Ingrate Expectations
I fear my husband has some disability in regard to apologizing. Monday was his birthday. I had a terrible cold, but put myself on enough meds to cook him a wonderful meal and dessert. I felt too sick for sex, so I offered up a, um, very personal massage, but he refused. Later, when I asked for a hug as we got into bed, he said, "I don't think so." The next day, he was grumpy and distant. When I finally called him on it, he said he was sexually frustrated (despite the fact that we usually have sex three times a week). The following day, he acted like everything was normal, but I still wanted an apology. I said, "It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'" He got mad and stormed out, which is typical. The closest he ever comes to apologizing is angrily blurting out that he's sorry.
--Still Waiting
Oh, boohoo, his sex vending machine was broken. He shook and shook it and all that tumbled out was a three-course meal and dessert.
Pledging to be there for your spouse "in sickness" is supposed to mean being there feeling their forehead for a temperature, not feeling under the blanket to see if they're wearing panties. Likewise, appropriate remarks are "Can I bring you another box of tissues?" or "I'll refill your vaporizer," not "Rack up some sex, Sniffles!" This has to leave you wondering what happens if you get seriously ill. Do you wake up to him tapping your chemo tubing, "Ahem, Missy...we haven't had sex since you had hair"?
Humans seem to have an evolutionary adaptation to help us guard against being chumped, a sort of inner police dog to see that we aren't all give and give to people who are all take and take. When our sense of fairness is violated, we need a sign from the violator that we aren't idiots to trust them in the future. An apology can't undo a wrong that's been done, but because it has ego costs for the apologizer (in admitting wrongdoing), it's an offering that suggests that their future actions will be more partnerlike than selfishjerklike.
It takes a strong person to admit weakness. A person who's immature, selfish, and insecure clings to the idea that love is never having to say you're sorry, but occasionally needing to snarl it. A sincere apology involves admitting wrongdoing, expressing remorse, pledging that it won't happen again, and making amends. Feeling remorse is an especially important element. A person who doesn't feel bad about making you feel bad has no reason to feel bad about doing it again.
You can hope he'll change, you can encourage him to change (I suggest enlisting a therapist trained by marriage researcher John Gottman, gottman.com). But, because criticizing a man with such a flimsy ego is like "putting out fire with gasoline," right now, probably your most uncrazymaking approach to his little tantrums is laughing to yourself at what a big baby he is. From the "probably nice in theory" files, you could explain why an apology means so much to you and suggest making a pact to try to always behave like people who haven't forgotten they love each other. But, consider whether you want to stay married to a man who dispenses affection on the barter system. Your husband's having sex with you three times a week -- unlike all the husbands who write me, longing to go from zero to three times a year. Yet, one night, you find yourself more in the mood for NyQuil, and there's your man, standing his ground: "No humping? No hugging. The hug store is closed!"
Well, it was his birthday. LW could cook all day but not hump for an hour?
Of course, the "three days a week" sentence brings back Woody Allen. A youngish husband might feel sex starved, while his wife feels she is really putting out. I know in my 20s, 14 times a week might be right-on, certainly while on vacation. And I never had complaints.
And then LW harping the next day for an apology...how annoying. Listen, nagging is always a bad idea. As soon as a confrontation, or testy moment, can be dropped, the better. He was being pleasant, wasn't he? Why remind him you are undersexed and expect apologies for it?
Maybe hubbie is no prize, but LW sounds like a shrewish wife, who counts every "favor" granted and expects payment back, and not always in kind.
.
BOTU at March 15, 2011 5:13 PM
I was married to a man like this for far too long. I had a huge problem believing that I was worth loving, and he took full advantage of that, taking and taking til I had nothing left to give.
Problem was, as I got older, and met other people, I learned a lot, changed, and grew to believe in myself more. I chose to go to marriage counseling, because at the time I still felt I should fight to save the marriage.
He refused to go, threw huge tantrums, told me it was a waste, that I would go and not listen to a word the therapist said I should change (See what he did there?) and that we would end up in worse shape because I would get all kind of "crazy ideas". So I went by myself. I told the therapist my side, and all of a sudden he just *had* to be there. He was a salesman, a very manipulative person, and at first I swear he had the therapist believing his side and that I *was* the crazy one.
Then several weeks in I got the very best advice I have ever gotten from a friend. He said to go to our appt, say hello, and then shut up. Not say another word. Manipulative, immature people cannot stand silence. They haaaaate it. The will start babbling just to fill the void. That's what my Ex did. And when he did, he showed his true colors. After a few minutes the therapist turned to me and said "I owe you an appology, you were right. This just turned from marriage counseling to divorce counseling."
I needed that, to give me the "No, you are not the only one who sees this and you are not crazy" so that I could move on. I highly reccomend that the LW'r find a good therapist as well.
Kat at March 15, 2011 5:19 PM
Kat, I'm with you on this one. Being an ass one day and then acting like nothing happened the next day is Cluster B behavior. And as we all know, the treatment success rate for Cluster B disorders is pretty close to zero. I assume from the way Amy ended her response that divorce is an option for her, and if so, she needs to start thinking seriously about it.
Cousin Dave at March 15, 2011 6:15 PM
This is what I'm thinking: from your perspective, you're making a big romantic gesture by dragging yourself out of bed to cook for your husband's birthday. From your husband's perspective, you were feeling well enough to move around and cook all day and just decided to be a party-pooper with the sex. Totally unfair, but "bad cold" is pretty vague, your husband can't get inside your head and see how sick you are, and the fact that you were trying to act like things were normal just works against you in this case.
The more I thought about it, it led me to a general life conclusion: people are only going to give you credit/sympathy for fulfilling your obligations in the face of debilitating unwellness if that unwellness is visible and obvious. Broken leg: yes. Cancer: yes. Stomach flu: yes. Colds, headaches, lack of sleep, mysterious aches and pains: no. If you're suffering from one of the latter, then you need to decide to either suck it up and say nothing, or go all out and call in sick, stay in bed, skip that practice/party/meeting/event, etc, which will give you credibility and gain you sympathy as long as you don't do it too often.
Of course, it sounds like LW is saying that the real issue is bigger than this one incident, which may be the case. But I think this one particular event might have just gotten blown out of proportion due to misunderstanding and less-than-adept handling on both of their parts.
Shannon at March 15, 2011 9:50 PM
Shannon, I think you (and BOTU to an extent--which I never thought I'd say) are right: this sounds like one incident of many similar incidents. Taken by itself, it's easy to see how hubby could feel slighted. He acted like a sullen four-year-old, yes, but if a woman had to choose between a homecooked meal and sex for her well-adjusted husband's birthday, I'm pretty sure he'd have been okay with General Tso's Chicken from the local joint. That said, it's likely the LW didn't know she'd not feel up to sex when she started cooking. I had a bad cold a couple of months ago that knocked me on my ass for damn near a week. I thought I was over it and went out, but I was crawling into bed an hour after I left the house. Since the LW doesn't sound in the habit of foregoing sex on a regular basis, I think we can give her the benefit of the doubt up to a point.
Back to Shannon's post: it's totally understandable in this one case that your husband couldn't tell how bad you were really feeling, which is still no excuse for him to get his pout on.
Again, this is all said in the event this is a fairly isolated incident with mitigating circumstances on hubby's part, although the "which is typical" may suggest otherwise (or that the LW's exaggerating a bit because she felt slighted). It's possible that he acted like everything was normal the next day because he just wanted to forget how he acted the night before and went about it immaturely. It's also possible that he's a giant douchenozzle that pitches a hissy whenever he doesn't get what he wants when he wants it, which is supported by the "typical" comment.
"It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'"
While this sounds like a calm and rational thing to say, I think it's the wrong tactic here. Even emotionally healthy people don't like being told how to apologize. She's not his mommy. I absolutely think hubby should have sucked it up and apologized, but LW went off the track on this one. It would have been better to acknowledge that he was grumpy and asked him what the real reason was, since the sexually frustrated thing was likely just a smokescreen. I think asking for specifics and not making his grumpiness all about her would have been a better way to go.
But again with the disclaimer: possible giant douchenozzle.
NumberSix at March 15, 2011 10:58 PM
NumberSix, as always you are the voice of reason. I used to be like this guy - not as bad I hope, although there might be conflicting views on that point if you asked the right people!
The problem was my partner would get upset over something - and I would immediately get scared she was going to leave me, and defensive because I thought I'd done all sorts of nice things that week, cooked dinner, done the shopping, let her sleep in, whatever. So I felt underappreciated and got grumpy and stormed out. The problem is, as you point out, what one partner thinks is a big effort doesn't necessarily mean the same to the other.
I'm a lot more secure these days and understand myself better, so I don't think I'll be there again.
Ltw at March 15, 2011 11:49 PM
so I offered up a, um, very personal massage, but he refused.
I think she's made every effort, and I hope no one needs this translated. LW hasn't handled it well, but the husband is being an asshole.
Ltw at March 15, 2011 11:53 PM
Exactly, Ltw. No one comes out on top here. My advice to both is to talk about this calmly and explicitly. Upon rereading the letter and Ltw's post, I've come to the conclusion that the big problem in this one instance is that both expect the other to just know what they're thinking. LW needs to explain exactly how she doesn't feel appreciated instead of putting the words she wants in his mouth. That's not helping him understand what she's feeling. And hubby needs to stop being a petulant child. Though I'm a psych student, I'm not one to automatically suggest professional help, but if LW and her husband try to talk to each other explicitly and still can't get out of their respective boxes, I advise them to haul their collective assi to a good counselor.
It may be that hubby will just keep sulking and storming out and the marriage is beyond repair (could go either way from the information we have at hand), but LW owes it to him to at least be very clear about how he's hurting her. Same goes for him.
NumberSix at March 16, 2011 12:45 AM
I'd also suggest their reading up on the love languages (Gary Chapman has a website). Some of it's so saccharine it makes my teeth hurt, but the concept seems pretty sound: this husband and wife appreciate different things. She thinks it's more loving of her to expend the energy to make him a great meal than to take the easy way out with sex, which seems to be a regular occurrence with them and, hence, not all that special to her as a gesture. He's not seeing that she feels that way and, as was said above, feels cheated that she felt well enough to spend so much time cooking but not well enough to connect physically.*
*As usual, this is in the event he's not just a giant douchenozzle.
NumberSix at March 16, 2011 12:51 AM
I can't believe some of you are cutting this guy so much slack. She wasn't talking about just this one incident. It's simply an example of his selfish and unapologetic behavior. Cousin Dave has it right.
And since when do you need to "look" sick in order to be believed? Simply saying, "I'm sick" should be enough for anyone who loves you to stop thinking about their needs and care about yours. And despite being sick, she even offered him a BJ, which shows how much she tries to please him.
Trust me, LW, the type of man who stews over not getting enough sex (keeping a running tally), even when he's getting it 3 times a week, is never going to be satisfied, and neither will you because sex is going to become nothing more than an obligation. Actually, the fact that you offered a "a very personal massage" from your sick bed tells me that it already has. You were trying to keep him from getting upset because sex has already become the currency of your relationship and the way you prove your value to him.
I lived that life for a long time, and now I know that's not how emotionally mature and healthy men act. A man who is capable of truly loving you can be turned down for sex and not act like a sulking asshole. But this guy will never put your needs ahead of his own.
It sounds like you don't have children, so get away from this jerk.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 6:36 AM
Sorry, but Amy was--atypically--not rough enough on you, letterwriter.
First, gals, general advice: If you do not like a man's actions, do NOT be indirect and all mopey-butthurt-passive aggressive (i.e., like a woman) about the matter.
For example, this is *precisely* what I am talking about: "The following day, he acted like everything was normal, BUT I STILL WANTED AN APOLOGY."
So, did she ask for one? Hmm? Did she tell him what she wanted and why?
Nooooooooooo. She did this: "I said, 'It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'"
Hey, gals, you know that the guy probably heard there? This: [white noise]. That empty noise likely accompanied a crying face where his girlfriend normally was. He was, naturally, stressed out by the whole thing, and utterly clueless what the problem was.
Terrible communication is what that is, especially with a guy.
When (non-gay) guys talk, they do it directly. They don't sidle up next to the issue, and obliquely discuss their feelings about something that occured two days ago, and how they want some sort of gesture to reassure them. Guys either say, "Hey, what you just did, that is bullshit. And I am not going to take it. Or, failing that, they let the matter go and forget about it.
So the letterwriter's approach left her boyfriend mystified and annoyed. "What the @#$% is she talking about?" was his likely question.
Now here is the real issue, letterwriter: If he has been in that position more than a few times, the reason he stormed out could be because he is now forming an opinion of you that you are a high maintenance drama queen, who expects him to decode your inscrutable cues and moods. For him, that means more stress like this in future, as you cry for apparently no good reason and stare at him with water-filled eyes, expecting him to fix something he doesn't understand. That equals stress for him. (/ahem "He got mad and stormed out, which is typical.")
Ladies, are you pissed about him leaving the toilet seat up? Then go in to the living room when you find the seat up, and say, "Hey, put the damn seat down. It pisses me off when you don't. I know you may see it as a big deal, but I do. Work with me on this one." Repeat as necessary. He will clue in and put the seat down.
Are you bothered he didn't appreciate your dinner, and by his behavior when you turned him down for sex, SAY SO! Say it RIGHT THEN, and say it directly: "Hey, I cooked you dinner and just because I didn't go all "blow up doll" for you, you act like this?! Cut it out."
Don't over-process the events and nurse your feelings of upset for days or weeks, adding it to your list of undisclosed relationship grievances, not if you want to keep him.
Now, if you start using the direct approach, and he is still an ass. Then yes, dump him, because he is just an ass, and ladies, you cannot fix that.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 7:00 AM
On the flip side, if men really want to be with people who communicate like men, then they should make their lives easier by actually being with men. Why be with a woman and bitch that she communicates like one?
"I said, "It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'"
This is a little wishy-washy, but it's pretty clear what she wants here, and he responded by storming out. Mature.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 7:14 AM
"Hey, what you just did, that is bullshit. And I am not going to take it."
Spartee, if a woman actually does take that kind of direct approach, she's usually called a bitch.
Maybe she could've been a little clearer, but unless he's brain damaged, he should've gotten that she wanted a hug and an apology for his grumpy, cold behavior the night before. It gets old when guys try to use their maleness to be plain stupid.
When a woman asks for hug, what she's saying is that she feels like you don't love her...that she needs some reassurance and affection. Only a man who DOESN'T love her would act the way this guy did to a request for a hug. And he did so TWICE, even saying "I don't think so," when she asked the night before. That's not being clueless, that's being punitive.
Witholding affection like that - as a form of punishment - is a sign of some serious issues.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 7:22 AM
MonicaP: The way I see it, she wants something from him, here. Generally, you will have more success in such things identifying what you want and why, rather than hoping the other party interprets your clues.
But, yes, she is free to keep using indirect means, and hoping for success.
Please note that there is a flip side to gals adopting more guyspeak. Guys need to figure out a few things about how gals talk too.
If the guy wrote in asking, "Why the hell is my girlfriend crying all time and saying stupid shit about hugs and apologies for something from last week, which I don't even remember?", my response would be "Stop trying to understand it as a guy and think harder about how gals communicate: indirectly and in response to their inner dialogues about their feelings.
When you find yourself facing a sniffling, upset girlfriend, settle in for at least 30 minutes, maybe an hour. Express your desire to know what is bothering her, stare long with soft eyes, listen 95% of the time, nod affirmatively every so often, ask questions about her feelings, and make sure the conversation ends with reassuring platitudes by you ("I am glad we talked. This was nice..."), declarations of emotional connection ("I feel closer to you"), and a hug. What is actually said during her 60 minute soliloquy is less important; she just wants the experience of discussing her feelings with you in a safe, reassuring setting. And don't bother discussing your feelings; she really is not truly interested in them, except to hear that she is pretty and you love her.
Oh, and don't even suggest a plan of action or any ways to resolve things; women actually hate that when they are discussing their feelings. Fixing things is a guy thing. Talking about their reaction to things is a gal thing.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 7:33 AM
Oh, I almost forgot the most important part of that: don't put up with too much of that "we need to talk" sniffling stuff. Putting up with a little of that tedium is necessary, but don't stop being a guy. Gals don't like that either.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 7:41 AM
Maybe hubbie is no prize, but LW sounds like a shrewish wife, who counts every "favor" granted and expects payment back, and not always in kind.
It's actually pretty simple. People need to feel appreciated. Men and women.
It's the dumb person who doesn't let the partner who does nice things for them know that they are grateful.
Amy Alkon at March 16, 2011 7:43 AM
So, lemme see if I got this right.
Healthy enough to cook a full course meal, (EWWW, Get the hell away from the food!!!) complete with dessert, AND offer him a BJ, but not healthy enough to lie underneath him (if nothing else) and help him to do his thing? So she'd rather get all that momentum going with her throbbing,aching head, then lie on her back and whisper filthy little nothings in his ear?
To my thinking, if I was sick, I'd rather have sex for an hour than cook for three. Less effort, less food contamination, (Again, EWWW!) and it takes your mind off it. A fabulous distraction!
So no, I don't blame the husband, I think if this is her approach to her sex life, he has good cause to be angry. Rather then pout though, which is just childish, and obviously a turn off, he should have just teased her into it. That or thrown her on the bed. If he knows anything about what he's doing, which he seems to, and she's at all attracted to him,which she seems to be, then she wouldn't have been "too sick" for long.
Angel at March 16, 2011 7:50 AM
It sounds like she expended all her energy doing something she thought was nice, then just didn't have enough energy for the finale. This is like someone giving you a present they went through a lot of trouble to pick out, then you bitching at them that it wasn't what you wanted, and demanding they go back to the store and get something else.
I might agree with some of you if this were a pattern, but this is guy is getting it three times a week.
If he really wants to just do his thing with a limp body, he can jerk off and save them both the trouble.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 7:54 AM
Spartee, maybe read the actual words in the letter and comment on that instead of making up your own imaginary situation just so you can vent your generalized opinions about women? Where does it say that she was doing all this crying? Where does it say that she was being vague and mopey? It sounded like quite the opposite: "The next day, he was grumpy and distant. When I finally called him on it, he said he was sexually frustrated..." SHE had to call HIM on it, so maybe stop with all your ramblings about how direct men are and how women need to be patronized because they're all weeping morons? And since when is storming out of a room when someone clearly states they would like an apology exemplary male behaviour? You're calling HER the high maintenance drama queen??
I don't understand half the people commenting on this post - since when do you HAVE to provide sex for your husband unless you're completely and totally incapacitated? She gives it to him 3 times a week. If one night she just isn't up to it, that is her right. Go watch some porn,dude, and get over it. She'll probably give it to you tomorrow. Obviously if she was never giving it up, that would be a completely different thing, but that is not the case here.
As for cooking during the day - every time I have a bad cold, it gets a hell of a lot worse at night, so I think that she at least did that for him while she had the strength was more than enough.
He sounds like an obnoxious brat.
Rozzy at March 16, 2011 8:01 AM
lovelysoul, guys would rather date a bitch then date a passive-agressive bitch
lujlp at March 16, 2011 8:09 AM
Spartee:
Your comment is soooo going on my fridge! Thank You!
Angel at March 16, 2011 8:16 AM
First, Amy, you just nailed it with the whole "sex vending machine" thing. That's exactly how I feel when I live with someone. (Which is why I will likely never do it again. And to forestall the low sex drive comments, I actually have a really high sex drive. I'm kinda trampy.) Guys, you know all that stuff you did when we were just dating to get us all hot and bothered? Being nice to us, not making us wait on you hand and foot? Stuff like that? We continue to need it. We disconnect sexually from men who treat us like mommies, maids and personal secretaries.
So the meanest thing you could do and pretty much guarantee that your woman doesn't want to do you is to insist on sex when she tells you that she doesn't feel good. Your wang is not magic. It does not cure headaches or any other ills. We cannot disconnect our vadges from the rest of our bodies. We just don't work like you, and I'm unclear as to why men are regressing in this area of understanding.
