"Can You Here Me Now?"
I have an online dating issue. When a man and I are going to have our first phone chat, I set up a specific day and time so we don't have to play phone tag. This allows me to schedule around it and be prepared and at my computer viewing his profile when we talk. I take the man's number and call him, because I'm not comfortable giving out mine right away. During my several years of online dating, the percentage of guys who aren't there at the planned time has been about 90. Many never contact me again, even to explain or apologize.
--Feeling Very Stood Up
A woman can be a little premature in setting up who wears the ball gag in the relationship.
Telling somebody they need to talk to you at a specific time might work fine in business, but because men tend to be wary of controlling women, it's a risky tactic when you're vying to maybe become a guy's girlfriend, not his supervisor. But, here you are, not only setting the call time but informing a guy that he'll be doing the waiting and you'll be doing the calling. Very possibly, there's more in your e-mails that suggests you're bossy and controlling. If so, for a guy, this can foreshadow a lot of being ordered around by you: "Sit. Stay. Repeat after me, 'I'd love nothing more than to turn off the playoffs and join you in watching Valerie Bertinelli kill her abusive husband with a shovel in the Lifetime Movie Of The Week.'"
The dynamic of Internet dating probably plays a part in your 90 percent no-show rate. Instead of connecting human to human in some chance meeting, it's the dating equivalent of clicking a box on drugstore.com to add Q-tips to your "basket." You're not so much a person as you are a picture of a person, and whether you'll actually resemble the person pictured remains to be seen. No, you swear, you really are 5'8" and 127 pounds...on Mars. (Here on Earth you're 317 -- if you weigh yourself first thing and don't put on socks.)
Now, maybe you have a peculiar attraction to rude men, but more than likely, you just need to try something new: Relax a little. Give out your number. Not your home number, connected to your address, but the number to your cell or one of those pay-as-you-go phones that isn't traceable to you. Should you start getting unwanted calls, put the thing on silent or give it to some wino and tell him to answer it by breathing heavy and asking, "Are you wearing crotchless panties?"
Instead of trying to wring every bit of uncertainty out of your life, accept that there might be a little phone tag. When you do get on the phone with a guy, step away from the computer and your spreadsheet of questions. Your goal shouldn't be vacuuming him for data; it should be having fun getting to know him. If you're having fun, you'll be more likely to sound like fun -- like the sort of woman who keeps the spark in a relationship (and not by tasing the guy whenever he's a little slow to take out the trash).
Excellent, Amy. I drop controlling women like a congressman drops his principles.
PizSez at April 5, 2011 5:11 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/can-you-here-me.html#comment-2006512">comment from PizSezExcellent, Amy. I drop controlling women like a congressman drops his principles.
Hah. Smart.
Somebody once asked me if I "made" my boyfriend get a hybrid. I'm sure I looked at them like they were insane. A guy I could "make" do anything wouldn't be my boyfriend. Gregg figures out what kind of car he wants, then narrows it down to a couple colors, and asks me which one I prefer and uses that to guide his choice. But, it's his car, his choice!
Amy Alkon at April 5, 2011 5:36 PM
*****A guy I could "make" do anything wouldn't be my boyfriend.*****
Amen, sister!
Daghain at April 5, 2011 6:24 PM
LW: did you ever stop to think that the guys may, say, be in the bathroom when you called? Or on another line? Or stuck on the Metro? Or that a lot of people screen out unknown numbers--I mean, they had no way of actually knowing it was you calling, right?
And c'mon: it's not as though men are uniquely repulsed by scary-anal controlling behavior. If the sexes were reversed I'm sure that a man who behaved this way would have women running in the opposite direction as well.
Shannon at April 5, 2011 8:05 PM
Amy may be correct in assuming that the LW may have left other clues in her e-mails that she could have a controlling personality. I know from my experience in Internet dating that it was very difficult (at least for me) to lock down a committed phone conversation. I understood that women have more to risk than men do in that situation. I would have more appreciation for a woman who could follow through on a promise to make that first phone call. But I guess that would have made me part of that 10% who were there waiting for the call. (I should mention that I got married to a woman I met on the Internet, and it will be our four-year anniversary this month. She actually gave me her phone number.)
