"I'll Have The Scrimp Cocktail!"
I'd love your take on a bizarre first date. I suggested happy hour drinks, but he wanted to take me to dinner, and picked a really nice restaurant. When we were ordering, he suggested we play "a fun game," which entailed closing our eyes and picking a number (the entrees were numbered). I said okay, then he said I couldn't pick numbers between 20 and 25 because those entrees were expensive. Completely disenchanted, I opened my eyes and chose something cheap. Later, the bill came, and sat and sat. He finally picked it up, muttered audibly about who had what, and eventually put his card out. Obviously, I turned down his request for a second date.
--Not Into "Games"
Just think of the "fun game" he had in store for date two -- probably something like "Close your eyes, Babe, and pretend we aren't under a bridge waiting in line for free soup."
It's a tough economy, and people are increasingly worried that they'll be dining on Fancy Feast casserole at 80 (or 45). More than ever, men need to be wary of gold diggers. But, this guy had good intel that you aren't one of them. The girl who suggests happy hour drinks is not the girl who orders the lobster dinner -- and then adds, "Oh, and can I get another one of those to go?"
He's the one who chose to up the price tag of getting to know you. The reasonable assumption would be that he was inviting you, not you and your VISA card. Assuming he didn't lose his job between "Pick you up at 8?" and appetizers, he's either a pathological cheapskate trying to pass himself off as Mr. Big Spender or is convinced that all women are out to milk 'n' bilk him. Either way, a date with him seems like a twist on "L'Oreal -- because you're worth it." His motto: "Don't even think of incurring the $2 substitution fee for onion rings -- because you're not."
The ironic thing is, even if you'd picked one of the pricier entrees, how much more would it have cost him...$10 plus tip? He ended up spending a whole bunch of money on a girl who now never wants to see him again -- charming as some may find it when a guy mutters over the check, "Let's see, you had that extra packet of ketchup --that's probably two cents right there..."
The ironic thing is, even if you'd picked one of the pricier entrees, how much more would it have cost him...$10 plus tip? He ended up spending a whole bunch of money on a girl who now never wants to see him again
I agree - he's saved 10 bucks at the cost of wasting 100. There's absolutely nothing wrong with signaling that you don't always spend up big - "Have whatever you want tonight, I want to treat you" - which says I like you and want you to feel special but it won't always be like this. That sort of thing is easy enough to convey. If they don't get the hint, there's time enough to sort out the gold diggers on dates two and three, the ones that aren't will start offering to pay by then.
Ltw at January 18, 2011 9:08 PM
Wow! Look at this experience as a great story for your friends.
In a perfect world there would be a special untraceable number you could call post-date. Later in the week a small "hit squad" of masked and caped women would waylay the guy in a secluded alley, hold him down and tattoo "lousy date" on his forehead thus warning off the rest of us.
catspyjamas at January 18, 2011 9:33 PM
Later in the week a small "hit squad" of masked and caped women would waylay the guy in a secluded alley, hold him down and
I liked that comment up to that point...
Ltw at January 18, 2011 10:19 PM
The one who invites pays. Since he's the one who upped the ante, he pays for it.
And if he's not happy about the cost, he needs to remember that this was his idea and do his level best to maintain a facade of cheerfulness about it.
What I find remarkable about this is that he didn't even try to look like he was okay with this arrangement.
What's odd about this is that even after ruling out the two most expensive items, he still expects to pay for at least part of the tab. If she were paying for her meal, shouldn't she be allowed to order what she wants, including number 20 and 25?
Even though he chose the restaurant, successfully talked her out of the two most expensive entrees, he still wants her to pay for her meal. That's cheap.
If he was concerned about the cost, what he should have done is let her order first, and if she goes for something expensive, he could have gone for the cheapest item on the menu. At least then he wouldn't have made his cheapness so blatant.
Patrick at January 18, 2011 10:43 PM
If he was actually expecting her to pay her share, what difference would it have made if she had ordered one of the expensive numbers between 20 and 25?