And like me, she may very well be capable of having migraine level pain, going to work, closing some big sales, being cheerful all day long and coming home and cooking dinner. What she may not have been able to handle pain wise is being touched. Having someone on top of her. Being jostled. Yet she still offered the personal massage. She offered to take one for the team as far as she was capable that night.
Hubby seems to be an insensitive grabby baby. All he had to do was say "You don't feel well? Stop cooking dinner. I can fend for myself. Is there anything I can do to make you feel better?" And then do whatever she asks. *Then* she probably would have gone all the way.
Guys, do you try to drive a car when the oil light is on? No, you put in more oil and make sure everything else is okay, right? You *fix* it. You don't pout and get grumpy at your car. So why do you guys insist on trying to "drive" us when our trouble lights are on? Why do you not try to *fix* the illness? Try to make us roadworthy?
MissFancy at March 16, 2011 8:19 AM
"Only a man who DOESN'T love her would act the way this guy did to a request for a hug."
In sum, lovelysoul, he needs to figure it out, as she keeps on with her approach to the problem. And if her indirect methods don't work, it is his fault, and he doesn't love her.
Ladies, that is a good way to ensure your long term relationships fail. I don't recommend it.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 8:21 AM
Your wang is not magic.
Awesome. I need this on a bumper sticker.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 8:29 AM
In sum, lovelysoul, he needs to figure it out, as she keeps on with her approach to the problem.
While she was less than perfectly direct, I don't believe she was unclear. The next step would have been, "Hey, Man-Bitch, I need a hug and an apology now! Do it!" Somehow, I don't think she would have gotten the reaction she wanted. He was still sulking about not getting laid.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 8:34 AM
I've never gotten the whole "it's my birthday therefore I'm entitled to sex today." How hot to know that your blow job is both scheduled and obligatory.
I do agree with Spartee in regard that maybe the LW needs to be more direct and say things like: "I'm divorcing you because you are a dick" instead of "it's not working out."
And at the very least I certainly wouldn't cook for him on his birthday again. Fuck that.
Razor at March 16, 2011 8:38 AM
"lovelysoul, guys would rather date a bitch then date a passive-agressive bitch."
I don't see where she's being either. Nor do I see where Spartee is getting all this about her being indirect or an emotional mess.
She asked for a hug. How much more direct could she be with that? He responded, "I don't think so". Is that a proper response to someone you love?
Some people are such idiots in relationships. I have all these friends who have marital problems, but most of them boil down to one or the other, or both, simply NOT BEING NICE.
If your partner asks for a hug, why not hug her? Will that kill you? Why be a prick about it? He's being the passive aggressive one! She just wants to feel that she matters to him as more than just a lay, or somebody who cooks his dinner.
These same people go out into the world and act kind and polite to strangers - they say, "please" and "thank you" and "pardon me" - yet the most important person in the world to them is treated with rudeness. Then, they wonder why their relationships begin to suck!
I have never asked for a hug from my fiance and been turned down. Never. He wouldn't think of doing such a thing...to anybody, much less me. If his neighbor or friend or co-worker asked for a hug because they were having a bad day, he'd give them one too...because he's a NICE PERSON.
I'll bet Amy has never been turned down by Gregg for a hug either. It's immature and stupid, and ultimately counterproductive, to deny your loved one a request as simple as that.
People should try a little kindness in their relationships. Not patronizing platitudes, manipulations, and counter maneuvers. It's a relationship, not a game or a war. Here's a thought: just be KIND. Then, see how things could be sooooo much better.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 8:56 AM
"Your wang is not magic."
I don't like putting things this crudely, but it is also worth remembering that a woman's sex organ is not unique; there are literallly billons of them.
Once those rather obvious facts of life are accepted on both sides of the gender divide, we are left right where these people may still be: how to better communicate with a person you want to have in your life.
If she does not want him in her life, fine, dump him. No need to write to Ms. Alkon. But if she wants to get things to change, she likely needs to change her approach.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 9:07 AM
Exactly, LS. And if we're going to insist that people who aren't bluntly direct aren't clear, then we have to nail this guy for saying "I don't think so" instead of "No." I mean, what does "I don't think so" mean? Does it mean he could change his mind and hug her in a few minutes?
Sounds a little passive to me.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 9:11 AM
Spartee, I just don't think this is a problem with her approach. Her needs were clearly stated. She wanted a hug, and he declined, and later, when she repeated the request, he stormed off. I think Amy's response is spot on. This guy is a jerk. The only thing she can really change about her approach is to not care that he's a jerk. Maybe therapy can help. Maybe not.
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 9:14 AM
"But if she wants to get things to change, she likely needs to change her approach."
No, he needs to change his approach. She's the one being kind and giving, even while sick. He's the one being a total selfish ass. It's so patronizing to suggest that a woman who obviously cares enough to make him a great birthday dinner, and offer him a BJ, on the one of 2 nights in the week she doesn't feel like intercourse should "change her approach" in order to get a kind and loving response...to get a hug. How ridiculous.
This guy would probably get laid 5 times a week if he wasn't such a douchebag.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 9:19 AM
So, I think this one is tapped out now.
Letterwriter, I think you have enough to make an informed decision. On my side, I am saying you are likely being too indirect, and whatever failings your mate may have, you could be contributing by not being clear enough. Be more direct, and if nothing changes, well, sorry, you may well be dating an ass.
(Aside: I think I have consistently qualified my statements with "probability" weasal words such as "likely", "could be", etc. Please pay attention to those qualifiers...and note any advice not containing them--a sign someone may be projecting a bit more than most do when giving advice.)
By contrast, LS et al are taking a fairly hard line stance, insiting that you are right, he is wrong, and that is that. /shrug
Maybe. I doubt it, though.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 9:28 AM
What's bothersome is the suggestion that she is the one who needs to do even more, Spartee, when she is apparently the one trying the hardest.
Why shouldn't HE learn to be more clear about his needs? If all he wanted for his birthday was sex, I'll bet she would've found that easier than wearing herself out (while sick) preparing him dinner and desert. But she was probably worried he'd be upset if there was no dinner made.
He could've said, "Honey, I know you don't feel well, so don't worry about making me a birthday dinner. All I want for my birthday is for you to put on that sexy, red teddie and let me jump your luscious bones. Then, I'll go get us some takeout, a bottle of Nyquil, and you can get some rest."
Believe me, that would accomplish what he wants a lot better than sulking and denying her affection.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 10:03 AM
Hey, Spartee, the '50's called. They miss you!
The Good Wife http://tinyurl.com/mztx6
Kat at March 16, 2011 10:35 AM
I have a male friend who has some characteristics in common with this woman's husband. He swings from sweetest man I know to rude and unapologetic, on a dime. By the way, the rude, and unapologetic side appears most often when he is under stress about something.
He also exhibits some symptoms of possibly having a type of high functioning autism disorder, but autism is no excuse for not learning how to apologize.
When he has done something rude, getting him to recognize it is like pulling teeth, and you will rarely get anything that would pass as a genuine apology. It is more along the line of "I'm sorry you were offended by something I inadvertently did" or "I bet you're really pissed at me" rather than "I'm sorry for something I did. I will try hard not to do it again."
My question in these situations is always, how do you not notice a tendency in a potential life partner to be rude and petulant when he doesn't get his way, BEFORE you marry him?
It isn't like they are a couple of Pakistanis whose parents hooked them up and they didn't meet until the day of the wedding, or are they?
Isabel1130 at March 16, 2011 11:14 AM
My question in these situations is always, how do you not notice a tendency in a potential life partner to be rude and petulant when he doesn't get his way, BEFORE you marry him? ... but I figured I could change him!
dee nile at March 16, 2011 11:17 AM
Wow. Spartee makes some good points, as do many; I tend to think that rather than all the "shouldas," the key (and it took me years of marriage to figure this out!) is just to be open to communication: How about, "OK, you feel like I owe you an apology; I don't understand that, and I feel rejected & pissed off; we clearly are not on the same page; howzabout we sit down & talk about it, and understand each others' feelings / positions, and try to avoid a rematch?"
And I assumed "personal massage" was a hand job, given that bad cold...
Mr. Teflon at March 16, 2011 11:20 AM
I am going to restate my earlier point that LW seemed to have good intentions, she just handled the situation poorly.
What she should have done upon waking up and feeling sick was say "Oh honey, I hate to tell you this but I feel absolutely awful and I'm so disappointed because I wanted to make your birthday special *wink wink*, but would it be okay if I just stayed in bed and got better today and I'll make it up to you Friday? *wink again*" That's a totally reasonable request that any adult should be okay with.
Instead, she decided to make the effort with dinner--again, good intentions, but what most likely happened was either 1) She did such a good job of acting un-sick that hubby was totally thrown off guard when she shot him down on the sex or 2) She was shuffling around and moaning and groaning and sniffling to the point where by the time dinner was served hubby was ready to slap her.
I'm wondering about option 2...some people really get off on the martyr complex and the "I want a hug and an apology" line makes me suspect that the LW might be one of them. And there's no better way to ruin someone birthday or other special day than acting like its some inconvenient obligation and you're just there because you have to be.
Shannon at March 16, 2011 11:21 AM
"I'm wondering about option 2...some people really get off on the martyr complex and the "I want a hug and an apology" line makes me suspect that the LW might be one of them."
Spot on Shannon.
There are a certain sub set of psychological needy people who are attracted to people they can never really please.
You see this more often with parents who have an ungrateful child that they lavish everything on to the exclusion of the other children in the family who don't "need them as much"
No one should be attempting to manipulate an apology out of someone. If it is not generated by the person who should be making it, it is meaningless and valueless.
Isabel1130 at March 16, 2011 11:33 AM
What I'm getting from this is that she needs to be direct and ask for what she wants, otherwise she is your typical wishy-washy woman, but if she comes out and asks for what she wants -- in this case an apology and a hug -- she is manipulative.
Sounds to me like she started the day thinking she could make it all the way to the end and failed. Not a lot to be done there. What if she'd gotten sick at some point during dinner?
MonicaP at March 16, 2011 11:50 AM
I'm kind of curious about all the guys saying the LW should have had sex with her husband, even though she didn't feel well and didn't want to.
If you were having (presumably) enthusiastic sex three times a week, why would you WANT to have sex with your wife when she wasn't into it and didn't feel like it?
"Oooh, baby, just lay there and pretend it feels good! Yeah, sneeze and cough like that! You know it gets me hot to know that you'd much rather sleeping off a shot glass full of Robitussin!"
This is good sex...how?
afurrica at March 16, 2011 11:51 AM
Oh, and to the LW:
If this is the kind of relationship you want to have, stay with him. Otherwise, DTMFA.
afurrica at March 16, 2011 11:53 AM
The problem here - and perhaps a lot of guys don't realize this - is that it's a very bad idea to make sex feel like an obligation. Sex shouldn't be tied to affection. Sex and affection should be separate.
That's what he's doing here, and my ex used to do it too. Even though we had sex almost all the time (and in many varied ways), the few times I just wasn't up to it, he sulked like a baby, or would still try to manipulate me into it.
Over time, this resulted in me hating having sex with him. It was a chore, nothing more or less. Like taking out the garbage or mopping the floor -and that's how much passion and enthusiasm I grew to feel for it. Just something I "had" to do.
By contrast, my fiance never makes me feel bad if I'm not in the mood. He takes it like a grown up, which I wasn't used to. The first time I said "no", I went on and on, apologetically. He probably thought I was crazy. But I expected the same kind of treatment LW's husband is giving her - sulky, immature, "whah...I didn't get what I wanted" emotional distance, which is punitive.
That's just not how a mature, healthy man reacts to being told you're not in the mood (as long as he's getting it consistently - not talking about the truly sex-starved guys Amy mentioned).
I love sex now...because I don't "have" to have it. It's not an obligation, and certainly not something I must do to get a hug. I get those all the time anyway.
Guys need to realize that they'll get more sex, with more enthusiasm, if they don't make it an obligation.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 11:53 AM
"Why shouldn't HE learn to be more clear about his needs?"
He didn't write in seeking advice. When he does, and he outlines his set of perceptions, great. Until then, talk to the person who wandered in the front door.
"Hey, Spartee, the '50's called. They miss you!"
I assume this means you feel I am suggesting she engage in Stepford-like behavior.
That is odd, I thought I told her to speak up for herself and make clear what she does not like in his behavior, directly and clearly.
By contrast, people like Lovelysoul et al seem to suggest her relatively indirect approach of asking for hugs and apologies is a better way to address his behavior. An approach that has left her writing to Amy Alkon, claiming her boyfriend has a disability of some sort.
Of those two approaches, which sounds more submissive to you? Which method has been tried, so far, and what results did it produce?
Spartee at March 16, 2011 12:09 PM
"Guys need to realize that they'll get more sex, with more enthusiasm, if they don't make it an obligation."
In my direct experience and in listening to my male friends, that works with a certain percentage of women and in a certain age group.
The dicy issue is how to get laid at all, without making it "seem like an obligation"
For the vast majority of women, if the guy never takes the initiative, (and most guys wont after they are rebuffed a certain number of times) the relationship becomes sexless and the man gives up or goes elsewhere.
Isabel1130 at March 16, 2011 12:13 PM
Also IMHO "Asking for an apology to yourself" is not adult behavior.
It is parent behavior when you are teaching manners to your children like, your five year old loses his temper and gets in a physical tussle with his friend over a toy.
You say, "Johnny, that is inappropriate behavior. I want you to give the toy back and apologize immediately." If he does not, you as a parent send him to his room sans toys until he reconsiders. This teaches him to be a polite and respectful human being.
As an adult, if I demanded an apology from someone, and I had some kind of stick over them where I could "make them do it" I would be manipulating them.
If they did apologize because of the consequences of not doing it, then their apology is not sincere. And, if I believed it to be sincere, after I had forced the issue, I would be a bigger fool then they were. So Why ask at all?
Isabel1130 at March 16, 2011 12:30 PM
It depends on what is meant by taking initiative. I think most women prefer for men to take the initiative, but, that's not just grabbing her or demanding sex, or else get mad and sulk.
I've come to the conclusion that some men just have it and others don't. Some men are "women whisperers," and they just innately know how to make their women feel great and loving and sexy towards them. Others will spend the day being critical, or distant, or manipulative, or disloyal, then jump into bed at night thinking she'll just magically be hot for him.
It doesn't work that way. Kindness is mandatory. All day, not just when angling for sex. Foreplay starts with the first loving kiss in the morning, to the thoughtful phone call from work, and the picking up groceries on the way home. The smartest guys will pick up some flowers on occasion too.
They don't look at being romantic as "stupid" or "unmanly" because they understand that it's this behavior that leads to greater passion in the bedroom.
If you crack jokes about your wife to your buddies when you think she's not listening, or flirt too much with the cute waitress, or show disloyalty by not defending her when someone else hurts her feelings or puts her down, she's not going to feel very much like having sex with you.
Guys make these mistakes all the time, and maybe they honestly don't realize there's a direct correlation.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 12:42 PM
afurrica - the time-honored guys' answer to your query, "This is good sex...how?" - in the words of Bachman Turner Overwight, "Any love is good love."
Mr. Teflon at March 16, 2011 1:23 PM
Well, this is an interesting threadjack I cannot resist:
LS claims (her words) there is "direct correlation" between the following behaviors and how often a woman will have sex with their mate:
(1) first loving kiss in the morning,
(2) thoughtful phone call from work
(3) picking up groceries on the way home
(4) pick up some flowers
These events lead to "greater passion in the bedroom"
No data or citations to studies showing a correlation are provided, of course.
Now, as we are dealing with an unsupported claim, let's simply use anecdote first: Does any guy here honestly believe that engaging in those behaviors will really correlate in any meaningful way in more frequent, more passionate sex with their mates?
My guess is that most guys would note that they did not buy groceries, call their mates at work, etc. at the beginning of the relationship, and sex was more frequent and passionate at that point. Now they do such things, in fact, and have seen a drop off.
Nonetheless, this sort of thing is routinely suggested when the topic comes up. Note how LS's viewpoint shifts responsibility (i.e., blame) on a guy for his wife's relative disinterst interest in sex.
Contrary to what LS suggests, from what I gather from reading summary articles on the topic, however, a woman's interest in sex with mates declines over time, relative to a man's, for a variety of biological reasons. Hormonal changes being a big one.
I don't expect to change any minds, but guys, especially younger ones, don't buy into this crap that if you only start doing housework and buying flowers, your mate will turn back into the wild gal you first started dating. And don't take on the burden of fixing with YOUR behavior what may be an issue involving HER body's changes.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 2:51 PM
"And don't take on the burden of fixing with YOUR behavior what may be an issue involving HER body's changes"
What body changes? Sure, I guess, menopause may (although I have friends passed it who have great sex lives after leaving dud husbands). I'm not there yet, but, at 47, I've never had a hotter sex life or more desire because of the way my man treats me.
No, I didn't expect him to do my grocery shopping when we were first dating, but all the acts of courtship are essentially about being caring, kind, polite, and affectionate...making the woman feel special...setting a romantic tone...something men often forget to do after marriage.
You can scoff all you want, but maybe you should try it instead of contriving all these condescending ways of "acting" interested in your woman, while basically projecting that women are emotional messes and unintelligable morons.
Being truly liked, listened to, cuddled and cared for will ALWAYS be the best aphrodisiac for females. When a woman has to beg for a hug, you can guarantee she's not feeling loved or particularly interested in making love. She may do it as a chore (most women fall into two camps on this - those who will do it as a "duty" and those who won't).
Point is, it's one thing to have sex. It's another thing to know how to make your woman really WANT to have sex. Guaranteed, most women who stop having sex are not asexual. There's just usually something stopping her from connecting deeply with that particular partner.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 3:21 PM
> You can scoff all you want, but maybe you should
> try it
I did... for many years. Married sex life went from 0 to... 0. I can assure you those 4 things you set out don't make a whit of difference. Spartee is right on this.
Snoopy at March 16, 2011 4:00 PM
I have to agree with Spartee and Snoopy here. I did exactly the things LS lists - EXACTLY - and had sex maybe twice in the six months after I returned from Afghanistan. Rather than bringing the ex closer to me, she claimed she felt "smothered." Then again, maybe it was just the fact that she'd been banging another dude while I was at war, and continued it after I got home.
Oh well, the current hot little 30-year-old blonde doesn't give a damn about flowers, phone calls or groceries. She does like sex, Suns games and beer, though. Win.
MikeInRealLife at March 16, 2011 4:52 PM
Sorry to hear it, snoopy. Spread the word, though: If you make the effort, and you only get the same unreciprocating, disinterested spouse, stop trying to fix it. It is not your fault.
My sense is not enough guys speak plainly about experiences like yours, letting others know in the process that spending their healthy living years trying fix the unfixable is a bad idea.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 4:55 PM
Mikeinreallife: /deep nod
Like I said, spread the word. Tell guys what you know. Especially younger guys, who often don't get enough of such insight into life from fathers and uncles and other male mentors.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 4:59 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1931575">comment from MikeInRealLifeThen again, maybe it was just the fact that she'd been banging another dude while I was at war, and continued it after I got home.
Rule number one is choose wisely. If you haven't picked an ethical partner, with strong self-worth, it's sure to get ugly in one or many ways.
A woman who's got herself and her life together wants and appreciates a man who's sweet to her and does sweet things.
"Doesn't give a damn about ... phone calls?"
Um, I call Gregg multiple times a day (and vice versa) because he's fun and smart and clever and makes me laugh, and because we come up with interesting ideas together while we're on the phone. My day doesn't start right if I can't talk with him.
Amy Alkon at March 16, 2011 5:02 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1931576">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and he answers his phone (when he knows it's me from Caller ID) in THE most amusing ways.
Amy Alkon at March 16, 2011 5:03 PM
"Then again, maybe it was just the fact that she'd been banging another dude while I was at war, and continued it after I got home."
