Curtain Maul
I'm a theater performer, and there's a tendency among theater people that disturbs me: dreadful over-the-top flirting. I'm a portly, bearded guy pushing 40. At my last show, I was sitting in a seat minding my own business when a young woman in the cast I barely knew came and sat on my lap. I'm straight, so naturally, I enjoyed this. But, when I responded by putting my hand on her knee, she jumped up as if she'd been electrocuted and ignored me for the rest of the show's run. Humiliating. To pre-empt that humiliation, is there a polite time, perhaps when rehearsals begin, to announce "I'm not your daddy or Santa Claus, and I'm not gay, so if any of you young ladies come sit on my lap, you might find my hand on your knee. Comport yourselves accordingly."
--Miscast
"Dear Advice Goddess,
I'm so troubled. Hot young women sit on my lap."
Well, definitely start wearing pants fitted with those spikes they use to keep pigeons off liquor store signs, or at least sew golf cleats to the front of your jeans. Or, if this sounds like a lot of bother, you could just consider yourself mildly lucky, and leave it at that.
In your defense, it's not like you're some chronic knee molester, constantly dropping to all fours in rehearsals -- all the better to grope the ingenue's patella. You were apparently supposed to consider this a sort of static lap dance. (You don't get to touch the stripper when you're getting a lap dance -- at least not without tossing her a couple extra hundreds.) Of course, in a strip club, the rules are clear. In drama group, it's harder to differentiate between "I want you" lap-sits and look-but-don't-touch "I want you to pay homage to hot little me." There are many ways to communicate, but women who wish to avoid being misunderstood will find the spoken and written word far more effective than the silent language of butt cheeks on a man's thigh.
Let's be honest: What disturbs you isn't the "dreadful over-the-top flirting," but the dreadful leaping up from your lap as if electrocuted. The answer isn't making pre-emptive announcements -- not unless you're in some race to humiliate yourself before other people can get to it. You just need to act like the kind of guy who'd be dangerous for a girl to tease. For a role model, I suggest the one-eyed, boozing, chain-smoking, gourmet food-hoovering poet/novelist Jim Harrison, who looks and sounds like the product of drunk sex between a pirate and a grizzly. At 73, with his mere presence, he makes young player-dudes seem to have all the sexual mojo of Julie Andrews. (As a woman, you get the sense that if you get too close, he just might grab you with one of his big paws, pop a truffle on you, and wash you down with a swig of Spanish wine.)
In other words, your problem isn't that you've been humiliated, but that you're acting humiliated, letting this girliepoo set the tone. Instead of hanging your head and hoping to evaporate, refuse to be shunned by teasing the tease: maybe pointing to your knee and asking if she'd like another ride on her new pony, or grinning and sticking out your hand, fingers wriggling, as if it might get loose and make another run for her leg. This should not only give you your superpowers back, but teach her an important lesson: If you're over 12, and you plop down on a man's lap, you aren't going to be asked what you want for Christmas.
This should not only give you your superpowers back, but teach her an important lesson: If you're over 12, and you plop down on a man's lap, you aren't going to be asked what you want for Christmas.
Ha! Nice one Amy. And a lesson for guys - just because they jump on your lap, they're not that into you. Don't be fooled into believing they really want you and you won't be humiliated.
But - I wonder if the "hand on the knee" is a slight shading of the truth, and especially where the other hand was. The old "arm round your waist or maybe a bit higher" trick perhaps?
But on balance - if the depiction of the situation is accurate, for once it's actually fair to say that if she got felt up, she was asking for it. As un-PC as that might be.
Ltw at April 27, 2010 7:31 PM
I have to say that for her to just drop down in his lap like that he is not wrong for responding with a hand on her knee. And chances are she is getting some sick sense of joy out him feeling humiliated (contrary to what some say some women can be cruel like that). Once he's done licking his wounds he should get his mind right and his head up and keep on keeping on.
Danny at April 27, 2010 8:18 PM
What disturbs you isn't the "dreadful over-the-top flirting," but the dreadful leaping up from your lap as if electrocuted.
Exactly. It's not usually deemed "dreadful" when both people enjoy it. I would like to ask this guy if he has noticed others acting the way this young woman did. He mentions a "tendency" but then gives only this extreme example. I spent a lot of time with theater people in high school, and I can confirm that there does tend to be harmless flirting among cast and crew, probably as there is among any group of males and females that spends so much time together. But this woman's flirting wasn't of the harmless, fun type. It was, as Amy points out, of the "aren't I great, you may now commence with the worship" type. It is reasonable to assume that she expected that he was gay, but to plop yourself down in the lap of anyone you hardly know is to invite some sort of negative reaction, regardless of how adorable you think you are. I'm with Ltw and Danny in that it was her fault if she got a reaction she didn't like.
To the LW: If this happens with someone else, I bet if you flirt back, one of two things will happen. You'll be included in the harmless back-and-forth flirting or she'll be pissed that you weren't properly humiliated and leave you alone. Either way, you come off better.
