Home Is Where The Fart Is
My wife of eight years is a really good person but always needs reassurance that she's attractive. I'm finding that difficult because, on a typical night, she takes a dump in our master bathroom with the door open, saunters over to our bed with a few open sores on her face from picking her zits, rips a fart, and comes at me for a kiss. I give her a peck and dive under the covers so she won't think I'm interested in sex. She then feels rejected and unloved. When I point out specific things that turn me off, she's offended. She apparently expects me to be supernaturally attracted to her despite her actions (always wearing nasty sweatpants, hair in shambles, etc.). I don't expect her to dress up, just to try to look a little cute. If only she'd see herself as a beautiful, seductive, confident woman, and act like it -- instead of acting like her girlfriends, who brag that they've "trained" their husbands to accept their burping, farting, etc. Am I completely ignorant about true love?
--Troubled But Committed
When somebody asks, "So, what first attracted you to your wife?" I'm guessing you don't answer, "I'd have to say it's pretty much a toss up between the toxic farts and oozing open sores."
It's no accident that toilets are installed in little locking closets in the corners of homes and not in a big glass box in the middle of the living room. ("Poop du Soleil" is not a spectacle people are looking to see.) There are those couples who brag, "Nothing comes between us, not even the bathroom door!" That may work for them, but you've made it clear to your wife that watching her pick her acne scabs while straining on the pot isn't your idea of foreplay.
Your wife probably buys into the notion that love involves embracing absolutely everything about a person, including everything that comes out of their intestines. (Well, love might be blind, but lust sure isn't, nor has it had its nostrils cemented shut.) Your wife, like her burping, farting girlfriends, seems to see the marriage license as a voucher entitling her to retire from making an effort. Of course, it doesn't help that academic feminism elevated refusing to please a man into a sociopolitical virtue: "Dismantle patriarchy!" "Rewrite herstory!" "March around in nasty old sweatpants and see how long you can go without washing your hair!"
With so much support for your wife's behavior from her friends and society, your best bet for getting her to change is coming at this from the love angle: You've failed to master the secret language of farts (one long burst and two short ones mean "I love you, your happiness means everything to me"?), and frankly, your feelings are hurt. You don't care how these other women treat their husbands. You want to be treated like you're special, like it means something to her to meet your needs. To minimize her defensiveness, separate the woman from the behavior: I love YOU and think YOU are a beautiful, sexy, sensual woman, but I find these BEHAVIORS off-putting. They block the beautiful view -- kind of like a billboard in front of Yosemite. (Actually, it's more like a New York City garbage truck, but that's not helpful.) The bottom line is, you love her so, so much, and you're just asking that she join you in a few small steps to keep the heat in your marriage -- and no, lighting her farts isn't one of them.
I'd also be very concerned that the wife is hanging out with people who brag about training their husbands. That's not exactly the secret to a happy marriage.
Snoopy at January 25, 2011 3:27 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1829672">comment from SnoopyIt suggests contempt for men.
Amy Alkon at January 25, 2011 3:55 PM
My niece is this type. Lifts her arse off the dining room chair or family room couch and lets rip. Belches like Homer Simpson. Are women like this crazy!? Who would find it acceptable to behave like that? I'm really mystified, just can't understand it.
crella at January 25, 2011 4:13 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1829683">comment from crellaUnbelievable.
Amy Alkon at January 25, 2011 4:20 PM
If only she'd see herself as a beautiful, seductive, confident woman, and act like it
he deserves exactly what he's getting.
jj at January 25, 2011 4:58 PM
Lifts her arse off the dining room chair or family room couch and lets rip.
Oh, eww.
I'd also be very concerned that the wife is hanging out with people who brag about training their husbands.
Too many women think "Roseanne" is a how-to guide to marriage.
MonicaP at January 25, 2011 5:00 PM
I think that the LW's wife is playing with him. She knows perfectly well why he doesn't find her attractive, but she doesn't care about him enough to make the effort. So she's playing the victim to shame him into accepting how she looks. It's really that simple.
It suggests contempt for men.
I agree. It's spiteful. Wives I know who talk that way about their husbands tend to be resentful of them.
Maurice at January 25, 2011 5:32 PM
hmm....is she REALLY looking for intimacy? Almost seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to avoid sex and blame him for it.
BrideofPoe at January 25, 2011 5:39 PM
I do my best to keep the fires burning in my marriage. After being together for nearly 14 years, I still find him sexy and do my best to keep him interested.
I know that it is normal for some to slip every now and then but wow - she sounds like she's a MESS!
And I agree that her behavior is possibly a passive-aggressive approach to ducking out of intimate moments or hell - maybe she is just flat out CLUELESS.
Whatever the reason, I hope that these feminist women consider that - while they are sitting alone, bragging of their independence - that it may not be a choice at all. They just may not be DESIRED...whatsoever!
Anji at January 25, 2011 6:18 PM
"Unbelievable. "
Yes, hard to believe she's from the same planet, never mind the same family.
crella at January 25, 2011 8:34 PM
*****("Poop du Soleil" is not a spectacle people are looking to see.) *****
Thanks. Now I have to clean the wine I snorted out of my nose off my monitor. :D
Seriously, what is her deal? I'm with those who said she seems to be contemptuous of men. She certainly has no respect for her husband, if she's acting like that around him. Gross.
It isn't rocket science to figure out that if you want to get laid once in awhile you have to make an effort to earn it. Sheesh.
Daghain at January 25, 2011 9:04 PM
I just don't get it. I mean, I, like pretty much everyone else in the world, spent the first 18 years of my life living with the people who used to change my diapers. You can't get much more intimate or guaranteed unconditional love than that. But there's no way in hell I'd go around emitting bodily functions in front of them. Wonder if LW's wife and her friends behave that way around their parents, kids, siblings, oldest friends too. My guess is no--for some reason that level of comfort is reserved for the person whom they actually want to find them sexually attractive. It makes no sense.
Shannon at January 25, 2011 10:10 PM
Erm, where does it say she's a feminist?
Normally the ones who brag about "training" husbands are pretty retro.
NicoleK at January 25, 2011 11:00 PM
Perhaps she grew up with a lot of brothers and that's what she was surrounded with as a child and sees nothing wrong with it. Maybe it's not passive aggressive, maybe it's just ignorance that in the correct way could make her understand how you feel.
Tasha at January 25, 2011 11:15 PM
Dear LW, I say with regret that it seems you've married a swine, instead of a woman. I bet she wasn't this horrible prior to the wedding day, because then, she actually had to be attractive to keep you.
She also get reinforcement for here nasty habits from her friends. Things definitely are not looking up.
If I were living with a woman, I would run the fan and keep the bathroom door shut, when taking a dump. No need to expose the one I love to my malodorous air. And if I had an especially bad outbreak of my acne (chronic for 30 years now), I would probably go sleep in a different room until it cleared up some. I certainly would not uglo-fy myself by picking at the zits.
I hope your wife is reading this, so my reply will have hit her with a clue-bat. Lots of luck.
mpetrie98 at January 26, 2011 1:15 AM
Dear LW, I say with regret that it seems you've married a swine, instead of a woman. I bet she wasn't this horrible prior to the wedding day, because then, she actually had to be attractive to keep you.
She also gets reinforcement for here nasty habits from her friends. Things definitely are not looking up.
If I were living with a woman, I would run the fan and keep the bathroom door shut, when taking a dump. No need to expose the one I love to my malodorous air. And if I had an especially bad outbreak of my acne (chronic for 30 years now), I would probably go sleep in a different room until it cleared up some. I certainly would not uglofy myself by picking at the zits.
I hope your wife is reading this, so my reply will have hit her with a clue-bat. Lots of luck.
mpetrie98 at January 26, 2011 1:16 AM
Dear LW, I say with regret that it seems you've married a swine, instead of a woman. I bet she wasn't this horrible prior to the wedding day, because then, she actually had to be attractive to keep you.
She also gets reinforcement for here nasty habits from her friends. Things definitely are not looking up.
If I were living with a woman, I would run the fan and keep the bathroom door shut, when taking a dump. No need to expose the one I love to my malodorous air. And if I had an especially bad outbreak of my acne (chronic for 30 years now), I would probably go sleep in a different room until it cleared up some. I certainly would not uglofy myself by picking at the zits.
I hope your wife is reading this, so my reply will have hit her with a clue bat. Lots of luck.
mpetrie98 at January 26, 2011 1:16 AM
Dear LW, I say with regret that it seems you have married a swine, instead of a woman. I bet she wasn't this horrible prior to the wedding day, because then, she actually had to be attractive to keep you.
She also gets reinforcement for here nasty habits from her friends. Things definitely are not looking up.
If I were living with a woman, I would run the fan and keep the bathroom door shut, when taking a dump. No need to expose the one I love to my malodorous air. And if I had an especially bad outbreak of my acne (chronic for 30 years now), I would probably go sleep in a different room until it cleared up some. I certainly would not uglofy myself by picking at the zits.