I didn't mean to imply that you can fix things once your woman has moved on to banging another guy. Of course not.
But, frankly, I don't understand how the Spartee method works. Don't call, give flowers, really listen to her, or make an effort...and how, exactly, does this create a good relationship?
You have the testimony of women like me and Amy, who are with guys who make us feel special every day, and we indeed have sex, and do many other things to enhance our guys' lives.
If your girl likes sports and beer, and you indulge that, you're spending quality time and making her happy. Groceries and flowers are just an example. The most important thing is to find out the special things your woman loves and give that to her. If it's hugs or hockey, it doesn't matter. As long as you're genuinely trying to make her happy, all but the most insane or frigid women will want to return the favor.
I will say, however, as a resort/marina owner, I often see the guys who are in constant lookout for the perfect "guy's girl" - the beer-slugging, sports-loving, blond, fake-boobed chick. I have a couple living here, and the guys believe they've struck relationship gold. One chick falls down drunk on a regular basis, almost falling into the water on a few occasions. The other seems nice, but so insecure she'd pretend to love anything her guy is into. It remains to be seen whether either of these relationships will last. And, I wonder what happens if either of those chicks get truly sick - as Amy says, what if she gets cancer? In fact, one of those girls just had a heart attack at age 38 (some genetic heart problem), and her boyfriend is already distancing himself. Playtime is over.
If you're trying to set up your life so you never have to give - never have to meet someone's real needs for intimacy and real love - you'll eventually reach a divide.
lovelysoul at March 16, 2011 6:57 PM
Lovelysoul, and Amy, thanks for writing what you have in the post. Good women and good men will be kind and loving to their partners and appreciative of their partners' efforts.
Whereas women and men who have deep-seated issues of some kind will not. So choose wisely when choosing your partner - pick a good person and treat them lovingly and well. If they're a good person, they'll reciprocate.
"If you're trying to set up your life so you never have to give - never have to meet someone's real needs for intimacy and real love - you'll eventually reach a divide."
Exactly! And those kinds of people shouldn't be in long-term relationships or give other people the impression that they're in it for the long-term. They're in it for the good times and bail out during the bad. If you're going into a long-term relationship, especially marriage, have the wisdom and self-respect to avoid people who are shallow about relationships.
HKatz at March 16, 2011 7:02 PM
Shannon, I think you (and BOTU to an extent--which I never thought I'd say) are right: this sounds like one incident of many similar incidents. Taken by itself, it's easy to see how hubby could feel slighted. He acted like a sullen four-year-old, yes, but if a woman had to choose between a homecooked meal and sex for her well-adjusted husband's birthday, I'm pretty sure he'd have been okay with General Tso's Chicken from the local joint. That said, it's likely the LW didn't know she'd not feel up to sex when she started cooking. I had a bad cold a couple of months ago that knocked me on my ass for damn near a week. I thought I was over it and went out, but I was crawling into bed an hour after I left the house. Since the LW doesn't sound in the habit of foregoing sex on a regular basis, I think we can give her the benefit of the doubt up to a point.
Reality at March 16, 2011 7:21 PM
Lovelysoul - thinking about what you said and what Spartee said: my hypothesis would be that if a women isn't interested in having sex with her husband, basically nothing the husband does will change that, including the things you listed or any other wonderful things he does. If she is interested, then those things may well improve the frequency of sex. But you'd be surprised how many women lose interest in sex with their husbands after a few years of marriage.
Snoopy at March 16, 2011 7:40 PM
"He acted like a sullen four-year-old, yes, but if a woman had to choose between a homecooked meal and sex for her well-adjusted husband's birthday, I'm pretty sure he'd have been okay with General Tso's Chicken from the local joint. That said, it's likely the LW didn't know she'd not feel up to sex when she started cooking."
It's difficult to say what he would have been satisfied with, given that he's the kind of guy who refuses to give his wife a hug (even after she asks for one), not only when she's sick but after she cooked him a birthday meal.
If she had gotten him takeout, he might have whined about not getting better food than that. Maybe he would have asked for sex anyway, but withheld other forms of affection as punishment for not getting the home-cooked meal.
I'm not going to dismiss his behavior as merely acting like a sullen 4 year old, as if that's something to be glossed over in an adult, especially if this is a pattern in his behavior.
It's sad that so much of the conversation is devoted to whether she could have managed to offer herself up, limp with exhaustion and sniffly, to have sex. As if any normal person would want to make love when the person they (ostensibly) love is under the weather - and especially when she doesn't seem like someone who avoids having sex more generally. And as if that would be a solution to their marriage problems - "if only I had sex with him this one time there would never have been any problem!" (if this is a pattern in his behavior, then something else will trigger his mood swing... it's not a solution, and you can't keep blaming yourself when you're doing your best)
As I said in my earlier post, good people and people without deep personal problems reciprocate kindness and love. He doesn't sound like a person who does.
HKatz at March 16, 2011 7:41 PM
Amy, there is a repeat of one of my earlier posts up there under Reality's name. I don't know if it's actually Reality or a response to an earlier thread from someone else or if you're still having server problems, or none of the above. Just letting you know I didn't post under anyone else's name.
NumberSix at March 16, 2011 7:46 PM
"If she is interested, then those things may well improve the frequency of sex. But you'd be surprised how many women lose interest in sex with their husbands after a few years of marriage."
It's probably a mix of reasons - some of them lose interest in sex because of personal reasons and not because of their husbands' behavior; I feel bad for the husbands in those cases, because they can be good men and it won't help.
For others who lose interest, it's because their husbands don't know how to behave (most likely outside of the bedroom, but also in the bedroom too) or don't want to behave well; willing as you are, willingness wears out in the face of repeated callousness, selfishness, and indifference.
HKatz at March 16, 2011 8:01 PM
LS: "But, frankly, I don't understand how the Spartee method works. Don't call, give flowers, really listen to her, or make an effort...and how, exactly, does this create a good relationship?"
You are making up things. I never wrote "don't" as an instruction. I challenged your "direct correlation" claim, which struck me, and apparently others, as not in keeping with what we observe in life.
If it did actually work, men would do just what you suggest.
Spartee at March 16, 2011 8:17 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1932831">comment from NumberSixNumberSix, it's reading out as under Reality's IP, not yours. (The one that starts out "Shannon")
Amy Alkon at March 16, 2011 11:23 PM
"If she is interested, then those things may well improve the frequency of sex. But you'd be surprised how many women lose interest in sex with their husbands after a few years of marriage."
I'm not surprised. The difference is whether one believes this is just a natural occurence - that wives tend to become asexual over time, and there's nothing her partner can do about it, as Spartee seems to believe, or whether there are underlying issues within the relationship that cause this loss of desire.
I think any good marital therapist will confirm my view that, in most cases, there are reasons - resentments (like in my case and this one, where my ex made me feel like sex was an obligation - like I was a sexual vending machine), betrayals, unresolved hurts, and sexual incompatabilities.
I believe that if you dig deep enough into a relationship where the wife has stopped having sex with her husband (or vice versa), you'll usually find a reason that has nothing to do with biology. That's just the convenient excuse both partners use to avoid confronting the larger issues.
"If it did actually work, men would do just what you suggest."
I posted some time ago a link to an article about a kissing experiment. They had couples make a concerted effort to kiss more because so many couples let that kind of making out fall by the wayside in their busy lives. All the couples reported that it was awkward at first, but ultimately really jumpstarted their love lives again - made them feel hot for each other.
Of course, these were apparently well-adjusted couples, with basically healthy relationships, who had just gotten lazy. As Hkats says, these simple fixes won't work with people with major problems.
And, I often see guys try being kinder and/or more romantic for maybe a week or two, expecting a quick fix, then when she doesn't respond immediately with sex 3 times a day, they conclude this doesn't work, and go back to the same old way of functioning.
Sadly, this is usually following some major transgression or fall out in the marriage. No amount of flowers or acts of kindness will usually work by then, and certainly not without a consistent, prolonged change.
But for couples who just may be gradually drifting apart emotionally, or losing passion due to boredom or familiarity (no grander reasons like infidelity or other dramas), shaking things up a bit by being more thoughtful, kinder, and romantic CAN do wonders to get things back on track.
The way I view relationships is like driving. Once you're off in a ditch, or over a cliff, there's not much you can do, but good driving is all about making subtle corrections all the time to stay on the road. If couples take their relationships seriously enough to do that - to stay connected and in synch - they usually won't end up with serious problems.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 5:21 AM
NumberSix,
Since there seems to be some confusion, I'll just say that I haven't posted in this thread. Now people are free here to name themselves whatever they like, hence names aren't the mark of a unique individual. In any case, I figured I'd try and shed some light on the issue.
Reality at March 17, 2011 6:38 AM
Ultimately, there's nothing that's going to save your marriage or your sex life if they're dead already and you both just don't know it yet.
Any tip for improving the quality of your relationship is going to work only if you're both still in it in more than the most superficial way. It's like giving CPR to a guy who's been dead for three days and wondering why it isn't working.
MonicaP at March 17, 2011 9:57 AM
Well, after reading through the letter, article, and every single comment, I think the husband in this case is a jerk, based on what the LW said. Now, it's possible that she hasn't represented herself or him honestly, but I'm more than a little disturbed by all the speculation as to what "really" happened or the way she delivered the information.
What bothers me MOST about this is the fact that so very many comments say that she should have had sex with him and that his anger was her fault, and that she was wrong to ask for an apology.
When I get sick, I can do a lot of things, but I cannot have sex. I can't. I've tried, because my husband has a very low sex drive, so I try to do it whenever he's in the mood. But if I'm sick, nothing feels right or good, and sex is physically painful. I can power through a lot. I could cook, I would work, but I couldn't screw. It hurts, and the occasions when I have agreed and tried to hide my lack of desire or tingly-feelings from the hubby have made me feel used and I've avoided him for days afterwards. (Not his fault; I should have been honest.)
The idea that a husband, who supposedly should love his wife, would say that what she DID while sick wasn't good enough, and that she didn't deserve any kind of affection from him because she couldn't give him what he wanted, is mean. That he should be able to have sex with her knowing that she is sick and finding the whole thing not the LEAST bit pleasureable, that in fact it is almost certainly painful, is horrible.
The fact that her arousal is as necessary as his for it to be anything more than a painful demand on her was apparently lost on her husband as well as some commenters. I would not ask my husband to endure suffering for me. He wouldn't knowingly ask me to for him. I cannot imagine a healthy relationship in which one party demands the other suffer so the first can have a fleeting moment of pleasure.
Duchess Inky at March 17, 2011 10:19 AM
Yeah. I bet some of the comments here would be very different if we'd gotten a letter from a guy who spent all day building his wife a deck for her birthday while sick as a dog, then got bitched out and given the cold shoulder because he wouldn't massage her shoulders, too.
MonicaP at March 17, 2011 11:16 AM
I disagree. While he had no right whatsoever to withhold affection from her, I think the whole thing was due to her "powering through it" in the first place. She was well enough to cook a full course meal, but not bounce her husband? If you're too sick to screw, you're too sick to cook, and you should be in bed in the first place.You should NOT be giving him the impression that everything is just A-OK and you'll be there for his erotic massage just as soon as you finish the strawberry mousse! She built up his expectations in the first place, disappointed him in the second place, and then demanded an apology for daring to expect what any healthy red-blooded male would, on his birthday, expect from a loving wife. If she would have stayed in bed, he would have had an idea that she was wayyyy too sick and might have even cooked HER dinner. And again, STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE FOOD!!!
Angel at March 17, 2011 12:19 PM
And the best way to handle the situation is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RNrvtqTaE4
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 17, 2011 12:20 PM
If you're too sick to screw, you're too sick to cook, and you should be in bed in the first place.
As others have already pointed out, this is not always the case.
.You should NOT be giving him the impression that everything is just A-OK and you'll be there for his erotic massage just as soon as you finish the strawberry mousse!
This is an assumption on your part. Nowhere in the letter does she say she pretended everything was well. She says she was on cold medication.
She built up his expectations in the first place, disappointed him in the second place, and then demanded an apology for daring to expect what any healthy red-blooded male would, on his birthday, expect from a loving wife.
Ah, poor baby had to deal with the fact that he'd have to wait maybe another 24 hours for some booty. Life is so hard sometimes. But he's a grown-up. Grown-ups deal maturely with disappointment all time.
And again, STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE FOOD!!!
As there's no indication he asked her to stay away from the food, this appears to be your issue and not his.
MonicaP at March 17, 2011 12:48 PM
I think she's the Mommy (asking for a hug and an apology like he was a five year old) and he's the spoiled little boy (stomping off in a huff when he didn't get what he wanted for his birthday).
My only question is; which behavior came first in this relationship, her mommy behavior or his spoiled baby behavior?
Maybe they got married because both of them found what they were looking for?
Isabel1130I at March 17, 2011 12:51 PM
"If you're too sick to screw, you're too sick to cook, and you should be in bed in the first place."
Oh, please! Those of us who are parents didn't get sick days. We still had to pack lunches, cook meals, drive kids to school, give baths, etc. Little kids don't care if you're sick. And many also have to go to work too.
We have no idea from her letter whether she worked all day, or ran kids around, before coming home and cooking dinner. Not everyone has the luxury of staying in bed while sick.
She said she took a lot of cold meds so she could at least prepare him a birthday meal and nice dessert. Cold meds often work for awhile, but then, they make you really sleepy. That's probably what happened.
I can't believe all of you who think she should've stayed in bed so as not to get his hopes up. What, if your wife is standing erect that automatically means you're going to have sex? Is there a rule that a man is guaranteed sex on his birthday? I've never heard of that one.
If he got his hopes up, then he may have been disappointed. Disappointment is a part of life. The valid issue here is how he DEALS with disappointment, which is to become cold, selfish, and withold affection, even when asked for a simple hug. Afterwards, he's also totally unapologetic about this mean, childish behavior.
The LW is not wrong here - for anything. She tried to be thoughtful and loving, only to be treated with coldness and ingratitude.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 1:18 PM
Being sick makes me feel unattractive, feeling unattractive makes me not at all in the mood for sex.
It's also possible that she thought she had more energy than she had, and ran out of it during the meal prep.
NicoleK at March 17, 2011 1:21 PM
Plus, I guarantee that if she'd stayed in bed sick, he'd still have wanted sex. He'd say, "But you haven't done anything all day but lie in bed..." (wah, and you didn't even make me a birthday dinner!)
The issue here is whether a woman has the right to say no, and not be treated badly for it...WHATEVER her reasons (cold, headache, UTI, yeast infection...we women have some reasons we'd rather not get into). Saying, "I'm not in the mood" should be sufficient, and it should be respected by any emotionally healthy, loving man.
I mean, she's not a woman who has been denying him sex regularly. This is a couple normally having sex 3 times a week, which is probably above average for married couples. She had every right to say no.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 1:41 PM
Where's Thag ???
Zeitghost at March 17, 2011 2:09 PM
But for couples who just may be gradually drifting apart emotionally, or losing passion due to boredom or familiarity (no grander reasons like infidelity or other dramas), shaking things up a bit by being more thoughtful, kinder, and romantic CAN do wonders to get things back on track.
When I tried this the result was MORE arguments and MORE frustration. What did work was a change in attitude inspired by some blogs that describe themselves as "red pills" to the prevailing notions of gender relations (eg. Susan Walsh and Athol Kay).
Zeitghost at March 17, 2011 2:20 PM
"Oh, please! Those of us who are parents didn't get sick days. We still had to pack lunches, cook meals, drive kids to school, give baths, etc. Little kids don't care if you're sick. And many also have to go to work too"
Ummm, I have two kids, three when you count hubby. When I'm sick, I say so and let him take over, I don't play the martyr and get mad at him for not reading my mind and being able to telepathically tell exactly how sick I am. He also enjoys this because he gets to show off how smoothly things go when done "his way'. ("yes dear....")
"What, if your wife is standing erect that automatically means you're going to have sex? Is there a rule that a man is guaranteed sex on his birthday? I've never heard of that one."
Men are horny. Sex is a favored "gift". Most would rather get a blowjob then a meal, which they could get at the local Denny's. If your man didn't get you flowers for your birthday, you'd probably be disappointed.
"If he got his hopes up, then he may have been disappointed. Disappointment is a part of life. The valid issue here is how he DEALS with disappointment...."
Most, including myself, have already agreed with the opinion that he acted like a selfish, petulant, spoiled child. MY issue is that she brought on his behavior in the first place by first acting the martyr, and then turning into a diva.
"The issue here is whether a woman has the right to say no, and not be treated badly for it...WHATEVER her reasons (cold, headache, UTI, yeast infection...we women have some reasons we'd rather not get into). Saying, "I'm not in the mood" should be sufficient, and it should be respected by any emotionally healthy, loving man."
True, but men don't have the option of discussing their feelings like women do. Expressing disappointment to most men is best done with as much growling, snarling, and general moodiness as possible. Most are whiny babies when they don't get their way. (Before anyone shreds me for that statement, I repeat the qualifier MOST.)The more infantile the male, the more general snarkiness results. In this case, I think his feelings were hurt and he didn't want to "pussy out" by stating calmly his feelings of rejection.
Angel at March 17, 2011 2:55 PM
Imagine it is the wife's birthday, and hubbie has been re-tiling the kitchen as promised, before a nice dinner and evening on the town.
But as 6 pm he says, "This cold has me down. But instead of that Zagat-rated bistro, I am willing to take you to the McDonalds down the street."
Wife gets huffy, but gets over it by morning.
But in morning hubbie then gets his back up, and demands apology from wife for not happily going to McDonalds. Wife is not about to apologize for not wanting to go to McDonalds.
Hubbie writes letter to Dear Online Abby-Man, explainging the crisis. Online Abby-Man says wife is a loser for demanding a good restaurant when you had a cold.
I am always amazed at how little women understand men. Men actually understand women better, than vice versa. I guess that is because we have to cater to females to get laid, so we learn how, and all the lies we have to live and tell to keep the peace.
A young husband will always want sex over a stupid dinner, and does not want a hand-job from his wife on his birthday. How stupid can women get?
Do you want to eat at McDonalds on your birthday?
BOTU at March 17, 2011 2:58 PM
BOTU, my thoughts exactly.
Angel at March 17, 2011 3:04 PM
"Expressing disappointment to most men is best done with as much growling, snarling, and general moodiness as possible. Most are whiny babies when they don't get their way."
I don't know what men you hang around, but that's not the behavior of most men I know. I'll qualify that - mature men. An eighteen year old having a bad day would act like this.
"MY issue is that she brought on his behavior in the first place by first acting the martyr, and then turning into a diva."
No, she didn't bring on this behavior. He apparently acts this way as a pattern. This isn't a guy having a bad day or handling disappointment badly once in a while; every adult has a bad day or moments they're not proud of. This is apparently something he does repeatedly (this latest incident is what probably finally got her to write to Amy). And when you live with someone like that it's like walking on eggshells - you bend over backwards to please them, but you'll never be perfect, so they'll always find fault in you.
And cooking a birthday meal for your husband and offering an erotic massage afterwards (or handjob or whatever) is not playing the part of a martyr; it's called being sweet. The fact that he requires that she have sex with him when she's sick in order to appease him is sick in and of itself.
HKatz at March 17, 2011 3:10 PM
"An eighteen year old having a bad day would act like this."
Most men never pass 18, no matter their chronological age. And while "mature men" may have been trained to express it differently, you can bet your bottom dollar this is the same emotional response most men would have in their head, even if it never came out of their mouth, in which case it breeds resentment.
"And cooking a birthday meal for your husband and offering an erotic massage afterwards (or handjob or whatever) is not playing the part of a martyr; it's called being sweet.
No, it isn't. But going to all that trouble to cook a dinner which requires WAY more energy then sex when she obviously doesn't feel up to either, is. And extorting an apology from her husband for being disappointed over not getting some cookie is completely diva-ish, not to mention expecting her MAN to behave like a WOMAN.
