Flight At The End Of The Tunnel
I sympathize with "On Hold," the guy sick of girls saying they wanted to see him again and then not returning his calls. Why do women think it's okay to ignore a guy -- the guy they let buy them dinner...the very same guy they agreed to see again when he walked them to their car?!
--Been There, Resented That
When a woman isn't returning your call, you want to hope for the best -- that it's because she died, is still in a coma, or was kidnapped by Bolivian terrorists while picking up a prescription at the drugstore.
But, you know -- we all know -- what no callback almost always means. And it isn't that women think it's okay to ignore a guy. It's just that lying and saying they'll see him again seems kinder and less awkward than being honest to his face. Sure, a woman could say something vaguely honest, like "I just don't think it's going to happen for us." But, the guy could end up pressing her for what's really on her mind: "You aren't as cute as I thought you'd be, and you chew like you're bad in bed." By the way, it isn't just women who'll say whatever it takes to close the door on a date. Men will pledge a sincere-sounding "I'll call you!" while thinking "You sucked the oxygen out of the room. Couldn't you hear the sound of my brain cells dying?"
Shaking your fist at the sky because rejection doesn't come in your preferred form won't make it any less a rejection; it'll just make you increasingly bitter, making you increasingly unattractive to women. Understand that not getting a promised callback is a common side-effect of modern dating -- especially if it was a first date, especially if it originated on the Internet. When you're just getting to know a woman, make dates cheap, short, and local -- drinks rather than dinner. Hope for the best, but until a woman's getting into your car to go on date two, think of "I'd love to see you again" as an announcement akin to "I'm going to go home and give birth to a litter of squirrels."
I just had a pretty funny experience like this, but more extreme.
Met a gal at a coffee shop. Exchanged numbers and did a little light texting, though she was always slow to respond. Eventually I suggested dinner. Radio silence for two days, then one night she texted to suggest coming over to keep me warm in the cold weather.
I played it cool, but long story short she did come over and we had crazy sex for like three hours. Next morning she leaves. I text her a day later suggesting we go out dancing. She responds that she's out of town for a couple days. I text her a couple more times over the next three days. Radio silence.
I'm not heartbroken, just a little perplexed. Part of me thinks she's gaming me, but I suspect the more likely explanation is she's just an impulsive pothead who doesnt know what she wants. (She was a little high & had been drinking the night she came over.)
D at January 18, 2011 9:39 PM
He's griping about the cost of dinner? Isn't it better to experience rejection then than a few years down the road when the cost will be his home, the car, 1350 a month and his two kids being programmed to think daddy's a bastard?
Patrick at January 18, 2011 10:49 PM
He could also look at it as his rejecting of her. The purpose of the first few dates is to look for deal-breakers. She's making it easy for him. Why would he even want to continue seeing such an obviously insincere (and somewhat cowardly) phony?
Patrick at January 18, 2011 10:55 PM
D, console yourself that at least she gave up the goods for one night - unlike the girls I met last Saturday that pretended interest long enough for me to buy a round of drinks then left - and I mean immediately, as in downing shot then goodbye. You seem to have the right attitude though. Make sure you have your own thoughts in order when she makes her next booty call :)
Ltw at January 19, 2011 1:16 AM
Why do women think it's okay to ignore a guy -- the guy they let buy them dinner...
Methinks LW needs to calm down. Like Miss Alkon said, "I'll call you" doesn't really mean all that much, and spending any sum of money on a first date doesn't entitle you to a second. Now go out and have some fun, and don't taking dating, or yourself, so seriously.
Old RPM Daddy at January 19, 2011 7:47 AM
Hehehee! Good one, Old RPM Daddy! You should be out there coaching these guys, you could make some coin at it! I can see it now: "Old RPM Daddy's Seminars for Guys Who Take Themselves Too Seriously - Get Back in the Game for Less!" "Common Sense - You've Got It, Learn How to Use It!"
(I'll take my usual 10%, thanks!)
o.O
Flynne at January 19, 2011 8:31 AM
Oh, Flynne, I guess you could say it's based on experience gained the hard way, doing everything I'm preaching against. In my younger years, I was one of those dour, soooooo serious types!
I'm guessing (based on next to no data) that the trouble with some people is that they think a relationship is just something that they really ought to have, because other people seem to have them. With that kind of thinking, finding a girlfriend or boyfriend turns into a crusade, rather than the pleasant experience it ought to be. Hence the resentment and anger when their noble plans are thwarted by failure to phone, ignored texts, and so forth.
