Managed Frisk
A recent column of yours really ticked me off. You stated, "While men can have sex without an emotional connection, women generally need to feel emotionally close to their partner first." You could not be more WRONG. I'm a very good-looking and fit man, and I would never have sex with someone I didn't have feelings for. To further prove my point, I know just as many high-class women who have sex with men they do not have feelings for! So women are just as guilty as men. There is no "generally" about it.
--A Real Man
When a heterosexual man has a one-night stand, which three words best describe how he's likely to feel afterward: "used, degraded, dirty" or "lucky, lucky, lucky!"?
Many women say they can hook up and walk away like men do, and they probably believe that. It seems kind of uncool to be all emotional when you want to be tough and all "no big deal" about casual sex. But we all get our marching orders from our genes. Some of these are unisex, like, "Yoohoo, sharp teeth to your left. Better run!" But there are also separate sets of directives for men and women, corresponding to our physiological differences. In What Women Want--What Men Want, anthropologist John Townsend explains, "Because women can be impregnated and abandoned and men cannot, women's emotions evolved to evaluate the quality and reliability of male investment. These emotions act as an alarm system that urges women to test and evaluate investment and remedy deficiencies even when they try to be indifferent to investment."
Yes, this "Dad or Cad?" detector women have seems to be missing the all-important on-off switch. In one of Townsend's studies, he found that even when women just wanted to hump and dump a guy, sex "made them feel vulnerable, and thoughts crossed their minds like 'Does he care about me, is sex all he was after, will he dump me in the morning?' These thoughts were difficult to suppress." They're also especially disheartening to young women who've been taught that "gender is a social construct" and who conflate being equal under the law with being the same. Sure, girls can do lots of things boys can do...but should they? Hooking up with some random himbo seems like a bad idea if your "I am woman, hear me roar" typically gives way to "I am woman's genes, hear me whimper that we hope he'll call us in the morning."
Don't mistake this as a call for prudery. I'm not suggesting that women who want no-strings sex trade their NuvaRings for chastity rings. And, regarding your contention that there's no "generally" about men, women, and casual sex -- sure, there are exceptions: men who get all emo afterward and women who wish that the guy would evaporate already. Studies don't explain every person; they paint a picture of the average person. There are women who can't have casual sex (they can't help but get attached), but the research suggests to me that some women might just need to differentiate between casual sex and too-casual sex. When a woman isn't up for a boyfriend (or spending a year with her knees crossed), maybe a "friends with benefits" thing could work for her -- if it's a friend she's known and trusted for more than the 26 minutes he spent chatting her up after "last call."
I'm a very good-looking and fit man,
Bully for you.
and I would never have sex with someone I didn't have feelings for.
That wasn't the point, Mr. Real Man. The point was that generally men can have sex without getting attached and women generally can't. You alone do not a point prove. Uh oh...
To further prove my point
Well, is my face red. I wasn't aware you were proving anything over here.
I know just as many high-class women who have sex with men they do not have feelings for
Just as many women as what? As men? Possible in certain circles: men who don't admit they can have sex without feelings and women who try way to hard to be more like men in that regard, sure, I can see it happening. There are multiple possibilities for this phenomenon. Again, your personal experiences do not a generalization disprove.
So women are just as guilty as men.
Aha! There lies the crux. You think, Mr. Real Man, that Amy was disparaging on men who can have sex without getting attached emotionally to their partners, but that is not so. Amy is all about not stigmatizing certain differences in the sexes. This argument is more your hangup than Amy's. Perhaps the reason you don't have sex with women you don't have feelings for is that you're such an upstanding gentleman. Or perhaps you're one of those men who doesn't want to be "guilty" and therefore tries too hard to act unmasculine, which likely gets you relegated to either the friendzone or the he's-kind-of-creepy zone.
NumberSix at March 29, 2011 8:12 PM
Statistician: Men are generally taller than women and have greater upper body strength.
Typical Internet Debate Club Member: But *I* know a woman who is taller than most men she meets! And she bench presses 200 pounds, which most men cannot. Hah! Your generalities are bunk!
Statistician: /facepalm
At some point, you just don't bother, Ms. Alkon--life is short. We won't blame you if you just give up when the Internet Debate Club Members show up.
Spartee at March 29, 2011 8:31 PM
What NumberSix said.
I happen to have a good female friend who is more than capable of "hit it and quit it" (as she puts it, while I cringe, after she's kicked out her one night stand at 5am and we have a drink together). Whereas for a guy, I like, but don't necessarily need, a bit more emotional attachment than most. And I get hung up on people easily.
The thing is, we both recognise we're not normal. You need to do the same. Most guys will not turn down sex from someone they have no feelings for, unless they find them physically unattractive, and sometimes not even then. If you're different, that's cool. But it's true.