"The fact that he requires that she have sex with him when she's sick in order to appease him is sick in and of itself."
So I bet your husband has never ever had sex when he had a cold, headache, or was mad at you. It's called maintenance sex, having sex with your SO when you'd rather have a bath just to make them HAPPY.As BOTU said, would you be pleased eating at McDonald's for your Bday? Sometimes it's just not about you.
Angel at March 17, 2011 4:37 PM
"As BOTU said, would you be pleased eating at McDonald's for your Bday?"
If my husband was sick, had worked all day, and couldn't do much else then I'd celebrate my birthday with him on another day. A lot of times that's how it works out anyway - in the middle of the work week it's harder to go out, so you schedule something for the weekend in honor of someone's birthday.
Even children often have their birthday party the weekend before or after their birthday, you know, because it might be easier to have it on a Sunday than on a Tuesday afternoon after school.
The fact that the guy needed to have the sex right that evening when she's sick... what an embarrassing example of manhood. If a child can handle having a birthday celebration on a different day, you think a grown man can't? Are you serious?
"Most men never pass 18, no matter their chronological age."
You're not giving men enough credit.
"not to mention expecting her MAN to behave like a WOMAN."
Again, you have this strange idea that mature men act like wild dogs with the snarling and growling and whatnot. They're not wild animals. They have control over themselves. They are capable of understanding another person's feelings. Really. This doesn't make them a woman. And they are capable of apologizing.
Only immature people can't give a sincere apology when they've behaved like jerks.
"But going to all that trouble to cook a dinner which requires WAY more energy then sex when she obviously doesn't feel up to either, is."
As stated by other commenters, sometimes you don't know how bad you feel until it's the end of the day and you're wiped out. The fact that you're treating this as a catastrophic mistake worthy of contempt, tantrum and sulks is laughable.
"Sometimes it's just not about you."
Right - and for a good marriage to work, both partners have to be giving and understanding of each other. The marriage described by the letter-writer seems pretty one-sided.
HKatz at March 17, 2011 5:10 PM
All of this insistence on having sex when you have a bad cold reminds me of that joke I saw on 30 Rock (I think it was 30 Rock)... incorporating Vapor Rub into foreplay - "this isn't going to get on my chest by itself..."
HKatz at March 17, 2011 5:18 PM
"Expressing disappointment to most men is best done with as much growling, snarling, and general moodiness as possible. Most are whiny babies when they don't get their way."
Angel, you're with a very immature man if that's what you accept as normal. You already know this because you counted your husband as a child. I feel very badly for you - I was you, so I know - but that's not the kind of behavior you should accept. You deserve better than that.
A mature man (and there are mature men even at 18, and some who'll never mature at 50+) doesn't act that way in the face of "rejection", disappointment or anything else. A mature man wouldn't even want to have sex with a sniffly, cold-medicine-drugged up spouse because what fun is that...for her? A mature man actually cares about that...about what's best for his partner, not just himself.
You don't know this because it's not your reality, but maybe someday, you'll find yourself in the kind of relationship that some of us have, including Amy, where we aren't constantly assuaging the childish demands of an immature, selfish man/child.
Those of us who've gotten there have learned what unhealthy looks like, and also learned to aim higher, choose better. The LW is in an unhealthy marriage with a demanding, immature jerk, who will never consider her needs before his own.
Amy nailed it. What happens if it's more serious than a head cold? Does his desire to have his sexual needs met at all times supersede her cancer treatments...her dialysis?
Any woman who accepts a child for a husband will find herself abandoned when the going gets tough, as it always does in life.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 5:25 PM
Read and remember, gentlemen, read and remember:
"Ummm, I have two kids, three when you count hubby."
"Most men never pass 18, no matter their chronological age."
"You don't know this because it's not your reality, but maybe someday, you'll find yourself in the kind of relationship that some of us have, including Amy, where we aren't constantly assuaging the childish demands of an immature, selfish man/child."
"Any woman who accepts a child for a husband will find herself abandoned when the going gets tough, as it always does in life."
Spartee at March 17, 2011 6:46 PM
Yeah, Spartee, my two statements are rooted in the knowledge that there are many men better than that...better than being accepted as a child. In fact, I am with one of those wonderful, loving, mature, and devoted men.
Angel...and you, apparently...don't believe these men actually exist. They are as unlikely to you as Bigfoot. "Men aren't really that way...and if they seem that way, they're only acting or lying".
My ex used to tell me the same thing when I would assert my belief that all men didn't act as selfish and immature as him. But it was he that was lying...to keep me believing that I couldn't do any better. Thank God, I didn't believe that BS then, and I don't now.
What is more pro-male: your attitude or mine? You excuse immature behavior as typical. I think most men are much better than that. I hold your gender to a higher standard than you apparently do.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 7:06 PM
Wow, I am amazed at the women who settle for children as husbands. Anyone male or female should be able to understand illness as a reason for not wanting to have sex. It is not personal it is not I do not like you get away from me. This is I feel hell and I just cannot have sex with you tonight. There is having sex with your partner when you are not in the mood and then there is feeling like death and having a petulant man acting like you OWE him sex.
I do not know about the rest of the ladies here but for me sex is not a passive thing. It is fun, active, joyful and if we can last long enough it can be exhausting. As someone sitting her with a terrible cold sex is the last thing I want to do and I will not be doing it until I feel better. Why? Because sex is not something that should be demanded it is something that is shared. They share it three times a week, certainly not too much but not too little either.
The LW could have handled it better, she could have been very honest about how horrible she felt and given him a coupon promising one great night of sex including whatever is his favorite thing to do WHEN she was feeling better. Demanding an apology and demanding it in the form she feels is best is as immature as his sulking. They both need to grow up and they both need therapy separately and marriage counseling.
worthit at March 17, 2011 7:38 PM
"The LW could have handled it better, she could have been very honest about how horrible she felt and given him a coupon promising one great night of sex including whatever is his favorite thing to do WHEN she was feeling better. Demanding an apology and demanding it in the form she feels is best is as immature as his sulking. They both need to grow up and they both need therapy separately and marriage counseling."
Thank you, worthit, this is my point exactly. If she would have been honest from the start about how horrible she felt, he would have had a chance to be understanding and all the rest of it. As it was, he thought she was good to go, and of course was disappointed as a result. She should have been honest with him in the first place and saved her energy for his preferred outlet instead of playing the martyr and cooking him dinner. Also, I might ask all the women snarling at the LW's husband, how would she have felt if he would have been completely OK with it and just kissed her on the forehead, tucked her in, and went into the living room to watch porn?
Angel at March 17, 2011 8:08 PM
And lovelysoul, did it ever occur I might LIKE my husband the way he is?
Angel at March 17, 2011 8:12 PM
I think my perspective on this issue really reflects what Isabel recently said about the wife here behaving like the “mommy” and the husband behaving like the “child” in this relationship. Obviously that sort of dynamic is unhealthy and unproductive, but I also think there is enough culpability to pass around between these two that it isn’t obvious where the root of the problem resides. Potentially the problem is that neither of them are really communicating to each other on an adult level.
First of all, people don’t often have a “disability” when it comes to apologizing. Instead people often disagree on whether or not they have wronged someone else and hence they may not feel an apology is warranted. Just because someone desires an apology doesn’t mean it is guaranteed the other person is going to agree. It is a matter of perspective.
Secondly, with regard to this particular situation, I believe what ideally should have occurred (as would be expected in an adult relationship between reasonable equals) is that when the LW woke up feeling under the weather she should have approached her husband and explained that while she would love to make his birthday special, that she really didn’t have the energy due to being sick and then set up an alternate date for them to celebrate. If he found that arrangement to be unacceptable then he would have been totally unreasonable, within adult relationships people understand these things.
Now even if she thought she could power through the day and make it special, the problem comes in that when she decided she was unable to do so (again, this is totally reasonable) there were still looming implications. That looming implication was that even though his birthday celebration wasn’t going to be all it was cracked up to be, this was still the only celebration he was going to receive until his next birthday rolled around. That is the kind of thing that would reasonably upset anyone. People don’t like seeing their special days forgotten or neglected. People feel like they have gotten cheated out of something that only rarely comes around in this situations.
Now what he should have done at that point was expressed this to his wife, explain that he understood she wasn’t feeling well and that she should rest, that he would help her feel better and they could do the “real” birthday celebration once she was over her cold. Instead he acted like a brat and internalized all of this which was not a mature way to handle things.
I am compelled to point out however that he didn’t actually “demand” sex from her, he didn’t rant and rave until she gave in to his expectations, nor did he do anything else coercive as some people appear to be implying. Being grumpy and distant doesn’t make for a demand… it makes for someone who didn’t get what they wanted and decided to behave like a child. It is critically important here that people recognize that this guy did in fact respect her wishes, he simply wasn’t happy about it and did not express any of this in a mature adult fashion. The important take home message here is that he is allowed to be unhappy about the situation.
Now as for two days later. Apparently he was over everything and behaving normally, not grumpy and distant. So whatever it was that he was grumpy about, he had dealt with it or was willing to move on. The LW however wanted an apology for how he acted when he was upset, but it is important to look at the apology she desired “I said, "It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'" He got mad and stormed out, which is typical.”
An apology like that is basically her expecting him to give her a check mark for his birthday celebration, for whatever happened to “count” and that his birthday for all intents and purposes had been taken care of for that year. He was supposed to have just been happy with the effort even though it wasn’t really what he wanted and no plans were made to try and celebrate “properly”. Is it really a surprise someone might get upset about something like that?
So all in all I think these two failed to recognize that they should have rescheduled given the extenuating circumstances. He behaved like a child when things didn‘t work out how he wanted, and she is looking to be given full credit for providing her husband a half assed celebration on a particular day instead of a good celebration when they were both healthy.
Reality at March 17, 2011 8:17 PM
"Also, I might ask all the women snarling at the LW's husband, how would she have felt if he would have been completely OK with it and just kissed her on the forehead, tucked her in, and went into the living room to watch porn?"
When I was married to a sex-obsessesed prick like this, I was relieved when he went to watch porn. "Thank God!" I'd say, "I get a reprieve for the night". Especially if I was sick.
But now, I understand those are not the only two options. It's not give him sex on demand or have him go watch porn.
Today, my guy would make me some tea and take care of me. It wouldn't be all about him and his needs. And it wouldn't matter when I realized I was sick either. I mean, you can start feeling sick when you're putting the dessert in the oven. A sore throat can progress from minor annoyance to a full blown agony in hours.
You're playing into this kind of narcissism when you start giving credence to arguments like that because those arguments are exactly the kind a narcissist uses. "Well, you didn't LOOK sick ten minutes ago...I guess you were trying to trick me...get my hopes up..."
"You want a hug? I DON'T THINK SO."
OMG, it's textbook. Turn it around..and around...and around...until she's unsure whether what she did is right or wrong. Until she actually feels guilty for making him a dinner AND being sick (simultaneously!). She's such a terrible wife!!!
This marriage is in major trouble, but I worry as much for those of you who don't see that as I worry for her.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 8:33 PM
"Just because someone desires an apology doesn’t mean it is guaranteed the other person is going to agree. It is a matter of perspective."
Narcissists never agree they've truly wronged anyone. If they admit wrongdoing at all, they find plenty of blame to place on the other person. In fact, they use the same relativism that you are using..."it's only a matter or opinion...nothing is ever black and white..or really ever right or wrong...it's all in the eyes of the beholder...I don't 'agree' I've done wrong; it's just your opinion."
That's total BS. Some things are clearly wrong and should be apologized for. Refusing to hug your wife is wrong. Showing ingratitude for the meal she worked hard to make (whether it was exactly what you wanted) is wrong. Assuming that she owes you sex just because it's your birthday is wrong.
Besides, this LW is saying that he NEVER apologizes. That is not a healthy relationship between two equals. We're not talking about this one incident, where maybe he behaved selfishly and grumpy once. The LW says, "He got mad and stormed out, which is typical. The closest he ever comes to apologizing is angrily blurting out that he's sorry"
What kind of person reacts this way ALL the time? That's not normal.
lovelysoul at March 17, 2011 8:50 PM
Seriously, what kind of ding-dong woman offers her husband a hand-job on his birthday?
A hand-job? On his birthday? Are they are both adults?
And she counts how often they have sex, I guess to ration service.
Her letter just oozes with love and wanton abandon. She won't let go of this until he apologies to her.
No wonder he is unhappy and snappish. I hope he can find a mistress.
Mr. Reasonable at March 17, 2011 9:14 PM
I was just thinking of my 31st birthday. My husband and I drove three hours to see a friend of his, since she was going to be local for only a short time. We got stuck in endless traffic, and she threw up in the back seat of our car. We had dinner, then we drove back.
It wasn't a lot of fun, but you know what? My birthday isn't a Holy Day, where the world must bow to my desires. Shit happens.
MonicaP at March 17, 2011 9:15 PM
Letters like this make me glad to no longer be married.
Labbit at March 18, 2011 4:41 AM
My guy's ex left him on his birthday. That was the day she chose to tell him she needed to go "find herself". He helped her move out.
Since knowing that story, I try to make the day extra special, but I never heard sex was mandatory. We have sex all the time, so it doesn't seem quite lika an appropriate "gift".
Frankly, even if I was sick, I can't imagine staying in bed, doing absolutely nothing for his birthday, just rolling over, spreading my legs, and saying "Here you go...Happy Birthday!" It's kind of arrogant or lazy in my view.
He can have sex any day, but he only gets one day to eat cake!
lovelysoul at March 18, 2011 6:25 AM
When I was married to a sex-obsessesed prick like this, I was relieved when he went to watch porn. "Thank God!" I'd say, "I get a reprieve for the night". Especially if I was sick.
That would probably be one of the reasons you're marriage didn't last. Terming your husband a sex obsessed prick, even in your own mind, doesn't say much for your attitude about men. All men are sex obsessed to some degree, and faulting them for it only breeds resentment.
Angel at March 18, 2011 7:36 AM
LS Says:
"Narcissists never agree they've truly wronged anyone. If they admit wrongdoing at all, they find plenty of blame to place on the other person. In fact, they use the same relativism that you are using..."it's only a matter or opinion...nothing is ever black and white..or really ever right or wrong...it's all in the eyes of the beholder...I don't 'agree' I've done wrong; it's just your opinion.""
I do not believe I was talking about Narcissists in particular. I was discussing the fact that in general people don't always agree they have wronged someone else, and that these people can be normal, rational, and reasonable human beings.
On a more interesting level though. What exactly does someone get by "forcing" an apology out of a narcissist?
An apology that someone doesn't really mean is worthless. An empty apology is as good as none at all unless someone is really only after the satisfaction of controlling what comes out of someone else’s mouth.
I for one value genuine apologies, people can keep the fake ones to themselves.
“That's total BS. Some things are clearly wrong and should be apologized for. Refusing to hug your wife is wrong. Showing ingratitude for the meal she worked hard to make (whether it was exactly what you wanted) is wrong. Assuming that she owes you sex just because it's your birthday is wrong.”
Some things are clearly wrong… like murder, blackmail, grand theft, etc…
Withholding a hug, not properly showing gratitude and making assumptions about sex are the kinds of things that are wrong based upon the circumstances. For example, would it be “wrong” to refuse to hug your spouse after they just cheated on you or beat you? I think not.
The issue I have with your perspective is that you seem to be saying that within the context of a marriage emotional intimacy is to be assumed, expected, and demanded, yet at the same time physical intimacy is NOT to be assumed, expected, and demanded.
Unfortunately, healthy marriages are most often built upon a foundation of emotional AND physical intimacy.
You can’t simultaneously say that spouses can’t ever expect sex, but they can demand hugs whenever they want. If people within a marriage have the right to refuse sex (which I think they do) then they also have the right to refuse hugs (as childish and counterproductive as that activity may be).
There have been times when I have been upset and just wanted to be alone for a while. Am I “wrong” to want to be alone and refuse hugs if I feel like I just need to go through something by myself for a bit? People handle pain and loss in different ways, some people cry, some people scream, some people gather together for support, and some people retreat into a metaphorical cave to handle it on their own. None of these methods is inherently “wrong”, it all depends on the specifics.
I think I understand why the LW is upset in this situation, but I also think I understand why the husband was upset. While his behavior was indeed childish, that is a matter of his inability to properly express himself. That doesn’t mean he was totally unreasonable in feeling hurt about how things developed.
I guess the point is that within a marriage, if the people involved are not receiving what they deem to be an appropriate level of emotional or physical intimacy, the only right they have is to try and fix it, or walk away.
“What kind of person reacts this way ALL the time? That's not normal.”
The kind of person who lacks the emotional and communication tools to express themselves in a way that they feel they can actually get their point across.
You have asked a GREAT question here. What kind of a person just “storms out” when an argument about feelings looms on the horizon? It is the kind of person who never feels like they can ever win an argument over feelings, so they don’t even bother to try.
I'm not saying the husband here is a prize, but the LW also appears to be trying to dictate how he should feel and how he should express those feelings which isn't completely fair.
Reality at March 18, 2011 8:01 AM
I'd also suggest their reading up on the love languages (Gary Chapman has a website). Some of it's so saccharine it makes my teeth hurt, but the concept seems pretty sound: this husband and wife appreciate different things. She thinks it's more loving of her to expend the energy to make him a great meal than to take the easy way out with sex, which seems to be a regular occurrence with them and, hence, not all that special to her as a gesture. He's not seeing that she feels that way and, as was said above, feels cheated that she felt well enough to spend so much time cooking but not well enough to connect physically.*
horrified at March 18, 2011 1:23 PM
"Terming your husband a sex obsessed prick, even in your own mind, doesn't say much for your attitude about men. All men are sex obsessed to some degree, and faulting them for it only breeds resentment."
Well, my ex was sex-obsessed. He loved violent sex (rape porn, mostly of barely legal girls). So the sex wasn't just normal sex on many occasions. He wanted violent fantasies acted out too...which I did for him, for way too long, believing it was my "wifely duty", until I developed enough self-respect to leave. I know what I speak about when I talk about sex-obsessed.
The LW demonstrates many similar traits. The sulking and withdrawing of affection when he doesn't get sex is a key sign. The fact she offered him a BJ (or hand job, depending on interpretation), even while really sick, and after making him a birthday dinner and dessert, also says to me that she's in a relationship where she feels she must perform sexually or else he'll be really mad. Sex is an obligation, not something they share and enjoy together, as a healthy couple does.
Of course, almost all men love sex, and it would be different if she hadn't stated that they had sex regularly. But when a woman gives her man sex regularly and STILL is mistreated on the few occasions she doesn't feel up to it, that is evidence that she is likely with someone who is sex-obsessed.
The bottom line is that he had no reason to respond the way he did. His sexual needs apparently come before her feelings or well-being. Like many here have said, why would anyone even want to have sex with a sick, snotty, drugged up and exhausted spouse? Where's the fun in that?
Everything in the letter suggests that this is a man whose sexuality and emotional maturity is very unhealthy.
lovelysoul at March 18, 2011 3:34 PM
I for one would rather my wife stay in bed and tell me she'd take care of me later then offer me a lame handjob (First, I've never met a girl who did it right, for one thing). But I probably wouldn't want to sleep with a sick woman unless it was to comfort her.
Lovely Soul,
Here is a question for you and your 'connections' and 'making it special' etc.
Ever since I've gotten married, my wife asks me what I want. My answer has always been the same: a birthday (i.e. slow) BJ. Not a truck. Not a video tape which takes her 5 seconds to buy. Not an expensive meal or something which will cost an arm and a leg. I would like ten to 20 minutes of her undivided attention.