Old RPM Daddy at January 19, 2011 9:46 AM
Not calling someone back is a clear signal. I was relieved when the guys I dated who weren't that into me just didn't call back after the first or second date. I wasn't emotionally invested in them at that point, and it was far easier than having to listen to a list of all the ways in which I did not meet their relationship needs.
If I wasn't that into a guy after the first few dates, I did the same. There's absolutely no point in introducing drama into things at that point in the "relationship."
MonicaP at January 19, 2011 9:52 AM
After many years of dating, I almost never turn a man down face-to-face anymore.
I used to. I have been yelled at, berated, called a whore & one jackass actually grabbed my arm hard enough to leave a bruise - all in public by the way.
I don't leave them hanging, but I do my rejecting over the phone now because you just don't know.
I'm curious though, since I am very accustomed to hearing a similar complaint from the women (We had a connection, why doesn't he caaaaaaaaall?).
How do you guys reject a 2nd date? Face-to-face? Phone call? Text?
hahahathud at January 19, 2011 10:27 AM
Hahahthud, makes a good point. It's kind of dangerous for a woman to reject a man she barely knows face-to-face. It was also my experience that some wouldn't take that well, no matter how nicely and honestly I did it. "I just don't think we'd be a good match..." can elicit all kinds of pressing and questioning...and sometimes, even worse, ugly behavior. "But, why?"
A smart woman doesn't get into that in a dark parking lot or in front of her door. So, that's why, LW. Like Amy said, you can't take it seriously. "Sure, I'd like to see you again" is akin to "I'm fine" when you ask someone how they are. You know it's often not true, but it's just the polite thing people say.
lovelysoul at January 19, 2011 3:26 PM
'the guy they let buy them dinner.' This is one of the reasons I always liked to pay for myself on first dates. Don't want anyone to get his panties in a wad the I owe him because somehow when he paid for the dinner he thinks he paid for me. It buys him nothing - I will always give the usual respect and courtesy gratis.
AntoniaB at January 19, 2011 4:19 PM
This is an interesting conundrum...I used to be part of the school of thought that if you weren't interested in someone, you should tell them, instead of letting them dangle (kinda like how you would rather know you didn't get the job, instead of waiting for a callback for two weeks or something).
Unfortunately, although most guys would probably say they'd prefer to be told plainly, that hasn't been the case in practice. Sure, rejection hurts, but I've had a lot of guys get downright hostile when I've said I'm not interested in another date with them.
On the other hand, I don't send mixed signals..if I'm not into someone, it's going to be pretty obvious.
Choika at January 19, 2011 6:13 PM
"How do you guys reject a 2nd date? Face-to-face? Phone call? Text?"
Good question... The couple of times that I've decided by the end of the date that I didn't want a second date, I handled it by being non-commital at the end of the date. I will admit that I didn't outright tell them "I don't want to date you again". I think it's just human nature that most people feel uncomfortable explicitly rejecting someone else, unless their back is against the wall.
And I can tell you this: Not having your phone calls returned is a heck of a lot better than being stood up.
Cousin Dave at January 19, 2011 6:33 PM
"How do you guys reject a 2nd date? Face-to-face? Phone call? Text?"
Email or a message via the site I met him through. "It was nice to meet you but I wasn't really feeling anything between us, so I'd like to leave it at that" had worked fairly well so far.
Anne de Vries at January 20, 2011 11:33 AM
Oh, boo-hoo-hoo, the bitch doesn't call back.
Listen boy, if you are young in America, that means likely you won't marry for maybe another 10-20 years. Get used to it, kid. Roll with the punches.
You see a women's lips? Made for sucking cock and lying. Unfortunately, usually more of the former than the latter.
You will get stood up, lied to, ignored, snubbed, yelled at, dumped, screeched at, rejected, and who knows what else in the next couple decades. And those are the "nice" girls. Not one will truly care about your character.
The "bad" ones will fling drinks at you, scratch your car, call your employer with foul tales, and crap on your Facebook page. Maybe sleep with your friends, and make a "sale" you were going to make by sleeping with the client. But they are good at sex.
Think you have that promotion, kiddo? What until Hot Toots sleeps with the boss.
Oh, it gets better--you get to pay for all of this! Yes, you are "cheap" if you don't pay. See Alkon's other recent dating post--a bitch gets her sphincter in a knot as the guy paid for dinner, but without the gallant zeal required. So the guy pays, but he is in the wrong.
This is what is in store for you, kid.