Ltw at March 29, 2011 8:57 PM
Wow, LW - "a very good-looking and fit man" and humble, to boot. But apparently a little shaky when it comes to the English language. Lets go to Merriam-Webster:
Generally: in disregard of specific instances and with regard to an overall picture.
And what's with this: "... I know just as many high-class women who have sex with men they do not have feelings for!" Um, just as many high-class women as ... what? Men? Low-class women? What?
catspyjamas at March 29, 2011 9:02 PM
One thing that is missing here. A stupid/drunk woman will occasionally have sex with some guy she barely knows.
Most smart/sober women won't. Why? Survival. Are you going to go to a private place and take all of your clothes off to be alone with a guy who you barely know when he has probably 50 pounds on you and 25-50 percent more muscle mass? Never mind STD's, how about getting yourself strangled and dumped in a gutter somewhere?
Isabel1130 at March 29, 2011 9:12 PM
Friends with benefits is more painful than a one night stand. Because the longer you are exposed to a person the more feelings you develop for them.
NicoleK at March 29, 2011 10:51 PM
This guy is a total horse's ass.
Patrick at March 30, 2011 7:40 AM
If Amy were saying ALL men feel this way or ALL women feel this way, then yes, that would be silly. But we CAN make generalizations about behavior. As long as we realize that many people do not fit those generalizations, there's no problem here.
MonicaP at March 30, 2011 8:13 AM
Sure, girls can do lots of things boys can do...but should they? Hooking up with some random himbo seems like a bad idea if your "I am woman, hear me roar" typically gives way to "I am woman's genes, hear me whimper that we hope he'll call us in the morning."
Especially when hooking up with said random himbo pretty much guarantees that he WON'T call in the morning.
Pirate Jo at March 30, 2011 8:51 AM
Oh heaven forbid someone point out that men can more easily hump and dump than women. Dude pull your big girl panties up and get over it.
hisprincess at March 30, 2011 9:28 AM
Any women who want to prove LW correct, and use me for sex then dump me afterwards, please let me know.
Snoopy at March 30, 2011 11:33 AM
I never had sex with anyone I didn't have feelings for. I am sure King David had feelings for all his wives and concubines. They feel good.
ken at March 30, 2011 4:10 PM
Amy: You just might want to read a book titled, Why Women Have Sex.
It's a far better guage of female sexuality than the book you cited.
No offense.
Kevin at March 30, 2011 4:46 PM
Wow. Logical argument fail.
I love how he uses his personal observations as fact to tell Amy she's wrong.
Daghain at March 30, 2011 8:54 PM
Catspyjamas asked: And what's with this: "... I know just as many high-class women who have sex with men they do not have feelings for!" Um, just as many high-class women as ... what? Men? Low-class women? What?
As him, of course! And if he's enough to prove the standard for all men, then that one woman he knows (who probably "hit it and quit it" with him when he was looking for something more emotional) is enough to prove his counter-point.
Or something like that. He just comes across as an emotional goober with no ability to reason logically.
EvilEmpryss at March 31, 2011 7:23 AM
It seems like he's trying to defend the PC view on women's sexuality. That men and women are identical with regards to their sexuality and it's only patriarchy and social repression that produces differences in behavior. You'll still run into this sort of thinking if you hang around Lefties. But I think that it's waning. The claim diverges too far from common experience to be plausible, to even the most committed ideologue.
Notice how he sees the need to state that he is physically attractive, which I assume is intended to establish that he's sexually healthy and 'normal'. In his world, it's the unhealthy people who hew to sexual stereotypes.
Capt'n Caveman at March 31, 2011 8:33 AM
Wow! I have just lost a little respect for women after I read this.
I am one of those guys that won't have sex with a woman unless I really care for her. I did that once and it just didn't work. Now, after reading this it seems that as long as the woman knows the guy cares for her it's ok for her to have sex with him. But....you forget that the guy has feelings too. How should that guy feel after he has sex with a woman he cares about when he finds out she really just wanted sex and has no real feelings for him?
Amy.....You don't know a lot about men.
Dave at March 31, 2011 9:11 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/managed-frisk.html#comment-1984847">comment from DaveAmy.....You don't know a lot about men.
Dave, you're cute.
"How should that guy feel after he has sex with a woman he cares about when he finds out she really just wanted sex and has no real feelings for him?"
Like he should wait a while and establish a relationship before having sex with a woman.
If you find something doesn't work for you, don't do it again.
And you've "lost respect for women" -- because this is how they evolved to be biologically?