Maybe she doesn't feel it's special or maybe she resents it as an obligation. Since she asked and I think it's special and I am the recipient, and I was the one who was asked, are you suggesting that your 'emotional connections' are so important that you can't throw your husband a bone for the hour or so even if you 'aren't in the mood'? That sounds suspiciously like emotional blackmail "You don't make me feel in the mood so until you get your act together, the Vaggie Bar is closed!" (Not your words, but that is where your suggestions lead)
(Please note that I am discussing a general principle not dealing with the LW or a sick girl putting out. I am seeking clarification on 'who is responsible for who can demand what re sex)
flydye at March 18, 2011 3:42 PM
Sorry. I forgot to say: My wife asks me what I want for my birthday.
flydye at March 18, 2011 3:44 PM
"He wanted violent fantasies acted out too...which I did for him, for way too long, believing it was my "wifely duty", until I developed enough self-respect to leave."
I'm sorry you went through that. At least you can share it as a cautionary tale and also a hopeful tale, as you finally did develop self-respect and find someone who knows how to treat another person with love and respect. The excuses people think up for repeated callous, selfish, and even abusive behavior are mind-boggling.
HKatz at March 18, 2011 3:48 PM
Thank you, Hkatz.
Flydye, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but as I understand it, you want your wife to give you a good BJ for your birthday, this was something she asked about and you presumably were very clear about beforehand.
My opinion is that she should honor your request. Certainly on your birthday, but also whenever you have sex, if that is what you enjoy. I'm a big proponent of blow jobs and think most women would have happier husbands and marriages if they learned how to perform this simple and highly rewarding act for their men.
I didn't mean to imply that a woman can say "no" ALL the time...to sex, or to any reasonable request for a sexual act...but I do believe that both parties have the right to say no if they feel unwell or just not in the mood.
It gets down to degrees. If a woman always says no, it's like an employee who constantly calls in sick. Are they entitled to keep their job? No.
But if a good employee calls in sick a few times a year, that is completely understandable and acceptable. What's more, an employer should value such an employee because they know he/she does a good job and shows up for work most of the time.
This LW doesn't sound like so many wives who refuse to do certain sex acts and deprive their men of sex. Therefore, I think the husband should be appreciative of having such a kind and giving wife, and as such, he should have been understanding that she felt badly that night and not up to sex - even if it fell on his birthday. However, he is behaving in the opposite manner. He is behaving as if he is a seriously sexually deprived husband, which it doesn't sound like he is.
As she said, Amy gets letters from men who don't get sex even 3 time a year. Your post indicates that there are men out there truly being deprived of sexual pleasure.
But this guy isn't one of those. If he was, I'd have a different take.
lovelysoul at March 18, 2011 5:58 PM
Lovelysoul Says:
“The bottom line is that he had no reason to respond the way he did. His sexual needs apparently come before her feelings or well-being. Like many here have said, why would anyone even want to have sex with a sick, snotty, drugged up and exhausted spouse? Where's the fun in that?”
That is all well and good, but according to the letter the LW doesn’t expect her husband to apologize for specific behavior. The LW expects her husband to apologize for “being grumpy”.
That is an unreasonable expectation on her part. Where he went wrong wasn’t in being disappointed, being upset, or being grumpy, it was in his failure to properly express those feelings to his wife.
People are allowed to feel disappointed, upset, and grumpy when their special day doesn’t go how they want (brides do this ALL the time on their wedding days even over small or seemingly inconsequential details).
He shouldn’t have to be sorry for feeling grumpy. He should however be sorry that because of his grumpy mood he contributed to his wife feeling alienated from him.
This is a subtle but important difference. Needless to say I am not totally surprised that the LW doesn’t get more apologies out of her husband, the things she wants him to be sorry for are not necessarily reasonable or appropriate. His feelings in this instance can be understood, the way he handled those feelings of disappointment however were childish and unproductive.
I think the real bottom line here is that both of these people have feelings. His feelings were hurt first due to extenuating circumstances, that part is fine, what wasn’t fine was that instead of trying to fix his hurt feelings by having an open and honest discussion with his wife he instead decided to let his wife’s feelings be hurt too. The LW can reasonably expect an apology for something he actually did that hurt her feelings, but she can’t expect an apology for the fact that his feelings were hurt. He gets to have feelings too.
Reality at March 18, 2011 6:16 PM
I didn't mean to imply that a woman can say "no" ALL the time...to sex, or to any reasonable request for a sexual act...but I do believe that both parties have the right to say no if they feel unwell or just not in the mood.
It gets down to degrees. If a woman always says no, it's like an employee who constantly calls in sick. Are they entitled to keep their job? No.
I am actually focusing more on your assertion of emotional connection and fulfillment.
This sort gets to the quip that AA made regarding a woman being the sexual vending machine. She was disparaging the gentleman for sitting there pushing the button and not getting his can of BJ.
Well, it actually goes both ways. You seem to be asserting that the guy is fully responsible to keep plowing in those emotional dollars if he expects anything back.
I agree with you to a degree...but pushing that meme without a HELL of a lot of caveats soon breaks down to a woman demanding that a man be a (Insert Whim here) if he wants a nookie from the machine. This sort of relationship, while not strictly monetary, smacks of a Very Early Profession...and too many women and too much of pop culture seems to slide headlong down that slippery slope.
That guy? Hmm. That's a hard one. IF one assumes the bad faith on his part, then yeah, he's a jerk. She made a meal, he made a request, he got offered a (very lame) substitute and he was surly. That is people. They aren't always 100% understanding. Have you ever been short and say anything you didn't mean?
Now...knowing that, would you like your SO to throw it in your face two days later after you thought the matter was dropped? Neither would I. (Recall, tone if everything. There is a world of difference between a conciliatory 'honey, I'd really like a hug and an apology from you being a grumpy bear two days ago' and a waspish "You could at least give me a hug and an apology from being such a total GRUMP on your birthday after I slaved over food for your ungrateful a$$' But far be it from me to suggest that maybe she's being charitable with her attitude and comments)
But I AM being charitable. It could go both ways. Maybe she was promising him the sun the moon and the stars while high on the meds but couldn't deliver later as MonicaP suggests. Maybe she sat there is a natty bathrobe wheezing how she was going to die but GOD HELP HER she was going to make him his #$%&*@ dinner! Maybe she's hypersensitive to his inability to apologize (NO!) Maybe he's a total ass. We don't have enough information.
I'm sure there were a number of Victorian ladies willing to 'do their duty to England' three times a week too (wink) That doesn't make it a roller coaster.
flydye at March 18, 2011 6:31 PM
Reality, this in no way compares to a wedding day. At worst, this was a simple misunderstanding on a fairly normal day. She tried to make his birthday special, under less than ideal circumstamces, and instead of going with the flow, and realizing (like MonicaP pointed out) that every birthday isn't going to be ideal, he acted grumpy and cold.
I'd say she is being generous calling it "grumpy". When your exhausted and sick wife, who just made you dinner and dessert, asks for a hug, and you respond, "I don't think so!", that goes beyond grumpy.
As I said, my man has never refused me a hug under any circumstances. In fact, my ex never refused me a hug either.
Asking for a hug is a universal peacemaking gesture. She recognized he was angry/disappointed and was trying to put things back on track. Instead, he chose to shut her totally out - that night and the next day.
Under the circumstances, his reaction is extreme.
lovelysoul at March 18, 2011 6:41 PM
You know what? On careful reading (and assuming that the woman is not taking license with any part of her letter...which is NOT automatic), the guy really is a jerk.
But she didn't ask for a hug. She asked for a hug and an admission that he was wrong. And as Reality said: he has feelings to. Are they valid feelings? Are your or my feelings always valid? No. But that doesn't make it less real.
flydye at March 18, 2011 6:48 PM
"Well, it actually goes both ways. You seem to be asserting that the guy is fully responsible to keep plowing in those emotional dollars if he expects anything back."
No, I don't, and there comes a point when a man has to throw in the towel. If you're having to constantly beg for sex, then it's a very one-sided situation. Just as one-sided as when a man (such as my ex, and the LW's husband) demands sex almost all the time, even when it's not enjoyable to his partner.
This is all about balance. Nobody should have to live with a one-sided situation. Relationships involve give and take, and each partner should be doing a fair amount of both.
My suggestion was only about things that could possibly be effective in improving a lagging sex life - mainly those that have fallen off due to neglect, boredom, or familiarity. But those suggestions won't ever work with someone who isn't fairminded and reasonable enough to respond affectionately in return.
Some people are just too selfish to stay with. Sex is a fundamental component of a fulfilling relationship, particularly for men. If a healthy woman is unwilling to give that freely to her partner, this is grounds, in my view, to move on.
But don't let it turn you against all women, or believe that is how they all feel or act. As miserable and one-sided as my marriage was, I never let it ruin my faith in men. I knew there were good men out there, who would appreciate how kind and giving I am, and not exploit that.
The next time, I chose more carefully. I immediately recognized the signs of a selfish spirit, and I avoided anyone exhibiting them. That's how I see that the LW's husband is a bad choice. She has a difficult road ahead with someone like this, and, unless he changes, eventually, she will probably lose her desire for him and stop wanting to please him as much as she apparently still does. Because you can't keep giving when you're getting nothing back.
For instance, in her letter, she didn't mention anything nice he does for her (often these letters start with, "I'm married to the sweetest, most loving guy, who normally treats me well, but...). I take note of things like that.
lovelysoul at March 18, 2011 7:12 PM
Lovelysoul,
“Reality, this in no way compares to a wedding day.”
I’m not sure what your point is here. So it is okay and acceptable for a bride to be upset and grumpy on her wedding day if say she really wanted an outdoor ceremony and it just happened to be raining that day, but it isn’t okay for this husband to be upset and grumpy on his birthday because his wife was under the weather and things didn’t turn out how he wanted?
My point is that it is totally reasonable under both of these circumstances to feel upset, to feel grumpy, to feel hurt… what isn’t acceptable is to allow those feelings to surface in unproductive ways.
It wasn’t “wrong” for him to feel grumpy and upset. It was wrong that he didn’t reach out to his wife and explain how he felt in a manner that would allow them to understand one another.
As a result, her expectation that he apologize for being “grumpy” is unreasonable. She is expecting him to feel how she tells him to feel… but guess what, he was upset and she doesn’t get to tell him how to feel.
She can however expect for him to handle himself in a more productive manner when he is upset. As I tell children when they are sad “use your words”, I don’t tell them they need to feel differently or feel how I expect them to feel or apologize because their feelings do not comport with my expectations.
“I'd say she is being generous calling it "grumpy". When your exhausted and sick wife, who just made you dinner and dessert, asks for a hug, and you respond, "I don't think so!", that goes beyond grumpy.”
This is interesting because I don’t recall an exclamation point being in the letter, that is something you personally added.
You are making this guy MORE grumpy than the LW has described him to be.
Reality at March 18, 2011 7:52 PM
"My point is that it is totally reasonable under both of these circumstances to feel upset, to feel grumpy, to feel hurt… what isn’t acceptable is to allow those feelings to surface in unproductive ways."
I agree with that. We all have feelings, but we also have reasoning ability. Mature people reason through their feelings, asking themselves if their reactions are valid, certainly if the impulse is to place blame on someone else.
The wife could've stated what hurt her more clearly, but I think her husband knows she wasn't upset just because he was grumpy. She was upset because he took his grumpiness out on her.
I've been with my fiance over 3 years and we're getting married in 2 weeks. We're both under quite a bit of wedding and work stress. He is a very even-tempered man, but in these past 3 years, I've occasionally seen him annoyed at employees, grumpy about work problems or other things that didn't quite go as planned. But I can honestly say he has never directed this grumpiness or annoyance AT me.
Not that I'm a perfect person. I make mistakes like anyone else, but he loves me enough to view them as just that - mistakes. He doesn't jump to the more volatile conclusion that I meant to do something to annoy or hurt him.
People who jump to that conclusion are able to
feel justified in being angry because, in their mind, the offense is a calculated attack on them (and their egos), not merely a miscommunication or mistake.
The husband here took his disappointment out on his wife - by refusing to thank her, by refusing to hug her and being cold/distant, not just the night of his birthday, but the following day.
He has every right to feel disappointed or grumpy at not getting laid. We all have our feelings, rational or not. But he isn't justified in taking them out on his wife.
Even if he WAS justified (if the offense was something greater), it's just not smart. Couples who do this are gradually chipping away at the quality of their relationship.
lovelysoul at March 19, 2011 6:47 AM
"Well, my ex was sex-obsessed. He loved violent sex (rape porn, mostly of barely legal girls). So the sex wasn't just normal sex on many occasions. He wanted violent fantasies acted out too...which I did for him, for way too long, believing it was my "wifely duty", until I developed enough self-respect to leave. I know what I speak about when I talk about sex-obsessed."
Well, I'm sorry you went through it, but my question to that is, you must have known something of his sexual proclivities in the first place,so why put up with it in the second place, and marry him in the third place? Unless you never made love to him before you were married,(in this day and age highly doubtful) why cry foul when someone expects you to do the things you did for them before you married them, after you marry them?
Also, I think you are generalizing and criminalizing the majority of men based on the sexual deviancy of one man. As well, this isn't a a case of her being guilted into doing something she didn't want to, over and over. This was a case of her not being able to make love to her husband, which she obviously usually enjoys, giving the impression she could, and her husband acting like a spoiled brat when he realized what was going on.
"He has every right to feel disappointed or grumpy at not getting laid. We all have our feelings, rational or not. But he isn't justified in taking them out on his wife."
He didn't "take them out on his wife". He was justifiably disappointed. He didn't react appropriately. I'm SURE there have been circumstances when you haven't felt like hugging and/or making love to your fiancée, and most especially your ex, over something they did or said that day. You may have reacted more appropriately,(doubtful)but in the end the emotional reaction was the same. I'm also sure there have been times when you acted like a spoiled brat.
They're both to blame.
Angel at March 19, 2011 9:57 AM
"Unless you never made love to him before you were married,(in this day and age highly doubtful) why cry foul when someone expects you to do the things you did for them before you married them, after you marry them?"
I was 19 when I married him, and, no, he did not ask me to do those things until afterwards. It ruined his first marriage, so he knew full well it was something he shouldn't bring into another marriage, so he tried hard not to, for about 2 years, but people with compulsions struggle endlessly against them, and once I was his wife, he probably felt more secure slowly introducing those proclivities again.
"I'm also sure there have been times when you acted like a spoiled brat."
I don't really think so. Maybe it's because I'm in my 40s now, and so is my fiance, that we don't tend to act like brats when things don't go our way. But I also think, for me, it's because I'm with someone who is mature and even-tempered, and therefore, there's no need to react in reaction to his behavior, if that makes any sense.
I certainly did a lot of immature things in my first marriage, in reaction to my ex's immaturity (combined with the fact that I was indeed young and immature myself). It's kind of like a cycle that unhealthy couples get into. If one acts like a selfish jerk, the other turns around and does something to "show" him/her how it feels.
This just adds to the unhealthy drama. And although apologies help, I've come to the conclusion that, in addition to choosing a mature partner, it's best to try really hard not to do anything that needs apologizing for in the first place.
Be kind and loving to each other at every opportunity, even if you're not feeling particularly that way, perhaps especially so. When there's a rift, or disconnection, that is actually the time when a hug will do the most good.
If LW's husband had just been mature enough to extend that hug, there wouldn't be a problem now. But, at this point, both of them are going to feel resentment over this - him for "having" to apologize, and her for having to "make" him. They may move forward, but some degree of damage has occurred, which is unnecessary if they knew how to interact.
I'll bet this incident will come up again and again in future arguments ("you did this...no, you did that on my birthday"). It's the destructive fuel unhealthy couples feed on, and after enough of these incidents, the relationship usually implodes.
lovelysoul at March 19, 2011 10:58 AM
Lovelysoul says:
“The wife could've stated what hurt her more clearly, but I think her husband knows she wasn't upset just because he was grumpy. She was upset because he took his grumpiness out on her.”
I think this is really the heart of the issue here. Neither of these two appear to be effectively communicating their expectations, desires, hurt feelings etc… with each other. The LW doesn’t appear to have effectively communicated the true extent of her illness to her husband, her husband clearly didn’t effectively communicate his disappointment and present a compromise (such as completing their celebration once she was feeling better), she then didn’t effectively communicate what was really bothering her and instead marginalized his feelings (justified or not), he then shut down communication entirely and just walked out the door.
The thing is that they both have reasons to be upset about something, but for whatever reason the other person isn’t understanding where the other is coming from.
I feel like the LW would have had a greater chance for success approaching her husband by explaining that she understood that his birthday didn’t turn out exactly how he wanted, but that she tried her best and would have appreciated that effort being recognized. Then she could have explained that she doesn’t like it when he gets distant because she likes to feel close with him.
That kind of thing at least then opens the door for him to explain where he was coming from and some progress could be made. Telling him that she wants him to be sorry for feeling grumpy after things didn’t exactly go as he had hoped isn’t the best strategy for reaching out to someone (then again neither is shutting down and giving someone the silent treatment).
Healthy relationships aren’t about winners and losers in arguments and getting apologies, they are about working to understand where your partner is coming from.
I think the husband here needs to learn how to express his feelings appropriately to his wife, and the LW needs to present an environment where he can communicate his feelings without being compelled to apologize for how he feels.
“I'll bet this incident will come up again and again in future arguments ("you did this...no, you did that on my birthday"). It's the destructive fuel unhealthy couples feed on, and after enough of these incidents, the relationship usually implodes.”
I think you are absolutely right. I anticipate that unless this situation is resolved in a healthy and mature manner that when her birthday comes around tit for tat childish behavior will emerge. This isn’t a good cycle to be in.
Reality at March 19, 2011 2:04 PM
Bertram,
She offered a handjob when she was sick. According to her, were she healthy, she'd have offered him gymnastics the likes of which were illegal in 30 states and required warm ups. (Since we're all projecting here. Granted, that's an easy offer to make when you don't in fact need to put out, particularly after the fact. Not that girls EVER say that! ;) ) But let's take that at face value.
The rest of your post needs no more comment.
lovelysoul,
Like a lot of folks have mentioned: She meant 'Let's put this behind us as soon as you submit to an admission of guilt'
He heard: 'I'm throwing this back in your face until you submit.'
I'm not impressed with either of them. Less so him.
flydye at March 19, 2011 2:26 PM
Why is everyone disparaging handjobs here and saying it's a second rate alternative? Sometimes the occasional one off the wrist from your partner is nice - there's no pressure on your technique or whether they orgasm, just lie back and enjoy it. My partners who have done that enjoy seeing me happy even if they don't want sex that night, and I like that too. Sometimes it's even put them in the mood when they weren't. Where's the problem? There's always the next night. Hubby *is* a child - with "I want it now" problems.
Ltw at March 20, 2011 6:14 AM
Amy, you are completely correct, the people disagreeing with you are wrong, and LW's husband is the emotional equivalent of a two-year-old who owes his wife a lot more than an apology.
LW should DTMFA. Between being able and willing to cook an entire meal and dessert and still provide a special "message" afterward, the average red-blooded man (as opposed to the weak-willied whining weenies here) would be damned glad to have her. As you pointed out before, LW gets it on three times a week with this joker and you have men writing to you complaining about not getting any for months. Let's not forget how many guys out there complain that their wives never cook, for that matter!
Rozita Tee at March 20, 2011 10:00 AM
Ltw Says:
"Why is everyone disparaging handjobs here and saying it's a second rate alternative?"
I'm not sure if people are exactly "disparaging" hand jobs. I think the response is simply a recognition of the fact that men already have hands and can therefore take care of that kind of thing by themselves.
Maybe a good analogy would between cubic zirconia and diamond. The reason women prefer diamond jewlery over cubic zirconia jewlery isn't because there is something inherently wrong with CZ, it is because diamond is more rare and not as easily obtained.
Reality at March 20, 2011 2:38 PM
Oh c'mon. Rozita Tee is right. The guy is lucky to have a woman who cooks for him and will offer a handjob even when she's sick. That's a good wife, and he's being a jerk not to appreciate her more.
You could compare it to a cubic zirconia only ifa handjob was all she ever gave him...because a woman has to wear her ring all the time, so if it's fake, that would be wrong.
