into this world, you BOTH seem incredibly selfish. However he atleast seems to be trying to do what is best for the child. LW you went out and had an affair with the your ex after he had remarried. Your husband, by your own words, has atleast remained faithful. As much as he is equally to blame for this situation, he actually seems to be the more responsible in this relationship, which isn't saying a whole lot. If you're going to leave, go by yourself. You don't have the right to screw up your sons life too!
hisprincess at January 27, 2010 9:37 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/knit-booty-call.html#comment-1691353">comment from hisprincessif the situation in the home is negative, or they fight alot, it may be better for the child to have two homes.
Um, obviously -- which is why I said something to that effect above.
Amy Alkon at January 27, 2010 10:11 AM
I'm bothered by a few things: Had an affair, got pregnant (accidentally on purpose), lack of remorse, always knows where he is, general self-centeredness, had another affair, suggestion that "kids are resilient" so it's ok to hurt them, sense that her behavior has no bearing on her circumstances, philosophy of life informed by (probably) wine-fueled bitchfests with "girlfriends".
This is a toxic person.
Someone up there mentioned the desire to disinfect after reading her letter. Couldn't agree more.
Robin at January 27, 2010 11:24 AM
I pretty much agree with above posters but just because of my background as a fact-checker (aka, advocate for random weird information), birth control does fail. I had a teacher in high school who told us the horror story that, after getting pregnant using condoms., she went on the pill. And eventually got pregnant? How? Well, that "1 in a million" has to be someone. She of course told us high school girls this as a "scared straight" story, and boy has it stuck with me.
Of course the LW probably wasn't that 1 in a million, she probably messed up her birth control, etc. (I got pregnant in college after "just missing one or two pills and taking them the next day." I was stupid. I got an abortion. I'm not proud of that, but it's a pretty good lesson about having to be 100% on it (the pill packets even tell you to double up if you miss a pill, but apparently if you're very young and fertile, that can be enough to screw it up.)
I agree the "I always know where he is" is just weird. Even when my husband was deathly ill and home on disability I didn't *always* know where he was. If his meds were working, he could shuffle off to a movie, or get together with friends. It would have freaked me out if he checked in every 5 minutes (Text #532: "At the store. Bought Oreos. Walking home now down Alcatraz, gonna turn right at Broadway.")
anathema at January 27, 2010 12:02 PM
I think it's very telling that the LW refers to her current husband as "a co-worker" and her ex as her "husband." She knows she made a mistake, and bigtime—since she's shagging the ex (who is a fool, by the way).
This woman needs to be alone (no husband, no boyfriend, no kids) until she gets over the "Grass Is Always Greener And By The Way It's Also About Me" Syndrome.
Razor at January 27, 2010 12:15 PM
This woman needs to be alone (no husband, no boyfriend, no kids) until she gets over the "Grass Is Always Greener And By The Way It's Also About Me" Syndrome.
I doubt her kid thinks she needs to be alone. I bet he thinks she needs to suck it up and be a good mother.
MonicaP at January 27, 2010 12:56 PM
Depressing, idiots all around. Poor kid. I'd have some sympathy for the ex husband except that he's almost a bigger idiot than she is.
Oh and latex windsock, now theres an image...
Sio at January 27, 2010 1:00 PM
"I have little doubt you will soon find "love" with someone else, divorce, sue for custody and child support, and reset your narcissistic failure trap all over again. This time you will close your misery-inducing jaws on a new guy and ruin your son's life in the process."
Best two lines in the comments section. I'll be using "narcissistic failure trap" at the first opportunity (with citation, of course), thanks!
no one in particular at January 27, 2010 1:34 PM
hisprincess said: "I used to wish my parents would divorce just so the fighting would stop."
My parents fought a lot when I was growing up, too (not violently, that would be different, but with a lot of screaming and yelling), and I remember wishing this as well. (I also read a lot of Paula Danziger books, and I think I assumed that divorce was just the natural progression.)
A few years later, I started really getting to know peers that had divorced parents, and understanding how complex, unstable, and difficult their lives were. I continued to notice that these problems appeared to stick with kids of divorce through college and grad school; even if they were away from their parents, they still appeared to have issues with relationships, responsibilities, and loyalties. Now that I'm an adult, I've noticed that almost all of the people that drift into my social circle are not children of divorce, and I think that there is a reason for that.
I thank God that my parents were selfless enough to stick it out.