Women sometimes want casual sex, but when they have it, certain evolved parameters come into play. The lack of those parameters, in general, for many men, is also an evolutionary thing. Not all men are this way, but many are.
Dave, best not to accuse me of not knowing a lot about men because you didn't understand what you read or extrapolated it in some wacky way.
Amy Alkon at March 31, 2011 9:30 AM
Amy,
Thanks for the compliment. Many women think I am cute. :) But it is you that doesn't seem to get it. Heck, you can't even quote me correctly. I said "I have just lost a little respect for women" But never mind that. The issue here seems to be that you believe men just don't have feelings. Or you believe that men with feelings aren't masculine? Which is it? Take a look at our society... If a woman wants sex and the new man she is dating decides he isn't ready for that yet, all kinds of things go through her mind. One being the fear that he is gay...because we ALL KNOW any man will have sex at the drop of a hat. Right? Did you ever stop to think that some insecure men will have sex just to prove they aren't gay when they don't really want sex? That makes all men look bad. I was never that kind of guy. I never have sex with a woman I don't care about or a woman I am not in a relationship with. Like I said....I tried that once and it doesn't work. With that being said...Do you think it might be possible that there are many men out there that are the same but because of the pressure society puts on them to preform they go out and have sex and show no feelings? The truth is when it comes to sex men and women are not really that different. What you believe might be true for younger men....in their 20s. But as a man gets older just any piece isn't going to work. That woman has to show she has what it takes to go the long haul. Like I said....You don't know a lot about men.
Dave at March 31, 2011 11:03 AM
I'm not surprised that somebody would come here and think Amy's an airhead that hasn't read a hardback book or two, but I do wish some folk would read a little bit more than they have before sounding off.
Radwaste at March 31, 2011 11:57 AM
Dave, you said "I" in your most recent response a total of 10 times ... that's not how one constructs a valid argument. And you seem to missing the point, did you ever take a biology class and study evolution? Do you attend seminars on biology or sex versus gender? Here's another good book, especially helpful and enlightening if you have children: "Why Gender Matters" by Dr. Leonard Sax. And again as was stated earlier, there are exceptions to these studies. You seem to be one, good for you.
Jess at March 31, 2011 2:13 PM
"When a heterosexual man has a one-night stand, which three words best describe how he's likely to feel afterward: "used, degraded, dirty" or "lucky, lucky, lucky!"?"
I'll take Used, Degraded, Dirty, and Lucky for $400, Alex. $50 if she's hot.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 31, 2011 2:27 PM
"But....you forget that the guy has feelings too. How should that guy feel after he has sex with a woman he cares about when he finds out she really just wanted sex and has no real feelings for him?"
In today's society, does anyone honestly believe that having sex with someone (in any gender configuration) necessarily constitutes an implicit declaration of 'having feelings'? When you choose to have sex with someone as an adult, you are taking the risk that the person has no feelings for you; they don't have a "responsibility" to only have sex with you if they have feelings for you, and if you really need to know beforehand, like you, then you wait and find out beforehand, like Amy said.
Works both ways. I had casual sex with a woman once or twice, without making any particular statements of intent at all (it seemed obvious to me the intent was casual, partly as she lived on a different continent, only came over for occasional holidays, we hardly talked inbetween these, and didn't even get on that great), but later - months later - she got highly upset, said she had feelings, claimed I misled her and that having sex meant I was somehow morally obliged to be her boyfriend, or something like that. The way I see it, I think it was a way for her to try control and guilt me into feeling that I 'owed' her something more, just because we had sex, as if she could 'guilt' me into a relationship ... and I must admit you're sounding just a little bit like her right now.
"The issue here seems to be that you believe men just don't have feelings"
Of course men have feelings, but I don't think other people are responsible for them. I'm guessing Amy realizes men has feelings as she often stands up for them in cases where society is doing men wrong (excuse the double meaning there).
"Right? Did you ever stop to think that some insecure men will have sex just to prove they aren't gay when they don't really want sex?"
I've never heard of such a thing, but so what? Does this make it the woman's responsibility to ensure she isn't confusing his delicate confused feelings?
OK, I'll admit that there probably is a bit of a double-standard in society, and men's feelings are regarded as less important here, but really, so what? Is it such a big deal? Man up. If a dude doesn't want to have sex he shouldn't, and nobody else is responsible for that. Likewise for women. That's being an adult for you .. if we assume less, we are implying adults are like big children. But seriously, you're complaining about women having casual sex without thinking? Shhh ... stop discouraging them!
Lobster at March 31, 2011 2:38 PM
"And again as was stated earlier, there are exceptions to these studies. You seem to be one, good for you. "
'Everyone's just like me,' said the statistical outlier.
Lobster at March 31, 2011 2:41 PM
"This guy is a total horse's ass."