But we're talking about while she's SICK. Have none of you guys ever been sick and on cold meds before? I'm sure you all go down on your wives and give them the best orgasms possible whenever you're sick as a dog. Please.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 2:54 PM
I dunno if this marriage can be saved.
If the wife greets him at home nude, on her knees, with a dog collar round her neck and Vaseline in place, then maybe.
Or maybe he should take her to Taco Bell for her birthday, claiming headache. Then the male spouse should whine that the wife needs to apologize for not gratefully going to Taco Bell. After all, he was feeding her.
Actually, she sounds like a boring, snoring dud. Niggle-nagging dud.
I just hope husband is not the breadwinner, because if he is, he is going to be paying alimony for a long time. Good luck husband, and welcome to America.
Shabbu Shabbu at March 20, 2011 3:07 PM
"Of course, the "three days a week" sentence brings back Woody Allen. A youngish husband might feel sex starved, while his wife feels she is really putting out. I know in my 20s, 14 times a week might be right-on, certainly while on vacation. And I never had complaints"
Yeah, when I was in my 20's, I would have been at least moderately frustrated at 'only' 3 times a week ... twice a day would've been "just perfect", and on vacation, even more. Never would've believed that by mid-30s I am OK with once or twice a week. Every person is different too.
It depends on a few other things as well. Like, she is giving sex 3 times a week, but does she make him feel each time like she really doesn't want to? Maybe, maybe not. The way she phrases it suggests she probably isn't initiating the sex most the time, which can be interpreted as disinterest. It might be less 'more sex' he is craving, then 'more non-disinterested sex'.
Also, people have a natural human tendency to start taking things for granted. ALL PEOPLE, every last human being on planet earth - and it has nothing to do necessarily with 'narcissism', it's just human. I don't care how immune you think you are, you aren't. So what can happen is, if she readily gives sex 3 times a week, he can start almost taking that for granted that he will get that, and then might feel 'cheated' if he doesn't. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bastard, it is just human. If she is naturally generous of spirit most the time, people like that end up being taken advantage of. I don't really know what's the answer. If this is what's happening, then in some way I actually kind of agree with the ultimatum, since it is a way of breaking his sense of absolute entitlement - of saying, no, you can't always have what you want from me when you want. I.e. standing up for herself. On the other hand, it probably isn't the healthiest strategy for the relationship. Better, maybe, to actually talk with him, level-headed, no ultimatums ... tell him 'I feel like you take for granted that I will give you sex / food etc., and feel under-appreciated' or whatever. Try figure out - like adults, calmly - why he feels the way he does, and if it's fair or not. Feeling under-appreciated is dangerous ground in both relationships and jobs.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 3:19 PM
Where does it say she issued an ultimatum? The actions attributed to the LW - sans evidence - just keep getting stranger.
She said that she "still wanted an apology" which is understandable. It doesn't say she refused to do anything unless she got one - just that he stormed out, which he typically does rather than say he's sorry.
It's nearly impossible to have a relationship with someone who never apologizes or accepts accountability for hurtful behavior. That is what indicates narcissism, not his taking sex for granted.
As Amy says, "A person who doesn't feel bad about making you feel bad has no reason to feel bad about doing it again."
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 3:38 PM
"Healthy enough to cook a full course meal, (EWWW, Get the hell away from the food!!!) complete with dessert, AND offer him a BJ, but not healthy enough to lie underneath him (if nothing else) and help him to do his thing?"
Angel, you have a good point there. I must admit, as a man, that if you offered me the choice, on my birthday, of takeout and sex, or a fancy home-cooked meal with a big 'NO SEX' sign hanging over it, it's no contest, I'd take the sex. Especially on my birthday - as lame and childish as that might sound to some.
In general I think guys don't give a crap about fancy meals. You could feed me a week-old grilled cheese sandwich and if it came with sex as desert, I'd be happy. In all my 34 years of birthdays, I cannot think of one where I thought "gee, I wish I could have a fancy or romantic meal for my birthday". Never remotely crossed my mind, never will. I can think of many though where I wished to get laid or get a blowjob. Ladies, for a guy, a romantic dinner is no substitute for sex. Sorry if it all seems primitive but that's how we are wired.
It's almost like she went to so much effort in the meal, to try compensate for the fact that she intended to not offer sex ... like she was avoiding sex ... and to pick his birthday specifically to not offer sex, the one day she can be sure he will want it and will feel 'reasonable entitlement' --- it's almost like she wanted to 'stage a showdown' on the issue.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 3:40 PM
"I'm kind of curious about all the guys saying the LW should have had sex with her husband, even though she didn't feel well and didn't want to."
As Angel said, clearly she was well enough to cook a big fancy meal. But thing is, to a degree, men and women both can often 'get into the mood' with a modicum of effort - e.g. making time, relaxing, just thinking about it - and it's important to actually do so, since a healthy sex life is important in most relationships. "The Mood" is not something random and unpredictable and external, that strikes women when the planets align in a certain way. But yeah ...
"If you were having (presumably) enthusiastic sex three times a week, why would you WANT to have sex with your wife when she wasn't into it and didn't feel like it?"
... all this depends on this core presumption: How "enthusiastic" is the sex the rest of the time? I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. But if it is enthusiastic 3 times a week, and she was then just sick, I honestly would not have a problem at all making an exception, and if that's the case, this guy's being an ass. But I suspect there may be more at play here.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 3:47 PM
"It's almost like she went to so much effort in the meal, to try compensate for the fact that she intended to not offer sex ... like she was avoiding sex ... and to pick his birthday specifically to not offer sex, the one day she can be sure he will want it and will feel 'reasonable entitlement' --- it's almost like she wanted to 'stage a showdown' on the issue."
Good grief. There's nothing in the letter to suggest any of that. We can't just make up crap when faced with these letters. Plus, Amy generally finds out more, and if she thought the LW was some vindictive, frigid type, I suspect her advice would've been different.
Jumping to the conclusion that she "meant" to get sick and was doing this all to hurt her husband is the same kind of paranoid logic the husband appears to be using to get so angry at her.
If you live with someone you trust so little that you would assume she faked her sickness, or was lying about feeling worse after cooking dinner (have you ever had a cold? They usually either get worse or better, not stay at the same level), then you should leave.
The LW would have to be a pretty tricky character to fake sickness, then offer a BJ or hand job, just to get out of having sex...that really doesn't even make sense. She could've simply said she was sick, not made dinner, and gone to bed. Obviously, she cares about her husband, but it doesn't sound like he cares much for her.
And guys - there is no rule about getting laid on your birthday, at least none most of us women are aware of. If you feel a sense of entitlement about that, get over it. Your birthday is not so special that events or illness may not interfere with it. That's life.
If this was a husband writing in that his wife got angry and refused to hug him because he was so sick that he could only make her a home-cooked meal rather than take her out to a 5 star restaurant on her birthday - and then wouldn't even apologize for her spoiled behavior - she'd be skewered.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 4:06 PM
Lovelysoul,
I don’t think Rozita Tee is “right” on a large portion of what they said, generally speaking anyone who jumps to the “no true scottsman” fallacy to make their argument doesn’t have a great case. This is why I didn’t talk about their points and instead attempted to address Ltw’s point about hand jobs.
“You could compare it to a cubic zirconia only ifa hand job was all she ever gave him...because a woman has to wear her ring all the time, so if it's fake, that would be wrong.”
You can’t look at this situation from a female perspective to accurately gauge this situation. Afterall, I’m pretty sure most men don’t care that much about the difference between diamonds and CZ’s either.
Men get women diamonds not because men like diamonds better, but because women like diamonds better. The reason why women like diamonds better isn’t because they look nicer than CZ, or because they are of higher quality than CZ (generally speaking man-made CZ crystals are flawless), they like them better because they are rarer, more expensive, and have a higher status.
Not that men consider hand jobs to be “bad”, but they really are the a CZ of sex acts from the perspective of most men.
Keep in mind I wasn’t addressing this specific situation when I made that comparison so sickness doesn’t come into the equation, I was trying to generate an analogy that could give people a common point of comparison.
Reality at March 20, 2011 4:13 PM
"Right - and for a good marriage to work, both partners have to be giving and understanding of each other."
In order to 'understand' the other, you first need to have proper communication. The guy may be an ass, maybe not, maybe they're both just ordinary folk, but neither LW nor her husband are capable of proper communication. I don't get the impression she's a bad person, in fact I suspect (as I said before) that is probably one of those people who are generous of spirit and end up being walked over, and she probably just feels under-appreciated. I think she 'meant well', even if she made a mistake about her birthday offering.
"Jumping to the conclusion that she "meant" to get sick"
Did you even read what I wrote? I never said any such thing or that she 'faked' the sickness, honestly, that's totally absurd. Don't put words in my mouth, please, and try to argue with what I actually wrote, not with something made-up that came entirely 100% out of your imagination.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 4:21 PM
"And guys - there is no rule about getting laid on your birthday, at least none most of us women are aware of. If you feel a sense of entitlement about that, get over it. Your birthday is not so special that events or illness may not interfere with it. That's life."
It's not about what someone wants, it's about whether or not their SO actually cares enough to care what they might want - which you clearly don't. If you really don't give a shit what your husband wants on his birthday, and in fact, worse, you treat the very idea that he should have the cheek to have any birthday desire at all with contempt, as you are doing -- then I wish you the best of luck with that attitude, is all I can say.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 4:24 PM
Lovelysoul Says:
"And guys - there is no rule about getting laid on your birthday, at least none most of us women are aware of."
You are absolutely correct. There is no rule that requires that anyone ever get laid (technically not even on ones honey moon). Sex isn't a "right" that people can exercise.
But by the same token, there is no "rule" about getting hugs on demand either. There is no "rule" about getting presents on your birthday either.
People aren't "entitled" to sex, or hugs, or presents.
These are things people engage in on a voluntary basis for people they care about, people they love, and people they want to be happy.
This is why I am having trouble understanding why you keep advocating the special status of hugs and non-sexual affection and down playing the importance of sexual affection.
Just to be clear, non-sexual affection is really important to women and not as important to men, sexual affection is really important to men and not as important to women.
Keep in mind that at the moment I am talking in general here and not about this one specific situation.
Being sick is a perfectly reasonable situation to avoid having sex with people AND to avoid hugging others. Sometimes when you are sick you just want to lay down and rest which is completely understandable.
Reality at March 20, 2011 4:30 PM
"It's not about what someone wants, it's about whether or not their SO actually cares enough to care what they might want - which you clearly don't. If you really don't give a shit what your husband wants on his birthday, and in fact, worse, you treat the very idea that he should have the cheek to have any birthday desire at all with contempt, as you are doing -- then I wish you the best of luck with that attitude, is all I can say."
My soon-to-be husband would not "expect" sex on his birthday. Like I said, we have an amazing sex life all year long. Plus we go to places like "Hedonism" and have even more exciting, adventurous sex than the average couple has, so sex wouldn't be a particulary original gift for us.
Especially if I was ill and had just taken a bunch of cold meds, he wouldn't even WANT to have sex. My man likes to pleasure me - that gives him pleasure too. Knowing I was too sick to fully enjoy the experience would not be a turn on for him.
And I assure you he'd he'd never sulk and refuse to hug me....over sex or anything.
Maybe he loves me more than some of you guys (and the LW's husband) seem to love your partners. You view relationships and sex, in particular, like it's on some kind of transactional or barter system. That's not what great sex is based on at all. If the only sex you're having is somebody lying underneath you because YOU need it, then you don't know much about truly hot sex.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 5:06 PM
Lets see - woman claims to be sick, but still spends hours slaving in the kitchen. Warning definition of wonderful is entierly subjective.
guy gets upset? that he got no sex, according to the LW he turned down her offer(as he should have given she was apparently sick) Nothing about his being grumpy until the next morning.
So the guy after spending a sexless birthday night in bed with a sick woman coughing and hacking up snot all night long hes a liitle grumpy?
And when his wife asks what wrong - he honest about his feelings with her. His reward for being honest? Well he gets breated and emotionally blackmailed about his feelings.
She didnt ask him to apologise for how he behaved - which is entierly reasonable.
She passive aggressively demanded he apologise for his feelings and on top of that she told him exactly what to say when he apologised.
Neither of these people are catches. Seems to me their a bordreline enabler couple
lujlp at March 20, 2011 5:16 PM
You know, now that I think about this, the immaturity is quite bad. He didn't get sex on his birthday and totally threw his toys out the cot. Grow up! And she had a "terrible cold" (come on) and made like merely cooking a meal was sheer martyrdom. Man, I can't wait to see how this couple handles REAL adversity, like illness in the family, or a child with special needs, or just coping with the stresses of raising children (during which you still get colds).
The true test of a relationship is not the good times, but the tough times. My parents soldiered on with every aspect of life through much, MUCH worse circumstances with nary a complaint, and the idea of even mentioning a cold is actually strange to me, we never stopped anything just for a cold.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 5:19 PM
You have things wrong, Luj. He refused her hand job, then...
"Later, when I asked for a hug as we got into bed, he said, "I don't think so."
This was after she struggled on cold meds to make him a nice birthday dinner, which apparently she shouldn't have bothered to do because it didn't make her "look" sick enough. Apparently, unless she looks like death warmed over, a woman is supposed to put out, especially on birthdays.
I guess her saying, "I'm just too sick" doesn't cut it if she appears like she's still mobile.
Ick...is all I can say to this view of sexual obligations.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 5:25 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1943785">comment from LobsterWhen you have real affection for another person, really care about their welfare, and vice versa, all your behavior comes straight out of that. The combo of two people who care deeply for each other is very important. I've always been of the mind that, when you don't have time for full-on sex for an hour, you throw your partner a blow job or a quickie. We all do things we don't particularly feel like from day to day, and sex beats picking up your dog's tiny poops or washing the pots and pans. People tend to put it in another category, one that's not part of the "Gotta do what you gotta do" stuff. (And by that I don't mean that you dislike sex, just that sometimes you need to throw your partner a fuck when you'd really rather roll over and sleep.) Just like you can get rats if you let the dishes pile up unwashed, you can find a rat working its way into your relationship if you don't maintain in the sex dept.
Amy Alkon at March 20, 2011 5:27 PM
Exactly, Amy. She offered him a blow job (my interpretation - I didn't know people still did hand jobs beyond high school). So, I think she was making an effort to give him some sort of sexual enjoyment, even while feeling lousy.
Maybe she should've just said, "Jump on top for a quickie", but her failure to do that certainly doesn't justify his reaction. His refusal to even hug her certainly doesn't warm things up between them. Why don't men get that if they're feeling sexually-deprived being pissy and mean to their wives is the LAST thing they should do?
I thought your response to LW was wonderful and dead-on.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 5:40 PM
"Later, when I asked for a hug as we got into bed, he said, "I don't think so."
I agree that behavior is ugly. Even if I'm angry with my wife, if she asks for a hug, my heart usually melts instantly. Either he is very selfish, or there are other much deeper problems running here we don't know about. They should get couples therapy.
"This was after she struggled on cold meds to make him a nice birthday dinner"
I.e. she struggled to do something he probably didn't really want. I suspect she meant well, but she apparently didn't really think to consider what he actually wanted, and assumed he would appreciate a dinner. But to a guy - and sorry to be nasty - that sounds booor-ing. A "nice birthday dinner" - urgh - that's kind of like when you get boring socks as a birthday gift from a relative and then you're supposed to politely say you love the gift.
But all this could've been avoided with better communication from the start. He should've expressed what he wanted or didn't want clearer, or negotiated a different day if she felt sick, or to do something less stressful.
In fact, if I see my wife is sick or feeling tired, I usually offer to either cook or get takeout. Partnerships are about helping carry the load.
Lobster at March 20, 2011 5:48 PM
Well, I will think twice from now on before cooking a birthday dinner. lol I had no idea guys hated the idea so much, or think it's so boring.
I suspect most women didn't know that either. We think you'll be disappointed if we don't at least try to make your favorite food and dessert.
Personally, I know my guy would rather we go to the track and bet on horses, which is what we usually do.
lovelysoul at March 20, 2011 5:59 PM
The guys I know love a meal with their favorite foods, whether home-cooked or being taken to their favorite restaurant; if it's followed by good beer or wine, even better. Their reaction is usually one of enthusiasm, appreciation and a good appetite. To each his own I guess.
The ideal combo is table AND bed in an ideal evening, but the point is mature adults are flexible and know that sometimes they'll need to postpone pleasure for a little while because something has come up (even the ones without kids know this - but the ones with kids, well... when you've got kids, especially young kids, flexibility and equanimity are key when making plans; a sense of humor doesn't hurt either). I can't imagine the letter-writer's husband being able to handle the unpredictability and demands of an infant in his care... though who knows, sometimes a deeply immature person will rise to the occasion and be inspired by parenthood. Sometimes (and not just in a Hollywood movie).
Anyway, nothing justifies a neurologically healthy adult acting like a preschooler if it's done on a regular basis and without any awareness that it's wrong.
HKatz at March 20, 2011 7:45 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1944539">comment from HKatzGregg, who cooks these wonderful dinners for me, is thrilled if I just make him bacon and eggs.
Eight years in, I think we really appreciate each other -- as people and for the nice things we do for each other. That directs how we treat each other.
Amy Alkon at March 20, 2011 10:23 PM
I suspect she meant well, but she apparently didn't really think to consider what he actually wanted, and assumed he would appreciate a dinner.
Exactly, Lobster. Like I said earlier, neither of these people gets what the other appreciates. I don't think that LW was pulling a bait and switch. I think she sees sex as not much of a special occasion thing since they're having it regularly. I think she saw the meal as being the special part and the sex as something that would have happened anyway, birthday or not.
I see no indication from this letter that hubby expected sex as an entitlement for his birthday. Rather, I agree with the others who have said that his perception was that she had the energy for dinner but not for what he sees as more special. Not that it was the reality, mind you: I also agree that she probably just ran out of steam but had intended to have sex. It's unclear if LW was being very conspicuously vocal about her powering through her cold, but I can totally see how offering the "massage" could have been interpreted badly. It could have easily been seen as her sighing and playing the martyred wife whose husband won't leave her alone until he gets his. Again, not that I necessarily think that was the reality, just looking at how their actions could have been interpreted. I think hubby was absolutely wrong in his handling of the situation, like Amy's great line about the "sex vending machine" says.
An emotionally healthy husband doesn't act like a put-upon child, but an emotionally healthy wife doesn't act like that man's mommy, either. I agree with flydye that neither of these people are any great prize in their current states.
Gregg, who cooks these wonderful dinners for me, is thrilled if I just make him bacon and eggs.
Precisely, Amy. This is what emotionally healthy people do: they recognize and appreciate the other's efforts and intentions rather than just focusing on how their own have been misinterpreted. LW and her husband should take note.
NumberSix at March 21, 2011 12:12 AM
"An emotionally healthy husband doesn't act like a put-upon child, but an emotionally healthy wife doesn't act like that man's mommy, either. I agree with flydye that neither of these people are any great prize in their current states."
Seriously N6? How is making a dinner for your man on his birthday emotionally unhealthy or playing mommy? How can you presume she's "no great prize" based on any of her actions here? Is it because she cooks and has sex regularly or because she expects her husband to apologize after he's been rude and immature?
Like I said, I think most women would presume that they should do something more than offering sex as a "gift". Unless my husband came to me and specifically said, "All I want for my birthday is sex", I wouldn't dream of only offering him sex - especially since we have it regularly. It would seem kind of lame.
And I can also understand why, with her not feeling well, she chose a homecooked dinner as an alternative to a more elaborate celebration, rather than thinking, "I'll do absolutely nothing for him but offer a Nyquil-fueled quickie later. That'll be so much fun!"
Her actions are completely normal. I think some of the guys here are projecting what THEY would want, in their wildest fantasies, and it's a bit more titillating seeing that we're discussing some strange woman and what she should do for her husband, so it's easy (and more exciting) to suggest she should've skipped dinner entirely, and just laid on her back with a big bow on her coochie.