Sue at January 19, 2011 3:28 AM
"Wow! Look at this experience as a great story for your friends."
Yeah, I agree with Catspyjamas -- put this experience into the "well, it could have been worse" category. And I'll bet a Pop Tart the poor fellow can't figure out why LW doesn't want to go out with him again!
Old RPM Daddy at January 19, 2011 7:06 AM
If she were paying for her meal, shouldn't she be allowed to order what she wants, including number 20 and 25?
Good catch, Patrick. It was like the guy got cheaper and cheaper as the evening wore on.
Pirate Jo at January 19, 2011 7:47 AM
I said okay, then he said I couldn't pick numbers between 20 and 25 because those entrees were expensive.
And right then, I would have excused myself and left. What the hell kind of "game" is that??
O.O
Flynne at January 19, 2011 8:43 AM
How hard is it to come up with a creative first date that doesn't cost and arm and a leg, thus signaling to the woman involved that you're not a walking ATM, but care enough to try to find something she'd enjoy? I think dinner's a lousy first date anyway; too... I dunno, too formal. To much staring across the table at each other, trying to make conversation.
After she divorced my dad (and not a moment too soon), my mom dated a widower for several years, until sadly dementia set in for her. I was impressed with the first date he asked her on -- he took her to a fund-raising breakfast for an organization he supported (thus giving her the idea that he was a philanthropic, concerned kind of guy,) then took her to a big art show down at Chicago's Navy Pier. Inexpensive, fun, and made conversation easy.
Go hiking. Go to a museum. Go to a local event. DO something together.
Dana at January 19, 2011 8:56 AM
I don't think first dates need to be terribly creative or expensive. You're trying to figure out whether you like like each other enough to do it again. A bar for a few drinks or a coffeehouse is fine. It's fast, cheap and it gives you the opportunity to comment on your surroundings when/if conversation dies.
MonicaP at January 19, 2011 9:48 AM
I agree with Dana & MonicaP - must it be dinner? And frankly, if YOU chose the venue, no bitching that you can't afford it, period.
I always offer to split (or pickup) the check, and I don't think men are cheap for taking me up on that offer (some of my friends offer as a "test" to see if they will).
The guys that worry me are the ones who pull out the calculator & figure out down to the penny who ate what & well you drank more of the bottle of wine than I did & ate one of the prawns in my appetizer, etc. That reeks of cheap.
hahahathud at January 19, 2011 10:51 AM
Well, it looks like we may have an answer for the "Flight At The End Of The Tunnel" LW.
sofar at January 19, 2011 11:22 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/ill-have-the-sc.html#comment-1825617">comment from hahahathudEven a woman who isn't a gold digger doesn't want a cheap guy. I had a boyfriend who made less money than I was, but he wasn't cheap, and because of that, it was my pleasure to always try to engineer it so I paid when we went to less cheap restaurants.
Amy Alkon at January 19, 2011 11:35 AM
Was this a blind date? Had they met before or just online? My take is that he might've been willing to spring for the expensive meal when he thought she was hottie, or that they would have great chemistry, but perhaps, once she showed up, or the date wasn't going well, he changed his mind, deciding she wasn't worth the money he'd be laying out. Cold, but that's the way some people are.
lovelysoul at January 19, 2011 1:25 PM
Obviously, this guy thinks the dollar has a future. Myself? I'm gonna roll 'em, honey! Eat a cow if you want, 'cause we might all be in that soup line tomorrow.
Graty Slapchop at January 19, 2011 1:46 PM
As a vegetarian (except fish) who eats low-carb, I'm already really limited in what I can order at an average restaurant. There's usually only one or two dishes that I would even eat anyway, and if one of them wasn't in the acceptable range I would probably just walk out and save the douchebag the cost of my meal altogether. Similarly, if I order salmon while you have a hamburger it's not because I'm a golddigger but because that's probably my only option.
What's ironic is if this is his strategy for screening out golddiggers, it's a pretty bad one. Not only does he turn off the normal women, but he doesn't actually identify the "golddiggers" until he's already committed to paying for their meal, albeit an inexpensive one.