Lyssa at January 27, 2010 5:34 PM
--Not Miserable, Not Happy
but an idiot.
mpetrie98 at January 27, 2010 7:52 PM
One need not always think of being a child of divorced parents as a stigma liable to lead to a lifetime of instability or emotional problems. My parents divorced when I was very young, and while things weren't always easy growing up (they weren't for the kids I knew whose parents were together either!), there are certain advantages that come with having parents who are divorced. For example, I benefit from the advice and perspective of more than two parents thanks to my step parents. Having the chance to live both with my dad, who received custody, and my mom during extended visits, etc., enabled me to get used to transitions, learn about life in different states, see two sets of choices as far a lifestyle (think entirely different tastes in community, housing, activities, etc.) and how people vary across the country. As an adult, this has made striking out on my own a much less daunting prospect than it was for my friends who came from nuclear families.
While toughing it out is certainly a noble goal, kids have an uncanny ability to sense when something isn't right, even if there isn't a lot of yelling going on. Is modeling a dysfunctional marriage with its sole focus on the child and no fondness between the parents for each other necessarily a healthy thing for the son as he grows up? Will it predispose him to seeking a similar mate who he doesn't care for, but is staying with because it's the 'right' thing to do?
WN at January 27, 2010 7:53 PM
Is modeling a dysfunctional marriage with its sole focus on the child and no fondness between the parents for each other necessarily a healthy thing for the son as he grows up?
I do not think that this is what the people who say "tough it out" mean (if I may speak for them a moment). Obviously, focusing on the child while sniping passive-aggressively at each other is not the right thing for anyone here. "Tough it out," in this situation, I take to mean actually make an effort to be, if not deliriously happy, content for the foreseeable future. Letting go of the massive stockpile of resentment here would be a great start for both husband and wife. They can't change what they did and now they must focus on their son. The LW even admits that the dad had a good relationship with their son, so he needs to focus a little of that warmth on her. And for someone who purports to want to be twirling-around-on-the-mountainside happy, she seems to be trying awfully hard to be unhappy. A little introspection (perhaps with professional help) would do her good if she can make the effort.
And, as far as the friends encouraging her to divorce the new husband, I wonder if she is exaggerating in her conversations with them? She seems like the kind of person to demonize someone who can't defend himself to get people on her side.
NumberSix at January 27, 2010 8:59 PM
but I'm almost 40
Okay, I hit "submit" before I reread this line. I think the LW may actually be realizing the nice little mess she has built around herself. She says the above line, with all it's "women have a better chance of being killed by a terrorist than finding a husband after age 35" bullshit. But, in the very next phrase, she recognizes that her son adores his dad. She is obviously lost here, but does not have the strength of character to make her own decisions. She has been letting the actions of others dictate her own. I think that with a professional to help her, this family could peacefully coexist until the boy gets out on his own.
NumberSix at January 27, 2010 9:07 PM
I'm not even going to bother ripping into the LW since I'm late to the party and it's been comprehensively done. Although lots of this situation is really creepy, to be fair she's trying to work out the right thing to do from now on - although shagging the ex-husband after he remarried wasn't it...
But something occurred to me - she went back to her ex, new wife has found out and as far as we know it hasn't broken them up - maybe she should introduce her current husband to them and suggest some discreet swing nights? Maybe hubby and wife-in-law will hit it off? Works for everyone - LW and ex get sex, ex's current wife gets revenge, current husband obviously has no problem with screwing a married woman - and the poor kid gets happy (or at least contented) parents.
Any thoughts?
Ltw at January 28, 2010 4:48 AM
your best chance of thawing him a little is expressing remorse for sucking him into this situation
Small correction to your advice Amy - if she had "sucked him in", they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Apart from explaining her smudged lipstick to the first husband...
And that concludes the crass and unnecessary commentary for the day.
Ltw at January 28, 2010 4:57 AM
Okay, so once again, I feel the need to put my 2 cents in on this one.
I agree that the LW is an idiot who is out for (mostly) her own gain. Yes, she was so very, very wrong for the affair, and then to divorce hubby and marry the baby-daddy. Stupid at best. However, does no one realize that the new hubby has a stake in this as well? The thing that pisses me off in these situations is that for the most part, no one really expects the man to be anything but a spoiled little boy who is allowed to make his new wife miserable. All the advice here is to the LW. Well, i'm fairly certain that if this situation is to work at all, having her husband tell her to go ahead and have an affair is close to as bad as her having one with him in the first place. Yes, she needs to work it out, and no, she can't do it on her own. All i'm saying is that there are 2, count 'em, TWO adults in this situation......
jenney pinney at January 28, 2010 9:29 AM
Jenney, that is an excellent point and you are absolutley right. The husband/coworker is definitly accountable for his share of the mess as well.