NumberSix at April 27, 2010 8:31 PM
I think older - not that old I know but in context - men need to remember that young women are impulsive and can change their mind in a heartbeat (so do young men for that matter). So beware of Greeks bearing gifts and don't get too excited too quickly. And don't think every advance is a promise.
NumberSix, I used to do lighting and sound at high school theatre productions and have seen much the same behaviour. It became a bit uncomfortable when I was coming back to help after leaving school! I stayed way out of it. Although any group of males and females exhibits this - there is definitely something different about theatre, people in that area seem to be much more ready to flirt, and more likely to scream if they decided someone had crossed the (of course undefined, why didn't you read my mind) line.
Ltw at April 27, 2010 9:34 PM
I agree with Amy but I worry that making that offer will give him the rep of 'skeevy old guy' or that this stupid girl will start some sexual harassment BS (nevermind that dopey sat in his lap first, people seem to ignore the 'do not tease the animals' sign way too often).
If I was an older man and some p.y.t sat in my lap uninvited I'd probably just tell her she might as well get up because I'm not Santa and I don't carry singles.
Lia at April 28, 2010 12:10 AM
I agree with all of the above. I was watching the kids in the high school drama club a couple of weeks ago, daughter #1 was playing piano for their production, and both sexes were playing the flirty-oh-stay-away-from-me! game. Amongst the high school crowd, that's to be expected, but once you hit a certain age, it's time to leave the high school shenanigans there. LW should just smile and wave. He's giving that pty control she hasn't earned and doesn't deserve.
Flynne at April 28, 2010 5:13 AM
(pty = pyt. But you knew that.)
Flynne at April 28, 2010 5:14 AM
Back when I did a lot of a acting in my college and my early twenties there was definitely a flirty/sexually charged atmosphere. Wandering back and forth between men's and women's dressing rooms, dropping into laps and draping yourself over each other was the norm. Usually it didn't mean anything further.
I get what this guy means.
But if she decides to play, she has to learn how to send the right signals and be deft when she gets it wrong.
AntoniaB at April 28, 2010 5:32 AM
The things one learns too late in life...
MarkD at April 28, 2010 6:35 AM
I also wonder if the young gals perceive the older guys as fairly harmless, and thus safer to flirt with. I find I get a lot more attention from the young gals now than I ever did when I was in my 20s (more's the pity, I know). A female coworker my age also told me that I come off as a bit avuncular, so I wonder if LW might give the same impression.
But nobody's plopped down on my lap yet, which is okay with me. I'm not sure what I'd do, anyway. "Pardon me, dear, but you're aggravating my sciatica. It really is hurting quite a bit!"
old rpm daddy at April 28, 2010 7:00 AM
I agree that the girl is a tease, but Amy, your advice is going to get the guy branded a skeezy perv that people don't even want to be friends with. Wiggling his fingers at her? Asking her to go for another ride on his new pony? From an old man? Um... ew. It's NOT going to make people think he is sexy. It's going to make them think he is gross. Sorry, geezers, that's the way it is.
Theatre people are touchy feely. They drape themselves over each other, hug, sit on laps... and it isn't necessarily sexual. That's just how it is. You don't like it, find another hobby.
NicoleK at April 28, 2010 7:09 AM
Don't touch people uninvited.
Goes both ways, sitter and sittee.
Spartee at April 28, 2010 7:10 AM
Theatre people are touchy feely. They drape themselves over each other, hug, sit on laps... and it isn't necessarily sexual. That's just how it is. You don't like it, find another hobby.
I'm not being snarky here, NicoleK, but why should "theatre people" get a pass when it comes to "Don't touch people uninvited."? Disrespecting other peoples' boundaries isn't being "touchy feely". It's imposing themselves on someone else without permission.
Flynne at April 28, 2010 7:22 AM
Shit, I work in theatre professionally and this type of "flirting" happens all. the. time.
There is no time for modesty when you have a quick costume change or when the cast is so big that the dressing rooms end up becoming co ed to make people less like sardines. Sitting on each others laps would not even raise a brow. Hell, I just had my boobs adjusted by a straight male techie last night when he was helping me get into my costume for a quick change. No one even blinked at us and neither of us was even slightly embarrassed about it. Some of us in the theatre community down here are actually very good friends. We touch each other, adjust each other, sit on each other, drape, talk dirty, etc… When you spend that much time together, and expose yourself so emotionally in rehearsals, bonds naturally form and you become comfortable with each other. Nudity is also just a part of theatre. I have been half naked backstage more times that I can count for quick costume changes. We just don't make it anything other than what it is. But, we are professionals. We know where the line is and we respect it. We don't take gestures like that to mean anything than they are. If I sit on a guys lap (gay or straight) , my reasoning is likely nothing other than I had no where else to sit at the moment and his lap looked comfortable. If he put his hand on my knee, it's because I am sitting on his lap. Nothing more.