I hope your wife is reading this, so my reply will have hit her with a clue bat. Lots of luck.
mpetrie98 at January 26, 2011 1:18 AM
Dang, I kept getting error messages from your software when I was posting, so I didn't think my replies made it. Could somebody remove the 3 repeat postings, please. I'm sure my first reply would make LW uncomfortable enough, as it is, without him reading it 3 more times. Thanks.
mpetrie98 at January 26, 2011 1:36 AM
If she lived in a vacuum, but once an you're an adult and you go out to work you soon can see what's proper and what's not in polite company, if it even takes that long. Most people 'get it' by high school if not earlier.
crella at January 26, 2011 1:59 AM
This isn't going to be a popular post among this crowd, but:
The LW says, "Am I completely ignorant about true love?"
Yes.
Completely aside from any frame of feminism or contempt for men that has been suggested, you wife has falsely concluded that she shares with you a true sense of intimacy and trust that would allow her to be comfortable with herself and around you in her own home.
She isn't testing your patience, nor is she passive aggressively trying to stymie your sex life.
She thinks and trusts, wrongly, that you love her.
And to Shannon, who "... spent the first 18 years of [her] life living with the people who used to change [her] diapers. You can't get much more intimate or guaranteed unconditional love than that."
Although I see your point, it has a big flaw. If you're not a heck of a lot more intimate with your husband than you are with your parents, there is either a serious problem with your marriage or a very disturbing police report to be filed.
Having said all this unpopular stuff, I will concede the following caveats:
-- Once the husband makes his objections to her behavior clear, she would be wise to respect his sensibilities.
--I'm referring more to the normal morning shit and disheveled hair, etc. If she's consistently laying around in sweatpants and makes no effort to look good for you, disregard my entire post.
whistleDick at January 26, 2011 4:52 AM
My guess is she would never zip-pop, fart, belch, etc. in front of a stranger, because she knows the stranger would be offended, contemptuous, grossed out, etc.
Why would you treat your S/O with less regard well than a stranger, unless you *want* them to feel offended, grossed-out, etc. She would never try this stuff with a guy she was trying to hook into a relationship. Why she would do this stuff where she is trying to keep a relationship is beyond me.
For that reason, I was thinking this sounds like a passive aggressive attempt by her to make the guy less interested in her. Why? Who knows.
Spartee at January 26, 2011 4:55 AM
"...instead of acting like her girlfriends, who brag that they've "trained" their husbands to accept their burping, farting, etc."
This letter sounded credible right up until this point, then the LW totally lost me. The above observation, along with the phrase, "my wife is a really good person" just sounds as if he's building up a store of ammo to rationalize leaving his wife.
I've listened to a small army of friends (male and female) talk about wanting to break up with someone and that phrase--so and so is a REALLY GOOD PERSON--is a universal component of the rationale.
As for the other wives and their training their husbands to accept slobby behaviour, (and this is happening somewhere in the middle of the Yemeni desert perhaps?), I'm not buying it.
In the many years I've been alive, I've seen women get together to discuss all things from the ridiculous to the sublime. I've sat through tedious lingerie and tupperware parties on one hand, and on the other, I've taken part in philosophical debates with women that have made my head spin.
But never have I seen a group of women get together and brag about being slobs and brag even further about how they've trained their men to accept it. In my life, that's just not happening.
There's something about women and their innate competitiveness that just speaks against this. The LW should just man up and admit he's not into his wife anymore and leave other women out of it.
ie at January 26, 2011 4:57 AM
@ie: "The LW should just man up and admit he's not into his wife anymore and leave other women out of it."
Perfect.
whistleDick at January 26, 2011 5:03 AM
@Spartee: "Why would you treat your S/O with less regard well than a stranger ..."
I see aspects of this not as a matter of less regard, but as more intimate. You also wouldn't share secrets with a stranger, nor would you share secrets with someone you are courting. You certainly would with someone you were very close with.
WhistleDick at January 26, 2011 5:08 AM
Perhaps she grew up with a lot of brothers and that's what she was surrounded with as a child and sees nothing wrong with it. Maybe it's not passive aggressive, maybe it's just ignorance that in the correct way could make her understand how you feel.
Nah. I grew up with three brothers and there's no way in HELL I would do any of those things the LW says his wife does. Growing up with brothers (and their friends) made me MORE aware of what boys like in girls, and believe me when I tell you, the ones that farted like them, drank like them, and acted like them, were the ones who got the bad reputations and were treated like sluts. Girls like me, who acted like girls (with the occasional misstep, not constant ones), were protected by the boys, to the point of my older brother telling one of his musician friends, "you touch my sister, I'll break your fingers".
If LW's wife truly "has falsely concluded that she shares with you a true sense of intimacy and trust that would allow her to be comfortable with herself and around you in her own home.", still "eeewwwww" on her. I am TOTALLY comfortable with my BF, and he with me, but there are certain things you do in private, and "taking a dump" and "popping zits" are two of them. I don't even like him to see me plucking my stray eyebrows from my chin!
Flynne at January 26, 2011 5:47 AM
My father was the big farter in our family. He would start--usually when my mom and I were in the kitchen doing the dishes after supper--and my brother and I, for fun, would run away and make it look like we were hiding behind the furniture, diving under cover, etc. In other words, we made a family joke about it. Even my mother would laugh.
I can see how that might not work in all families, but I know it must in some (if it did in ours). And, when I think about it, it has always been men who have done the farting (or whatever offensive behaviour).
ie at January 26, 2011 6:00 AM
"@Spartee: "Why would you treat your S/O with less regard well than a stranger ..."
ie: I see aspects of this not as a matter of less regard, but as more intimate. You also wouldn't share secrets with a stranger, nor would you share secrets with someone you are courting. You certainly would with someone you were very close with."
Do I really have to say this: Farting in your presence =/= intimately sharing secrets in a relationship?
Spartee at January 26, 2011 6:37 AM
I've listened to a small army of friends (male and female) talk about wanting to break up with someone and that phrase--so and so is a REALLY GOOD PERSON--is a universal component of the rationale.
I'd thought that as well. I have the impression that the LW just doesn't find his wife attractive any longer. It's doubtful that she performs the ritual that he's describing every single night. He's just using those behaviors as examples of what he doesn't like. So the question is whether his expectations are realistic. Has she really let herself go so badly, or is he just unhappy with the older, more settled, version of her?
@IE the idea of 'training' your husband is actually very common in the states. It's something you'll see promoted through women's magazines, TV shows and such. So I wouldn't discount the idea that her friends talk that way.
IIRC you'd mentioned that you live in Montreal. If so, you're living in a very different culture of women from what you'll find in the states. For whatever reason, giving up on your appearance is regarded as one of the rewards of marriage in the US. Take a drive through any suburb, or visit a shopping mall, and you'll see what I'm getting at. If these women are competing with each other, it's to see who can do the best impression of a high school gym teacher.
Mel at January 26, 2011 6:39 AM
Hi Spartee,
That wasn't ie that equated farting with sharing secrets, it was me. Although they're not exactly equal, I think my analogy made a good point. That is, that you don't treat someone you're intimate with in the same way that you would treat a stranger, nor should you.
It's obvious from the reaction of most respondents to this letter that a lot of people feel that a line has been crossed by this wife. Perhaps it has, I don't have all the information. I'm just saying that she's not some sort of a freak. I was married for a very long time and if my wife and I were in an engaging conversation, we would continue it in the bathroom if one or the other had business to conduct. It wasn't weird, we were just that comfortable with one another. Just as it wasn't weird for me to take care of the bedpan duties while she was in labor with my children.
None of that put any sort of a damper on sexuality within the relationship. It certainly does describe a level of intimacy that goes far beyond parent/child, stranger/stranger, courter/courted, or "fat ugly wife"/"husband that's sick of her taking him for granted and probably resents a whole lot of other things about her" relationships.
I'm just sayin' :)
whistleDick at January 26, 2011 7:07 AM
My husband believes me to be a sexy Goddess therefore he treats me as such. Why would I want to shatter that perception by leaving him with an aroma of Au de Toilet Bowl and a green haze instead of the lingering scent of my lovely perfume upon departing a room unless I wanted him to treat me as less of a Goddess? My husband also knows that I poop but I’ll be damned if I will ever allow evidence of the latter to destroy his fantasy of me as a perfect specimen who only reeks of sunflowers and lotion.
It’s actually really simple. If you want him to lust after you, give him something to lust after. The ignorant slobbering man hating “feminists” will have you believe that a man should love everything about you, including the pussing sore on your face and the smell of your shit. Well I am sure my husband still loved me very much when I was puking my guts out after getting food poisoning last year, but I am also sure he has no desire to bend me over the toilet bowl and ravage my sweat and vomit laden body. And I am fairly confident that he wasn’t thinking “Wow, that green mucus pouring out of her nose really makes her ass look great,” when I was suffering from a sinus infection this summer. I also have no reason to think that he loves me any less when I am wearing a face mask and covered in hair, but he surely isn’t interested in making sweet monkey love to a wildebeest either.