Most of us are responding the way we are though because it was the LW who wrote looking for advise and not the husband. If he had written, I have no doubt that we would be ripping into him too.
Sabrina at January 28, 2010 9:40 AM
someone: Um Patrick, why should Foster care be your first thought? Hubby may not have WANTED to be a Dad, but even she admits he's a good one to the kid so why should he be taken out of the loop?
No, she never said her husband was a terrific father. She said her son adores his father. Children can adore their terrible father's too, you know. When they've been conditioned to accept what we would consider pretty disgusting, they can adore even an abuser.
And don't think that the kid isn't picking up on the fact that his daddy is actually physically repulsed by his mother.
If this woman is really so unfulfilled as all that, she should 'woman up' and leave the child with his Dad whilst she moves on to bugger up someone else.
So, the child should be left with a man who has admitted he doesn't want to be a father? I hope the rugrat didn't actually hear that. Terrible idea. Terrible.
MonicaP writes: You've already been hit pretty hard for this
Tough shit. My advice still stands. I happen to know quite a few foster parents, and I'd put that precious five year old in any one of their homes in a New York minutes. The foster parents I know, who sometimes end up adopting, are the most conscientious parents I have ever seen. They don't spank, they discipline fairly, assign reasonable chores and spend quality time with their children. Plus, the ones I know live in pretty decent homes.
Maybe the foster homes you know are something right out of Charles Dickens, but not the ones I know.
And no, I do not think I was at all harsh with the LW. She popped out a kid with the idea of creating a family accessory, not a sentient human being with needs and a future that is going to be influenced drastically by what happens during this time, and his slime of a mother didn't give one second's thought to that. Only, "let's see...how can I trap this guy into marrying me?" Very good. He's got a manipulative shrew for a mother, a dad who doesn't want to be one and can barely stand his mother.
Sounds like the fast track to success to me!
Sick, disgusting woman. /spit
Patrick at January 28, 2010 11:02 AM
Ok - the advice the LW is asking for? I had to reread her letter to find out what her question was.
We all make errors in judgment so while having the affair wasn't her most correct choice (she could have let her ex get her pregnant and raised a child with him), keeping the child wasn't her most correct choice (she could have aborted or given it up for adoption). Having an affair with her EX - now that was just human nature going back to what you know for comfort but still, not a great choice.
Now the choice she seems to be cogitating over is whether to stay in a cold marriage or follow her friends advice and leave.
I agree that she and this man should get couples counceling so they can find a way to raise this child in a respectful if not loving atmosphere. He liked her well enough to boink her after work, he can find enough like in his soul to make the living arrangement work. She craves to be loved, which she needs to work on in herself so she can be the balanced mother that child deserves.
Out of respect for her child, she should just buy herself a BOB and not be the village slut sneaking out and getting all sexed up with her ex and whoever else might make themselves available.
I feel sorry for her kid. I hope he can learn not to resent them for their poor choices and attitudes.
Tori at January 28, 2010 11:34 AM
No, she never said her husband was a terrific father. She said her son adores his father. Children can adore their terrible father's too, you know. When they've been conditioned to accept what we would consider pretty disgusting, they can adore even an abuser.
That's a mighty big assumption there. There's no evidence at all that this guy is a terrible father. If he were, I doubt LW would be this torn about leaving him. She'd be all, "Well, he's a dirtbag anyway." The fact that he did not want children doesn't mean he isn't doing his best now.
And I can point to just as many foster parents who are not good people: ones who make their foster kids eat bologna sandwiches for dinner while the "real" family sits at the "real" dinner table together each "real" dinner. I know some foster homes are good -- I grew up in one -- but others are not so good.
And even when foster parents are angels, they have one fatal flaw: They are not the kid's family. He would have to be be torn from the only life he has ever known, giving up his toys and clothes and friends, to live with strangers in a place he doesn't know. Foster care is a last-ditch situation, and if we're going to start doing this to kids, then it had better be for a better reason than that their parents are suboptimal.
So far, there's nothing here to suggest that this kid is living in a Lifetime movie. His mother is on the cusp of making a very bad choice, one Amy has hopefully talked her out of.
MonicaP at January 28, 2010 2:16 PM
No, she never said her husband was a terrific father. She said her son adores his father.
She did not say explicitly that her husband is a good father, but she did say that she was jealous of their relationship. Hubby is obviously giving some kind of warmth to the boy that he is not giving his wife, which leads her to crave it even more now that she knows he is capable of it.
NumberSix at January 28, 2010 2:17 PM
MonicaP: That's a mighty big assumption there.
