Miffed Connection
Two years ago, "Beth," this attractive woman I see around, gave me her number and mentioned three times that she hadn't been asked out in a long time. I called to ask her out and...silence. She then said, "I can't...as I think I may have something else to do." Well, that was that, as I rarely ask a lady a second time when a lady "may have something else to do." I saw her around occasionally, and we were polite. Fast-forward to last week: I saw her and about 10 of her girlfriends swilling pitchers of beer and doing shots. I said hello to Beth, nodded to her friends, then rejoined my group. One by one, Beth's friends wandered over and gushed, "I hear you asked Beth out!" I said that yes, I had -- two years ago. And once! Do you think Beth painted me as a stalker or some stain that wouldn't go away, or was I a victim of some rare chick moment?
--Mystified
People say things for a reason. Sometimes, the reason is that they are nervous and socially awkward and burp out the first thing they can that's made of words. "I think I may have something else to do" could've meant "anything but go out with you," or maybe she just couldn't think of a good excuse for the real deal: "The lady at the clinic told me to avoid all sexual contact until the burning and itching goes away."
It's unlikely Beth gave you her number just so she could prank you two years later. Chances are, she liked you and then felt insulted that you never called again despite the strong signals she gave you: stony silence, followed two years later by a gauntlet of her drunk friends. You didn't help matters with your little policy of never asking for a date more than once. This can be a workable strategy -- if you're Jake Gyllenhaal and you have women tossing their panties with their phone number over the booth divider whenever you go out to eat.
When a woman you've asked out turns you down in some nebulous way, asking her out again will either get you a date or confirm that she's a lost cause. It helps if you can divorce rejection from how you feel about yourself. Remember, it's called "self-worth," not "what girls think of me-worth." Try to see asking someone out as a procedural thing you have to go through -- ask once, then repeat -- kind of like "rinse, lather, repeat" directions on the back of a shampoo bottle. (Surely, you don't see "repeat" as a message from your shampoo manufacturer that you're a worthless human being who can't be trusted to clean his disgusting greasehead the first time around.)
Why not just walk away? Because, well, sometimes the guy who looks like a giant Martian baby gets the girl. I'm talking about a guy who writes at the coffeehouse I do -- a guy the color of fresh Wite-Out, with no eyebrows, eyelashes, or hair, who has a stunningly beautiful wife. Loads of men always ogled her, he told me -- and then just stood there with their mouths open, never getting to the point where their lips moved and "Wanna go out with me?" came out. Maybe some of those guys now realize that good things come to those who wait -- good things like a fleeting glance at the hot wife of the weird-looking guy who gets that far better things come to those who ask.
Yep, gotta remember that "ask" does not equal "beg". A simple "Oh, that's a bummer, well, call me when you have chance and we'll get coffee." would have been a perfect response to her nebulosity.
Kat at April 19, 2011 5:17 PM
"When a woman you've asked out turns you down in some nebulous way, asking her out again will either get you a date or confirm that she's a lost cause."
If a woman turns you down in a nebulous way, a sensible guy backs off and moves on in life.
A chirpy "Yes, that sounds WONDERFUL!" is what a person asking you out deserves, if you want to go out with them, that is.
Anything else, even a desultory "yeah, sure" is pretty much a "no" in terms of how the asker hears it.
Ms. Alkon's advice is fine if the gal says, "Oh, rats! I would love to, but my sister is in town that weekend. If you can do it another time, I would certainly say yes."
But a nebulous "no, I have something else I have to do"?
Letterwriter Dude, in those cases: MOVE ON! No need to try again, and become fodder for the "he's a creepy stalker" overreaction.
Spartee at April 19, 2011 5:55 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2057897">comment from SparteeAgain, Spartee, people sometimes get socially awkward and don't say the thing that invites the person to call again. Not because they don't want the person to call, but because they froze in the moment.
There's something called "Error Management Theory," by Martie Haselton and David Buss, about making the least costly mating error. It is less costly for a man to maybe be humiliated than miss a mating opportunity. Smart men don't take rejection personally and are thus able to ask again if they like the woman. A woman who not only tells you she hasn't had a date in forever AND gives you her phone number is probably not trying to fuck with you, but to get a date with you.
Amy Alkon at April 19, 2011 6:00 PM
A woman who not only tells you she hasn't had a date in forever AND gives you her phone number is probably not trying to fuck with you, but to get a date with you.
