Needy Gonzales
This divorced dad I've been seeing for a month is really sweet, but he's pushing to go way too fast. Lately, he's been very intense. He came over after I specifically told him I wanted a night alone. He said he thought I needed him but was "too independent" to say so. He says he loves me (I can't say it back), and wants to change jobs and move in with me (he lives 30 miles away). I said I wasn't ready. He keeps trying to convince me that I'm just scared and once I "let go" and let him move in, I'll see that everything is as it should be. I'm 30, divorced, with two children; he's 32, recently divorced (four months ago, after his wife cheated). He hasn't met my parents, and I won't let him meet my kids until I'm sure about him. He says what others think shouldn't matter because "We're in love and happy, so it'll all come together."
--Unsettled
Well, here's a romance for the ages. "How'd you two lovebirds get together?" people will ask. "It's so completely sweet," you'll say. "He was standing on my porch waving a bunch of red flags."
This guy takes the "Dear Occupant" approach to love: Instead of "It had to be you," it had to be somebody, and you're standing right there and have yet to call the cops on him. He claims to love you, but you really have to know somebody to love them. Of course, "We're in love!" plays better with the ladies than "I'm lovable, right? After what that last woman did to me?" or "I'm terrified to be alone...got any spare drawers?"
As for his push to live with you one month in, you don't even meet somebody's parents at that point -- not unless you're 14 and need somebody with a license to drive you to the movies. Plus, an emotionally together dad doesn't expect a mother to announce, "Kids, I brought a strange man home from the bar. He's going to live with us now. I forget his name, so you can just call him Daddy II."
Oh, the way he makes you feel...smothered, pressured, and in need of lingerie with a seatbelt attachment. It's completely creepy how he's trying to sensitive-guy his way into your life, sounding protective of you when he's anything but. You e-mailed me that you've seen the guy maybe six times, yet he's named himself the world's foremost expert on your "real" feelings -- which align so perfectly with his needs: You really love him. You really want him to come over. In fact, you wish he'd arrived in a moving van on the first date. (Any guy can bring flowers -- it takes a really special guy to bring you his bedroom set and 36 boxes of his stuff.)
Love (when you actually have it) supposedly makes the world go round, but relationships run on the boring day-to-day stuff, and how you argue, and how annoyingly one of you chews. This isn't data that's readily available on the third date. What's more, a guy who immediately decides he loves you will find it near impossible to see if he actually does -- until it's too late. Tempting as it is to buy into a whirlwind romance, keep in mind that the focus is always on the romance, not the whirlwind -- the part that leaves your living room in little pieces in the next county under a herd of cows.
oh my. this one is painfully familiar. i dated a guy like this who, like your guy, thought i meant something else when i said i wanted a night to myself. later, when i had quit dating him, he proved to be a major boundary violator to the extent that i didn't even want to remain friends. ultimately i told him (and put in writing 3 times) "don't contact me in any way ever again." he thought that meant he should call me. when that didn't work, he thought he should email me. when that didn't work, he thought he should text me. when that didn't work, he thought he should come to my workplace. because he knew what "don't contact me" really meant. this manipulative, desperate kind of person is nothing but a nightmare.
amy, as always you've made me laugh outloud, but someone will please have to explain to me the lingerie with seatbelt attachments...?
trina at June 1, 2010 9:30 PM
Rebound, party of one? Rebound?
The guy's in a hurry to show his ex how what a catch he is. "Oh yeah? Well, look: I've found someone else too. So there!"
I think Unsettled needs to buy some pepper spray and visit the "Restraining Orders" section of LegalZoom.
Walter Moore at June 1, 2010 9:48 PM
You can tell this woman's in a bad situation when you don't even have to read entire sentences to get the gist of the relationship. A few examples:
He came over after I specifically...
He said he thought I needed him but was...
He keeps trying to convince me that I'm...
...and once I "let go" and let him...
And my personal favorite:
He says what others think shouldn't matter because...
Yikes. Those sentence fragments tell a dark story. It's a story of a man trying desperately to keep a woman from actually thinking, because he knows that if she starts that he may have to be alone with himself.
And as for the "what others think shouldn't matter" thing: this is the giant, undulating red flag that those other red flags throw a parade for. This is a variation on the gaslighting we talked about a while back. Separating you from your voices of reason will only work in his favor, exposing you to more of his pushiness while keeping you away from anyone who'll tell you it's unhealthy. Everyone needs a "cut the bullshit" friend. The ones that truly care about you will tell you what you already know: that this guy's a creepy loser and you need to get rid of him yesterday.