Sure people become more comfortable with each other after marriage but just because one has married doesn't mean that manners fly out the window. I don’t believe that women are off the hook after they’ve hooked their man. If I wouldn’t do it on a date, or out in public, I won’t do it to my husband. I also work very hard to maintain my appearance for him and make every effort to make sure that I am still attractive to him. We know everything about each other, from social security numbers to the freckles on each other’s back. He sees me in the morning with my hair a mess and no makeup, has held my hair while I was vomiting, and even knows my cycle. Eventually, he will see me covered in baby spit and after that with any luck, old and wrinkly. I still try to maintain a little mystery where I can though.
And, it goes both ways. While I am doing my part to maintain some mystery and attractiveness, he does the same for me. I don’t ask him to buy me tampons, and I don’t expect him to want a roll in the hay after I just blew up the bathroom, and in return, he shaves and bathes regularly, doesn’t let ‘em rip with a passion, and doesn’t ask me for a nooner after he’s been sitting around like Al Bundy playing the PS3 all day. That seems to be what’s missing the letter in my opinion. There are TWO people in this relationship after all. Is he also letting himself go? Is she acting so put out because he is also not maintaining himself yet criticizing her? Does he also make the effort to maintain the mystery? What is the LW doing to make himself attractive to his wife? I also get the impression that he may be exaggerating just a bit. I doubt that his wife has made herself so unattractive that he can’t even find a moment where he wants to get it on. I wonder if he’s just lost his mojo or is just over the relationship in general and is using these occasional mishaps as an excuse.
Sabrina at January 26, 2011 7:17 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1830349">comment from SabrinaSimply great, Sabrina. You get it.
P.S. Your comment reminded me of something that happened to me. A friend and I had gone out for drinks and snacks, and I felt really sick afterward (food poisoning). I asked him, "Mind if I come up and throw up in your apartment?"
He said it wasn't exactly the best offer he'd had from a woman.
Amy Alkon at January 26, 2011 7:23 AM
"It’s actually really simple. If you want him to lust after you, give him something to lust after."
This. is. sublime.
So much of life can be summarized in this simple yet profound insight. If you want something from someone else, you must expect to offer something in return.
If you want to keep a job, give your employer an economic reason to pay you. If you want your kids' respect, give them reason to respect you. If you want your mate's lust, keep yourself lust-worthy.
There are no days off in such things, folks, only days you stop trying.
Spartee at January 26, 2011 7:46 AM
Amy,
It can't be any worse than the time I went out on a date and the resturant's cuisine was something that my body decided it didn't like and immediatly decided to purge it from my body. From both ends. That date ended very quickly.
My dates words to me were, "You didn't tell me you were also a stunt double for the Exorcist." Luckily, he gave me a second chance. We dated for a few months and were still friendly for a while after that. He once told me that he's still thankful that he that he got the worst of it right from the get go because if he could handle that, every other relationship "gross" issue would be cake after that... lol...
Sabrina at January 26, 2011 7:52 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1830365">comment from SabrinaMy dates words to me were, "You didn't tell me you were also a stunt double for the Exorcist." Luckily, he gave me a second chance.
Actually, if the person's cool and has a sense of humor, and isn't totally grossed out to the point where they can't look at you again, it could be a great bonding experience.
And I do love knowing that Gregg would want me to wake him up in Detroit to tell him I was throwing up. People are really stupid about what showing love is supposed to be. I know Gregg loves me because of that, and because he bought a toilet augur and snaked my toilet for me after I dropped a pen down it, and (dimshit!) thought, "Oh, it's just a slim little thing. I'm not going to stick my hand in there and get it. I'll just flush."
Right. There's a thing called "the trap" that stops pens from being flushed. And then the pen stops your toilet from flushing all that well. (This is better, actually, than if it gets through the trap. It's only a few thousand dollars, I believe, if you need a plumber to clear it out of the sewer line.)
Amy Alkon at January 26, 2011 8:09 AM
Given how much a guys wants sex she must be quite the spectecle to shut a guy down that fast.
Now I understand that women generally, especially after marrige, arent 'in the mood' as often as men, but given how short our lives are I fail understand why so many people go out of their way to avoid having sex with the person the are supposedly in love with.
Personally I'm hoping to die durring or imediatly after sex at some point before I have to shoot myself because of the dementia setting in.
lujlp at January 26, 2011 8:24 AM
Mel, we get a lot of the same TV shows and magazines up here and I'm still not sure what you mean. I think some of these men go along with what their wives turn into because most of them are turning into a male version of the same thing, no?
@Sabrina: I don't know about all of this "mysteriousness" stuff. I think it's awfully hard to have a truly intimate relationship and not see some of what the LW is describing, even if only occasionally. I'm with whistledick on this one.
I have about three gal friends who believe what you do, and their husbands/boyfriends still cheated on them. But two were from different cultures--one a Brit and the other from South Africa--and, on occasions when I visited them (as in staying with them) there seemed to be a hell of lot of tension between husband and wife. It was to the point where I stopped staying with them when I visited those countries.
The cheating, which I could have predicted years before it was discovered, surprised no one. It was if by catering so much to their husbands, these put themselves into weakened positions and lost power in the relationship.
Now, it could be argued that they stayed attractive for THEMSELVES and wouldn't use the toilet if their husbands came within sniffing distance for THEMSELES, but what their intentions were and what their husbands actually perceived were two different things.
That is, I think these men saw their wives as enslaved to the idea of staying beautiful for THEM and, as is typical of human nature, these men were bored by the lack of challenge and looked elsewhere for it.
In each of the three cases, the men cheated with women who were LESS attractive than these women. I saw a picture of one of these mistresses--my one friend took a picture with her cellphone and emailed it to me--and the woman looked like a 200 pound version of the man's mother! All 5' 1" of her.
These women were hurt by the cheating, but were outraged that the fact that the mistresses were less attractive. They resented, I believe, the fact that they'd invested so much in their looks only to be thrown over for women who didn't really seem to care. In other words, they focussed on the shallow side of life and were left feeling pretty empty when their men left.
I've talked to men about this (including one of these husbands) and it seems to me that what most men want in a woman is authenticity. And, I love perfume myself, but I don't smell like Yves St. Laurent 24/7, nor do I wish to.
I think finding a balance is more appropriate. I'm the sort who believes kind-hearted toilet etiquette and hiring a cleaning lady, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste time on a man who expects me to spend one third of my life grooming and biting my nails over what he might or might not smell coming out of my body. And the same goes the other way. If the guy has more grooming products than me, or is too fastidious about natural human functions, that's enough for me to say "I'm outta here." Men like that just get on my nerves.
ie at January 26, 2011 8:49 AM
I find it hard to believe that in the period leading up to the engagement and during the engagement she didn't reveal some of this behavior.
I'm betting that, while dating, when they were sitting around watching the game or a movie, they goofed around and made light of "smell my many smells."
He didn't realize that this was going to be normal behavior ... and she didn't realize he didn't want it to be.
Men want their wives to be a buddy, a manager, a therapist, a sexpot, and a lady - sometimes all at once. Sounds like she took the buddy part too far and didn't do enough of the others.
She's still trying to be a buddy - "just one of the guys" - with him; which he wants when the game's on, but not when the lights are low.
And her delusional friends aren't helping her or themselves.
I wonder how long those friends have been married and if their "trained" husbands aren't eyeing the cute chick at the coffee shop with more on their minds than sharing a latte.
Conan the Grammarian at January 26, 2011 9:43 AM
Mel's right. It's very common to hear or see the term 'train' applied to husbands and boyfriends. I don't think that most women are motivated by contempt when they say this, but it's hypocritical nonetheless. Because the same women would typically go ballistic if their husbands ever said anything like that towards them.
JulieY at January 26, 2011 9:49 AM
I think it's awfully hard to have a truly intimate relationship and not see some of what the LW is describing, even if only occasionally.
Key word: occasionally. Sounds like this person is bringing these items front and center, and anything but occasional.
Here's a thought experiment: reverse the gender of the offending party and the offended party. Does your opinion change? and if so, why?
Think of LW being a beer-swilling, pot-bellied, belching, farting Al Bundy.
I R A Darth Aggie at January 26, 2011 9:55 AM
Best Al Bundy line: Ah, honey, we had sex last year!
;-)
I R A Darth Aggie at January 26, 2011 9:57 AM
http://www.hulu.com/watch/61322/saturday-night-live-the-love-toilet
lujlp at January 26, 2011 10:32 AM
@IRA Darth. If a woman wrote in I would assume the same thing: she is stockpiling reasons to leave her partner.
The obvious answer is for the LW to talk to his wife. But he's not doing that; he's writing to an advice columnist and watching for her response and ours. And my guess is that he's looking for confirmation that he's right, not only about his wife, but women in general.