The problem I see with most young actresses today is that they expect to be spoon fed praise and think that all the men (gay or straight) should be ogling them. It is usually with the ones that have been doing community theatre for so long, or the fresh outta high school kids that are the problem. They haven't had the experience they need yet to understand the rules of the game. They flirt, they make suggestive comments, they invade personal space, and then, when one does reciprocate, even innocently, they get offended. Especially if the reciprocator is an older straight man. This girl was clearly seeking the attention in my opinion. And she got it when she jumped up. I would be willing to bet that if you had been the cute young male lead LW, she would have taken that same gesture as a sign that he likes her and found herself heartbroken when he rejected her real life advances. I also bet she is talking shit about the creepy old man in the cast.
I suggest next time you simply tell her to get off your lap LW. Don’t even give her the opportunity to humiliate you again. Or...do what Amy suggested. That would be pretty well received by us in our group and the problem girl would be put in her place in a hot second.
Sabrina at April 28, 2010 7:39 AM
Um... ew. It's NOT going to make people think he is sexy. It's going to make them think he is gross.
The point isn't to appear sexy; it's to appear not humiliated.
Amy Alkon at April 28, 2010 7:51 AM
NicoleK : Theatre people are touchy feely. They drape themselves over each other, hug, sit on laps... and it isn't necessarily sexual.
Flynne : I'm not being snarky here, NicoleK, but why should "theatre people" get a pass when it comes to "Don't touch people uninvited."?
I agree with you Flynne, even if I would be fine with it - why should anyone put up with someone else's idea of what is appropriate? In any other public place uninvited attention like that would be harassment. I might have been unfair earlier to assume the LW had done more than just put his hand on her knee. But maybe it wasn't that - perhaps she just got an accidental but pointed lesson in her hip that not everyone regards the same things as non-sexual. Maybe that's why she jumped up so suddenly.
If the LW is reading, feel free to tell us about it - come on, I would have got an erection in that situation too and I'm not ashamed to admit it. If that's the case, she was probably more embarrassed than you.
Ltw at April 28, 2010 7:57 AM
"I also wonder if the young gals perceive the older guys as fairly harmless, and thus safer to flirt with."
Yes, I see this with my daughter's age group, as they often get quite familar with males they view as fatherly without having the slightest idea that a 40 yr old man is not too "old" to view this sexually. They're just clueless that older people still have sex and might be interested in them that way. For them, sitting on an older guy's lap is an affectionate, not flirtatious, gesture.
LW didn't say how old this woman was, but my guess is that she truly viewed him as harmless old man, like Santa...or possibly gay. Although that's surely frustrating and insulting to the LW, he should probably consider that before assuming to caress her knee.
lovelysoul at April 28, 2010 7:58 AM
Lovelysoul writes: ...LW didn't say how old this woman was, but my guess is that she truly viewed him as harmless old man, like Santa...or possibly gay. Although that's surely frustrating and insulting to the LW, he should probably consider that before assuming to caress her knee.
She should also consider this before she assumes it is safe to sit on his lap. I am guessing this girl is of teenage to young adult age. If she was a very young minor, she likely would not have even been allowed to hang out backstage until just before her cue. (Most theatres keep the kids with chaperones and are segregated) Teenage/young adult is certainly old enough to understand personal boundries. If she has ever been exposed to theatre before this, she should also be well aware of the backstage culture. If she can't handle it, she needs to either keep to herself in the dressing room or find another creative outlet.
Sabrina at April 28, 2010 8:31 AM
Sorry—but this LW isn't getting any sympathy from me. He and his problems sound rather flaky.
Razor at April 28, 2010 8:33 AM
But nobody's plopped down on my lap yet, which is okay with me. I'm not sure what I'd do, anyway. "Pardon me, dear, but you're aggravating my sciatica. It really is hurting quite a bit!"
How about, "Oof, put on a few pounds, have you?"
Steamer at April 28, 2010 8:39 AM
Part of this is the ability to pick up and act on obvious social cues. If this is a group where everyone is being jokey and touchy-feely and falling all over each other, then the LW needs to have enough social know-how to respond accordingly and not embarrass himself.
""Oof, put on a few pounds, have you?" is actually the perfect response. It's funny, not creepy.
Shannon at April 28, 2010 9:10 AM
The theatre world is a world of friendly touching. That's how it is, Flynne. If you want to go reform it, go for it and good luck.
It's not like they act like that in non-theatre situations.
The LW needs to learn the difference between social flirting and actual pick-up flirting. It is important in his social circle. If he can't figure it out, he needs to find another social circle where the norms are different.
I've been in many social circles, theatre and otherwise, where social flirting was the norm. I've also been in social circles where casual hook-ups were the norm... but there were still certain rules, and if you did things in a certain way you could still be labled as sketchy. For example, a guy got labled a sketch because he would always scoot down so he was pelvis-to-pelvis with whoever he was hugging... this was in a social circle that was very free hook-up wise, but he still got labeled a sketch because it was inappropriate.