NumberSix at June 1, 2010 9:57 PM
Listen to Amy and get rid of this guy. He is all kinds of bad news. I'd bet it goes deeper than the emotional dependence. I'd bet he has some financial issues too.
Chris at June 2, 2010 4:53 AM
NumberSix's got it right. Run far, run fast, little rabbit! This is a serious nightmare waiting to happen. Have you gotten that little pang deep in your gut yet? You know, the one that tells you this is all wrong? Go with it. Cut off all communication ASAP. You won't be sorry.
Flynne at June 2, 2010 4:55 AM
"He says what others think shouldn't matter"- Apparently, you count as 'others' because he for damn sure isn't interested in what you think. Run. Run far. And change your number and look in to getting an attack dog.
Lia at June 2, 2010 5:02 AM
This guy's living in a fantasy world, and there won't be anything but trouble out of it. The fellow might be heartbroken by his divorce; that much is understandable. But he seems to have made the transition to creepy awfully quickly. I agree with everybody else: cut this guy loose, and right now.
old rpm daddy at June 2, 2010 5:34 AM
"And as for the "what others think shouldn't matter" thing: this is the giant, undulating red flag that those other red flags throw a parade for."
lol. You are very wise, NumberSix. Great post.
My daughter just got her first stalker/admirer yesterday. He showed up at our door shirtless with flowers and a card addressed to "beautiful goddess".
My daughter was at work, so I intercepted these gifts. Apparently, he's one of her friend's uncles, and they just met on Sunday. My daughter was like, "omg, thats so creepy, Mom! We have to move now!"
lovelysoul at June 2, 2010 5:54 AM
LW better be careful that she is not the one left "in little pieces in the next county under a herd of cows." That behavior is totally lacking in respect, and bordering on deranged.
Or possibly I was not informed of the change in the definition of no.
MarkD at June 2, 2010 6:54 AM
@Lovelysoul: "My daughter just got her first stalker/admirer yesterday."
Oh my goodness, Lovelysoul! What are you going to do if that creep comes back? Is somebody on hand to beat the hell out of him?
old rpm daddy at June 2, 2010 7:13 AM
Lovelysoul, I'm torn. Half of me is cracking up wondering what the guy thought when you answered the door, and the other half is very alarmed. A friend's uncle? That she just met?
This isn't some dumb summer comedy. In real life, it's just disturbing.
Pricklypear at June 2, 2010 7:25 AM
This guy could be needy squared, but he could also be an abuser. The push for instant attachment and the refusal to hear "no" are two of the screaming signs of an abuser on the hunt for a new victim.
Dump him, block his number, and refuse to have any discussions about "what went wrong." Do not give him another chance. Do not "let him down easily." Do not take phone calls, do not open the door to him, do not "try to be nice." CUT HIM OFF.
Dana at June 2, 2010 7:48 AM
Oh, and go to the library or bookstore today, and get a copy of The Gift of Fear, by Gavin De Becker. You'll see this guy in those pages, I guarantee you.
Dana at June 2, 2010 7:49 AM
If he shows up again, I'd lure him into the house, somewhere that he shouldn't be, like your daughter's bedroom. Then shoot him.
greg at June 2, 2010 7:54 AM
He was actually kind of cute (nice abs!). And, yeah, he was a bit suprised when I answered the door. Then, the ex happened to walk up. So, he had mother and father standing there appraising him skeptically, with his little pot of hand-picked (or stolen?) flowers. My ex shook his hand firmly and asked how old he was (mid 20s). I don't think he'll be back any time soon.
lovelysoul at June 2, 2010 7:55 AM
I think I've figured out the problem. It's that he's:
"recently divorced (four months ago, after his wife cheated)."
Nuff said. Recently divorced people all act crazy.
Pirate Jo at June 2, 2010 8:01 AM
"Kids, I brought a strange man home from the bar. He's going to live with us now. I forget his name, so you can just call him Daddy II."
Thanks for the morning LOL, Amy.
Claire at June 2, 2010 8:25 AM
*****This guy could be needy squared, but he could also be an abuser. The push for instant attachment and the refusal to hear "no" are two of the screaming signs of an abuser on the hunt for a new victim. *****
You beat me to it. This is exactly what I was thinking. And I second the De Becker book. It should be required reading.