Shannon at January 19, 2011 1:58 PM
The one who invites pays. Since he's the one who upped the ante, he pays for it.
That's right. This guy managed to come off as controlling, cheap, and incompetent in one stroke because he tripped all over that basic etiquette.
I'm sympathetic to the fact that dating is expensive. It's not difficult to spend several hundred dollars on a date. That's why you want to gauge the costs appropriately. Going to an expensive restaurant on a first date typically isn't warranted. It can actually send the wrong message, because it suggests that you're trying too hard. IMO the fancy restaurant is something that's better reserved for when you want to convey that you see her as more than a casual date.
Also lovelysoul may be onto something. If he was willing to pay initially, but then seemed to change his mind, it's probably because he realized that he wasn't getting anywhere with her, or didn't want to.
Jack at January 19, 2011 2:10 PM
@ Shannon: Thanks for immediately saying you eat fish. Most of my Brit fiends who are like you say they're a pescatrain. It would be great if you considered that. I don't want to seem picky, but I've had some misunderstandings where people hear vegetarian, don't hear 'no fish, no meat' and assume that I eat fish. It helps me enormously when people are precise about how they use the word vegetarian - it really helps avoid confusion and embarrassment.
AntoniaB at January 19, 2011 3:43 PM
"More than ever, men need to be wary of gold diggers."
Men are opportunists too and I'm not sure the current economy (which is what I'm assuming this warning is based on) is the issue when it's women who are more likely to be working.
I'm not saying hat that's fair, just true.
I think men who end up with golddiggers attract them for a reason and the economy has very little to do with it.
They have money--a fact which they may or may not make obvious--and seem child-like and vulnerable to "take charge" types, a characteristic typical of golddiggers. They get to be taken care of, or psychologically lazy and/or immature (as a friend of mine calls it), in exchange for supporting a woman who would otherwise not experience wealth.
I think a lot of these men are probably share some characteristics with men who are into being dominated (as in by dominatrixes). There's an element of degradation I think these men actively seek out. It becomes obvious when someone tries to talk the guy out of the relationship. It's pointless because a golddiger is precisely the kind of woman he wants.
ie at January 19, 2011 5:06 PM
Watch, the next e-mail Amy gets will be from a guy whining about how every girl is just into him for his Benjamins, and would you believe this date he had where she didn't even offer to pay!
Choika at January 19, 2011 6:10 PM
Inviting someone out to an expensive restaurant, and then telling them "don't order A, B, or C" is chintzy. All show and no go. If money was tight, he should have made the invite for someplace less expensive to begin with.
Cousin Dave at January 19, 2011 6:25 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/ill-have-the-sc.html#comment-1825782">comment from Cousin DaveAll show and no go. If money was tight, he should have made the invite for someplace less expensive to begin with.
I suspect there were conflicting things going on here -- he wanted to see the Big Man On Campus while actually being cheap.
Amy Alkon at January 19, 2011 6:51 PM
It's also possible that he invited her without realizing how expensive it was. Maybe he'd heard about the restaurant from friends - or (more likely) she mentioned it when he insisted on dinner rather than happy hour drinks - and he had no idea until he read the menu.
I've found that people usually take it for granted that others are at their same social and economic level. If a $20 entre seems normal to them, they'll assume that it is for everyone else.
At any rate, guys should do their homework before inviting a woman to a certain restaurant for dinner. If it was his misjudgment, he should've just swallowed it because he invited her. However, I get the feeling that he didn't care how he came across because he wasn't planning on seeing her again anyway. When guys see no end game, they stop playing. He was probably thinking, "This is $80 better spent on someone else."
lovelysoul at January 19, 2011 7:30 PM
If I had been her I would have gladly paid my share of the tab for the pleasure of buying someone at another table a drink. In front of the "date."
Razor at January 19, 2011 7:53 PM
Coffee is a better first date. Or an activity... something both of you are into. I was fond of outdoorsy dates... walking in the woods, beach (especially off-season when it's about enjoying the wind and the crunch of ice as you walk along), etc.