These social rules change depending where you are, and it is up to you to learn them. I've certainly been burned by changes... hopping from a theatre circle where touching and social flirting was normal, to another where it wasn't and people thought I was hitting on them (I wasn't). I learned pretty fast. Depends on the group. The US isn't this monolithic culture where the social mores are homogenous across it.
Also, young people for the most part (in many, many social circles) don't view people in their 40s as potential sex partners. The people in their 40s can wish it was different all they want, but it's not going to change anytime soon. There will always be exceptions. The odds of you being it are low. Sorry.
NicoleK at April 28, 2010 9:12 AM
One of my dearest friends is a drama teacher at my daughter's high school. The girls are very comfortable calling him by his first name, hugging him, bantering back and forth on all types of subjects, and perhaps even sitting on his lap (although I haven't seen this).
Yes, young women should start understanding personal boundaries better, but there's also this sweet innocent affection that everyone is reluctant to destroy by labeling it sexual. It's important to realize that these girls were sitting on their parent's friend's laps less than a year, or perhaps only a few months before, as innocent young girls, but now, they're getting boobs and hips, which changes the dynamic for the males, but not necessarily for the girls. It often takes a while for them to register the sexual power they now have over males who were just cuddly "uncles" to them before.
Older and wiser men need to be able to properly assess these situations. At age 50, my friend has the good sense to realize that 15-18 yr old girls are NOT seriously flirting with him. They are not romantically interested in him, although they love his attention and approval.
He is obviously not too old to feel attracted to them, yet they probably have no idea of this. To them, 50 is OLD.
It seems to me that the LW's main problem is misreading these gestures as "flirting." If he cannot view younger women in a fatherly way, and feels uncomfortable with them sitting on his lap, he should just make an excuse, such as a bad knee.
He definitely shouldn't declare his sexual preference, lack of interest, or presumption that they are flirting with him, as that will only be more humiliating when he's wrong.
lovelysoul at April 28, 2010 9:12 AM
"I'm not your daddy or Santa Claus, and I'm not gay, so if any of you young ladies come sit on my lap, you might find my hand on your knee. Comport yourselves accordingly."
He shouldn't say this either. I still don't see why he believes that a woman sitting on his lap automatically gives him the right to put his hand on her knee...just because he's "not gay"?
Although it may send the wrong signal for a young woman to sit on his lap, it doesn't give him the right to grope her. That's almost how it sounds.
lovelysoul at April 28, 2010 9:33 AM
I am the LW and I appreciate this discussion mostly because it resembles my own inner monologue with regard to the subject. Glad to know I'm not alone!
@Razor: This was the kind of problem I thought would generate an amusing and perhaps informative discussion. I was right! My real problems, some of which would curl your hair, are beyond the scope of this forum.
To answer some of the questions put forth here:
I am 50+ (Amy was very generous in her assessment of my age based on a photo.)
The woman in question has got to be pushing 30 unless I'm totally missing the mark.
I'm quite familiar with the forced intimacy of theatrical groups, shared dressing spaces, etc.
I don't think I'll go the full Harrison, sorry @Amy :) but I do appreciate the amusing advice.
@Danny I like your response best -- thanks, bro. It's obvious I gave this little minx waaay too much power over my feelings.
LW at April 28, 2010 9:39 AM
He didn't grope her Lovelysoul, he put his hand on her knee. He didn't say that he also slid it up her thigh and started exchanging flirtatious dialogue with her. Implying that his intentions were anything other than friendly reciprocation is just ignorant. We just don't know that now do we? And even if they were, she sat on HIS LAP without HIS consent. His response was only natural in my opinion. Besides, where else what he going to put his hands? Was he supposed to hold them over his head until she decided she didn't want to sit there anymore?
A hand on a knee is not necessarily a sexual gesture either, just like the argument so many out forward for her sitting on his lap. A hand on a knee can be used as a friendly, comforting, or encouraging gesture, like a pat on the back. Santa Clause does it for the 1000's of little kids that sit on his lap every year.
Besides, he said she was a young woman. Not a girl. Not a child. Not a teen. A young woman. She clearly knows better than to sit in a strangers lap and certainly had to know what doing that implies in most of society. We also don't actually know what her actual intentions were in doing so. Young women know how to manipulate men. Her intentions very well could have been to flirt with the older man, but then when he reacted in like, she freaked out because she wasn't actually prepared for him to respond.
I don't say that he should be given a free pass, because ultimately, he is a mature adult who should have thought that one through a bit, but this young woman who sat on his lap should not be given a free pass either. Her behavior implies that she wanted male attention. Period. Well she certainly got it now didn't she...
Sabrina at April 28, 2010 10:05 AM
Well I repsonded and then saw the LW repsonse. LW, I think you are fine. Don't let her stress you out. Break a leg with whatever you are working on next.
Sabrina at April 28, 2010 10:12 AM
I'm with Sabrina on this one...
I smell victim-blaming here. Did this guy invite the woman to sit on his lap? That was totally inappropriate.
Imagine I went and sat on the lap of some woman. It would be called sexual harrassment, and the feminists would start all of their victim blaming for the poor helpless woman whose lap I sat on.