Ann at June 2, 2010 8:27 AM
NumberSix put it eloquently. Whatever this guy's problem is, it isn't your job to fix it. Mister Four Months does not need to be dating right now; he needs to be taking care of his kids, doing some introspection, and getting his own act together. Go find a guy who isn't a project.
Cousin Dave at June 2, 2010 9:55 AM
I third the Gavin de Becker recommendation. This guy is an abuser in boyfriend clothing. Get the book, read the checklist, and do what I should have done with my ex--get the hell out before you have a true stalker situation.
The longer you keep him in your life, the longer it's going to take you to get rid of him. It's going to be hard enough to get him to accept your "no" now that he's already dismissing it.
Peggy C at June 2, 2010 9:57 AM
On some level, I actually sympathize with the guy. When my wife cheated on me and then split, I felt sort of desperate to fill the bed with someone, and it could have been almost anyone at the time. I had an empty house, an empty bed, and I was lonely, especially after becoming accustomed over nine years to having someone around all the time.
Fortunately, I got my head on straight before I did anything stupid. I slept with a few women, but they were mainly one-nighters. And I never went after women who told me no, or who said they needed time to themselves.
The very pushy behavior is obviously out of line. He may or may not be dangerously controlling, though. Maybe he's been out of the dating pool long enough that he's forgotten how to date appropriately. Maybe his ex-wife preferred a take-charge-of-everything kind of guy, and that's all he knows. Maybe he's lonely, like I was, and wants constant contact with someone. Still, his behavior is highly inappropriate, and is made even more bizarre by the short time they've been dating. LW should certainly be hearing alarm bells and seeing red flags waving with a fury.
I suspect the guy will eventually get his head on straight, but he really needs to do some serious thinking and take some time off from dating. He's only been divorced four lousy months. LW needs to break it off with this guy. His head's just not in the right place, and he doesn't need to be dating anyone.
MikeInRealLife at June 2, 2010 10:10 AM
"amy, as always you've made me laugh outloud, but someone will please have to explain to me the lingerie with seatbelt attachments...? "
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Chastity-Belt-Myth-Making-Process/dp/1403975582
Chang at June 2, 2010 10:10 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/06/needy-gonzales.html#comment-1720348">comment from ChangJust something I made up, Chan, in relation to his desire to restrain her.
Amy Alkon at June 2, 2010 10:13 AM
My guess: he used the same "gaslighting" type techniques on the last gal which is why she cheated -- she didn't like being told what to think all the time & jumped at the chance of being with someone who respected her. He doesn't know another way to deal with people and feels even more justified at strengthening his technique with the new gal.
She should cut him off now, immediately, & never look back. "This isn't working for me. I'd prefer we don't see each other anymore. Please don't call, email, text or stop by again. Thanks for understanding."
suzy brown at June 2, 2010 11:00 AM
Excellent advice from everyone here. I'm just wondering why LW's own internal alarm didn't go off and why she needs to ask for advice on this matter. I would think that this level of creepy would have prompted her to cut ties with the guy long before she felt compelled to write to Amy.
Marina at June 2, 2010 11:08 AM
Oh my God, I hate people like this. They know your TRUE feelings. The reason you don't feel the way they think you should is because you're broken or defective, somehow, and if only you'd open yourself up to love (their love, naturally), you'd be all healed and crap. Gag me with a crowbar.
LW, a huge red flag is that he is completely denying your feelings and telling you how you SHOULD feel. If it looks like an asshole and walks like an asshole...
MonicaP at June 2, 2010 11:46 AM
I don't think that we need to jump to the conclusion that he's an abusive psycho. The behavior he's demonstrating isn't so uncommon. But he's obviously out of his mind and can't recognize that he's in the throws of something.
Here's the thing, if I were in his shoes and actually did meet another woman who I fell head over heals for - If anything, I'd slow down so that I didn't screw things up. This guy either doesn't have the sense to realize what he's doing, or doesn't care. He's going to ruin what could be a good thing because he's so desperate to be with someone.
greg at June 2, 2010 1:07 PM
I felt sort of desperate to fill the bed with someone, and it could have been almost anyone at the time.