And for the most part, he's getting what he's asked for. I just believe in cutting through the BS and getting to the real point. He's not attracted to his wife and is building up a list of dislikes and/or resentments so that when he does go, he'll feel justified. This is typical behaviour of someone formulating an exit strategy.
I've heard the word "train" used too, but usually in regard to getting a husband to cut the grass each weekend or wash the car regularly or do something domestic like that. I've never heard it in regard to training a husband to accept the fact that his wife farts. Good heavens, I must be leading a sheltered life.
ie at January 26, 2011 10:35 AM
Well, is the wife a hottie otherwise? If she is a tiger, a few zits and farts can be overlooked. Conversation?
Does she like to go to museums or ballgames?
That is the problem, I suppose with all these LWs. We get such a small windown into their situation, it is like groping in the dark...
Which is fun with a nubile woman, at least after she has off-gassed. Light some candles, and skin blemishes are less visible. They also burn off gasses.
Would LW prefer a little Miss Perfect, who doesn't want to muss her hair by making love like banshees?
BOTU at January 26, 2011 10:37 AM
@ ie
I actually agree with you for the most part. Of course there must be some sense of balance when it comes to these things. I don't spend every waking moment catering to my husband and bite my nails worrying about what my husband smells. Do I lock myself away after unloading in the restroom to avoid awkwardness from my husband? No. But I don't make an announcement about it either. He knows I poop, because he understands biology and sometimes the smell just can't be avoided, but he doesn't want a report on it when it happens and he doesn't want to witness the main event. That's what I mean about mystery.
When we shower together, it's quality time together, not time to groom each other like apes although we do wash each other’s hair. And when I got ill, he held my hair and helped wipe the floor. And when I am in labor with our child, I am 100% sure that he will have no problems dealing with whatever substances happen to come before and after that. THAT’S intimacy. I do not consider dropping a load in front of my husband and farting for amusement to be intimate acts of affection for each other. Perhaps that is comfortable for some couples, but not for us.
I still value my privacy, even though we are married. I am not just his wife; I am still an individual with my own friends and interests. Sometimes, I don't put make up on because I just don't feel like it. And, in the end, I dress mostly for ME because it makes ME feel good. My point is that I make the effort to be considerate to his sensibilities and he does the same for me, because we care about what the other thinks of us and how we look. I maintain my weight not just for health and vanity but also because he loves my body and I want him to continue loving it. It's just one factor, not the entire point of my working out. But he also doesn't criticize when I gain a few pounds occasionally as he understands that sometimes, life just gets in the way of the gym.
I understand that my husbands male and is a visual creature and if I want him to lust for me, then I need to give him a reason too. Like Noxema said in Too Wong Foo, “If you want to let him know there’s steak for dinner you need to let him hear it sizzle.” It's naive to think otherwise. And while I do make an effort to be attractive to my husband, I also know that I am more than JUST my looks. My physical traits are what got him in the beginning, but it's that plus the rest that make him stay. That is where your example of men cheating on their beautiful wives fails.
It's possible that perhaps all these women had to offer to their men from the get go were just their looks. In my opinion, it could then be argued that those men had to know they had no substance and clearly only married them for their looks anyway. The wife cannot be blamed for the husbands’ lack of forethought. And, it's also possible that these women didn't have anything else going on in their lives because of the husbands’ insistence that they be stay at home wives/mothers, and because of that, they became boring. It could also be argued that the men were just bad husbands. How many of your friends were victims of husbands who were never satisfied? It’s possible that the jilted wives focused on the looks part of it because their husband never communicated anything to them about why they were unhappy enough to cheat so they focused on the one thing that they did know, that they were better looking than those women. And… let's face it, sometimes men (and women) just cheat because they can and the wife (or husband) isn't to blame at all, no matter how attractive or unattractive.
I have also talked to a lot of men about this and while most of them say they want authenticity, (as in human) they also want a woman who still tries to be attractive. But, they can’t say that because women have a habit of turning a comment like that around and using it against men. If a man says that he wants his woman to be physically attractive, let’s be honest, a lot of women would tear him apart for it. Sure, men get that a woman has to poop and fart every now and then, and they understand that stilettos aren't practical for everyday wear, and they certainly aren't going to leave a woman who gets zits occasionally, but not a single man I spoke to ever tells me that what they want most in a woman is someone who never shaves and can lift her cheek and clear a room. This “authenticity” desire is also sometimes where women can't win. Men sometimes SAY they want a woman who's "real" but then when they get that, they get bored. What they really want something that’s more playboy bunny who cooks, watches football, is a great housekeeper, and can talk about politics and science for hours. And they expect to get it while being covered in hair and 20 lbs overweight themselves.
Sabrina at January 26, 2011 10:57 AM
My niece is this type. Lifts her arse off the dining room chair or family room couch and lets rip. Belches like Homer Simpson. Are women like this crazy!? Who would find it acceptable to behave like that? I'm really mystified, just can't understand it.
I know a woman who does this, too. I think she likes to believe she is being "unconventional," "unorthodox," or "unique." She prides herself on being "one of the guys."
Pirate Jo at January 26, 2011 11:59 AM
@lujp
Now I understand that women generally, especially after marriage, aren't 'in the mood' as often as men
Not to denigrate your experience, but I do think this sort of belief is as retro and potentially relationship-hurting as "women should train their husbands." (Of course, that said, if I could train my husband to put out every day, and twice on weekends and bank holidays, maybe I'd look into this "training" business.)
Maybe some men are unpleasant enough after marriage to turn women off, and vice versa, but in general, most people like sex. And just speaking from a physiological standpoint (leaving hang-ups, health issues, and whatnot out of it), women can have and enjoy more sex than men (due to capacity for multiple orgasms vs. male refractory period). Everyone's sex drive varies, and of course low-sex-drive and asexual people exist on both sides of the gender divide, but I've never met a physically healthy high-self-esteem woman who didn't enjoy getting it on with her partner.
I just think it's a sad comment on our culture that so many men seem to think women don't like sex. Seems to lead to a lot of misunderstandings and frustration. (And shaming of women who do enjoy a nice roll in the hay as somehow "unnatural.") My 2.7 cents American.
Anathema at January 26, 2011 12:13 PM
@Anathema
I agree with you - it is a sad comment on our culture.
I am deeply suspicious of men who think women don't like sex - it makes me think the women THEY are having sex with don't like it, which makes me think they're not doing it very well.
It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy - if a man thinks you won't like it anyways, how much effort is he actually putting in?
A small part of me has always kinda snickered about this rather roundabout way men cheat themselves out of getting laid more often. The rest of me is very depressed about it.
hahahathud at January 26, 2011 1:03 PM
Typical American feminist BS. He needs to dump her and find someone who respects him enough to look good for him. Maybe a foreign woman. My Paraguayan girlfriend closes/locks the door, turns the fan on, and lets the sink run while doing her business, and then she takes a shower so she is fresh and clean. She always tries so hard to look great. It is a cultural thing, but I really appreciate it. If more guys knew about this they would be dumping the feminists and start looking elsewhere.
mike at January 26, 2011 1:06 PM
Said this before:
Women marry hoping he will change, and men marry hoping she does not change.
mike at January 26, 2011 1:11 PM
I do agree though with just about everyone else here about both maintaining yourself, physically & otherwise. People of both genders often let themselves go when they are in a long-term relationship.
That goes for the menfolk as well - do NOT buy into the notion the women are not visual.
At best we are perhaps less visual, but don't think for one second we are not noticing that didn't shower before coming to bed or that your belly now grazes ours when you go missionary.
hahahathud at January 26, 2011 1:19 PM
When I was with my ex, I thought I didn't like sex. Turned out I just didn't like sex with him.
MonicaP at January 26, 2011 2:15 PM
My Paraguayan girlfriend closes/locks the door, turns the fan on, and lets the sink run while doing her business, and then she takes a shower so she is fresh and clean.
You mean, she takes a shower after every time she goes pee? If I did that after a pot of coffee, I'd end up showering about four times before noon! ;-D
Pirate Jo at January 26, 2011 2:28 PM
"He needs to dump her..."
I agree Mike, but first he's got to find the balls to do it instead of blaming all of women-kind.
ie at January 26, 2011 3:54 PM
@Sabrina: none of these women were stay at home wives or mothers. All of them had a lot going on upstairs. One has her MA from Harvard, one is a personal secretary to a CEO and the other is a very successful sales rep. They all spent time and money on their looks while their husbands cheated with women who didn't.
It happens all the time. Men with beautiful wives, in my experience, seem more likely to cheat. I'd love to know why, (any takers on THAT question?) but in any case, these three women were incensed. And they were incensed as in "I'm going to throw a brick through that ugly harlot's picture window" incensed when they saw who their partners were cheating with.
Now mind you, two of these women went out and met other men right away--one was soured quite badly--so maintaining their looks paid off.