NicoleK at January 20, 2011 12:21 AM
LW says she turned him down for a second date, so he thought he was getting somewhere and liked her enough to ask her out again. Sounds like he's just a tool.
MonicaP at January 20, 2011 8:47 AM
LS: it sounds to me like he was still interested because he did ask her out again. She said she turned him down for a second date.
I agree with Dana and MonicaP about doing something interesting instead of expensive. Just doing something like walking around a jazz festival or museum or an old part of a great city and stopping for a coffee can be fun. There's none of this sticky who pays what and that whole implication who's worth what etc. And you have things to think and talk about other than what the other person is "worth."
Interesting people who do interesting things are interesting. People who focus on worth--as in I'd pay for an $80 dinner for HER, but not her--aren't even worth entertaining, except as a topic for an advice column like this.
I mean I know we live in a free market economy, but does money have to be a barometer for everything? (I'm not criticizing the LW, but her date could use something in the way of a reality check.)
ie at January 20, 2011 8:58 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/ill-have-the-sc.html#comment-1826112">comment from ieI find it uncomfortable to be treated to dinner by a stranger. If somebody knows me and knows they like me and want to take me out, that's a different story.
Amy Alkon at January 20, 2011 9:15 AM
Almost as good was the guy (friend of friends) who invited me to dinner and suggested a salad bar, place the kind where you pay first. He somehow got a couple of people ahead of me in line and told the cashier I was paying. When she told me that, I said never mind, turned and walked out. I had gone to the restaurant with him in his car but luckily it was near a bus stop, I got on the bus and was gone before he came out of the restaurant.
I never go to dinner on a first date anymore. When a guy tries to insist, I say I have time for lunch or coffee but I am just so busy I do not have time for dinner. When I get to know him and I like him, I have time for dinner.
worthit at January 20, 2011 12:08 PM
"Just think of the "fun game" he had in store for date two -- probably something like "Close your eyes, Babe, and pretend we aren't under a bridge waiting in line for free soup.""
This must be one of Amy's funniest lines, I can't stop laughing!
A friend of me told me about this guy she didn't really like, but he kept insisting on having a date with her (she's very pretty). When she finally agreed, she suggested they go for a cup of coffee. He answered something like "OK, but let's not go to Starbucks, my credit card has just been cancelled and the coffee there is really expensive". I can't understand how she went out with this guy anyway (there was no second date, though).
Mexicanita at January 20, 2011 2:29 PM
"He somehow got a couple of people ahead of me in line and told the cashier I was paying. "
You win the thread!
Cornutt at January 20, 2011 4:38 PM
"He somehow got a couple of people ahead of me in line and told the cashier I was paying."
Omg, I know! That is one of the funniest worst date stories ever.
But my favorite of all time (because they do a contest for worst date), is the women who had to pee while her date was driving her home in the snow. She went outside, sat down, and promptly got frozen onto the bumper of his car, so he had no choice but to unzip his pants and pee on her until she could free herself. She said he never called again.
Worst date ever.
lovelysoul at January 20, 2011 4:48 PM
That's a great story lovelysoul - I'm surprised he never called again though, that sounds like a great way to break the ice...
Ltw at January 20, 2011 11:40 PM
lol, Ltw. Good One. The date had apparently been going great up to that point, but that was just too embarrassing for both of them.
lovelysoul at January 21, 2011 5:37 AM
The coffee date is the best idea for a first date. You can see if you like each other, if there's chemistry, and then you're not making a big commitment in time or money.
And it's true, there are a lot of men that are golddiggers out there. All my female friends have good jobs and they're all had experiences with guys who were very interested in having them pay their way.
Chrissy at January 21, 2011 8:09 AM
"Later in the week a small "hit squad" of masked and caped women would waylay the guy in a secluded alley, hold him down and tattoo "lousy date" on his forehead thus warning off the rest of us."
Uhrm ... Okaaay then, um.