No, the mighty big assumption is that her husband is a terrific father. She said nothing of the sort. There's also a mighty big assumption that claims I said that the guy is a terrible father. I said nothing of the sort.
I said that children can even "adore" abusive parents, and they can. The point being is that there is nothing, nothing, nothing that states that the guy has to be a "terrific" father because the child adores him.
I didn't say he was a terrible father. I said that you cannot infer that he's a terrific father because his five-year-old son adores him.
And I'm really fed up with having to waste time with replies to people who insisting on inferring things that were never said. Either learn to comprehend written English, or just don't reply to me at all, because I'll just ignore you.
NumberSix: She did not say explicitly that her husband is a good father, but she did say that she was jealous of their relationship. Hubby is obviously giving some kind of warmth to the boy that he is not giving his wife, which leads her to crave it even more now that she knows he is capable of it.
Still assumes facts not in evidence.
All we can know for certain (assuming we take this person at her word) is that the son has some kind of loving attachment to his father (despite the fact that his father is making no secret out of the fact that he never wanted to be one). Whether his relationship is positive or dysfunctional (or, more likely, somewhere in the middle) is not in evidence. The five-year-old cannot know what a healthy loving relationship between parent and child is. But we do know that's pretty much all he's got. He lacks the maturity to know what a good father-son relationship is, and even if he did, he has no other model to compare it to. Certainly not from his mother.
Also, I seriously doubt this woman knows what warmth is. She thinks of herself and only of herself. Honestly, the first person I thought of when I read her attitude toward making babies is Susan Smith. "Let's just make a baby. It will give me the leverage to get what I want."
In the same way, Susan Smith reasoned that since her children were in the way of getting what she wanted, she disposed of them.
(Now, watch. MonicaP is going to respond with, "Boy, that's a big assumption to assume she's going to kill her kid.")
Patrick at January 29, 2010 4:51 AM
My girlfriends say I should leave, that children are resilient, but I'm almost 40, and my 5-year-old son adores his father.
The reason that she doesn't want to leave is because she's almost 40. Her son's interests are secondary. I think that it's fair to assume that if she had better prospects, she'd pursue them.
And the fact that her girlfriends want her to leave is of no bearing. Women love to break up their friend's relationships. They'll almost always advise them to leave if there's any question of staying.
Anolo at January 29, 2010 6:11 AM
Women love to break up their friend's relationships. They'll almost always advise them to leave if there's any question of staying.
Got proof? Because that's really an unfair remark, painting all women with that brush. That's like saying all gays are totally flamboyant and in your face, because I know for fact that's not true. Nor is it true that all women "love to break up their friends' relationships". That's a terrible, untrue thing to say. Or even think.
Flynne at January 29, 2010 6:18 AM
Patrick- you ask that 5 year old (or ANY kid for that matter) if he wants to be torn away from his mommy, his dad who he adores, his house, neighborhood, friends, family, pets, toys and thrown into the foster care system. The ONLY message that any child would be able to derive from that is "Mommy and Daddy got rid of me because they don't want me." Plus the kid's probably going to blame himself-it's a guaranteed psychological fuck-up. What a horrible idea.
Shannon at January 29, 2010 6:21 AM
I'm sorry if I've upset you Flynne. And no, it's not true that all women love to break up their friend's relationships, but the behavior is common enough to generalize.
Anolo at January 29, 2010 6:44 AM
And I'm really fed up with having to waste time with replies to people who insisting on inferring things that were never said.
Then don't reply.
Either learn to comprehend written English, or just don't reply to me at all, because I'll just ignore you.
Oh, and here I went and replied again without learning to comprehend written English. You might even ignore me. My heart, it weeps.
Yes, you've made a lot of assumptions that have taken you to a place where ripping a child from his home seems like a good idea.
MonicaP at January 29, 2010 7:06 AM
Monica, give it up. When someone will not back down on a bad call, and in fact doubles down on that bad call when it is called to their attention, you should just stop arguing. Fortunately, you have that luxury on the internet.
Spartee at January 29, 2010 8:47 AM
I'm not upset, Anolo. Thanks for the apology but it wasn't really necessary. I was just a tad bothered that you seem to think that type of behavior is common enough that it can be generalized.
Flynne at January 29, 2010 11:17 AM
Why does everyone assume this woman purposely got pregnant to trap this man? I think that is a very stupid assumption. Not even woman who has an unplanned pregnancy has this intention. Some are just young and stupid or old and stupid. :) And a sometimes protection fails!!