Well, there ain't nothing you can do about it, because as a guy, all you really want to do is screw good-looking girls, and they are the ones with the holes. Three of them. On every girl. Yeah, it is exciting--but sadly, we are civilized, and so we are losers in the battle of the sexes.
But there are some guerilla warfare tactics that can work. Tell 'em whatever they want to hear, and lie when necessary. Tell them they are special and different--that almost always works. Hint about long-term commitments. And line up the next girl early on.
Get to know a budget-rate call girl or two. Then you don't "have" to get a girl.
Life can still be good--but you gotta play the angles kid.
Life is tough and then you die. Let that be your credo
BOTU at January 20, 2011 12:30 PM
How much you wanna bet BOTU ends up alone on his deathbed with no one to give a rat's ass what happens to him?
Flynne at January 21, 2011 6:48 AM
I usually read BOTU's posts as parody. Fucking hilarious in that mindset.
People who are truly this bitter are rewarded appropriately.
MonicaP at January 21, 2011 7:33 AM
I'm pretty sure that BOTU is pissed that he's not a woman. I've met a few guys that bitch like he does, and it's because they want to be the one holding all the cards. If they actually were women, they would be the hell-bitches that they complain bitterly about.
Chrissy at January 21, 2011 8:15 AM
"How much you wanna bet BOTU ends up alone on his deathbed with no one to give a rat's ass what happens to him?"
How much you wanna bet you will end up alone on your deathbed surrounded by a loving family members, who greatly care about the size of your bank account?
Chang at January 21, 2011 10:05 AM
Maybe something about him scares the women, or makes them Feel Uncomfortable (TM), so they figure the best way they can get away without getting physically hurt is to promise to see them again...then, from the safety of their homes, never talk to him again.
JMO, of course.
mpetrie98 at January 21, 2011 10:10 AM
How much you wanna bet you will end up alone on your deathbed surrounded by a loving family members, who greatly care about the size of your bank account?
The point is, Chang, that there will BE some loving family members. I don't care if they're there because of money (which I don't have a helluva a lot of.), because I know they'll also be there because they love me and we've shared a lifetime of memories. BOTU is bringing some bad juju on himself by being so bitter. Maybe he'll figure it out before the end, maybe not.
Flynne at January 21, 2011 10:50 AM
"The point is, Chang, that there will BE some loving family members."
How would you know that? Even if that were true, most likely you would be unconscious or suffer Alzheimer's disease to know that there are loving family members on your death bed.
There is a big advantage to die alone and bitter about the whole deal. You will not be sorry that the whole ordeal is now over and no one will go into depression because you are dead.
Don't be too hard on bitter old man. We do have feelings.
Chang at January 21, 2011 11:33 AM
Hey, I am just trying help the kid out--for cricky's sake, he's boo-hooing because a girl didn't call him back. He needs to eat his Maypo (what ever happened to Maypo?).
Actually, I have a family, and I likely won't die alone--although it is better to live well than die well.
Plus. you gotta admit, when a woman writes and waa-waas because some guy was slow to pay on a date (Alkon's recent post), and all the other women cluck-cluck that yes, the guy was a total loser--well, you get the picture how off-kilter modern life is.
The guy asked her out and paid, and now he is regarded as a loser. Boy, is he ever.
He would have been better of with a backpages "date." By 100 miles.
You gotta admit, with snivelers like that (a woman who snivels that her date did not pay with the enormous gallant zeal required) out there, my advice was good for this boy. He needs to get tough, put a little "live and let die" in his personality.
He can be nice to children, grandma, the handicapped etc. There are worthy individuals for our charity. Those people will actually appreciate your efforts.
If he finds a girl he meets him 50/50, then maybe he should get serious about her. That would be a girl who likes him, likes the fact that he paid, and then offers to pay on the rebound. And asks him out on second date.
And yes, I write for comedic effect sometimes--I thought everybody did.
The snivelers never will.
BOTU at January 21, 2011 4:47 PM
BOTU, I'm glad you clarified that your response was comedic. We were all worried about you.
It's hard for a woman to "like" that a man pays for dinner when it seems to come with attachments. It's like a fireman asking, "Hey, how come you don't like that I saved you from a burning building?" when he has you tied up in the basement. Yes, a woman is grateful for dinner, but that's ALL she's required to be. The dinner doesn't obligate her to see the guy again...or marry him...or have his kids.