On this, I happen to agree with you completely.
Lobster at March 31, 2011 2:44 PM
What about your hand Dave? You even take its feeling into account or do you just rape it?
lujlp at March 31, 2011 4:40 PM
I want to screw every good-looking woman I see. Long and hard. The minute I see them.
Oh, how I wish, how so bad, I am just whimpering and praying to God, and blasting Satan back to hell that women would feel the same way.
They never do.
That is also why there are no funny female "comedians." They have male writers behind them, and they are still not funny. It's a guy thing.
Like, did Hugh Hefner ever tell a long funny story? Why would he? He gets laid every day multiple times by gorgeous women.
BOTU at March 31, 2011 6:10 PM
It's funny when someone argues against generalizing, by generalizing from their own experience.
morl at April 1, 2011 5:18 AM
@ Lobster... she was trying to guilt you into more sex, ...doh.
Bluejean Baby at April 1, 2011 12:19 PM
@ BOTU... never say never.
Bluejean Baby at April 1, 2011 12:21 PM
This guy sounds like one of those male feminists who, when surrounded by guys who are just being guys, self-righteously declares himself as a "real man who respects women."
Patrick at April 2, 2011 12:53 AM
The Horse's Ass Flatulates: "I would never have sex with someone I didn't have feelings for."
No man has sex with someone he doesn't have feelings for. It's just that sometimes that feelings is lust and horniness, and nothing more.
Patrick at April 2, 2011 12:55 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/managed-frisk.html#comment-1992986">comment from PatrickWell-put, Patrick.
Amy Alkon at April 2, 2011 4:28 AM
Blue Jean Baby-
Yeah, yeah, tell me about it. The point isn't outliers, it is what is the norm for 99.8 percent of men and women.
Some speculate there are some men, who are homosexuals, who are trapped in women's bodies. That is to say, a male, but homosexual brain in a woman's body.
Such a woman might be open to lots of sex with multiple partners frequently. Or maybe they just become hookers and get rich for doing what they like to do.
I suppose there are men with very low hormone counts who are not sex-crazy. It is true, as men get older, the sex drive diminishes.
But if a young man blubbers about not wanting sex with a hottie--latent homo on deck.
BOTU at April 2, 2011 12:15 PM
I wont say that your theory about one night stands being based on evolutionary traits is wrong, in fact I would agree with you "generally". I think you are forgetting part of your own statement where you mention outside aspects like birth control and in addition, media, porn, cultural allowances, peer pressure... etc. These give the female a greater say in their promiscuity than at any time in history before.
I think you can correctly say that given absolutely no outside influence of the world around them then yes... a default xx chromosomed individual would definitely be most likely incapable of a one night stand because of hardwired genetic factors. Once again, we don't live in a bubble so that is the only reason I can't fully agree with you. I think you are too structuralist in your analytical method.
Take the me-generation of the baby-boomers for example. Free love and birth control went hand in hand. One night stands are an extension of selfishly making the choice to have sex and dispose of the partner. The aforementioned influences give the female a new level of choice that was not there before so of course there will be women who take advantage of that like Real Man said.
I dont think either of you are wrong or right... just not seeing the WHOLE PICTURE.
BTW. I dont like to have sex nearly as much as my girlfriend but that is because I dont like to overuse what I have. Its like salt and vinegar potato chips. I love the eff out of S&V potato chips but I only eat them maybe 6 times a year. That way when I do eat them I enjoy them just as much as the first time.... for clarification I have sex more than 6 times a year.
Doug Freshly at April 5, 2011 1:36 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/managed-frisk.html#comment-2006203">comment from Doug FreshlyI think you are forgetting part of your own statement where you mention outside aspects like birth control and in addition, media, porn, cultural allowances, peer pressure... etc. These give the female a greater say in their promiscuity than at any time in history before
Sorry, our genes don't know from The Pill or any of that. As Cosmides and Tooby have written, and as numerous studies have borne out, we are living in modern times with Stone Age brains.
People may be able to have sex without pregnancy, but their genes (and psychology) are directing them to respond as if it's still the Pleistocene. Hence, my answer.
Amy Alkon at April 5, 2011 2:22 PM
So what you are saying is that yes, the individual (psychology) and genes (the thing that controls hormones) are the two factors that are really at play. Way to agree with me and make it look almost like you disagree.
You certainly busted me by telling me that it is NOT general but instead INDIVIDUAL in nature. Also, that the thing that drives people to have sex, genes, somehow do not effect things like hormones.
Hear that ladies, you dont have to worry about birth control effecting your hormones... with their hormone treatments...
Doug Freshly at April 5, 2011 3:08 PM
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