I am one of those not so smart woman who actually got PG on accident and it CERTAINLY wasn't to trap the man I was with. I was 19 and having a kid was the last thing on my mind. We also did marry after less then a year of being together and after a few years I was miserable and the spark was gone and he was nasty and cold and I was young and wanted the life my 21-22 yr old friends had but we stuck through it and went to counseling and learn how to communicate and he learned to control his temper more. I learned how to be more kind to him and give him more credit for his support and dedication.
Well, guess what? We're probably the happiest we've ever been after 8 years. It's never going to be as thrilling as those 1st few months were but we are committed and love being around each other. Even other married couple think we're weird.
I think 70% of divorces are people that don't put enough time and effort into making it work. Nothing is easy all the time, hell even getting your manicure or your hair colored is an annoyance somedays. Get over yourself and all the things you're entitled to and give NOT giving up the second it gets hard a try!!
CC at January 29, 2010 11:21 AM
CC: Why does everyone assume this woman purposely got pregnant to trap this man?
I think accident or design is irrelevant. It served the purpose of entrapping a man who didn't want to be a father and didn't want to be her husband. (Gee, God knows why. Self-absorbed, thoughtless types are such great catches.)
And the cast of this little drama are all such prizes, aren't they? Husband number 1: cheats on current wife to have sex with the wife who divorced him and had an affair with another man. Husband number two: had an affair with a married woman, who divorced her husband to be with him, and becomes a husband to a woman he presently finds repulsive, and a reluctant father.
And the wife has so many shortcomings, it could fill a book.
The only redeeming character in this drama is the child, who is unfortunately powerless in this situation controlled by the three megalosers. He best hope lies away from them.
Patrick at January 29, 2010 12:02 PM
And I almost forgot, regarding the man whom everyone is so convinced is a terrific father: he's also given his wife (whom he despises) carte blanche to have an affair. Boy, he's a great father, isn't he? So open about the fact that he finds his son's mother repulsive, and tells her to go off and have an affair!
The child has probably picked up on the fact that his father detests his mother, and will eventually figure out that his mother is having an affair. I stand by my answer. The kid deserves a chance with decent human beings who are willing to try to make a good home for him. Not with these pathetic, selfish losers.
Patrick at January 29, 2010 12:12 PM
Patrick, the reason I am "assuming facts not in evidence" (while we're on the subject, have I completely missed the point of the comments section?) is that, as we have all said, this woman is not taking her son's feelings into account. She said in her letter that she is jealous of their relationship. She does not seem to care what her son thinks of her, so she is not jealous that her son gives his father the adoration he does not give her. So, if I may infer, she must then be jealous of whatever her husband is giving the son, whether it be love, affection, or just plain attention. And as a previous poster said, if the husband were abusive, the LW would have jumped at the chance to tell Amy. Are my written English comprehension skills up to your exacting standards?
NumberSix at January 29, 2010 12:43 PM
Boy, he's a great father, isn't he? So open about the fact that he finds his son's mother repulsive, and tells her to go off and have an affair!
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And we have not said that he is a terrific father, just that even the LW, who we all pretty much agree is horrifically selfish, recognizes that he cares at least somewhat about their son. At least one of them does. I would hope we would all agree also that it would be better if he could at least coexist peacefully with his wife for the time being so that their son could grow up in a stable home. I have been reading Amy's columns long enough to recognize what she would say, and, in fact, did say in this very column.
NumberSix at January 29, 2010 12:51 PM
NumberSix: The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But they are. Would a "terrific father" subject be living with a woman he is repulsed by? Especially when that woman is the child's mother? A terrific father would recognize that this situation is detrimental to the child's well-being. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the child has picked up his father's feelings toward his mother, and I don't that bodes well for his future at all.
And further evidence of his indifference to creating a stable environment for the child is the fact that he's given his wife permission to have an affair. Granted, the five year old won't know specifically what's going on if she does that, but that will create an environment that the child will pick up on.
Don't you agree?
Regarding the assumption that he's a "terrific father," some are assuming just that.
JH writes: "but even she admits he's a good [father]"
Amy's reply reads: Give him props for what a great dad he's been
He is not, by any means, a good dad. He is willfully creating a stressful for the child. Quite possibly there's something that Amy edited out of the original missive, but even if she did say he was a great father, why should we take her word for it? You think she has any idea of what a great parent is?
Some have suggested that she leave the child with his father and move out. Now, there's an idea. Join him in making a kid he never wanted, then leave him holding the bag.
I maintain that the child's best chance is away from these two morons.
Patrick at January 29, 2010 2:05 PM
Would a "terrific father" subject be living with a woman he is repulsed by?