But, realistically, judging by her husband's maturity level, as stated in the letter, there is nothing to indicate that he would've been as satisfied with this as some of our posters. My guess is that he would've then been upset that he didn't get fed, and shut her out in exactly the same manner...and THAT is the main problem here.
Forget sex. We could be discussing any marital issue or a variety of ways she might disappoint him as a wife - leaving the cap off the toothpaste, failing to fold the laundry, or properly clean the house, all of the annoying things that occur in a marriage - but the focus should not be on what she should/could've/would've done differently, but on how toxic his style of responding is to their marriage.
lovelysoul at March 21, 2011 5:05 AM
I don't see how "massage" can be read as "blow job."
The wife was holding out a hand-job on hubbie's b-day. And feeling saintly and then martyred as a result. And nagging hubbie for an apology after the whole event (non-event) had blown over.
Oooof.
Bow-wow, thake the wife back to the pound, and try a different breed.
Guys: Some women are Labradors, always happy and ready to go; others are poodles, high-strung nervous and nippy; others are like collies, possessive and watchful.
Once you learn how to compare women to dog-breeds, you will know how to pick a mate suitable for you.
Like dogs, women cannot change their basic make-up. You should co-habitate for a couple of years before getting married. Woe unto you if you marry the wrong breed, as did our hubbie in question here.
He married a mutt-bitch.
BOTU at March 21, 2011 10:53 AM
Yeah, BOTU, I bet you go down on your woman even when you're sick as a dog and give her the best possible orgasms (not!).
More likely you're whining in bed expecting your "dog" to fetch.
lovelysoul at March 21, 2011 11:01 AM
Lovely Soul-
I am a healthy tiger, with all that implies. And tigers do not change their stripes.
But spread your legs baby, and I will hump you doggy style.
Felines and canines together, making love, not war. It's a wonderful world.
BOTU at March 21, 2011 2:27 PM
"Eight years in, I think we really appreciate each other -- as people and for the nice things we do for each other"
Just to be clear, I do very much appreciate every time my wife prepares any food for me, no matter how simple. In fact I *prefer* simple ... why make life harder than it is already by adding unnecessary levels of effort in the kitchen, you know? I would just feel bad if she went to lots of effort. I'm just saying it's definitely not my idea of an exciting *birthday present* (and other comments from men on this thread seem to echo similar sentiment), and that what is lacking here, is that she didn't seem to really consider asking him what he would actually want.
Lobster at March 21, 2011 4:07 PM
@ls "But, realistically, judging by her husband's maturity level, as stated in the letter, there is nothing to indicate that he would've been as satisfied with this as some of our posters."
For the record, I tend to agree his behavior is far worse here. She sounds like an otherwise giving person, if a bit emotionally immature.
For his part, he may just actually be very sexually frustrated. Re-reading the letter, it actually sounds like the birthday incident was less of a big deal, and that his problem is a more general sexual frustration. Some men are just very horny and less than once a day may just not do it for him. A mismatch in sex drive in a relationship can cause resentment to build up. Especially if combined with his immaturity and feelings of entitlement to, as Amy said, his 'sex vending machine'.
Re-reading the letter, I see her main complaint is also actually not this incident, but his general inability to apologize for anything, even when he does something mean. I can be an ass sometimes but if I know I was in the wrong, I always apologize, end of story. I had a girlfriend who also had a general inability to apologize for anything, ever, even when she did obviously ugly things, and after five years of that, I can tell you it can become very frustrating. At some point I decided to start insisting, which was around the time the relationship ended (because I generally grew a backbone and she liked walking over people).
Lobster at March 21, 2011 4:33 PM
"and that what is lacking here, is that she didn't seem to really consider asking him what he would actually want."
But again, this is an outside interpretation. Because there's nothing to suggest from the letter itself that she didn't know or didn't ask. I know guys who request special bday foods and meals or make reservations to a good restaurant they like. The letter-writer's husband might be one of them. To each his own. Maybe she was worried that if she didn't make the meal he liked he would have reacted just the way he wound up reacting anyway.
So we don't know for sure what his preferences were or what he usually requests for his birthday; maybe he never requested sex but just assumed it would be a given (and had she been healthy, it would have been). But when (gasp! Perfidy! Infamy!) his wife felt wiped out by a cold by the end of the day, thus postponing their next full-fledged sexual encounter by like 24 hours maybe, he reacted like a sulking lad of four. As he's done repeatedly before.
Living with someone like that, you knock yourself out trying to stay on their good side and appease their moods, and it ultimately doesn't work, because they'll inevitably find a misstep in your actions and use it as an excuse to pick fights, sulk, lose their temper, or in more extreme cases blow-up.
And they're never never wrong either, so they won't apologize. The letter-writer's exasperated request for an apology was misguided, but when you've come up against this kind of behavior enough times you want just a little acknowledgement, something, from that other person (as you mention with your ex-girlfriend and your frustrations and how you started insisting, which sounds like what the letter-writer did here). This might be her first step towards figuring out they're just not compatible.
HKatz at March 21, 2011 4:44 PM
"This might be her first step towards figuring out they're just not compatible."
And by that I mean, he's probably best compatible with someone who has less of a backbone.
HKatz at March 21, 2011 4:46 PM
How is making a dinner for your man on his birthday emotionally unhealthy or playing mommy?
Maybe you should read what I actually wrote. I never said that she was acting like his mommy for making him dinner. I was restating what I wrote in an earlier post, where I said she was acting like his mommy for demanding an apology from him in her words. I didn't say she was emotionally unhealthy for making him dinner, I said she was emotionally unhealthy for getting so caught up in how she was offended that she didn't think about figuring out what her husband's behavior might actually mean. Which could have maybe been accomplished by, I don't know, asking him. Now, maybe that wouldn't have done any good and she'd still be in the same boat with a man who refuses to act like an adult, but at least she'd know she tried that option.
How can you presume she's "no great prize" based on any of her actions here? Is it because she cooks and has sex regularly or because she expects her husband to apologize after he's been rude and immature?
I can assume she's no great prize based on many of her actions: her refusal to see her husband's point of view (at least to try, even if he is a jerk), her putting words in her husband's mouth for an apology, her "calling him" on stuff instead of trying to discuss things calmly and rationally. Like I just said, maybe any effort on her part would be for naught, but she should try some other options since her current ones haven't been working.
Her actions are completely normal.
Yikes. "Calling" men on things instead of calm discussion, refusal to let go of your own indignation for just a second, and acting mommy-like and writing out your own apologies are normal? Glad I'm abnormal in those ways.
Like I said, I think most women would presume that they should do something more than offering sex as a "gift".
Like I said, too.
I also said that hubby is no great prize, either. He refuses to see his wife's point of view, he acts like a child when he's upset, he withdraws affection to get back at his wife, he blurts out insincere "I'm sorry"s and storms out of the room. But hubby didn't write in, she did, so I'm advising her on ways to possibly change her relationship. If he had written in, I'd be saying the things to him.
I think you did hit the nail on the head at the end of your post, though, lovelysoul. This one issue is indicative of how this couple traverses their difficulties. Which is to say not very well. Neither of them. I still advise her changing her behavior to see what happens (because, again, she's the one writing and she only has control over her own behavior), but if that doesn't work, she should suggest counseling so someone outside the marriage can try to get them to talk to each other better than they have been.
NumberSix at March 21, 2011 8:56 PM
Also, lovelysoul, if you think I'm taking the husband's side, I'm not. My statement about LW being no great prize was followed up with "in [her] current state." That current state is likely the result of this relationship wearing on her and exacerbating some negative qualities.
I think LW has a much, much better chance of changing than her husband does. She does not have as far to go, I don't think. I think the main thing she should do is to let go of her indignation and try to calmly talk things out with her husband if possible. That indignation is getting in her way since it just builds and builds over the course of a relationship if there's no outlet. It sounds as if this couple has had this same argument about different things and in varying degrees for quite some time. I think it'll be harder for the immature, petulant door-slammer to want to change his behavior, but I do think she should make a good faith effort before calling it quits.
NumberSix at March 21, 2011 9:02 PM
lovelysoul,
I find the assertion that the rest of us are 'projecting' sort of laughable considering all the projecting onto her motives and intentions. She was 'going to give him great sex' but she ran out of steam. She just 'wanted affection'; she wasn't going for any dominance play. She was 'long suffering and patient' not dragging around as a martyr.
See, we don't know these things. SHE thinks she's pure as the driven snow.
My point is this. She could be a semi frigid woman, playing necrophilic 3 times a week, who moaned and groaned, rolling her eyes as she cooked the tater tots and finalized it with 'O KAY! I'll give you a frigging handjob already!'
as much as she was Betty Croaker, willing to go down on her hubby even as her throat was closing as her illness drove her almost to pass out.
I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong. I'm saying that tone changes a lot of these things and it's entirely possible she added fuel to the fire.
For example. You say something hurtful to your hubby. For some reason you snapped out at him because of a confluence of events, including it being partially his fault. The next day, you feel like an ass and know you did wrong.
If your SO seems willing to drop it, do you let the matter get dropped? Without dealing with his immaturity to not simply postponeing the festivities, he might have thought the matter over. Well...guess again.
And I'm glad that your sexual activities are based solely upon your whim and not, you know, obligation. That's one thing that irritates me about women: If you demand re marriage that the other person foresake all others, it is a CRIME to then decide that you can foresake him as well. There damn well IS an obligation. Otherwise, you as a spouse(Generic) are essentially forcing the other spouse into celibacy. How fair is that?
flydye at March 21, 2011 10:32 PM
I don't think it's fair either. Of course, sex *is* an obligation, but we try not to talk about it in those terms, in the same sense that we're all going to die, but we don't talk about that in order to stay positive and happy. Focusing on the obligation of sex isn't smart, especially for a man (or woman) who is getting laid quite frequently. All you'll do is kill the desire your spouse has to please you.
I'm never made to feel like sex is an obligation, therefore, I really LOVE having sex with the man I'm with. If he started expecting or demanding it on certain days or times, or on a set schedule, that would totally ruin my enthusiasm. Most of us don't like being told what to do, even when we know we're supposed to do something.
I know that's a tricky little mental thing, but I'm just telling you guys that it works. If you're fortunate enough to have a woman who finds sex with you truly fun and exciting, don't ruin it by sulking or throwing a tantrum on the odd occassion she's sick or just not in the mood.
"I can assume she's no great prize based on many of her actions: her refusal to see her husband's point of view (at least to try, even if he is a jerk)"
You can't see a jerk's point of view. A reasonable, sane person just can't connect those dots. Plus, I'm assuming she's already tried because she sounds, to me, like someone who is a pleaser...and he sounds, to me, like someone who can't be pleased.
If this was one incident, my take would be different. I would agree with you that maybe this is something she could fix by changing her approach, but she specifically let us know that this is a pattern. He typically reacts immaturely, storming off rather than taking responsibility for his actions. Odds are, he can't always be right and her wrong, especially if this incident is any indication.
It's impossible to productively communicate with someone who completely shuts down and runs away like that. The only thing they'll accept is totally dropping the subject and moving on, which it sounds like she has been doing, but she's getting tired of it.
She wrote into Amy to ask how she can deal with someone who never admits wrongdoing, and the answer is that you can't. Amy stopped just short of telling her to get a divorce.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 1:43 AM
"Yikes. "Calling" men on things instead of calm discussion, refusal to let go of your own indignation for just a second, and acting mommy-like and writing out your own apologies are normal? Glad I'm abnormal in those ways."
I was just talking to a friend about this. She has been in a really bad relationship for the past several years with a man who is very immature. The bottom line is that he really doesn't want to be a husband...he wants his freedom.
So, she responded to this by trying to tighten the marital boundaries, and the more he strained against them - wanting to go out, get drunk, flirt with other women, etc - the more controlling she became.
However, she's not normally a controlling person. The strains of trying to keep someone who didn't really want to be there - trying to "make" someone love her who wasn't really capable - just provoked that response.
Likewise, I don't think LW will typically be "calling" men on their behavior. She's just reacting this way because she's with a childish man, which naturally provokes mommy-type behavior. If she was in a relationship with a mature guy, I suspect she would be fine.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 2:02 AM
"Exactly, Amy. She offered him a blow job (my interpretation - I didn't know people still did hand jobs beyond high school). So, I think she was making an effort to give him some sort of sexual enjoyment, even while feeling lousy.
Maybe she should've just said, "Jump on top for a quickie......"
My lovelysoul, you DO turn on a dime. How come when dozens of other people tell you the same thing in different words, you argue? You should have been a politician.
Angel at March 22, 2011 6:30 AM
You missed my point, Angel. I didn't argue about that. I'm arguing that this woman is in a no-win situation. If she'd skipped making dinner only to offer him sex, as the guys are maintaining she should've done, he probably would've been mad that she didn't feed him or make a fuss over his birthday. When asked what's wrong and why he won't hug her, he'd whine, "Because I'm HUNGRY."
Sure, she could've slaved away on cold meds to make dinner AND offer him sex, and maybe...just maybe...he'd be content for that one night, but the next time she doesn't do something perfectly, or fails to live up to his expectations, he'll still react immaturely and still be unapologetic for it.
The bottom line is that no one should have to cow tow to a personality like that just to keep peace and receive affection. Your husband should still show you love and kindness even when things don't go exactly as he wants.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 6:55 AM
Lovelysoul, I AND the men are maintaining that if she wanted to do anything at all for his birthday, she should have said:
**ck the dinner,(which she can phone in) and loaded herself up with Nyquil(:D), taken a nice hot bath, (which would have made her feel much better and hubby could have scrubbed her back or joined her....) and jumped into bed (please girls somethin SEXY to wear...)where she should have been anyway. She most likely would have gotten a massage out of the deal, if she wanted one. It's what he wanted for his birthday, I feel very confident in saying all men do.
That's not to say that he didn't act like an overgrown six year old, because he did. BUT, she got his hopes up with the dinner. This, to my mind, takes a helluva lot more effort then sex, and gave the image she was well, as the did the halfassed offer of a whatever the hell that was. (Anyone figure that out yet?)
It's like a husband coming home to a wife with a huge gift wrapped box with a big shiny bow for her birthday, only for her to unwrap a stove. I, personally, would appreciate the stove but secretly be a little pissed.
He didn't handle it in the best way, obviously. He acted like a spoiled man-brat. I personally don't blame him for it, because the wife wasn't thinking in terms of what HE would want, rather in terms of what A) What she would want, not him, and B) Looked best on her part.
I think that if she made more of an effort to understand his needs in the first place, and been a little more selfish in hers, this never would have happened.
They both need to understand each other better, and she needs to give a little more of herself if she wants this marriage to thrive, let alone survive. Her attitude about sex needs some work, he needs to stop acting like a man-brat, and she needs to stop with the control issues.
And they both need to grow up.
Angel at March 22, 2011 7:36 AM
And really, lovelysoul, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Not a dire forecast for the relationship. Sometimes people act like dicks. Loving spouses forgive them for it and don't hold grudges and extort apologies.
Angel at March 22, 2011 7:46 AM
"How come when dozens of other people tell you the same thing in different words, you argue? You should have been a politician."
Other people are also arguing similarly to Lovelysoul, myself included, and reading the situation as it's stated in the letter. Your line is actually quite worthy of a politician ;)
One of the guys wrote above about an ex-girlfriend who never apologized. Basically at some point he began to insist on apologies (sound familiar?) or some sign of accountability because he got fed up by her immaturity and her walking all over him. It's generally difficult to live with someone who constantly behaves that way and also treats your every misstep (whether it's your fault or not) as something to be punished.
But as the letter-writer found out (and others in this kind of situation find out), asking for an apology isn't going to work. Mature people will offer one on their own. Immature people with mood swings and temper tantrums won't, and asking won't help. And this behavior of finding fault and getting into snits and tantrums will typically keep on going. No changing it. So either you stay and keep tiptoeing around the other person and lying flat and acquiescent as a doormat... or maybe it's time to leave for a healthier relationship.
(This growth of backbone is a source of dismay for immature, petulant and demanding people of course. Makes it harder to find people who will stay with them, if that's what they even want.)
HKatz at March 22, 2011 7:53 AM
"Sometimes people act like dicks."
Operative word being sometimes. Not regularly, as the letter states.
And when a mature man or woman screws up, they apologize ( for example see Lobster's comment above - that when he's an ass, he owns up to it). This is something you teach children from a young age. No excuse for a grown-up regularly failing to be accountable for his actions.
HKatz at March 22, 2011 7:57 AM
"**ck the dinner,(which she can phone in)"
Again, absolutely nothing in the letter indicates that he wouldn't have wanted a great dinner; maybe it's something he requested or that she had asked him about. There are guys who request special bday foods; he might have been one of them. He probably would have whined about the lack of a dinner. Great dinner and full sex, and nothing less.
Also, even if your advice might have worked in this one situation, there would have been some other situation in which he behaved this way. Another straw coming along to break the camel's back. You can only appease someone like this for so long... this isn't a one-time occurrence - that's the emphasis of the letter.
HKatz at March 22, 2011 8:05 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1950708">comment from HKatzWhat John Gottman calls "repair attempts" are incredibly important. When Gregg and I have even the slightest friction between us, I make a little pouty face or ask for a kiss. It doesn't matter who got a little peckish. I just don't want to have that tone ever in our relationship, and act quickly to mop up. We mostly (96% of the time) have a very sweet tone between us. I love, though, when he catches himself, and says something (usually during a Gregg giving Amy computer support session!) like, "Just open the fucking folder!...darling." Heh heh.
Amy Alkon at March 22, 2011 8:14 AM
Lovelysoul Says:
“I don't think LW will typically be "calling" men on their behavior. She's just reacting this way because she's with a childish man, which naturally provokes mommy-type behavior. If she was in a relationship with a mature guy, I suspect she would be fine.”
This is sort of the chicken and the egg problem though, isn’t it?
You are convinced that his immaturity came first and “provoked” her into settling into a parental and controlling mode with her husband (such as not only expecting apologies, but telling him what those apologies are for and how they are to be worded etc…).
It is just as likely though that her husbands childish behavior was “provoked” by being in a relationship with someone who treats them like a child.
I don’t see how one can easily distinguish between these alternatives given what little we actually know. Furthermore there is what I consider t be the more likely option, that these people already had childish and bossy tendencies and as a result have found each other in a rather dysfunctional relationship.
Needless to say it really doesn’t matter “who started it” when it comes to this bossy/childish cycle, all that matters is that they find a way to behave like and treat each other like adults.
Reality at March 22, 2011 8:44 AM
Everyone needs to take a step back for a second. Like women never get mad or disappointed with men. It's life, it's not perfect. That what make life interesting. Furthermore, to blame and label all men with a brush stroke for bad incidents is a narrow view of life.. We have own up to our mistakes and not let them ruin our perspective for life. Remember, a mind is a terrible thing to close. Don't over-think and just go with the flow. We are all guilty of this on both side of the fence. Something that seems to be left by the wayside.
Just a thought
J
Man-Brat at March 22, 2011 8:54 AM
> Needless to say it really doesn’t matter “who
> started it” when it comes to this bossy/childish
> cycle, all that matters is that they find a way
> to behave like and treat each other like adults.
I think this is really the crux of the issue. Their bad communication is a vicious circle.
It's like the stereotypical wife who nags. Why does she nag? Because her husband doesn't listen. Why doesn't he listing? Because she nags. Over the years, she nags more, he listens less.
If the wife comes to you for advice, you don't say: "you deserve a man who listens to you." You advise her to stop nagging and then 9 times out of 10 her husband will react by listening to her more.
Same for LW. Advise her to drop the mommy-type behavior and chances are high her husband will act less childlike.
Snoopy at March 22, 2011 9:37 AM
Look, if this was just this one incident, it would be a whole different matter, but the emphasis of her letter is that he NEVER apologizes in a sincere way. Over time, that is lethal to any relationship.