Let's assume your assertions are true and she had a brainfart. It happens. So what is wrong with her eating that tiny morsel of crow and calling him saying "That thing? It didn't happen and I felt bad to put you off. Is your offer still open?" He already took the first step. Instead, she'd prefer to hit herself on the forehead with a phone receiver like we see in so many cheesy romantic comedies for saying something stupid but 'maintains her dignity'...alone.
From the sounds of it, she was waving this guy in like a deckhand on an aircraft carrier. So why did she stop? It seems they were running into each other regularly. Is her pride so important that she'd rather sit by the phone in a dark room waiting for that second call that never materializes vs maybe, I don't know, say the next time she sees him "Wow. It's going to be a long boring weekend! Heck, even dinner with mom looks good!" If she can't give him a follow up wave in due to insecurity, it's probably no big loss to the LW.
Frankly, I get the sense that the LW wants the odd reactions of the party goers interpreted so he knows if he's an 'eew yuck' guy or a 'Wow, you asked her out. How about me?" guy
flydye at April 19, 2011 6:49 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2058163">comment from flydyeSo what is wrong with her eating that tiny morsel of crow and calling him saying "That thing? It didn't happen and I felt bad to put you off. Is your offer still open?" He already took the first step. I
What is wrong is that it didn't happen.
Also, women shouldn't ask men out for dates. It often doesn't end well, despite all the guys who will tell you they LOVE to be asked out. What they love is not being rejected. There's a dance that goes on in dating and pretending that being equal under the law means men and women are biologically and psychologically the same is a fuckup that again, often does not end well.
Amy Alkon at April 19, 2011 6:59 PM
Rereading, I'm seeing something else.
I called to ask her out and...silence. She then said, "I can't...as I think I may have something else to do."
That silence is a killer. If that happened to me, I would pretty much figure that something changed on her part after giving me the high sign 3 times. Maybe she found a BF. Maybe she figured she was gay. Maybe she found out I had 300 frigging webpages of porn on my phone! Something changed from 'WOW, I'm lonely' to (awkward silence). It's like a rattlesnakes rattle. (It isn't clear if he gave her a time and date. If he just asked her out nebulously and she said "I can't", it's vastly different then if he said "Let's go out Friday" Yes, he probably should have given her a different option for the time frame, but it really sounds like she wasn't interested.)
Add in this fact: I saw her around occasionally, and we were polite.
Essentially, if she suddenly didn't have 'maybe something coming up', she could have resubmitted her number, given him a high sign, apologized and had coffee, tossed her hair, or even dropped her panties on a dinner plate for him. If she was still interested, it was possible to revist the issue. It doesn't sound like he was going out of his way to be rude or distant.
flydye at April 19, 2011 7:01 PM
What is wrong is that it didn't happen.
No. He DID ask her on a date. She put him off but could have given him another wave in which didn't involve 'asking him out'. They saw each other. They were polite to each other. If there are some facts I'm missing, please fill me in.
Also, women shouldn't ask men out for dates. It often doesn't end well, despite all the guys who will tell you they LOVE to be asked out. What they love is not being rejected.
Okay. I agree. She did reject him. Changing one's mind about rejecting a date is not, IMO, the same as 'asking him out' It is saying 'dinner with mom got canceled' She could have made any excuse in the world to explain herself after the fact. But she assumed that the man needs to do ALL the heavy lifting and know when 'yes' means 'no', 'no' means 'no', and 'I can't...I might have something to do' means 'PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask me out again' If this is a dance, she's wearing steel tip boots with two left feet.
flydye at April 19, 2011 7:11 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2058208">comment from flydyeWomen make a mistake by not flirting and giving men signals that they are interested. Men who have the snivelly attitude of taking rejection personally likewise make a mistake. The notion that you don't pursue an opportunity because it didn't go exactly the way you'd like, well, if that's your rule, have at it. It will likely leave you where it left this guy: Spending two years wondering, with his dick in his hand.
Amy Alkon at April 19, 2011 7:28 PM
An opportunity not going the way you want is asking the girl out and her saying that she already had plans for that night. The girl's response made it clear that she was no longer interested. He moved on.
She dropped a major hint. He followed up and she showed no interest. It might have been a brain fart on her part or it might have been something else was going where she couldn't give a straight answer. But she made it clear after he asked her out that she wasn't interested.