You're right, I was extreme in my hurry to make a point. But, yes, I do think a good father can live with someone he is repulsed by and still try to make things okay for his son by not letting any of that bleed over to him. The chance to be a "terrific" father comes with making the effort to be the "loving (or friendly) roommates" that Amy suggests in the column.
And regarding anything left out of the column from the original letter(s), I know Amy has occasionally explained what she left out for length's sake. I would welcome that here if there is something that will show whether this child actually has one semi-caring parent. But, as you quoted, Amy does say to "give him props for what a great dad he's been," so maybe there was more of that explained in the original. I do not see any evidence in the letter we have to suggest that the father is abusive or neglectful of his son. And, yes, I do think we should take her (the LW's) word for what kind of dad he is (generally, at least), because, as I said before, this woman has effectively blamed the entire mess she's gotten herself into on him, and she still says that she is jealous over their relationship and that the dad won't do anything with [her] unless [their] son's involved. So the dad is spending time with the boy, and he is spending time with his wife, who he resents and won't touch, for the sake of their son. The kid's best chance may very well be away from the morons, but in no way do I think that should be the first possibility. Raising the boy in a friendly, stable home is priority one. And the parents should get their asses to counseling this frickin' minute.
NumberSix at January 29, 2010 3:19 PM
Well, NumberSix, I have no argument with anything you said. Sounds like good advice to me.
Maybe the root of hubkins' problem is that he's too busy blaming her for everything and he needs to accept the fact that he's partially to blame for the situation that's befallen him. She didn't force him to have sex without protection, which he should have been using if only to protect himself from STDs, and he was sleeping with a married woman. While neither one of us thinks she's a wonderful human being, he's not exactly a nominee for sainthood himself.
Patrick at January 29, 2010 4:11 PM
Amen to all of that, Patrick. His passive-aggressive "you got me into this" blame-shifting and resentment gets on my wick, too. He reminds me of the husbands on the sitcoms I hate. You know, the ones who complain about their wives and warn their single friends to never get married. Why the hell did you get marries in the first place, Sparky? Mommy and Daddy both need a good (metaphorical) smack across the kisser. Or maybe a real one if it would knock some sense into them.
NumberSix at January 29, 2010 5:18 PM
Look, it's a crap situation. I just reread LWs letter, and something leapt out at me that I missed before.
I know he isn't cheating (I always know where he is). I told him he was setting me up for an affair. He said, "Do what you need to do." I started sleeping with my ex-husband
Ummm, she keeps him on a leash but it's ok for her to sleep around? Reading between the lines, she really still wants him but he's not interested. Ok, that happens. And if they were shacked up at college that would be it and they go their separate ways, but as Amy rightly points out their right to do that ended the day they forgot the condom (or she pretended to be on birth control, whichever).
But a bit of out of the box thinking here please? Sit down with him and work out some ground rules for extra-marital affairs, not in front of the kid, etc, whatever it takes to maintain a happy household. When one partner is still in love with the other that won't work of course, just breeds more resentment - but in this case he obviously doesn't care and she's happy to move on anyway, so - where's the problem?
Ltw at January 30, 2010 1:21 AM
Oh Amy, I am so disappointed having read your response. Telling this woman that she must stay in a marriage that lacks the very foundation of a successful relationship, respect, is really ill-guided. People who stay in loveless and more importantly respectless marriages for the sake of the kids are doing those very same kids a grave disservice. This child may very well grow up and believe that marriage looks like a man and a woman who never communicate, never provide emotional or physical support and never laugh or enjoy each others time outside of the children and most certainly don't carry respect for one another. Those kids often grow up and they repeat the same cycle, as that is what they were taught, just like children who grow up in abusive homes often repeat the cycle.
Not to mention, you cannot hang the hinges of your marriage on the shoulders of a child, you shouldn't decide to get married, or stay married because of your children...children cannot be responsible for marriages and when you get married and stay married solely for them, that is exactly what you are doing.
A good marriage is not determined by how good a parent you are, it is determined by how good a partner you are, and right now neither of these parties are a good partner. Staying married simply because they have a child together is a personal decision, but it has just as many psychological effects as getting a divorce.
Divorce doesn't always have to be bad either, if they are truly as good and loving parents as she claims, they will work together creating a 50/50 joint custody and visitation schedule, sharing the financial costs of daycare and medical expenses and forgoing traditional child support and they will be friendly enough to attend events together and be there for their son. They will also be flexible enough to listen to their son's needs and work with him to cope with seperations...not force him to grow up being used as "glue" in an unwanted marriage.
Sarah at January 30, 2010 11:17 PM
Sarah, did you actually read Amy's response? She did not advise the LW to stay in the marriage as-is.