Fayd at April 5, 2011 8:05 PM
Seriously? Life stops and you park yourself at the puter for someone you've never met? You clear out everything else in your life for that? You sound borderline retarded, LW. Who cares what he's doing? What are YOU doing? With YOUR life? Just stop, ladies. Okay, it's that simple. Stop giving a shit, and you'll have them beating your door down. You want them to come back? Be busy, and aloof about whether they will or not. I'm going to Cabo for spring break (for free, bitches!) with a guy who's been chasing me for years. Wanna know the secret? Last time I let him take me out was a year ago, he dropped five benjamins on dinner for two and I barely returned his texts since then. I've seen him around town a few times since then and when I do I'm sooo cool it's ridiculous and whaddya know...Boom! Cabo! Like rabbits out of hat! That's my kind of feminism!
Gspotted at April 5, 2011 9:29 PM
Hi Gspotted,
Wow. Just, wow. I got a kick out of your post and even laughed a bit about it. But, you're not trying to convince other ladies that the fella who is taking you to Cabo is a man to be desired, are you? He may be good to have around if you want to use the shit out of someone for a free vacation, but could you imagine respecting that guy in the long term?
Good on you for "scoring" a trip to Cabo. I hope you have a great time. Try not to humiliate him too much with snide asides to other holiday travelers. After all, he is paying the bill.
I've recently taken a very pretty woman out a couple of times who seems to be using this same tactic. Guess what? It doesn't work on desirable men who have other options. See ya. On those two dates, I've spent about $50 total. No harm, no foul.
whistleDick at April 6, 2011 4:00 AM
As for the original letter writer, relax. It's not you. It's also not exclusive to online dating. I tried the online dating thing for about a month and gave up completely because there seemed to be so many women that would commit to a date and flake out at the last minute. I figured that they had amassed a roster of prospects for, let's say, Saturday and selected the one they were most comfortable with.
Now I think I was wrong about that theory. I live in a pretty big city with a nice thriving night life and go out a reasonable amount. Nearly each time, I wind up with women's phone numbers that they have offered without my asking. The percentage of women that actually follow through with something like a, "you and I should check out this activity", sort of an invitation (suggested by them, mind you) is around the same ten percent. It's weird and rude. I no longer hang around the house just in case they make good on their suggestion. If they don't call around nine as they say, at ten after nine, I'm off doing something else. Screw 'em. You've dodged a bullet.
I've been out of the dating scene for a very long time and have only recently rejoined it. This seems to be a strange reality to adapt to now-a-day.
whistleDick at April 6, 2011 4:22 AM
"I set up a specific day and time so we don't have to play phone tag. This allows me to schedule around it and be prepared and at my computer viewing his profile when we talk."
Is she trying to set up a date or process a loan application? For crying out loud, the lengths some people will go to, just to be miserable. I've been out of it for a while, but I don't think dating was ever supposed to be this hard.
Old RPM Daddy at April 6, 2011 5:01 AM
LW may not normally be controlling. My first thought in reading her letter is that she has social anxiety and is taking these steps to minimize the anxiety she experiences - e.g. a preplanned phone call is less anxiety provoking than an unscheduled one.
Snoopy at April 6, 2011 5:35 AM
Gspotted - I'm not sure how you can be so proud of what you're doing. You're leading on a guy and letting him spend a lot of time and money on you, when you obviously don't like the guy, much less respect him.
Snoopy at April 6, 2011 5:41 AM
Gspotted talks like she has a dick and is one of those douchebags who does a peace sign for the camera. Cabo? Benjamins?
Either that, or she accepts 150 roses per date-hour.
Razor at April 6, 2011 6:26 AM
How about instead of playing phone tag, you meet at a certain time at Starbucks?
Patrick at April 6, 2011 6:49 AM
LW may not normally be controlling. My first thought in reading her letter is that she has social anxiety and is taking these steps to minimize the anxiety she experiences - e.g. a preplanned phone call is less anxiety provoking than an unscheduled one.
Ya know, I could get behind this theory, too. Not that I have anxiety or anything, but it seems plausible.
Flynne at April 6, 2011 7:06 AM
Gspotted's approach could work, but I gotta say, I got a pretty great guy by being nice to him and wearing sexy lingerie.