But I talked to the one husband when I went back to England for a visit. We met for lunch and that was when we had the conversation about why he picked a woman who is a 5 to his ex-wife's 10. (And she's a nice 10; not the hair-extension, fake nails and eyelashes kind of 10.)I always jokingly referred to his ex-wife as a "Bond girl."
And that was when he started talking about this other woman was less uptight about herself, her looks, her "value" in society, etc. Her strength was that she was herself and didn't give a shit what anyone else thought. And, you know, having seen her myself, I have no doubt he's telling the truth. She's definitely no looker, so she must have one hell of a personality.
I think we all crave certainty. As in "If I keep up my looks, he'll always find me sexy and won't leave." And the reality is he might leave anyway. That's no reason to let yourself go, but it is a reason to stop investing so much energy into staying pretty to please a man.
And it's especially true when you consider that most men worth having are attracted to women who actually have lives outside of work/the gym/or hair salon. I'm not sure you're actually getting that message. Read Shakespeare's Sonnet 130 if you want to know what I'm talking about.
ie at January 26, 2011 4:41 PM
Mike you should introduce your girlfriend to this fabulous tool that we in the states call "toilet paper." It will save her a lot of time and energy from having to shower after every time she goes to the bathroom. :)
Seriously though, I think it's a silly misconception that American women don't care about their appearance or attractiveness. The responses here should show you that the majority of women find LW's wife's behavior repulsive and taboo.
If you think about it, you're probably basing your opinion of foreigners off of the small sample of women that you know and want to date. I mean, you probably wouldn't even know that your GF was Paraguyan as opposed to, say, third-generation Hispanic-American if you hadn't initially found her attractive. Whereas you're likely basing your perceptions of Americans off of the people you see every day--and remember that 50% of the population is always going to be below average. Your opinion also might be skewed by your location, age, career choice, etc. Like your perception of what American women look like and how they take care of themselves is going to be very different if you live in NYC versus Miami Beach versus rural Mississippi.
Shannon at January 26, 2011 4:52 PM
Here's an interesting article about obesity in the United States. It seems just as many men are
letting themselves go too.
http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/1/6.full#sec-13
A short quotation:
More men than women were overweight or obese (68.8 percent vs. 61.6 percent in 2001–2002) (32).
They do have more up-to-date information, but this little sound-byte seemed apropos.
ie at January 26, 2011 5:36 PM
I have to laugh at the notion that feminism is somehow responsible for every rotten thing a woman has ever done to a man. Like before feminism, American women stayed sexy into their 80s and met their husbands at the door every day with a martini and a blowjob.
I'd love to introduce some of you to my Italian-American aunts and grandmothers (Italian as in born, raised and married in Italy, moved to America) who cursed at their husbands from down the block and started looking like Weebles sometime in their 40s. (They wobble but they don't fall down!) These women had 10 kids (not including the ones who died in childhood) and didn't have much time for primping and making sexy time.
I'm glad we have other options now, but let's not pretend pre-feminism America was this magical time when married people didn't take each other and their marriages for granted.
MonicaP at January 26, 2011 6:36 PM
Anathema, I've never been married so I have no first hand experience, just the thousands of article I've seen mentioning it.
Persoanlly I cnat athom why people arent having sex 24/7 - I certianly would if I ever won the lottery.
AS to why men and women cheat.
1. they arent getting what they need from their partner because their parnet is a jerk
2. they arent getting what they need from their partnere beacuse they've stopped communicating
3. They are no longer in love with their partner(why they just dont admit it and move on or come to an arragemnet I'll never know)
4. They themselves are jerks
lujlp at January 26, 2011 8:41 PM
I always shudder when I see a toilet in the same room as the bathroom shower, basin, etc. They only do it to make the plumbing easier. Or worse, as I've seen in many small apartments or townhouses, adjacent to the open plan kitchen/dining room (now there's a fun range of sound effects to entertain a dinner party).
Fortunately my house has the toilet where it belongs - separate, right down the back, past the laundry, away from any living areas.
Ltw at January 26, 2011 9:42 PM
A little off topic, but this article made me laugh
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/26/man-seeks-protection-sex-crazed-wife-germany/?test=latestnews
I have a healthy libido. I'm on my 3rd, and last husband. I tried marrying someone my own age, didn't work. Tried someone older, (14 yrs) didn't work. So I had decided to be a crazy old lady with 80 cats, when a really good friend of mine asked me "You know, since we make such a good team, why don't we try something a little more?"
We've been together 7 years, married 5. I take care of myself, and so does he. (It is a 2 way street)
It sounds to me like the LW'r got taken by the bait-n-switch. His wife put out the effort necessary to snag him, and then, when the ink was dry, decided she didn't have to try anymore.
I do my best to make sure I look good for my husband. I'll never be a 10, but when I get dressed up, I feel like one, and that confidence shows.
Kat at January 26, 2011 9:47 PM
*****Not to denigrate your experience, but I do think this sort of belief is as retro and potentially relationship-hurting as "women should train their husbands." (Of course, that said, if I could train my husband to put out every day, and twice on weekends and bank holidays, maybe I'd look into this "training" business.)
Maybe some men are unpleasant enough after marriage to turn women off, and vice versa, but in general, most people like sex. And just speaking from a physiological standpoint (leaving hang-ups, health issues, and whatnot out of it), women can have and enjoy more sex than men (due to capacity for multiple orgasms vs. male refractory period). Everyone's sex drive varies, and of course low-sex-drive and asexual people exist on both sides of the gender divide, but I've never met a physically healthy high-self-esteem woman who didn't enjoy getting it on with her partner.
I just think it's a sad comment on our culture that so many men seem to think women don't like sex. Seems to lead to a lot of misunderstandings and frustration. (And shaming of women who do enjoy a nice roll in the hay as somehow "unnatural.") My 2.7 cents American.*****
THIS. Trust me, guys, there ARE women out there who enjoy sex. A lot.
Daghain at January 26, 2011 10:35 PM
I don't know where this woman learned how chemistry between males and females work, but it was obviously on some other planet. Us ladies can't look smokin' hot all the time, and it's great to know you can run around in your sweats and a ponytail on a lazy day now and then, but good grief. This lady takes "comfortable" to an extreme. Maybe LW should go without a shower for a week or so, then "C'mon, baby! Let's get our stink on!" Maybe she would get the hint after getting up close and personal with some pungent, sweaty man-pits.
Jessica at January 27, 2011 12:56 AM
@kat and jessica: you might want to take a look at my little blurb above about obesity and gender in the US.
More men than women are obese, which begs the question of who's putting up with more physical unpleasantness from their partners...?
ie at January 27, 2011 4:51 AM
Men with beautiful wives, in my experience, seem more likely to cheat. I'd love to know why, (any takers on THAT question?)
ie, I would suggest it's because they're good at charming women. That's how they got the beautiful wives in the first place. When you think about it, it makes sense - if they can get one, there's a fair chance they can get another. Bluntly, you're looking for the answer to the question "why do dogs lick their balls", "because they can".
incensed when they saw who their partners were cheating with
Women aren't the only ones who go for a "bit of rough" sometimes. Refer Tiger Woods for more details.
I'm definitely not one of them - I was horrified by the photos that came out on that and thought to myself "surely he could do so much better". But there's no accounting for taste.
Ltw at January 27, 2011 6:19 AM
@ ie….
I am still not finding the fault with the women who were cheated on. Like I said, they likely focused on the looks aspect of the mistresses because that is the only thing they could focus on. It’s not like they could actually get to know the women themselves and say “Oh she’s really nice. No wonder he left me. She has a great personality.” As is the case with most women who’ve been cheated on, the mistress is often the target of their aggression because it’s hard for the jilted lovers to put the blame where it belongs; on the cheating spouse. Their husbands are the ones who cheated in the end. It doesn’t matter how either party looked. Trying to defend it by saying “Their wives were lookers but boring. The girl he cheated with is a dog but what a personality!” is just another way of condoning cheating behavior. (and really, how great can her personality really be if she has to sleep with married men to get any action?)
It very well may be that the wives only focused on their looks, but that doesn’t mean that cheating is acceptable. And, honestly, when you say that two of them were able to find new partners almost immediately, that indicates that they must have something to offer if they were snapped up that easily afterwards. If they were THAT boring, I would imagine it would be hard for them to find and keep men interested. How about we just go with, “The husband is an ass and cheated because he could”? I’d also be willing to bet that at least one of those men in your example is going to get bored with his mistress too because she won’t be exciting anymore after they’ve settled into a routine. That is almost always the case.
“I think we all crave certainty. As in "If I keep up my looks, he'll always find me sexy and won't leave." And the reality is he might leave anyway. That's no reason to let yourself go, but it is a reason to stop investing so much energy into staying pretty to please a man.
And it's especially true when you consider that most men worth having are attracted to women who actually have lives outside of work/the gym/or hair salon. I'm not sure you're actually getting that message. Read Shakespeare's Sonnet 130 if you want to know what I'm talking about.”