Unless your home life is so ugly that your kid would be better off if you divorced, you and Frosty need to "do what you need to do" to make this work the best you can.
Give him props for what a great dad he's been, and ask him to team up with you to do right by your kid. This isn't about getting him from "you're in my space" to "you're the light of my life," but getting him to a couples therapist so you can figure out how to be a couple of loving (or at least friendly) roommates raising a kid together.
These are direct quotes from Amy's response. No good advice columnist (of which there are few, and Amy is one) would advise this woman to continue in a marriage where one partner is emotionally crippled and needy, and the other is resentful and passive-aggressive. Amy told her to work on her marriage to provide a stable (if not exactly lovey-dovey) home for her son until he is living on his own. As she tells all the parents like this who have so-so marriages/relationships of their own making. Amy has also posted research (which she would probably direct you to if asked) about how divorce, even an amicable one, is more disruptive to the children than staying together even though things aren't all roses and cooing doves. Putting the children first even if it's hard is the sign of a good parent.
NumberSix at January 30, 2010 11:49 PM
Not to mention the fact that, if the LW does leave the marriage, what happens to her son? You say that her getting out of the marriage would be better for her son, but she is the one who needs slapping around to be a better parent. Hubby can't be Father of the Year, either, with the way he's treating Mommy, but at least he's trying. In your scenario where the part amicably and share custody equally, they are not working on their relationship or their parenting skills. Deciding how to share custody of a child that only one of them seems semi-equipped to handle seems more than a bit backwards.
NumberSix at January 30, 2010 11:53 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/knit-booty-call.html#comment-1692205">comment from NumberSixThank you so much, NumberSix, for covering that. I'm tired to the bone, and need to go to bed.
Amy Alkon at January 30, 2010 11:53 PM
Get some sleep, Amy. Let us insomniacs handle it (I'm on Central Time).
NumberSix at January 30, 2010 11:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/knit-booty-call.html#comment-1692208">comment from NumberSixAww, thanks. And as long as you're offering...Sarah's now at work over here:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/27/we_get_mail_1.html
Going to take you up on that and go to bed.
Amy Alkon at January 30, 2010 11:57 PM
I responded at the other item, you are right, it's a pain to be repetitive. I hope none of you find yourself in a marriage where you are being alienated from your spouse, the very person who promised in front of your friends and God that they would love and protect you and do right by you forever. What a conflict for this letter writer.
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/01/27/we_get_mail_1.html
Sarah at January 31, 2010 10:39 AM
You know, Dear Abby would have recommended hubby gets to a doctor, I mean a real doctor, not a shrink.
Men have sex drives! I want sex every day, and I think I am older than hubby in this case. It might be his testosterone is low, as in gone.
If that doesn't work, I vote the wife has red-hot affairs where she can, discreetly until the boy is 18, and then life starts anew.
Actually, LW is living a type of fantasy, if she would only take advantage of it. She has hubbie and son, and yet has carte blanche to sleep with every exciting and handsome guy she sees! She should be hitting up the gym.
She can make the most of the next 5-10 years (she better start soon, while she is still attractive), and then look back on it someday, in the old-age home, as some of the most exciting years of her life.
If you get a lemon, then make lemonade.
BOTU at January 31, 2010 12:12 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/knit-booty-call.html#comment-1692308">comment from BOTUThis would be a good time for you to depart these parts and find Dear Abby's blog. You don't want to fuck a woman you resent the hell out of, number one, and the guy won't have a conversation with her. So, bringing up need for a doctor visit isn't something that's going to happen in the real world.
Amy Alkon at January 31, 2010 12:25 PM
I hope that doesn't happen, either, Sarah. What does that have to do with what we were discussing? Your advice seems to be for these people to hop in the Wayback Machine and change the nature of their relationships. They can look at each other and say, as you seem to want, "What we should have done was always treat each other with respect and been clear about what we wanted and expected out of each other, so that when we decided we needed to divorce, it would be easy-peasy to divide everything up and have a perfectly equal custody agreement for little Billy Bubba." To me, this is like saying to the gun-toting intruder who is burgling you house and has just found you hiding in the closet, "You know, what I should have done was call 911 and run to the neighbors instead of running upstairs and hiding here for you to find me." It won't change the reality of the situation. You can work only with what you have.