Just another perfect example of a female having no accountability for her actions. Sort of like the "Well, I went out and got drunk, then I went home with him, then I took my clothes off, then we had sex. But its rape because NOW I realize I did not want to have sex with him."
Bulls--t!!
The woman acted like she was interested in this guy, sat on his lap, and then acted like she had been harrassed when he actually called her on it.
The guy should file a sexual harrassment suit against this woman.
mike at April 28, 2010 10:22 AM
lovelysoul: He shouldn't say this either. I still don't see why he believes that a woman sitting on his lap automatically gives him the right to put his hand on her knee...just because he's "not gay"?
I have to disagree. She initiated the inappropriate conduct and has no right to cry foul if he responds accordingly. Notice, I said accordingly. His placing his hand on her knee hardly seems inappropriate considering her actions. Had he helped himself to her breasts, I might concede he's out of line.
If she doesn't wish to be treated like a cheap floozy, it would be in her best interests not to act like one.
Being indignant over his putting his hand on her knee, when she plops down on his lap uninvited, is borderline absurd.
If she showed up as his house, ripped her clothes off and plopped down in his bed, would it be inappropriate for him to assume she wants to get it on and respond accordingly? You think she'd be right to get up and scream "RAPE!"
Really, if the groping is so offensive, let me remind you who groped whom first. Amy's correct. This is totally inappropriate conduct for any girl over 12 years old, and she has no right being offended by his reasonable response.
Patrick at April 28, 2010 10:31 AM
Yes, the young woman is definitely insane for thinking a hand on the knee means he's a raging sex lunatic. A hand on the knee, IMO, is on the same level as lap-sitting, shoulder-draping, random massage giving, other theatre touchiness doing....
Are we sure she got up because of the knee, and not because she just happened to get up then? Because it does seem a bit odd.
NicoleK at April 28, 2010 11:15 AM
There seem to be quite a few women posting here that are going out of their way to point out to the (evidently perceived, swarms of) 40 something men that they are no longer viewed as potential sex partners by young 20 somethings.
Ummm . . . . duh.
Mostly.
Dears, nobody is arguing with you.
Why are you making this an issue? Trying to convince yourself that you are so hot that all the older guys are just aching to have you for a night?
Hum.
railmeat at April 28, 2010 11:43 AM
Obviously, there's nothing overtly sexual about a hand on the knee (though someone grasping or caressing my knee would be perceived differently from just resting a hand on it).
What I found odd was the way LW was kind of using this like a threat, "If you sit on my lap...be prepared...'cause I'm not gay and I'll touch your knee!" That just sounds creepy.
There are women who do this too - make announcements in advance which presume people are wanting to get it on with them, or warning them not to be. It always sounds kind of crazy, even if it's true.
I don't think there's really a sexual element here, as the drama world is obviously a lot like the art world - much more liberal than the norm - and, as NicoleK said, you have to understand the cues.
Heck, we posed naked for each other when I was in art school, but everyone understood that just because you dropped your clothes for a drawing session didn't mean you were going to sleep with someone...or everyone. I wouldn't have made an announcement like, "I'm taking off my clothes, now, but, even though I'm straight, don't think that means I'll sleep with you...comport yourself accordingly!" I'd have seemed totally foolish, as everyone already knew the boundaries.
lovelysoul at April 28, 2010 2:03 PM
The other thing is that so many men in drama ARE gay that I can see how it would be easy for a woman to assume this. She may have realized by the way he touched her kneee that she'd misinterpreted this, and maybe that's why she jumped up?
lovelysoul at April 28, 2010 2:13 PM
"And chances are she is getting some sick sense of joy out him feeling humiliated"
That is exactly what it is; she knows damn well she is teasing, she sets a 'trap' and looks for some guy to take the bait. She gets a little ego-boost from humiliating some guy and demonstrating how hot and unattainable she is. Yawn. It's about *herself*, not about you. She doesn't even know you, how can it be personal. I'm 33, yet I learned years ago that women like this exist (everywhere, not just in theatre) and are quite common, and part of growing up is not just learning that such women exist, but learning to be confident enough in yourself that you don't take it so personally and allow something so random and silly to "humiliate" you and ruin your whole evening. Like Amy says, suck it up and turn it around on her if you can. Even if it's eating you up inside, wear those emotions on the inside and pretend, until eventually it's no longer pretending and you realise that random strangers don't actually have the power anymore to ruin your evening with silly things like that. Only you can give people the power to humiliate yourself. Laugh it off, maintain your confidence and dignity, and ignore such people, they have nothing to offer you. Unless you feel horribly unattractive and inadequate and what's really bothering you is disappointment that she didn't actually want you, in which case you may have self-esteem issues. Putting your hand on her knee is a natural and valid response to such a situation, you didn't do anything wrong ... there's no real way to tell a woman's actual intentions in such a situation until it's too late. Google "shit test". She obviously really 'got to you'. Isn't it odd that a total stranger has so much power to 'get to you' ... it should suggest some reflection is in order.