I love how Amy described it as mopping up quickly because that's what smart people in healthy relationships do. It doesn't matter who started it, or who got snippy, but asking for a hug or kiss (or showing a little pouty face) are universal peacemaking gestures. And refusing them is a terrible sign!
Since I'm getting married, I've received a lot of advice lately from couples who've had long and happy marriages. It's cliche, but "don't let the sun go down on your anger" is very wise advice.
The LW's actions have all shown that she's trying to make peace and be good to her husband. I find it odd that she has been so criticized for making him a birthday dinner! Especially since, as Hkats and I both note, there's nothing to indicate that he would've been satisfied with only sex. Some of YOU guys obviously would be, but you're presumably sane and reasonable and mature. We're not talking about you. We're talking about a guy who punishes his wife emotionally by withdrawing affection when she doesn't perform as he wants, then never apologizes for this withdrawal.
She has every right to ask for an apology, and I view her doing so as a healthy sign. She's standing up for herself and trying to salvage their relationship because the way he is reacting will only cause lasting hurt and resentment.
Therapists call it setting boundaries. She's letting him know she won't be treated like this anymore. He can't just withdraw affection, be cold and distant for a whole night and day, then act like nothing happened. Something DID happen. He's being punitive and, regardless of the issue that's disappointing him, he needs to be accountable and learn how to respond differently or their relationship is doomed.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 11:24 AM
WOW!!! Sure.....if you live with the Brady's. The point everyone seems ti miss is that these trifles with each other is what makes each person grow. As being in a relationship of mature status (beyond 15 yrs) you have to come to the realization that your spouse is suppose to drive you crazy. Such is life. Without fights a relationship cannot grow. What that couple is going through is what I call growing pains.Adults will eventually find a compromise and move on. In ten years you will look back and say "If I were to judge my spouse on everything he would do based on that day, would I still have All those days from then to now with them?" Perspective
Man-Brat at March 22, 2011 11:42 AM
LS, you aren't listening! I thought chicks had a lock on that.
The men are saying that, if their SO had enough energy to do ONE thing on their birthdays, Fuck dinnner! And we are mentioning that because all the women on the issue are projecting 'This poor woman SLAVED at a hot stove for HOURS for this thoughtless brute and when she was ready to curl up into her bed, feeling like DYING, he wanted to force sex too! The poor thing just ran out of steam!"
So, as a public awareness announcement, we men are saying once again: Fuck with Us, not with Dinner. The fact that you are so shocked at this indicates that you (female collective here) Just Don't Get It.
The other thing that the majority of men said here was that the guy acted like a douche, and most of them would happily delay both until 'later'. Of course, for some people 'later' never comes...but we don't know this about the LW for or against.
flydye at March 22, 2011 11:50 AM
My ex used to try to sell me on the "fighting is good for us" theory. I don't believe it is because most couples don't know how to fight productively. Communication is extremely important, but there's no reason it has to accomplished through fights and drama. It's truly best not to fight, and, as I've learned, mature people don't need to fight to communicate.
I'm hoping this couple is very young, so maybe there's still a chance he'll mature. But if he's older, she should just leave and find a healthier partner.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 11:53 AM
"So, as a public awareness announcement, we men are saying once again: Fuck with Us, not with Dinner. The fact that you are so shocked at this indicates that you (female collective here) Just Don't Get It."
I get it. I said I'd think twice from now on about making a birthday dinner....at least if I only had energy for one thing. But you don't always KNOW that! When I'm sick, I can't necessarily predict how much worse I may feel later. Can you?
She probably had intentions of giving him dinner and sex, then simply ran out of steam (or the cold meds knocked her out). Yet, you guys act like she committed some heinous act by trying to make dinner.
Personally, I think my (soon-to-be) hubby would be grateful if I made him a special birthday dinner before passing out sick. He'd be touched that I made the effort, and we'd have sex in the morning. It would be no big deal. Like I said, for us, sex wouldn't be a real original birthday "gift" since we have it all the time.
Actually, it would seem really lame to give him something for his birthday that he gets all the time anyway. Like I couldn't be bothered to do something more unique. So, I don't think you speak for all men - just maybe those who aren't having much sex, which is understandable, but the LW is saying they typically have sex 3 times a week.
Something else is going on here. It's not all about sex.
lovelysoul at March 22, 2011 12:08 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1951948">comment from lovelysoulmature people don't need to fight to communicate.
Exactly. You can DISCUSS problems. You don't sweep them under the rug, but you don't approach them as adversaries, either.
Gregg and I have few conflicts. First, because I found a person I'm very compatible with, and I guess so did he (this doesn't mean we're alike -- in fact, we're quite different. Gregg would rather have his toes pulled off with a white-hot pliers than go to a party, and I'm always up for talking to strangers -- or, better yet, lots of my friends and some interesting new people.)
Anyway, what helps, I think, is that we operate from a position of caring about each other, and looking out for each other. We have self-interest, of course, but, for example, Gregg was supposed to come over Sunday night and cook me dinner, but I knew he'd gone out to do a few things during the day and figured he was pretty tired. I e-mailed him and said that I'd love it if he came over, but I thought he was probably tired, and if he wanted to come over on Monday instead...great. He wrote back something like "You know me so well..." and was relieved. Now, I really wanted to see him, and he makes a great dinner, but I care about him and didn't want to overwork him or have him driving in that terrible storm. It all came out of how I feel about him, not some "work on your relationship/make an effort" effort.
Amy Alkon at March 22, 2011 12:33 PM
"The men are saying that, if their SO had enough energy to do ONE thing on their birthdays, Fuck dinnner! And we are mentioning that because all the women on the issue are projecting 'This poor woman SLAVED at a hot stove for HOURS for this thoughtless brute and when she was ready to curl up into her bed, feeling like DYING, he wanted to force sex too! The poor thing just ran out of steam!"
So, as a public awareness announcement, we men are saying once again: Fuck with Us, not with Dinner. The fact that you are so shocked at this indicates that you (female collective here) Just Don't Get It."
Ummmm....I'm a woman, I never said that, and SOME women don't get it.
Angel at March 22, 2011 3:18 PM
"Personally, I think my (soon-to-be) hubby would be grateful if I made him a special birthday dinner before passing out sick. He'd be touched that I made the effort, and we'd have sex in the morning. It would be no big deal. Like I said, for us, sex wouldn't be a real original birthday "gift" since we have it all the time."
What the men are arguing LS is that if she had been more in tune with his wants and needs she wouldn't have passed out sick in the first place and a great time would have been had by all. Men always want sex as a gift, probably over material items, especially over food! If they say otherwise, they're probably lying.
And if you can't communicate disagreements and occasionally get passionate about it, you're doomed in the first place. Plus "fights" lead to great make up sex!
I wonder if you understand that love and hate are both extremes of the same emotion? That the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference?
Angel at March 22, 2011 3:28 PM
And what part of making your husband a dinner strikes you as original?!?!?!?!
Angel at March 22, 2011 3:32 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/ingrate-expecta.html#comment-1952120">comment from AngelAnd what part of making your husband a dinner strikes you as original?!?!?!?!
Well, if you're me, it's wildly original. Gregg cooks. I get chased out of the kitchen.
Amy Alkon at March 22, 2011 3:50 PM
If she was in a relationship with a mature guy, I suspect she would be fine.
Possibly true, but almost irrelevant. It only matters the way she's acting right now in this relationship. If it is the guy bringing out bad traits, then she needs to figure that out somehow. This is the part of the post where I reiterate my suggestion for her to try to get her husband to actually talk to her instead of going along with the fights. Maybe she needs to get out of this marriage because they bring out the worst in each other, but she owes it to him and herself to try to figure out a way to make things work. Maybe the end result will be her seeing that he won't change and she needs to leave, but she won't feel good about leaving if she doesn't try the alternative.
NumberSix at March 22, 2011 8:26 PM
Angel, read what Amy wrote. If you're compatible with someone, and really care about them, there are very few conflicts. This whole "love and hate are the same emotion" always seems to come from people trying to justify fighting as a means of interacting.
Jeff and I save our passion for the bedroom. And cooking a special dinner for him, though not wildly original, shows I care enough to do something a little beyond just offering him sex, which he gets all the time anyway. For one thing, viewing it that way really commodifies sex...as something I "give" as a "gift", rather than something we share.
lovelysoul at March 23, 2011 5:27 AM
The thing is, if a man is sex starved, sex would be the ideal gift. It seems many guys here view it that way. But for a man who isn't sex-starved, it would come off as kind of a lame gift ("Hey,for your birthday, I'm gonna give you the same thing I gave you last night and this morning!). So, it really depends on the couple.
Maybe this guy is sex-starved. We don't know how old he is, or if she is exaggerating the 3x per week. However, if he wants more sex, shutting his wife off emotionally and withdrawing affection for 24 hrs isn't the way to get it.
lovelysoul at March 23, 2011 5:43 AM
Lovelysoul Says:
“But for a man who isn't sex-starved, it would come off as kind of a lame gift ("Hey,for your birthday, I'm gonna give you the same thing I gave you last night and this morning!). So, it really depends on the couple.”
I don’t think this is the correct way to look at this at all. It really has nothing to do with how often someone has sex. As a matter of fact, having sex all the time and then not having sex on ones special day would make it seem conspicuously absent… not more special as you seem to be suggesting.
Let me put it to you this way. Imagine for a moment that we are dealing with a hypothetical relationship where a particular wife absolutely loves flowers. Imagine that the husband in this scenario knows his wife loves flowers and makes a special point of buying her a lovely arrangement three times each week.
Now imagine her birthday comes up and he is very ill but he decides that as a present he is going to vacuum all the carpets and mop all the floors because cleaning is something he doesn’t often do. Then at the end of the day he is exhausted and needs to rest and his wife is disappointed that she didn’t get flowers for her birthday.
Would she feel better if he offered to collect up from dandelions from the backyard for her? Or would she wonder why he put all his effort into vacuuming when she would have much preferred that he went to the florist and picked out an extra-special selection of flowers for her?
It really would have nothing to do with how often she received flowers during other weeks… it would seem especially odd that on her special day she didn’t get any at all. The same goes for sex in this situation, it has nothing to do with how much sex they have on a regular basis when determining what makes for an appropriate way to express ones affection for their spouse.
Reality at March 23, 2011 8:34 AM
"Because there's nothing to suggest from the letter itself that she didn't know or didn't ask."
Yes, and not only that, but presumably this guy has a mouth too. That presumably works. So even if she didn't ask, he could've said 'honey, for my birthday I want ___'. Like my wife did the other day, when she told me what she wants for her birthday - two months in advance already!
Lobster at March 23, 2011 9:07 AM
Reality, I get what you are saying, but my point is that it really depends on the couple. Sex is not, in every case, the appropriate gift. Now, if a guy makes it known that sex is all he wants for his birthday (which LW's husband didn't apparently do, and, as Lobster says, he has a mouth), then, of course, that is what a loving spouse would offer. But, like in my case, sex would pale in comparison to a day of gambling and betting on horses, which I know my man really loves. We have sex regularly, so if I wanted to give him a gift, it would be a day at the track...not necessarily sex, which he gets all the time anyway.
It's not the same as flowers, but I honestly think that a woman who gets flowers 3 days a week would appreciate something a little different on her birthday. Maybe not cleaning (though I would love that, and I get flowers pretty regularly) but whatever appeals to her.
The important thing is to be responsive to whatever your partner wants, and, at the same time, knowing that if life circumstances interfere - sickness, work, children, etc - that he/she won't react as LW's husband did, because that is a relationship killer.
lovelysoul at March 23, 2011 9:01 PM
Lovelysoul Says:
"Sex is not, in every case, the appropriate gift."
This I completely agree with. I actually don't believe there is ever a "catch all" gift.
In my opinion the very best presents are the ones that are unique to the person you are talking about. What makes a present special to me (both in terms of giving one and recieving one) is knowing that real thought was put into the gift, not that it is some generic "filler" present.
For example, if someone likes flowers it is better to find the flower they really love rather than just a bunch of roses (sometimes roses might be their favorite). Sometimes someone really likes doing outdoor activities so a ski trip is something they would really like.
"The important thing is to be responsive to whatever your partner wants, and, at the same time, knowing that if life circumstances interfere"
Of course, one must be flexible and be understanding when things happen. By the same token, presents don't have to have a really constrained time table, so if things come up it should always be possible to reschedule.
Reality at March 23, 2011 9:58 PM
If one is able to put 'extra effort' into a meal on a birthday, how is it impossible to put 'extra effort' into sex? It's like saying 'you eat every day so a REALLY GREAT meal is no big deal. So I'm not going to bother to feed you at all.' There is sex and SEX.
And you know what's better then a day at the track? A day at the track and SEX. You know what's better then your favorite meal? Your favorite meal and SEX. Even if I got it two days ago. Even if the giver is so unimaginative that she can't come up with a single special position, outfit or technique to make it a little different.
What do I want for my birthday? I would like a meal I've eaten before (Sushi). I'd like a DVD of a movie I've already watched and loved. And I'd like a Birthday BJ. Guess what? I had that before too! And it's ALWAYS special.
flydye at March 24, 2011 6:37 AM
Nobody is disputing that it would great to have both - wonderful dinner and sex, or a day at the track and sex - but if one of you gets sick that may not be possible.
And, believe it or not, there are guys who don't want to have sex with a sickie. Mine is one. He has a very physical job (diver) and can't afford to get sick. So, if I'm sick, he tries to keep his distance. He probably wouldn't want me making dinner or having sex. We'd probably postpone the celebration.
Plus, it's just not a turn on for him if I'm not into it. He'd much rather wait until I'm recovered, rather than me just lie there on cold meds.
The whole idea that even while sick she should be ready to put out if she has any energy at all is absurd. Besides, there's nothing in the letter that indicates he'd be satisfied with only having sex either. An immature guy like this would most likely be pissed if she skipped making dinner or making a fuss over his birthday to conserve her energy.
But, bottom line, she didn't do that. She probably planned on it but got worn down. So, at worst, she made a very minor mistake here - a miscalculation. Nothing to warrant 24 hrs of silent treatment and no hugs!
lovelysoul at March 24, 2011 7:06 AM
Amy and lovelysoul are still right. LW's husband is a spoiled child and LW can do better. I stand behind everything I wrote on March 20, which is based upon what men have said to me throughout the years.
Any guy who gets all pissy over one night of missed sex when he's getting it 3 times a week AND has a woman who cooks for him, considering what a lost art that is for the majority of modern women, deserves to loses said woman. Little Baby Boy should go home to Mama.
Rozita at March 26, 2011 6:48 AM
Rozita Says:
"Little Baby Boy should go home to Mama."
The point is that "little baby boy" is ALREADY at home with "Mama".
When you want someone to behave like an adult you treat them like an adult. When you treat someone like a child you shouldn't be surprised when they behave like one.
I mean really, what adult relationship involves one person telling the other person something like this:
"It'd be nice if you'd give me a hug and say, 'I really appreciate everything you did and I'm sorry for being grumpy.'"
That is a conversation a parent has with their six year old, not a conversation a wife has with her husband.
When adults are upset about something they communicate what they are upset about and then hope that if they got their point across the other person will feel bad and offer an apology. They don't go around telling each other to give them hugs and say sorry for "being grumpy".
So feel free to call the husband here a "little baby boy" all you want... but the wife here is a serious enabler of that behavior.
Maybe you feel like you should be able to treat men like children and have them act like adults, but my position is that if you want to get adult behavior you must treat that person accordingly.
Reality at March 26, 2011 8:07 PM
Well, Reality, when a man acts like a six-year-old, he ends up being treated that way. I think the wife should dump this baby and find a grown man.
Why aren't you holding the man accountable for any of his childlike behavior? Why is it only the woman's fault? Are men completely incapable of maturity and free will?
I'm really trying to see this "Reality" of yours. Hubby's behavior is the woman's fault... because men are under the complete power and control of women? Hubby was a mature, strong, rational, normal man who could cook for himself and make sacrifices until his met this succubus who suddenly sapped his power and turned him into a child? I had no idea that we women had such magic about us!
Once again, I stand behind everything I've said. This woman should send this brat back to his mother and find an adult man. Then she won't have to tiptoe around the temperamental asshole and make "baby talk" to him, which I think she does to keep him from flying off of the handle.
Rozita at March 27, 2011 4:47 PM
Rozita,
The arguments you are making have set up entirely different standards for the husband in this situation versus the wife. If there is one thing I strive to avoid it is double standards and you should really have that same goal in mind.
In particular, you accuse me of not holding the man accountable for his childlike behavior and saying that it was somehow the wife’s fault. This is a straw man argument as I have never said anything of the sort, in fact I have been quite clear in criticizing his contribution to this dysfunctional scenario (you on the other hand have actually blamed the wife’s poor behavior on the husband).
My position has been and remains that the husband’s behavior here is immature and brat-like but that at the same time the wife’s behavior is patronizing and bossy. I am holding both parties accountable for the role they seem to be playing in this dysfunctional relationship.
By contrast it is you who are holding the husband solely accountable and giving the wife a free pass on everything she has done that might be contributing to the problem. Adults by and large do not like to be treated like children and it isn’t at all clear which behavior emerged first, as I have said previously it is possible that they were both like this when they met and will continue to be like this with whoever else they meet (so just ditching the guy isn’t necessarily the solution you assert it to be… she has her own problems to deal with here).
You have generated a scenario for which we have absolutely no evidence and then declared the husband to be a total loser that the wife would be better off without. You have also fabricated my position when the truth is that what you are arguing against is actually a much better reflection of your position. For example:
“Hubby's behavior is the woman's fault... because men are under the complete power and control of women?”
I never said the husbands behavior was the “woman’s fault”… what I am saying is that this couple has settled into a very dysfunctional cycle that seems to be feeding on itself. Yet in the very same post you say this:
“Then she won't have to tiptoe around the temperamental asshole and make "baby talk" to him, which I think she does to keep him from flying off of the handle.”
So let’s get this straight, you find it objectionable and absurd for his childish behavior to be “blamed” on the wife, yet just a few sentences later you feel totally justified and reasonable in “blaming” her bossy behavior on the husband? How exactly did you pull that trick off without triggering your internal hypocrisy alarm?
Why don’t you hold her to the same standard you were holding the husband in the previous quote? Isn’t she in control of herself? Is she under the complete power and control of the man here? If so why is that valid reasoning but you find even the casual thought of her being responsible for his behavior to be utterly ridiculous?
Furthermore, what evidence do you have that even remotely suggests that she needs to talk down to him in order to keep him from “flying off of the handle”? The worst he seems to do when he is upset is curl up in a ball and refuse to hug her followed by a period of avoidance. Who exactly would define that behavior as “flying off of the handle”?
You can’t simultaneously declare that he behaves like a spoiled child who essentially holds his breath until he gets his way and then speculate that she is walking on egg shells around him to avoid physical abuse (which is what flying off of the handle generally suggests). There is nothing in the letter which offers any evidence that the husband is physically or verbally abusive, she hasn’t said that he yells at her, hits her, threatens her etc… all he does when he is mad or upset is stops hugging her and avoids her which isn’t even remotely at the level you are going to (it isn’t productive behavior by any means, but it isn’t the sort of behavior “flying off the handle” implies either).
So sure, you can stick to your straw man arguments and unsupported speculation. I prefer to live in the land of facts and evidence. In that realm it appears that there is more than enough blame to go around here that both of them can have their fair share. Neither of these people is a saint and neither of them is a demon.
Reality at March 27, 2011 10:25 PM
Give the guy a break. One of the hottest times to have sex with a woman is when she's sick. I mean literally. When you're running a couple of degrees of fever, being inside you is unlike any other sexual experience you can imagine. Sex with you is wonderful - sex with you when your girlie parts are on fire is mind-blowing. You should have just given him a toss. Chances are it would have been over quickly!
D Figs at June 29, 2011 7:04 AM
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