You make a good point, Mike. I think desperate is the key idea here. This guy doesn't necessarily have evil intent, but he is coming off as really pushy and creepy. I almost posted that his behavior was the type exhibited by abusers, but I reread the letter and decided there wasn't enough there to warrant that. He could just be digging in his heels because he found someone and doesn't want to let go. There's a good chance, I think, that his behavior could be mostly unconscious. He may not even realize he's being as intense and creepy as he is. And he sounds like he's in the space where, when someone points out his bad behavior, he gets even more adamant.
You're almost certainly right about the "almost anyone" part. He found someone who seemed to like him and was also aboard the S.S. Divorced, so he probably assumed she would be as desperate for a relationship as he was. Plus, she has kids, which is a bonus for a man looking for a desperate woman. In light of your relaying your experience, Mike, I will amend my earlier advice to the LW: definitely cut this guy loose, but try to explain to him why. Maybe hearing that he was just wanting someone will wake him up and he'll have better luck in the future.
NumberSix at June 2, 2010 3:24 PM
I don't know, NumberSix. I think you were spot on with your first assessment. There's desperate and clueless, of course, but the part about him being completely dismissive of her feelings and need for space says to me that he's very controlling.
lovelysoul at June 2, 2010 3:33 PM
I do think he's controlling, but I don't see that it's the kind of mwa-ha-ha controlling of abusers. It very well could be, of course, but I don't think there's enough information here to make the distinction. I definitely think she should get rid of him, though. But Mike does have a point that desperation brings out all sorts of latent behaviors in people. I guess I just can't decide if the guy is deliberately trying to control her or if he's just digging in his heels at any sign of rejection.
This guy actually reminds me of those women who write in desperate to excuse any behavior from their boyfriends or husbands just so that they can hang on to the relationship. Not that this guy is excusing her behavior, but there is a correlation. He's like a woman who wants a man, any man, and doesn't want to waste the time already put into cultivating a relationship, even if it's a very short time.
If he'd been divorced for a long time, I might lean more toward the deliberate camp, but it's only been four months, so it could very well be that he's being extra desperate and clingy. Even if this is the case, though, the unconscious behaviors can lead to more conscious, thought-out behaviors, so she should definitely get rid of this one.
I guess my earlier point was that his behavior is inexcusable no matter what the context, but he might not have evil motives yet.
NumberSix at June 2, 2010 5:30 PM
Like you, after re-reading the letter, he doesn't sound quite that bad. I think it was Amy's response that I was going on. I'm not even sure she should break up with him, but she definitely needs to set some boundaries.
I mean, he thinks she needs him but is "too independent to say so"? What guy really believes a woman would say, "Don't come over tonight," as a way of asserting independence? And is he suggesting she's too independent in a bad way? That could be a sign of an abusive personality, but, you're right, it's inconclusive.
My ex was very intense like this too, and I remember my dad saying, "He never lets you breathe!". That should've been a warning sign - the giant, undulating red flag that all the other red flags throw a parade for. :)
lovelysoul at June 2, 2010 6:37 PM
What guy really believes a woman would say, "Don't come over tonight," as a way of asserting independence?
I'm guessing the kind of guy that takes that old chestnut "a woman means yes when she says no" literally. The kind of guy that thinks that he's supposed to be reading between the lines to know what she really wants, as opposed to what she says. The kind of guy who probably was burned by before by the kind of woman who expects a man to read her mind even when she says the opposite of what she means.
This is all conjecture on my part, but it would explain his behavior a bit better if he were rationalizing like this to some degree. He's so needy (Gonzales) that he can turn anything she says into a reason she doesn't really mean what she says. It's a damn good thing that the LW seems to have a good head on her shoulders. I don't think she's even really that confused about what to do here; she just needs someone outside her circle (with no stake in the outcome) to tell her what she already knows.
P.S. Glad you like my phrasing, lovelysoul. Think it'll catch on?
NumberSix at June 2, 2010 8:53 PM
It will with me. I'm going to use that one for sure.
LW does sound too smart and together for this, and yet, she wrote Amy. We haven't even touched on this, but the reason some guys come on so strong is probably because they've seen it actually work for other guys. How many relationships have dragged on for years because somebody doesn't know how to say, "Please go away!?"
And, as much as we women hate this kind of intensity, on one hand, there's often a fear that maybe nobody else will love us "this much" (enough to move all his crap into our house in under two weeks) ever again.
We see that kind of "love" and attention, and even though we may not want it, we're hesitant to throw it away.
I suspect that although the LW wishes he'd slow down, she also enjoys some of this attention. Of all the dating problems to have, "This guy loves me so much that he's obsessing over me" is much better than "No one's interested."