MonicaP at April 6, 2011 7:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/can-you-here-me.html#comment-2008450">comment from FlynneLW may not normally be controlling. My first thought in reading her letter is that she has social anxiety and is taking these steps to minimize the anxiety she experiences - e.g. a preplanned phone call is less anxiety provoking than an unscheduled one.
The reason is immaterial.
Amy Alkon at April 6, 2011 7:17 AM
> The reason is immaterial.
Why? I'm not sure it affects your advice, but additionally dealing with the root of the problem would seem very helpful.
Snoopy at April 6, 2011 7:25 AM
Gspotted's methods only work if you're actually attractive. Not that I'm endorsing them- but a chubby, whiney, unkempt middle-aged woman probably can't play that game.
ahw at April 6, 2011 7:43 AM
My initial reaction was that there's nothing wrong with organising a specific time/date - I do that too. I don't like to be called at work, I don't like talking on public transport or when there are other people around. Certainly not in a dating situation - obviously if it's a gf or friend checking when I'll get home that's different. If I want to settle down and get to know someone, I at least feel more comfortable with "I won't be busy Thursday night, I'll have time for a chat then". Knowing when someone will be available is comforting.
But this struck me as odd
During my several years of online dating...
90% of guys aren't getting back to her in years? She's doing something wrong. I thought the problem for women in online dating was having to deal with men not leaving them alone.
And Gspotted - whatever you want to do. But at least have the decency to put out for him. Is your price that low?
Ltw at April 6, 2011 8:07 AM
"I set up a specific day and time "
What's wrong with asking him what would be a good time to talk? Once you have decided on a time together, ask him to send you an email through the dating site if something comes up and tell him you will do the same.
When I internet dated, I didn't talk on the phone much. I suggested meeting for coffee. It quickly eliminated the ones that used a picture from 10 years and 50 lbs ago.
Steamer at April 6, 2011 8:18 AM
The LW seems to want to avoid phone tag.
But I think playing phone tag is a GREAT way to gauge someone's interest/reliability. Do they call you back or keep you hanging for days? If you don't pick up when they call back, do they leave you a nice message saying something like, "Hey, I'm so sorry, I missed you. I had to work late. But call me anytime tonight, or after 7 tomorrow. Can't wait to talk!"
Or do they use Slydial or another similar lame program? Or, worse, do they psychotically call you 3 times a day and leave messages DEMANDING to know why you aren't picking up?
sofar at April 6, 2011 10:00 AM
"Gspotted - I'm not sure how you can be so proud of what you're doing. You're leading on a guy and letting him spend a lot of time and money on you, when you obviously don't like the guy, much less respect him."
As a professional dater (and evidently a pretty darn good one) Gspotted has on hook either a complete doormat/loser/get-him-to-do-whatever-I-want-him-to-do type, or one who is gonna bang the be-jesus out of her for a week.
I'm betting the second.
Fair exchange.
railmeat at April 6, 2011 11:31 AM
"Gspotted - I'm not sure how you can be so proud of what you're doing. You're leading on a guy and letting him spend a lot of time and money on you, when you obviously don't like the guy, much less respect him."
As a professional dater (and evidently a pretty darn good one) Gspotted has on hook either a complete doormat/loser/get-him-to-do-whatever-I-want-him-to-do type, or one who is gonna bang the be-jesus out of her for a week.
I'm betting the second.
Fair exchange.
railmeat at April 6, 2011 11:33 AM
I have to admit to being a wee bit curious why these guys are agreeing to take her call if they don't plan on being there. Sure stuff happens, but a 90% rate of failure is weird for what I presume is a mutually agreed time to talk.
AntoniaB at April 6, 2011 11:42 AM
JUST setting up a time to call doesn't sound too over the top. If you are suddenly having a great conversation, you don't want to have to drop everything because the cable guy came in.
And it isn't a bad gauge of the civility and thoughtfulness of the person involved. They show or they have a reasonable excuse about what happened. What happened, Cliint? Did you forget? Are you so disorganized that you forgot your cell?
We aren't even talking about the guy setting aside anything but having a PHONE with him.
Now, that said, if she added a lot of extra baggage about how 'isn't it ridiculous that the cable guy showed up at 9:45 instead of 9' then she's waving a LOT of flags, and not this rather small one.