It was just a bad date, it's not like she was mugged or something, why do some women take 'a bad date' so seriously and/or personally? A date is just a date, 'they can't all be gems', just remember to have fun and laugh the bad ones off, otherwise what's the point.
Lobster at January 21, 2011 11:18 AM
That said, this dude does sound like he has some 'issue' or chip on his shoulder, like he's trying to prove some silly point. Maybe feigning a pretend-expectation that equal splitting of a bill might be a reasonable natural mutual expectation is his way of protesting the hypocrisy of a society that claims to be for equality but is only selectively so. It probably then gives him something to blame other than his personality when his dates don't go well. Who knows, who cares, it's his issue not yours, he's probably a loser, it isn't personal, that's all you need to know. 'Everyone knows' that a guy might and usually will be expected to pay at the end of a date, nobody can truly claim to be genuinely surprised at this even if she did invite him. Likewise you shouldn't be so upset or 'surprised' at having a bad date.
Lobster at January 21, 2011 11:26 AM
"He somehow got a couple of people ahead of me in line and told the cashier I was paying. When she told me that, I said never mind, turned and walked out"
Heh ... good response. Only someone with low self-respect would've stayed (maybe that's what he aims for).
Lobster at January 21, 2011 11:29 AM
It's also possible that he invited her without realizing how expensive it was. Maybe he'd heard about the restaurant from friends...
This happened to me. A guy I was working with told me about this restaurant that was "really good, and not expensive at all". We went there and found out the prices were about 50% higher than I expected from his description. Turns out his notion of "not expensive" ran quite a bit higher than mine.
Fortunately, it was AFTER I was already married, so the sticker shock hit both of us, not just me.
WayneB at January 22, 2011 8:59 AM
I also know a guy who had it happen to him, but not until AFTER getting the check. He was really hot for this friend of my wife's, and we double-dated at this high-class restaurant, so he could impress her for her birthday.
Apparently, he was short on math skills, or else doesn't look at the prices, so when we got the bill, he nearly shat himself. I had already taken the pain into account, but the look on his face was painful, just to see it. Incidentally, it didn't work, he was perpetually in the Friend Zone with her, because he was a "nice guy", and she was into assholes with long hair, tattoos, and bad attitudes.
WayneB at January 22, 2011 9:06 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/ill-have-the-sc.html#comment-1827479">comment from WayneBAgain, a girl who suggests going out for cut-rate drinks is not the girl who orders the lobster. It's also not a wise financial choice to come off cheap -- you're buying a girl dinner and likely never seeing her again, and you save what, $10?
Amy Alkon at January 22, 2011 9:07 AM
"It's also possible that he invited her without realizing how expensive it was. Maybe he'd heard about the restaurant from friends..."
That's understandable, but I think the best way to deal with it is just to be honest. "Look, I was really excited to take you here and I'm so embarassed to realize that the prices were much higher than I expected." A woman who's really into you isn't going to hold it against you, but she will if you come off like you're trying to play dumb games.
Shannon at January 22, 2011 1:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/01/ill-have-the-sc.html#comment-1827701">comment from Shannon"Look, I was really excited to take you here and I'm so embarassed to realize that the prices were much higher than I expected." A woman who's really into you isn't going to hold it against you, but she will if you come off like you're trying to play dumb games.
Right on. Part of dating is showing the kind of person you are -- how you deal with uncomfortable social situations, problems that crop up.
Amy Alkon at January 22, 2011 2:32 PM
Right on indeed!
This was an opportunity to show his true character, and he did.
This guy is a total doucher! If he's grumbling and whining like that on the first date, imagine him in two months--eeewww!
Most of the guys I've dated make less than I do, but they make up for it in other ways (i.e. conversation, as in, the lost art of). Money isn't everything, but it obviously is to this shit-eater. What an idiot!
Gspotted at January 22, 2011 3:12 PM
Such a shame lovelysoul - it would have been a great story for the question "how did you two lovebirds meet?" for them :)
I'm not into watersports (ewww!) but I know one or two girls who wouldn't be upset or embarrassed by that.
Ltw at January 23, 2011 4:38 AM
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