The hard part is understanding that that this attention isn't really love and has nothing to do with you personally. As Amy says, he'd be in love with anyone right now.
lovelysoul at June 3, 2010 4:16 AM
"This guy loves me so much that he's obsessing over me" is much better than "No one's interested."
That's a very good point lovelysoul. That's why it's so important to be comfortable in your own skin and happy with life as it is. You want to be content when no-one is interested. That way the red flags can parade elsewhere.
It's the feeling of voids in our lives that are insidious - it becomes a black hole pulling in all kinds of dross.
AntoniaB at June 3, 2010 7:38 AM
Guys like "Needy Gonzales" give fast-moving romances a bad name. My husband Vinnie and I fell in love quickly, BUT instead of pressuring each other into a relationship ASAP, we were smart enough to agree to take our time and actually get to know each other, warts and all, before building a life together. We waited a total of four years to get married, and it was worth it because we not only got to know and understand each other better, it also gave us time to find good jobs and squirrel away money for a decent place to live! :-) Unfortunately, for every story like ours, there are countless others like the "Needy Gonzales" LW, being pressured into a relationship while the red flags wave madly because ol' Needy just wants some woman, any woman, to validate himself.
DorianTB at June 3, 2010 7:43 AM
We see that kind of "love" and attention, and even though we may not want it, we're hesitant to throw it away.
That's something that I'd wondered, especially considering that she's 30 w/ two kids. I have a couple of friend in a similar situation and know that their dating lives have really sucked. Most guys near their age don't want to get involved with a woman with kids and the ones that do are often losers. One friend finally met a good guy, but he's 12 years older than her. So there's probably a willingness to put up with certain things that you wouldn't otherwise.
Janoodle at June 3, 2010 9:03 AM
Approximately 6 million humans exist on the earth
Wow. Blog comments from the Mesolithic period roxor my soxor.
Looks like something got through the spam software.
MonicaP at June 3, 2010 1:15 PM
Wow. Does he sparkle? Does he often look like he needs to puke? Is he called Edward?
Anne de Vries at June 4, 2010 4:23 AM
I don't know, I think I would interpret this behavior as disrespect, not love and attention. Any male or female friend acquaintance I had known for a small amount of time would be labelled as pushy and inappropriate if they did any of the things this man (if you can call him that) is doing. I like it when a person respects my need for space instead of deciding for himself how I must "really feel." I guess some people still think "no means yes." I would tell him where to go and make it clear that my house is not the place.
Jess at June 4, 2010 11:46 PM
I would never make it as an advice columnist. I would have answered this letter in 2 sentences. Kick that creepy/needy head case to the curb. Get a therapist to find out why you can’t see that he is a creepy/needy head case.
David H at June 5, 2010 12:59 PM
Having been married for 20 yrs to someone who behaved the same way, I say LOSE HIM. Enlist friends, family, law enforcement if necessary. Mine would have run if confronted by that kind of united front. But I didn't have the knowledge you are getting now, and believed it all. SAD.
Jen at June 6, 2010 7:24 PM
I read this an immediately thought of my ex bf. I was with him for nearly five years, because after awhile, I started to believe that I needed him. Let's say the first year was a real struggle for him. I put up a good fight. I didn't know how I felt about him, but I wanted some space to breathe, for some perspective and clarity, because I couldn't tell if I was even interested in him or not. He was suffocating me. He pushed even harder, coming over when I asked him not to, calling several times in a day, starting at pre-dawn on those rare nights when I'd actually sleep alone in my own place.
Why didn't I run? Because I'd been in a series of really rough relationships, and this guy made it seem like he was only this way with me because he "cared." Only he understood my true feelings. Soon I would understand my true feelings, too.
These are five years that I will never get back. When we broke up, I immediately saw a therapist, and she called what he did "gaslighting," as Amy also callls it above. Google the term if you don't know what it is.
Katie at June 7, 2010 8:59 AM
I have known a few people, although I have never been in relationships with anyone like this, who are similar to this guy. Essentially, the problem with people like this is that they cannot attract others into their lives, because they are invariably so charmless, obnoxious, boring, repellent, or worse. So the only way they can keep people around them and fulfill their own needs is to use tactics of deception, manipulation and control to keep people in their lives.
Nick S at June 8, 2010 6:17 AM
trina,
You dated him too? Mine was a college professor.
Suki at June 8, 2010 8:14 AM
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