In fact, her effort to spare his feelings, rather than rejecting him outright, is arguably proof of her gratitude for being treated to dinner. She doesn't want to mistreat him after he was so nice to her. And, even if she reached for her wallet, in all probability, he would've insisted on paying anyway, and most women view that as a sign of a man's masculinity and don't want to offend him by pushing it. To a man, that can seem like, "Oh I think you're too weak (poor) to pay."
Dating is brutal for both sexes. It's sad when you get dressed up, with high hopes, and spend a few hours with someone, only to realize that they're not for you. Most women don't do this solely for the dinner, just as most men don't do this solely for the possibility of sex. Although there are people with agendas on both sides, most are truly trying to find a partner.
lovelysoul at January 21, 2011 7:00 PM
You know, thinking back on all my dates, each and every one I reached for my wallet, and every time (except once), the man shushed me away. Now, I suspect many of these guys later bitched that they paid for my dinner, and I didn't end up with them. But what was I to do? Say, "Oh, no, here, let me pay since I have no intention of ever seeing you again?"
lovelysoul at January 21, 2011 7:08 PM
BOTU has it right. i've been with some partners that were pretty good lays - but who needs the drama? would say whatever it took to get what they want - then cry to me about how they "don't like to play games". never once cared about my character, or my opinions, background, etc. just wanted to be taken care of... oh, wait. i'm a woman. those were men.
gee. ain't life a kick in the pants?
people are people, people (redundancy, i am your queen!) some men lie. some women lie. but what it all boils down to is: we say what we say to get out of a potentially awkward situation.
LW - move on, for god's (and ms alkon's readers') sake!
zelda at January 21, 2011 8:51 PM
Exactly lovelysoul. Sometimes people just want to do something nice and don't expect anything for it. I often pay for coffee/drinks/lunch with friends that I know are hard up - students, minimum wage jobs, etc. I have a good professional job so I can afford it, and it makes me happy to give them a treat I know they can't really afford themselves. I have a lot less patience with people I know are ok financially who don't reciprocate. But there's no way I would let a woman pay on the first date, even if I appreciate the offer. After that, sure, depending on our respective capacities some give and take is good.
All this obsession over who pays and what obligations that imposes on the recipient is ridiculous. It's dinner not a fucking car.
And BOTU - you're an idiot
You see a women's lips? Made for sucking cock and lying. Unfortunately, usually more of the former than the latter.
Unfortunately? So you prefer the latter...interesting
Ltw at January 21, 2011 9:00 PM
Ltw-
Obviously, I have a little dicks-lexia going on.
BOTU at January 22, 2011 12:37 PM
Ha ha BOTU, ten points from the East German judge for that :)
Ltw at January 22, 2011 9:25 PM
For a troll, you're pretty entertaining...
Ltw at January 22, 2011 9:27 PM
BOtU, I thought it was lex-dixsia.
ken in sc at January 23, 2011 1:56 PM
BOTU's mouth is good for licking boots and golden showers. I'd bet a Benjamin he wants his balls crushed, too. He's an uppity lil guy- he talks a good game, but deep down he wants to be collared- it's soooo obvious! If he's lucky, his domme is punishing him right now for what he wrote. ; )
Gspotted at January 23, 2011 6:36 PM
lovelysoul says:
"You know, thinking back on all my dates, each and every one I reached for my wallet, and every time (except once), the man shushed me away. Now, I suspect many of these guys later bitched that they paid for my dinner, and I didn't end up with them. But what was I to do? Say, "Oh, no, here, let me pay since I have no intention of ever seeing you again?""
I still do not quite understand what would be so terrible about saying something along these lines.
If you would feel comfortable enough to reject them later, then what is so bad about rejecting them then and there?
You wouldn't even have to say it the way you are suggesting, a more tactful way would be to say "I really don't feel the romantic chemistry here, so why don't I pay my half and we can consider this a dinner between friends". Men tend not to insist on paying for friendly dinners, only romantic ones.
It is interesting to me how often people will rant here about how money isn't the issue, instead it is about what behavior displays about personal character. If this is really the case, and money really doesn't matter then the above solution should be perfectly acceptable to everyone. I mean it is tactful, direct, gets the message across, and doesn’t leave anyone potentially feeling used. That seems like one of best ways to handle things if character is really what is important here.
Reality at January 23, 2011 9:34 PM
I think you make a good point Reality.
To a certain extent, things do work that way already. From what I've experienced, the more a woman insists on chipping in to paying for the first date, the less interested she is in a second date.
Snoopy at January 25, 2011 3:22 PM
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