Gspotted That will work until your boobs sag. Enjoy it while you can. They say that the shelf life of a high end escort is 5 years. But they are a MEMORABLE five years.
flydye at April 6, 2011 11:54 AM
Just start, ladies. Okay, it's that simple. Start giving a shit, and you'll have him beating your door down. You want him to come back? Be cheerful, and sweet and know that of course he will. I'm going to Paris for spring break (aw yeah, bitches!) with a guy who's been living with me for years. Wanna know the secret? Last time I let him take me out was a a few weeks ago, I send him lovey emails at work since then. I've seen him around the house daily times since then and when I do I wear a low cut shirt, ask him about his day, chat with him, feed his baby and put her to bed, serve him dinner and have sex, it's ridiculous and whaddya know...Boom! Paris! Boston! A diamond ring! A gold band! Necklaces! A house! A baby! Security! Companionship! A buddy! Someone who tells good jokes! A great lover! Someone I love around me all the time! Like rabbits out of hat! That's my kind of feminism!
NicoleK at April 6, 2011 12:36 PM
Too funny NicoleK! But you might be onto something... :)
Snoopy at April 6, 2011 2:13 PM
"If I could make him do anything, I wouldn't be dating him in the first place."
Girl, they should clone you!
Kevin at April 6, 2011 3:19 PM
I'm just not quite sure I see the appeal of going on vacation with someone you don't like... isn't the whole point to go with your beloved, or failing that, with family and friends?
NicoleK at April 6, 2011 11:34 PM
@Razor-- ur funny! I actually hold up my index finger for the camera to indicate that I'm number one.
@railmeat-- I certainly hope he does! I love sex and I'm actually hoping we'll meet some other women to join us at the 21 and over resort we're staying at :)
@Snoopy-- I do respect him for what he has to offer, everybody is different and has different gifts. He has a degree in philosophy and an amazing vinyl collection. We have long and interesting conversations and he's an attractive guy. I just don't want to listen to him snore, wash his dishes or argue about the gas bill with him.
@Nicole K-- That's awesome! You sound like you're exactly where you want to be. Go girl! Feminism is about being exactly where you want to be. Unfortunately, our LW doesn't share your level of contentment and none of your advice can help her.
Gspotted at April 6, 2011 11:47 PM
"Gspotted That will work until your boobs sag. Enjoy it while you can. They say that the shelf life of a high end escort is 5 years. But they are a MEMORABLE five years."
@flydye I'm not an escort, although my views are very pro-prostitution or anything else that puts money in a woman's pocket. I'm also not worried about shelf life, to be worried about such a thing is regressive and shallow. If you don't want to be alone, start a business, or a book club- whatever! There is no law in this country holding women back from being social. If you want sex you have to look good at any age, but that's in the eye of the beholder. If this LW had good self esteem she would care less about what men are doing to her (standing her up) and more about what she is doing with her life. IMHO, it's time for her to miss some calls, and start carpe dieming! She might not have Los Cabos, but she'll have a more fulfilling life than she has now.
Gspotted at April 7, 2011 12:25 AM
@whistle dick most men I've dated are artists and don't have a ton of cash, but they always find super interesting things to take me to- that really counts! You keep knockin' em dead with Ulysses S. Grant and I'll get mine too. Peace!
Gspotted at April 7, 2011 12:35 AM
90% of guys aren't getting back to her in years? She's doing something wrong.
Yeah. I'd bet that many of these guys are agreeing to the call without any intention of taking it. They're either screening her call, or blowing her off entirely. Perhaps she's someone who comes off fine at first, but then starts to throw red flags once she senses that a guy is interested. By then he feels obliged to agree to a call.
But if she really is controlling and bossy, there's no point in hiding it. It's going to come out soon enough. She should just put it right in her profile - I'm kind of bossy ... - some guys like bossy women.
ben at April 7, 2011 9:05 AM
@ben you make an excellent point! Sexy/playful bossy women are super hot, but there has to be some seduction to it and apparently our LW hasn't figured out how to do that via email yet. Or maybe she has and only ten percent of men like bossy women, but I find that hard to believe.