Actually, I get the message very clear. I am not really sure why you assume I don’t just because I believe in looking attractive for my husband. My whole point was that while a woman should still be who she is, I also believe that she should still try to be attractive for her man. I also think that a man should try to be attractive for his woman. Love and lust are two different things. I want my husband to love me for who I am, but lust for me physically as well because being physically attracted to your partner is important in a relationship, whether or not people want to admit it. And in order for him to lust for me, I need to give him something to lust after. PIain and simple. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with thinking that. In fact, I actually think that you and I are pretty much in the same mindset about all of this, so I am not really sure why you think that I don’t seem to “get it”.
I am not one of those women who think that if my husband finds me sexy he won’t leave. I am not some stupid gym bunny. If he wanted to leave, he would leave, regardless of whether I am a hotty or not. Fortunately, my husband and I share not only great communication but we have great sex (which I fully believe is only great because our communication is great). So, all in all, I am not that worried. Our marriage isn’t perfect (who’s is?) but him cheating is not something I am worried about to be honest.
I am also not one of those women who don’t have a life outside the gym. I do. A very full one, and sometimes it doesn’t include my husband. I am fiercely independent, and extremely self-reliant. As I said in my post, I have my own friends, my own life, and my own interests, outside of my marriage. I am very capable of taking care of myself. I did it for years before meeting my husband, and have no doubt that I could manage just fine without my husband should it come to that. And he without me. I was an actress in NYC before we married. I made the choice to leave NYC to be with him under the condition that I will continue to do theatre. I now work for a local professional theatre group, on top of my regular day job (the one that pays the bills). This is something I am extremely passionate about. I also have a very active social life that doesn’t revolve around him. I made it known to my husband before we even married that if he ever even asks me to give up theatre, or tries to stifle my social life, then I would leave him, and he knows I will follow through.
My husband is man enough to let me be my own person. Our marriage is actually very strong because of that. Neither of us is “dependent” on the other. We could live without each other, we just choose not to. It may not sound like the most romantic thing in the world but it works for us. Me being a hotty is just an added bonus to our life together.
My initial post was my way of illiterating how I keep the fires burning at home. Of course I don’t prance around in lingerie (all the time anyway), spraying Chanel No 5 everywhere and locking bathroom doors when I have to do #2. But I also don’t laze around in sweats, and subject him to farts either. Me squatting over the bowl is not an attractive image and I don’t think by not wanting to do that in front of him makes us any less intimate. I enjoy looking nice, and I enjoy letting him admire me (and frankly, he’s got plenty to admire and I don’t think it shallow of me to say that). Do I veg occasionally in comfy pants and no makeup? Absolutely. On my off days, I can be found sitting on the couch catching up on tivo, but, it’s not a regular occurance. Most of my time is spent either at work, at the theatre, out with friends, or with my husband enjoying time together. And while my husband says loves me just as much in those casual moments, he admits that he loves when I make the extra effort to look nice for him because he feels special. What is wrong with that? Is it shallow of me to enjoy watching my husband check me out? Why would I want to deliberately put an unattractive image of me in his head if avoidable? There are going to be plenty of times for him to see me in less than attractive states, and he’s already cleaned vomit off my shirt on one occasion. Why on earth does he need to see me pooping? And why on earth do I need to fart to prove my comfort level with him? I am sure my husband would much rather smell my perfume than what came out of my ass.
My other point was why would I want to treat him so rudely by subjecting him to my bodily functions if I can avoid it? Just because we are married does not mean that we should not still use our manners. He is just as deserving of politeness as anyone else is, if not more so because his feelings are more important to me than a randome persons. How we treat our loved ones in private speaks more about our relationships then how we treat them in public. If I am not willing to make the effort for him when no one is watching, then it means that I don’t care as much about him as I like people to believe. Not deliberately subjecting him to my unpleasant smells, and trying to look attractive when reasonably possible, is one small way I can show him that I care about him and his sensibilities.
I think that is actually where a lot of marriages fail these days. Couples are far too casual with each other. They forget to use their manners with each other and it causes a lot of hurt feelings, miscommunications, and passive aggressive behavior and that can affect their sex lives. I think THAT’S what went wrong in your cheating cases; not that the wives spent too much time at the salon.
Sabrina at January 27, 2011 9:01 AM
@Sabrina, I'm not into long posts where people focus mostly on themselves. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I deal with enough big egos in my job.
Otherwise, as Shakespeare would say, "Methinks the lady, she protesteth over much."
ie at January 27, 2011 9:37 AM
@Ltw: the women I was talking about wouldn't necessarily qualify as "a bit of rough," a la Tiger Woods. They weren't over-sexualized or cheap; they were just plain and apparently plain-spoken.
The "5" that my friend's ex went for for example, was about 5'1", 200 lbs and looked like a kindergarten teacher.
She was an archivist for the corporation the man worked at, and he met her while she was putting together its official history. However, despite her appearance she had a reputation for not suffering fools gladly and was unafraid of speaking her mind to her higher ups.
It was her ballsy behaviour that got this man's attention. And this was in contrast to his first wife's demeanour, which was upper-middle class polite and a bit frosty compared to this woman.
I think both women thought highly of themselves, but for different reasons. The first wife valued her appearance, class and background, while the second wife (which the mistress eventually became) valued herself for her mind, her capabilities and accomplishments.
I was in my 40s as I watched, with avid interest, some of these dramas unfold and it was surprising because it upended some of my own preconceptions about men and relationships. But then, that's the difference between theory and reality.
ie at January 27, 2011 10:15 AM
@ ie.
"How poor are they that have not patience."
I don't really care all that much about what an annoymous poster on a blog thinks about me or my marriage so it's cool.
Besides, we were basically saying the same thing anyway so I don't understand where your statement about me "not getting it" came from. But whatever... by tomorrow we'll have moved on so no sweat here...
And actually, the quote is "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
But hey, I am just a dumb gym bunny so I guess I wasn't suppossed to notice that you quoted Queen Gertrude wrong in an attempt to insult me. But that's okay, lots of people do so you aren't alone in your ignorance.
Sabrina at January 27, 2011 10:43 AM
I'm incredibly curious as to how far the letter writer has let himself go with regards to manners and dress at home.
Generally, when accusing a partner of crimes like this, the accuser takes care to point out that *s/he* doesn't crap with the door open or ever fart in their loved one's presence or lounge around in sweat pants, so I'm curious about which of these activities he also participates in.
Also, this?
"I don't expect her to dress up, just to try to look a little cute."
When men say this, they tend to grossly underestimate the amount of effort they're actually asking for. Men typically want the appearance of effortless beauty.
Their idea of a woman 'just trying to look a little cute' is usually more in line with Megan Fox in yoga pants with full makeup and artfully tousled hair. See? They don't expect her to dress up! She's wearing yoga pants! Duh!
I'm extremely skeptical about the accuracy of his description. Open sores every night from picking zits? Open sores? Really? Is she on meth? She takes a shit and farts before trying to initiate intimacy on a regular basis? Maybe I'm naive, but I don't know a lot of people who think "Wow, that was an epic monster dump I just took...boy, it really put me in the mood. Come here, baby!"
Methinks he is exaggerating more than a little.
Twice he has mentioned her lack of confidence, which I find interesting. He simultaneously wants her to feel juuuust insecure enough to seek his approval of her appearance and confident enough to be 'sexy'.
I don't know. I'm just not buying his story.
I'd love to hear her end:
"I get home from work at 9pm, and I'm exhausted. All I want to do is put on some comfortable clothes and put my feet up, and my husband complains that I'm not putting in enough 'effort'. This from a man sitting on the couch in an undershirt covered in Cheetoh dust. Also, I'm sick and tired of him dutch ovening me every goddamned night and then getting all prissy over the fact that I, too, fart. Jesus, I practically need a gas mask every time the man has a burrito for lunch, so I'm sure as hell not going to get up and leave the room every time I have to cut one."
afurrica at January 27, 2011 11:38 AM
"they were just plain and apparently plain-spoken."
I wasn't all that serious ie, just responding to your challenge! But you've put your finger on the other reason men (or women for that matter) cheat on attractive partners, other than because they can - because sometimes someone else can offer something other than beauty. I want someone hot as much as the next guy - but if it comes with an annoying personality and awful sex I'll take plain any day. Fortunately I've been lucky and managed to get the best of both worlds most of the time.
But I've seen the same thing, people going for partners you can't imagine they would be interested in. As you say, it makes you rethink your preconceptions. Generalisations are useful, but it's important to realise they are general, not specific.
Ltw at January 28, 2011 1:26 AM
How funny that I came across this today, just after having blogged about a new law the govt of Malawi is going to enforce on no more public farting:
I Will Not Be Going To Malawi Anytime Soon
LarryD at January 28, 2011 6:34 AM
@Ltw; the situation I described reminded me of Charles and Camilla...as surprising as it seemed at the time--his dumping Diana for Camilla--I do kind of see now why she and Charles are togther.
ie at January 28, 2011 8:12 AM
ie Says:
"Men with beautiful wives, in my experience, seem more likely to cheat. I'd love to know why, (any takers on THAT question?)"