Lobster at April 28, 2010 2:19 PM
I think the LW did the right thing. She made have fairly forward move and he countered it. He now knows where he stands with this lady.
I do something similar to this on dates. Many women are happy to let a guy into her orbit as a "friend" and let him waste away there pining for her. When I ask a girl out I make it fairly obvious that my interest is romantic. Shortly into the relationship I will kiss her. I give her plenty of chances to balk at my obvious advances. When she balks I know where we stand.
Dale at April 28, 2010 2:23 PM
"Also, young people for the most part (in many, many social circles) don't view people in their 40s as potential sex partners."
I think that's only "incidentally" true, for the most part --- I don't think it's the age so much as physical attraction and status. Young women will most certainly find a 40-year old male celebrity sexually attractive, for example. It's more the fact that most 40-somethings are out of shape and have ordinary status. Good-looking 40-somethings that keep themselves in good condition and project themselves confidently are most certainly perceived as potential sex partners by many (relatively i.e. non-adolescent) younger women.
"He shouldn't say this either. I still don't see why he believes that a woman sitting on his lap automatically gives him the right to put his hand on her knee"
Lol ... sorry, unless she was a teenager then of course it does. As LW says, she was pushing 30. In the years I used to go out a lot more, I had quite a few cases of (random) women initiating 'intimate contact' with me, even kissing me. Sometimes I reciprocated, sometimes not, and the responses were very varied. But it's all just fooling around. You realise the women have many different motives for doing things like that. Sometimes you can learn to 'read them' and pre-empt them, sometimes not. But to live your life like "oh I'm never going to respond and treat every woman who flirts with me suspiciously, I'm not even allowed to touch a knee", that's just silly, you'll end up missing the ones who actually do happen to be up for a bit of fun, and you'll just self-censor yourself continually as if you really think you're a creepy pervert ... that's stupid. Play it like a numbers game. Some will try humiliate you, just brush those off, the quicker the better. It's all just fooling around though, don't take it seriously. What I have realised though is women generally prefer it if your response indicates that your self-confidence is internal and isn't tied to their approval of you ... so Steamer's "Oof, put on a few pounds, have you?" is great. Women like to be playfully insulted. So first you play these silly little mental games ... and if you pass these first 'tests', then you might be lucky enough to be 'worthy' of putting a hand on her knee. An over-quick/eager positive response is perceived as 'weakness'. But don't worry, the average man's first thoughts in such a situation would be exactly as yours were ... naturally you're thinking 'OMG this hot thing likes me' ... and that's the mostly predictable response she wants and looks for in order to do the 'humiliation' step, as she looks for a 'stronger' man that is a challenge to her.
Yes it's all stupid. Yes people are extremely primitive animals. But hey, that's life. It used to irritate me, like "can't people rise above these incredibly primitive ape-like behaviours, can't they even recognize them" but as I get older I take it less seriously and just try play along and have fun.
Lobster at April 28, 2010 2:46 PM
I'd be more willing to regard her behavior as naive if it weren't for her reaction, which indicates that she did assume the interaction to have a sexual aspect. Otherwise it's just a hand on your knee.
Miko at April 28, 2010 3:05 PM
> Let's be honest: What disturbs you isn't the
> "dreadful over-the-top flirting," but the dreadful
> leaping up from your lap as if electrocuted.
I think you got this one wrong, Amy. There's not a whole lot more intimate (that won't get you arrested) than adults sitting in each other's laps. He called her bluff, and the transparency of the bluff was even greater than he'd (sensibly) assessed it to be. He's got the right to take offense.
Dim women think their sexual allure is, or ought to be, a precisely-calibrated, instantly-withdrawn force. It ain't.
They should choose their seats accordingly.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at April 28, 2010 4:25 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/04/curtain-maul.html#comment-1711580">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]Crid, I agree that he's got a right to take offense. I make it clear at the end that women who don't want hands on their knees shouldn't sit on men's laps. The question, however, is how to deal with being humiliated by a woman. Which is why I answered as I did -- and why this interested me.
Amy Alkon at April 28, 2010 4:34 PM
LW, glad you dropped in. She's late 20s or 30? That's totally different. I was assuming teens or early 20s. Don't feel at all bad about it, I'm sure she knew exactly what she was doing. My guess would be she is trying to prove she's still got it by baiting you. Once she got confirmation that was it.
But the question remains - if she hadn't jumped up would you be interested? There's nothing wrong with saying yes - you were just testing the waters perhaps and you had every reason to expect that was ok. There's a big difference between "help me with my costume" and "aren't I pretty what do you think?".
Lobster's advice makes sense - if you don't try, how will you ever know? If it doesn't work it shouldn't be humiliating - not for you anyway.
Ltw at April 28, 2010 6:43 PM
" I'm 33, yet I learned years ago that women like this exist (everywhere, not just in theatre) and are quite common, and part of growing up is not just learning that such women exist, but learning to be confident enough in yourself that you don't take it so personally and allow something so random and silly to "humiliate" you and ruin your whole evening."