Gspotted at April 7, 2011 3:10 PM
Has she considered that the 90% of the daters who don't answer are the married ones fooling around on the internet and have no intention of meeting her or having her have their phone number?
Margaret Smith at April 8, 2011 9:03 AM
The LW is, by her actions, taking on the role of the aggressor/pursuer/seducer. A few thoughts.
1. Welcome to MY world! Enjoy!
2. Being a successful pursuer is hard. Many men never attain any proficiency. Most men attain a very marginal level of proficiency...sufficient to get a mate, although not one that is their first choice.
3. What level of proficiency a man achieves often takes years. Be patient. Change your approach. Accept that the anger/bitterness/depression you experience is a necessary element to finally achieve personal growth, happiness, realistic expectations and competence.
4. Courtship by correspondence is very demanding. I don't recommend it. Most successful internet meetings are a combination of hot pictures and pure blind luck...not much skill involved. Which is good and bad.
5. You need some quality face time before people will start answering your calls. Functionally, this means that you need to get to the point where you are kissing/charming the person the FIRST TIME YOU MEET THEM. I recommend kissing. Making out is okay but not necessary.
6. Again....welcome to my world. Enjoy!
Peter at April 8, 2011 2:31 PM
Exactly what Peter said. Guys generally get a 90% rejection rate, except we normally get it face to face, not sitting on a comfy bed waiting for someone to pick up. And many girls aren't particularly NICE about shooting a guy down for a myriad of reasons.
All she's getting is bumped voicemail. Cry me a river.
flydye at April 8, 2011 3:55 PM
Maybe she needs to find a guy who likes being controlled, i.e. a 'matching' personality that complements her apparent need to control her environment to a high degree.
Lobster at April 8, 2011 5:49 PM
Enjoyed your presentation at Literary Orange. The pace was frenetic (I hope that is a compliment). I blog twice a week at www.DoctorEclectic.com
Dee FitzGerald at April 12, 2011 8:28 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/can-you-here-me.html#comment-2035781">comment from Dee FitzGeraldThank you so much, Dee! As for frenetic, I hope I was comprehensible. I think I don't know how to speak any other way, although I'm trying to slow it down so I can do radio!
Amy Alkon at April 12, 2011 8:47 AM
"join you in watching Valerie Bertinelli kill her abusive husband with a shovel in the Lifetime Movie Of The Week."
You are so hilarious! I blew coffee out of my nose from laughing so hard. (IBCOUMNFLSH.)
I was in a long term relationship with a woman who tased guys who were too slow in taking out the garbage. Actually, just yelled at ever increasing volume until she got her way. Take a step to the left. That was wrong. Take a step to the right. That was wrong. Don't take a step to the left or the right and that was wrong.
Eventually, everyday was filled with harshness and 'thou shalt or I will make your life suck'. Then I totally ignored her for a while until I left. I told her nothing anymore about what I thought, how I felt, what I did during my day, etc. This turned me into the monster that I am today.
But ... I still love and lust women. I am still generally upbeat and hopeful concerning relationships.
When I look back at the beginning of the relationship, there were little clues that such a dynamic would occur if I continued with her.
She got this from her mother who got this from her grandmother, the original source vampire. The grandmother ruled her mild mannered engineer husband and relatives with an iron fist.
The mother married 3 men who were financially promising but riddled with mental issues (1st. Emotionally cold. 2nd. Manic-depressive 3rd. Mean alcoholic.) Therefore, her mother had to play the rule of a mother to her husbands. The role of an exasparated mother trying to keep these men from slipping off of the edge by use of the iron fist. It didn't quite work as she is now a retired, reasonably well off, bitter, extreme man hating 60 year old. (She plays tennis a lot these days only with women.) But ... she chose those men for her own reasons.
Now my sensors are set to maximum range for detection that a woman wants to wear the pants, gun, tractor or presidential seal in the relationship.
I am on the look out for women who will eventually require that every hope, dream, desire, plan for my day and meal that I ever will have must be funneled through her for a worthiness / unworthiness rating and an approval / disapproval stamp.
David at May 15, 2011 6:41 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/can-you-here-me.html#comment-2139442">comment from DavidThanks, David...means a lot...especially as I just woke up to slave over a hot computer on the next one!
Amy Alkon at May 15, 2011 6:48 AM
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