You pose an interesting question here and I'd like to take a shot at answering it.
First of all, since we are just going by your personal experience I am not going to comment on how much or how little it reflects the actual reality of cheating. I shall simply assume for the purposes of this discussion that your statement is correct. Secondly, I shall assume that your appraisal of their beauty is accurate even though it is entirely possible that it does not match what men would consider beautiful. Many times for example women will select one woman in a crowd as being the most attractive while men will select another.
Now that this is out of the way let me make a few educated guesses here.
1 - The men with beautiful wives are probably highly desirable and have above average social status
2 - The beautiful wives were attracted to these men at least in part due to their high status
Now educated guess #1 would indicate that the men in question probably have a lot of options romantically, since they managed to attract and marry a “10” on the beauty scale they surely have to have a great deal going for them which would make them attractive to most women.
Educated guess #2 suggests that qualities such as integrity, honesty, and faithfulness did not necessarily rank as high on the list for the women in question as did social status.
Clearly integrity, honesty, and faithfulness did not rank especially high on the lists of the women with whom these men had affairs.
So in answer to your question. If women in general, and beautiful women in particular, are selecting men primarily because of their social status while qualities such as integrity, honestly, and faithfulness rank somewhere lower on the list; and if men with high social status have a plethora of romantic options; why exactly should we be surprised when these men are unfaithful?
Only when the qualities of integrity, honesty, and faithfulness rank higher on a woman’s list than factors such as wealth and job position should we be shocked if those men cheat on their wives.
It is akin to being aghast that ones friend stole their money when the primary way one chose that friend was because they had the best drug connections.
Reality at January 28, 2011 9:56 AM
Whistledick, you're way off.
Loving someone and wanting to have sex with them are two very different things. If a woman picks her zits, shits in front of you, and rips a large fart before coming in for a kiss, that is better birth control than any condom could ever be. If you love someone, that doesn't mean your cock has to stay like a rock when the farts go flying or the zits start popping. If you want unconditional love, fine, but there is no such thing as unconditional lust.
The big problem here is that she doesn't care how much it bothers him. She just wants it to not impact her. The words "Selfish crude bitch" come immediately to mind.
I don't think he is stockpiling reasons to leave her, I think if anything he's struggling to find reasons to stay. Look carefully at what he writes "good person", "reassurance that she's really attractive", and he points out what does not attract him in the hopes she won't do those things.
The first two alone suggest that he appreciates her personality, and he does his best to reassure her, add the last to it and you have a man who genuinely wants to get it up and get it on. But it doesn't sound like she's trying for the same.
Robert at January 28, 2011 9:58 AM
@ie - I agree, Charles and Camilla are the perfect example. As far as I know (royal watching is not my favourite habit) they are happy together. He's the classic example of someone who had to find an 'acceptable' wife - the same thing plays out in less obvious ways in any family, like my father telling me over dinner years ago that the angel that is my ex was not good enough for me, not educated enough, etc. Of course I told him to get stuffed.
Even if I personally think that Camilla went a few too many rounds with the ugly stick and that Charles is an idiot (politically I mean, organic, green, blah blah), I've got to give them both credit for standing up and saying "this is what we want" in the face of enormous pressure and criticism. Good luck to them.
Ltw at January 28, 2011 8:33 PM
Robert,
It's possible that I'm way off. However, I'm assuming that the letter writer is exaggerating more than a little bit. I also concede that if she's like this all the time versus every so often, that's an issue.
There are two possibilities here. One is that this guy is nit-picking and should relax his ideas of "ideal" feminine behavior. The other is that he's married to a repulsive woman. Either one could be true.
I like your point about unconditional lust.
whistleDick at January 28, 2011 9:07 PM
@Ltw: you've got my sympathy where your father and his comments are concerned. I got a bit of that from my mom growing up and I found it difficult.
@Robert. I agree with Whistledick and some of the other posters here when it comes to the LW's exaggeration. And if he was really interested in working things out he'd be talking to her, not writing into a column like this looking for support.
I mean, let's face it, if you write into this column saying you've got a slovenly wife, you're guaranteed to get sympathy. There are more than a few posters here who are going to respond the way you did and call the woman a "Selfish crude bitch", right?
And Affurica's point about the meth and the "open sores" is true. It's exactly what I thought when I read that line. I mean, I squeeze my blackheads too once in a while and I don't get open sores from doing it.
Even if she does have more serious acne, how about gently suggesting she get a facial once in a while and be kind to her skin instead? That would solve the problem in a much sweeter way. But then that would require that the LW actually look for a solution instead of just complaining.
I think what Whistledick was getting at is that there are different levels of acceptance and openness between couples and among families when dealing with things like bodily functions. And for some men, it isn't going to affect how they feel about their wives sexually.
I certainly know a few men like this. These are usually the same men who are in the delivery room with their wives, supporting them unconditionally. The fact that these couples usually go on to have second or third kids, tells me their sex life hasn't been disrupted by any fastidiousness on the part of the husband.
ie at January 29, 2011 7:26 AM
Laughing hysterically here! Tears streaming down my cheeks, gasping for air ... oh my sides hurt. Wasn't this just a joke?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@crella posted:
"Thanks. Now I have to clean the wine I snorted out of my nose off my monitor. :D"
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Amy you are wonderfully hilarious.
OMG... so funny!!!
lol at January 29, 2011 9:29 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1832675">comment from lolThank you so much!
Amy Alkon at January 29, 2011 9:35 AM
Correction: I quoted Daghain's comment and not crella's. Apologies to both.
lol at January 29, 2011 9:49 AM
Test
Gregg Sutter at January 29, 2011 10:44 AM
I think anyone who even uses the word "training" with respect to their spouse or boy/girlfriend, should be immediately divorced or dumped, and deserves to be single forever. Honestly that's so f-cking childish.
"He needs to dump her and find someone who respects him enough to look good for him. Maybe a foreign woman."
Ditto that. Actually now that I think about it, of all my relationships, it was my (sexy) Chinese girlfriend that always made the most effort to look good.
Presumably he loves her and wants to find a solution, so I honestly don't know how to broach this in a way that will actually work. Being negative and confrontational probably won't help. Using positive reinforcement - e.g. when she does make some effort, compliment that - might help a little.
The woman also needs to dump her pathetic friends. Otherwise if she stops trying to 'train' him she'll continually have to be embarrassed amongst them that she makes an effort for her man. There is peer pressure for her to not lift a finger, as if that is somehow a good thing.
"It seems just as many men are letting themselves go too."
Yes, I think it's equally disgusting when a man lets himself go, and I never will. When I met my now wife, one of the very first things I told her - direct and straight - was that if she ever let herself get fat, it would be over, no questions asked. Call me shallow but honestly, fat just isn't attractive, fat women don't even show up on my mental radar, and I am not going to spend the rest of my life with someone who can't even be bothered not to be an ugly blimp for me. I've made it clear I find that unattractive.
I also absolutely in no way am going to be 'trained' and make that very clear; occasionally I hear her get the usual bad advice parroted from (usually ugly and/or single) friends about how she's supposed to 'train' me, I make it clear things don't work that way.
Anyway, the obesity problem would be less of an issue if almost the entire community of health advisers weren't giving out terrible advice (to eat lots of carbs).
Lobster at January 29, 2011 12:01 PM
"The cheating, which I could have predicted years before it was discovered, surprised no one. It was if by catering so much to their husbands, these put themselves into weakened positions and lost power in the relationship."
If a guy is prone to cheating he will probably eventually cheat. But I can assure you, keeping yourself looking good is not going to make it MORE likely, it will make it less likely, and it will make it take longer before they do stray. Some men seem more 'wired' to cheat but the happier a guy is at home the less likely it is that he will. If your friends had not tried as hard, their husbands would probably just have cheated sooner.
Lobster at January 29, 2011 12:09 PM
"When I met my now wife, one of the very first things I told her - direct and straight - was that if she ever let herself get fat, it would be over, no questions asked."
I'm 5'8, size 4, 25 inch waist, eat high-protein low-carb vegetarian, and work out at least an hour every day. I care way more about whether I personally am in shape than any guy possibly could, and anyone who knows me well can probably figure that out. If someone told me it was over if I got fat, I'd think very seriously about dumping him myself because clearly he never paid enough attention to figure out that I'm not the type of person to let myself go. And yes, I would also like the assurance of being with someone who wouldn't kick me to the curb because I gained 20 pounds due to bedrest or an accident or some other circumstance outside my control. as I assume most of us would.
I'm not attracted to fat men either and would never date a guy who wasn't muscular and in shape, but my approach is to seek out someone who enjoys working out and eating well in and of itself, and assume that aspect of their personality isn't going to change just because they're in a relationship. I think that's more respectful and ultimately more effective than issuing ultimatums.