I was about 15-16, I think, when I clued in that women flash those false "go" signals in an attempt to get an ego boost from the resulting male attention swivel. I saw it a few times directed at friends of mine and said to myself, "Now why in the world would she lead on a guy she obviously would have zero interest in...?"
Later, in college, a stray psychology class (groan) in my course of study discussed how people entering a "dating market" at adolescence or after a divorce would frequently "over signal" interest, in order to determine their worth/relative status in attracting potential mates.
Ah. Now I understood even better. And over the years, as people paired up and broke up, I saw the same antics again, this time by adults, not teens.
Spartee at April 28, 2010 7:03 PM
"If you're over 12, and you plop down on a man's lap, you aren't going to be asked what you want for Christmas."
That was awesome! Just the laugh I needed for this evening :-)
Ian at April 28, 2010 7:22 PM
Look, you can't expect a woman to be responsible for her actions like that. Just let her do whatever she wants and if you respond in a way she doesn't like, it's obviously your fault.
And as for the age gap issue:
"Johnson, 19, and Taylor-Wood, 43, have set tongues wagging with their whirlwind romance following his work in the movie Nowhere Boy, which she directed last year. They got engaged, are expecting a baby this summer and have started thinking about wedding plans, too."
ErikZ at April 28, 2010 9:39 PM
"If you're over 12, and you plop down on a man's lap, you aren't going to be asked what you want for Christmas."
Funny you should say that Amy. Last year at an annual party I've been going to for years I politely introduced myself to a beautiful young girl who seemed new (I would have guessed 16 to 18 maybe, and I help out with the serving etc so I see everyone and was surprised I didn't recognise her) only to find out I had met her several times before as a child - before her 13th birthday that is. You could have knocked me down with a feather, and certain harmless but inappropriate images had to be scrubbed from the inside of my eyeballs.
No, she did not sit on my lap, thank god. She flirted a bit and got very firmly but kindly rebuffed. Flattering but...she tried to sign her name on my face and I had to explain that I didn't want to be arrested. It was totally innocent - she was just being a child troublemaker along with her cousin like in previous years - but no longer appropriate. Not the same as a seven year old demanding a piggy-back ride.
You're absolutely right - any girl or woman over the age of 12 needs to know how their actions will be interpreted and be careful not to give the wrong idea. The problem is they have the body of a woman but have not grown up enough to understand its effect. Of course, men should be smart enough to avoid this sort of situation or do the right thing, but if they meet the wrong bloke...
Ltw at April 29, 2010 12:18 AM
"nd as for the age gap issue:
"Johnson, 19, and Taylor-Wood, 43, have set tongues wagging with their whirlwind romance following his work in the movie Nowhere Boy, which she directed last year. They got engaged, are expecting a baby this summer and have started thinking about wedding plans, too."
Anyone want to lay odds on whether there will be a five year anniversary?
Spartee at April 29, 2010 6:22 AM
I appreciate that Amy has continued her track record of responding to the writer's problem, not the other party's unstated problem. As she has pointed out before, this woman isn't the one writing in for help.
Good advice. Even if people think he's a little skeevy (which they probably won't), at least he wouldn't feel like a puppy who got whacked on the nose with a newspaper.
MonicaP at April 29, 2010 7:13 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/04/curtain-maul.html#comment-1711671">comment from MonicaPThanks, MonicaP.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2010 7:16 AM
"Interested," ltw? No, probably not. I think on reflection my humiliation extended in large part from the notion that I had imagined I was entering into a reciprocal flirting phase, just trying to play along, one of the fellas, and instead of a laff and a smile got -- that. Made me wonder for awhile if my flirt-o-meter was totally busted.
Anyway, thanks for all the fun and interesting discussion/flirt-o-meter calibration.
lw at April 29, 2010 7:18 AM
LW, how do the other fellas respond? Are they getting lap sittings too?
I suspect she assumed you were gay, so it would be "harmless" to sit on your lap, then realized you're straight. She's being stupid to act as if you did something wrong, but some people get mad at others when THEY are wrong.
My daughter just realized that one her drama friends isn't gay, although he "acted gay" and she's assumed he was for quite some time, but then she saw he has a girlfriend. She kind of liked him, and would've wanted to date him herself had she known. She didn't get mad about it, but I guess these kind of misunderstandings are more common in the drama world, where the default male sexuality tends to be gay rather than straight.
lovelysoul at April 29, 2010 8:09 AM
Monica, the way to respond to that (and it took me a long time to learn this) is to give off the "parent" vibe. If a young woman starts to do that sort of thing to me, I ask her what she has been doing today and which friends has she seen and what are her plans in the future. Never takes more than a couple of minutes to get rid of them.