NumberSix at January 31, 2010 12:45 PM
I am just giving another perspective based on my experience and I am allowing the LW to know that there are lots of healthy well balanced children of divorce out there and there are lots of messed up and delisional children of marriages out there. You can navigate situations in life and you can use them to learn and grow and not as a crutch. There are always repercussions to any choice or action in life. You just have to make the best decision for you and your family and be accountable for that decision, stand behind it. Say i made the best decision I knew how or based on the information I had in that moment. You can try to argue that life would be better or worse had your parents stayed together or been divorced, but you don't really know. All you know is it would have been different. Different doesn't mean better or worse, it means different.
Sarah at January 31, 2010 12:59 PM
I find it amusing that you are arguing with me using the logic I presented you.
NumberSix at January 31, 2010 1:02 PM
I am not denying that there are well-balanced children of divorce out there. But, is that the first, best option here? How can you argue that it would not be better to try to work on their relationship first? I had this same conversation with Patrick earlier in the thread. I suggest you scroll up a bit and read.
NumberSix at January 31, 2010 1:05 PM
"and the guy won't have a conversation with her. So, bringing up need for a doctor visit isn't something that's going to happen in the real world." - Amy Alkon
Hmmm...so how do you suppose marriage counseling is going to fair?
(PS I do agree that it isn't his sex drive but rather his resentment that is his ailment in this situation.)
6-
I completely agree that marriage counseling, when possible, should always be a first step. But when that isn't possible I simply hope LW understands that no matter what she chooses, she has options and what seems appeasing for one person (stay, be roommates and spend 13 years being ignored unless your kid is present) is not her only option, and in fact other people in her situation have chosen the opposite and with the help of maturity have been successful in still being a great parent.
Thanks for all the debate on the topic. I wish you all well. It's been fun and intriguing and has given me great conversations with my pals both in and out of the psychology field.
Sarah at January 31, 2010 1:29 PM
Again, Sarah, you have misunderstood my point. Being roommates while being ignored is not what I have been saying. That, obviously would be miserable. What I mean, if I have not been clear, is that the parents should make the conscious effort to be friendly to each other, even when the kid is not there. Ignoring or sniping at the other when they are alone would surely bleed over to when they were not alone, and you have the same situation you do now. Good parenting requires you to sacrifice your need to snark at your partner if it would be detrimental to your child.
And, as I said before, I do realize that not all divorces produce unbalanced children. This is the difference in what one of my sociology professors are the terms "will always" and "tend to." Amy has research that says children of divorced parents tend to do worse across the board (the board of school, propensity for taking drugs and participating in crime, ability to form meaningful relationships, to name a few). Will they always? No, absolutely not. But that seems too big a risk to take unless you have exhausted the other options you say the LW has.
And that maturity you speak of? Not a lot of that in the LW's marriage as it stands, so why would it magically appear when they divorce?
NumberSix at January 31, 2010 2:51 PM
Look, a healthy man who is never having sex....well hubby is not healthy, that's all. Trust me, I am a guy.
No sex, no love.
LW has got to get hubby to a doctor. If we accept LW description, he is never having sex. That is not healthy, and shows something wrong with his sex drive.
Trust me, this is a guy thing. We want sex all the time--not wanting sex ever is a sign of a really unhealthy person. Probably physically, and perhaps mentally.
Look, if a woman is good-looking and handy, I don't care if she is a Republican, I still will screw the hell out of her. Even if she is my wife and nags too much.
BOTU at January 31, 2010 6:47 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/01/knit-booty-call.html#comment-1692413">comment from BOTUHubby may or may not be having sex. He won't talk to her about anything that doesn't have to do with the kid. This especially includes his penis.
I like to give advice that works in the real world. If the guy is troubled that he's not having sex (if, indeed, this is the case), he'll do something about it. They apparently were having sex before he started resenting the fuck out of her. Maybe she only thinks she knows where he is at all times. We don't know, and we won't know, and neither will she.
Amy Alkon at January 31, 2010 8:01 PM
No BOTU,
It is not abnormal. You are simply saying that every single guy is exactly the same. Many are NOT all about the sex.
>>We want sex all the time
While we may be ready at an instants notice, this is complete bullshit. If you want it all the time, then you are a slave to sex, and you are likely the one who needs to see a doctor.
If he is resentful of her, he is NOT going to want to have sex with her. In this case, I actually agree that a divorce is probably a better answer. I just hope, if that is the ultimate decision, that both parents are still actively involved with the boy (and he doesn't become a pawn between the parents).
E. Steven Berkimer at February 1, 2010 1:01 PM
In fact, men are slaves to sex, but it does get better with age.
I mean, look at the complete 360-degree doo-doo we put up with to have sex with a good-looking young woman.
Intelligent Design my ass.
BOTU at February 2, 2010 9:46 AM
Hello. And Bye.
IrrenryMommes at March 3, 2011 10:07 AM
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