Shannon at January 29, 2011 1:43 PM
I dunno Lobster. I've seen both men and women (who didn't strike me as "cheaters") get grandiose after landing a good looking partner. It's as if they've elevated their own status and the next thing you know, they're eyeing members of the opposite sex as if they're all fair game.
There's also a lot of praise for Asian women from some posters here. I don't want to cast aspersions, but I've seen something like the above dynamic at work there too.
That is, I've seen some Asian women land a wealthy, high status man and within a short period of time start looking for a bit on the side.
I do have a colleague (whom I've written about here) who seems to be addicted to these kind of women. I found out about this addiction of his when he came into work wearing a leather coat that would easily cost a month's wages. When I raised my eyebrows at his mention that it was a gift, he started telling me about these women and his serial relationships with them.
I do think there are some alpha male types who are going to cheat no matter what, but sometimes an ego boost--ie a woman who is slavishly devoted to staying beautiful for her man--is enough to create that kind of monster. I'm not suggesting that women let themselves go, but just that they carefully sidestep the slavish aspect of it in whatever way they can.
ie at January 29, 2011 1:54 PM
"I'm not attracted to fat men either and would never date a guy who wasn't muscular and in shape, but my approach is to seek out someone who enjoys working out and eating well in and of itself, and assume that aspect of their personality isn't going to change just because they're in a relationship. I think that's more respectful and ultimately more effective than issuing ultimatums."
Most people aren't actually simply one extreme or the other, and there is no valid, rational reason to pick only people at the extremes. Most people can 'go either way'.
"I'd think very seriously about dumping him myself "
That would be stupid - what if he was a great guy, and otherwise everything you're looking for? Oh well, dump him.
"And yes, I would also like the assurance of being with someone who wouldn't kick me to the curb because I gained 20 pounds due to bedrest or an accident or some other circumstance outside my control. as I assume most of us would."
Nice one, always good to debate with people who attack what you *actually* said instead of making up a straw man completely out of thin air, and attacking that.
Lobster at January 29, 2011 2:42 PM
". I think that's more respectful and ultimately more effective than issuing ultimatums"
And it's not an "ultimatum". It's simply a statement of fact of preference. It's not a choice I make that I'm not attracted to overweight women. Should I have lied and said "don't worry honey I won't mind if you get fat and will still be just as attracted to you"? That would be incredibly dumb.
And many men and women DO let themselves go after marriage, are you claiming that it's always possible to predict who will and who won't? I wager that if it was, it wouldn't happen so much.
Lobster at January 29, 2011 2:44 PM
You're claiming I should've dumped her and found someone that I could "trust" not to get fat. That is incredibly stupid - fallacy of false choice - those aren't the only options.
Lobster at January 29, 2011 2:46 PM
Maybe you pulled if off better in real life than I'm picturing in my head (and it sounds like you did because you're still together!) but in general I think it's sort of an insulting presumption to make. It's like telling your new employee that if they start stealing company furniture they'll be fired--if you feel the need to spell that out than why would you have hired them in the first place?
Shannon at January 29, 2011 7:06 PM
@Shannon: I think a lot of men who purposely opt away from North American women often do so out of a sense of disappointment and, as I think Lobster's words belie, an underlying sense of hostility.
I think the hostility is what you're reacting to, as I believe a lot of women would. For example, I think if we went to the country where Lobster's wife is from and spoke the same way about the women living there, the women living there wouldn't like it either. They would find it insulting, in the same way North American women do.
Whether this is fair or not, there is still the perception out there that North American men who marry foreign women are often doing so because they can't get anyone from their own background.
It's unfair since I know a lot of lovely foreign women who've married Canadians, for example, but even they will say that they feel that slight sense of critical appraisal, even from “open-minded” people.
I had a bit of an experience with this too. When I was younger, my father used to host musicians from his homeland (which was still under communist rule) and my mother absolutely forbade me from mingling with any of the young men (I was living away from home already, so it wasn't difficult anyway).
She was adamant because she didn't want me to be seen as being so desperate as to marry a "passport" husband. To her it would have been shameful and the source of gossip for their ethnic community.
That attitude is concentrated in some ethnic communities, but I don't believe is confined to them. A colleague of mine married a foreign woman--and a very accomplished one at that--a few years ago and even he has mentioned that he's come up against this attitude. In his case, it was a real love job--he wasn't looking for a foreign wife specifically, but the perception that he married down still lingers.
Men like Lobster and Mike, who are so rejecting of American women, are being rejecting for a reason. And whatever that reason is, I don't think it's productive to take it seriously or personally. Their voluntary exclusion from certain marriage markets is beneficial for everyone.
ie at January 30, 2011 7:22 AM
"Men like Lobster and Mike, who are so rejecting of American women"
Wow, again, attack something about me that is false and completely made-up and pulled totally out of the air. This is obviously a habit with you, you've done it multiple times just in one thread now. It's kind of pointless saying anything if your only response is to make up completely false straw men over and over.
Lobster at January 30, 2011 10:54 AM
"It's like telling your new employee that if they start stealing company furniture they'll be fired--if you feel the need to spell that out than why would you have hired them in the first place?"
That's just silly - there's NO way HR can tell who is and who isn't going to steal, and every company of reasonable size has theft in it --- and that's not because HR thought "I think this person is going to steal, but I'll hire them anyway". People tend to hide that sort of thing well.
Likewise, women or men looking to get married obviously don't advertise the fact they plan to let themselves go once they have the ring - it's a fact they go out of their way to hide. If they didn't, it wouldn't exactly work would it? "Hey honey, I want to marry you but just so you know, I plan to let myself get fat once we're married" - uh, yeah right, happens all the time.
I'm glad you feel you are such an amazing judge of character that you would never be fooled. The reality is if it were possible to judge people that well, then it would be possible to prevent theft in a company at the HR/hiring level. It isn't, and it isn't.
Lobster at January 30, 2011 10:59 AM
"Maybe you pulled if off better in real life than I'm picturing in my head (and it sounds like you did because you're still together!)"
And yes, obviously the way I broached it was not quite the same tone as told here. And yes, we're still together, and very happily so - she is a wonderful woman.
Lobster at January 30, 2011 11:00 AM
Lobster, no one's attacking you, simply observing. Calm down.
ie at January 30, 2011 11:52 AM
You're not "observing", you're making things up entirely out of your imagination. There's a difference.
Lobster at January 30, 2011 1:04 PM
A question about farting, burping and such: Why is it okay for the man to do it and not the woman? C'mon, you all know it's true!
Rozita at January 30, 2011 4:35 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/home-is-where-t-1.html#comment-1833499">comment from RozitaA question about farting, burping and such: Why is it okay for the man to do it and not the woman?
Eeuw. It's not okay, and the man in my life sure doesn't do that. It's crass to do that in front of another person and unwise to do it with a woman you want to want to have sex with you. And I'm not with a crass or unwise man.
Amy Alkon at January 30, 2011 5:13 PM
A question about farting, burping and such: Why is it okay for the man to do it and not the woman? C'mon, you all know it's true!
Sometimes farts and burps happen. I don't expect him to grovel if he lets one slip. It's more about effort.
MonicaP at January 31, 2011 7:13 AM
First post!!
kaleb at February 1, 2011 3:10 PM
"Why is it okay for the man to do it and not the woman? C'mon, you all know it's true!"
Maybe I'm an exception (I don't know as I've never lived with a man) but I never fart in front of others, least of all my SO. I've done it maybe three times by accident in the last 10 years. I also don't find jokes or 'funny conversations' about farts funny at all, just childish. Not even when drunk. I prefer to think about anal-related body functions as little as humanly possible - ew.
I did have one girlfriend though - briefly - who happily let rip loudly and regularly, multiple times a day, and thought it was funny. The rest were well-behaved.
Lobster at February 1, 2011 4:47 PM
This all reminds me of this book that I read as well as the problem that led to my divorce. First, the book. "Stop Calling Him Honey and Start Having Sex." Interviewers always concentrate on the Honey part the most but the other parts of the book are just as important. One section is about women who have decided that making a chocolate swirl inside of a toilet bowl with their butt, in front of their men, is the ultimate sign that you can share anything with your man and have reached a relationship peak. But the book goes on to explain why some things just shouldn't come out of our mouths or our butts in front of this other person.
As for me, I was in a relationship with a woman who said things like, "Love me. Love my poop." She was also a self described foody who said things like "I love food more than I love sex". (But her sister was the nympho who loves sex more than she loves food. Darn ... I got the wrong sister.) So, after a while of this, I stopped seeing her as a woman to love / lust. Instead, I just saw her as a 24 / 7, feeding / shitting station. A stomach that needed to be filled and an intestine that needed to be emptied so that the process could begin anew.
David at May 18, 2011 7:22 PM
I prefer this! It's soooo fascinating!
Miranda Gaub at August 8, 2011 9:17 AM
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