Cousin Dave at April 29, 2010 11:05 AM
Hey Lobster,
phunctor at April 29, 2010 4:50 PM
I love the comment about Jim Harrison. I had the opportunity to meet him a couple of years ago. Older men, especially those creative wine collecting types make my black little heart revvv. That said, I was pretty sure that if I had sat on Jim's lap, I would have been missing for days; to later crawl out of the woods with blackberry bramble in my hair, speaking in tongues, a bit of prose written on my backside and nursing a red wine hangover for days. I just kissed his hairy bearman ear and ran.
sonja at April 30, 2010 9:20 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/04/curtain-maul.html#comment-1711936">comment from sonjaHah! Gregg and I (and Elmore and Elmore's son) had dinner with Harrison in Tucson, and that was pretty much my assessment.
Amy Alkon at April 30, 2010 9:36 AM
She wouldn't have to think he was gay. Maybe that's the case, but not necessarily. I've done a bit of acting in my day (college and little theater), and the backstage atmosphere was always filled with goofing around and flirtatious horseplay. Lots of backrubs, lots of lap-sitting, hugging, etc. And very little of it means anything -- most of us knew that. Sounds like the professional theater world is pretty similar.
Based on the LW facts and assuming his characterization of events is accurate, I'm guessing she was just joking around and being goofy (it was in a room full of people, I gather). And she assumed he'd know she was just joking around.
When LW responded the way he did, she thought "oh, crap, he doesn't know I'm just having fun. He thinks I'm hitting on him." She's in her 20's ("pushing 30") and doesn't handle it that well -- she decides the best way to let him know she wasn't hitting on him is to treat him like he has the plague. I've used that approach, although only when a guy really stepped over the line or didn't get a clue. From the LW's description, it didn't sound like he was stepping over the line or being persistent in his attentions, but she's a young'n. And if she's cute, she probably gets a lot of persistent attention and overreacted. I would have made a couple of light jokes to make it clear I wasn't hitting on him, and then restricted my flirting to dudes I really was interested in, are openly gay, or are so palsy-walsy with me that I can be sure they'll take it the way I meant it.
To be fair, though, I think LW is also overreacting to this situation. If he's really a theater performer, this cannot possibly be the first time he's run into the fun-loving back-stage atmosphere. And it's unlikely to be the first time in his 50-odd years a 20-something girl backed away from him. Let it go, dude. And next time, don't assume back-stage goofing that takes place in front of the whole cast is a serious flirtatious move. If you can't take the back-stage flirting, get out of the theater.
Personally, I think flirting is the breath of life.
Gail at April 30, 2010 10:18 AM
I have said that historically affluent people did not consider their children adequately educated until they had lived in another culture for several years, so they could understand how much of their culture is unique to their country.
This viewing of a 40+ man interested in a young woman as a pervert is not universal, neither in the history of the US, nor in the world.
In the lifetime of people still living today, unwed motherhood was horribly stigmatized. Not only the girl would be stigmatized, but her entire family might find themselves shunned.
So, when a girl as young as 13 to 15 started showing serious signs of sexual desire, it was considered appropriate to get her married as soon as possible. And, not to a snot-nosed teenage boy who couldn't support her.
In other cultures, such as where I live, men as old as I am are considered potential mates, even by young women, if they are not fat and beat up, but especially if they treat young women as people, not dummies.
It has been a major cultural shock to learn women as much as 50 years younger would be willing to jump into bed with me. So far I have resisted, because I am married, but I am not going to lie to you and say I have not been sorely tempted.
Because this is an alien thought to many of you, let me add this is not the gold-digger, opportunist thing NA women often assume such things are. "She only wants the stupid, loser for his money, or to get papers."
That was the first wave of female attention I got when I first moved here, and is so transparent and obvious it never tempted me at all.
This is the young women who know me, and like me as a person, and who obviously like how I treat them with respect as people. Something women are not used to here as a rule.
Also, let me make it clear I am not inundated with this sort of attention. Three times in around 2.5 years, but this is far more such attention than I got in my first 65 years of life. Thus, it has caused some serious cultural readjustment for me.
I tell men on MRA boards that Nice Guys, so reviled in the US, until a woman wants to marry long enough to cash the c/s and alimony checks, are HOT in Mexico. Even at my age.
irlandes at May 4, 2010 5:07 PM
oh, pul-eeez! LW, if your're really a theater ape, you should know by now that it's ALL AN ACT! What she does is an act and how you respond is an act. YOu can act like a hurt little boy or you can act like a challenged pirate - you decide!
Amy, I thought this was about relationships, not reality theater!
Elise at May 4, 2010 5:36 PM
Hmm... I haven't seen the answer to my one simple question: Was it a simple case of, "rest the hand on the knee" (as in, it's a handy place to rest my hand), or was it a case of "rest the hand on the knee and give it a squeeze"? If the former, then I would have gone to the woman, as soon as possible, with another person present (as a witness), and said, "Hey, look, I'm sorry. I didn't meant to make you think I was feeling you up or anything, I just rested my hand on your knee because it was there". If the latter, I would have gone to her with or without someone else there and said, "Hey, sorry I misread the signals like that, I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable".
After that, if she continued to behave like she did, I would just write her off in my head and not worry about it any further.
WayneB at May 5, 2010 10:57 AM
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