Mark S. at April 19, 2011 8:07 PM
The most odd part of this story to me is how someone would bring up the fact that someone asked them out two years after the fact.
Clearly whatever “Beth” said was enough to encourage each of her friends to head over and inquire about this event (or more accurately non-event as they never ended up going out on a date).
The whole situation just sounds strange to me. Strange enough that I don’t blame this guy for not asking her out a second time.
It sounds to me like he is more of a story to tell her friends than he is an actual romantic interest. If she was interested she could have approached him herself that night instead of all of her friends heading over instead.
Perhaps he would be better off calling to ask her if one of her other friends that he met that night is available.
Reality at April 19, 2011 8:47 PM
I'm curious how not reasking someone who plainly wasn't interested was 'snively' and 'taking it personally' but the woman, who takes his lack of follow up with grudgelike taciturnity, is what? Not taking things personally? Not spending her Saturdays washing her hair instead of dating? This seems like a double standard.
Context is everything. If they are meeting in even a semi-professional manner (not stated) a guy will ask ONCE. Twice opens him up to allegations which stain. Pursue a woman one whit more then they desire and they are a stalker or a sexual harasser. One whit less, it seems, and you are snivelly. Nice.
flydye at April 19, 2011 9:17 PM
If the girl doesn't like you enough to respond with an overwhelming "YES!" or possibly a "I got my mother's funeral but how about the day after? Ooooo I can't WAIT!" then your return on investment (ROI) will be low...probably too low.
Its not enough just to get a date, but also a high quality date...ie someone who is waaay into you.
I don't care her reasons or brainfart or whatever....a girl whos really really into you will respond enthusiastically. Any other girl....well who cares if u can eke a date out of her if you try harder. Move on to find a girl who likes you enough initially. The quality of interaction will be much HIGHER. Period.
The LW did the sensible thing. If he still had been curious about her he could have tried to kiss her in person the next time they saw each other. Nothing like a kiss to cut through the deception.
Peter at April 19, 2011 9:29 PM
It does sound strange. Why were the friends asking him about such a trivial non-event? I can see how he would be worried that she was basically saying to them "can you believe that disgusting troll asked me out?"
I must admit I wouldn't have followed it up either from that response. An answer like "I can't then but call me in a week", or a followup text message saying "sorry I was busy and distracted when you called, ring me back" - anything. Give me something to indicate you're still interested.
I did exactly this a few months back. Met girl in bar, kissed girl, swapped numbers, on her request promised to call, called next afternoon. "Hi....(long pause)....I'm driving, can I call you back?". I agree, happily, no problem. Never heard back. Needless to say, I didn't chase that one and didn't lose any sleep over it. Her loss.
That silence is a killer.
Agreed, flydye, the pause is bad news :)
Ltw at April 19, 2011 9:49 PM
As an outside observer, my guess is that she'd been seeing someone and it's finally ended. Her girlfriends know that she likes him, so now that she's single again, they figured that they'd let him know. If he likes her, he should ask her out again.
puddles at April 19, 2011 10:16 PM
This is one of those confusing letters that makes me wish we had an ATM camera view of what actually went down. As it is, maybe the guy is some doofus who's been waitlisted for two years, but it sounds more likely that this girl is some uppity bitch who acted like she wanted something off the menu, was presented exactly what she ordered, and then decided it was beneath her. And I think we all know now the reason why she hadn't been asked out in a long time. The best thing our LW could have done was to give a cursory acknowledgement to Beth (or even better—"who?") and then send drinks over to several of her friends.
Razor at April 19, 2011 10:22 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2058479">comment from flydye. Pursue a woman one whit more then they desire and they are a stalker or a sexual harasser. One whit less, it seems, and you are snivelly. Nice.
I made it clear. Ask twice. And be sure you actually ask. I saw the guy without the hair last week. He's smart and confident (and I actually find him sexy). His wife had very few dates because guys wouldn't ask her out. He went for what he wanted. Gregg, too, did the same, and he's introverted (I once wrote a column with a bit on how he'd really rather talk to the dog at a party -- which actually is usually the truth). Gregg not only overcame his natural reticence to ever talk to a stranger, he asked me out, and three hours later, walked me to my car and grabbed me and kissed me. This is why he's my boyfriend and not some cute guy I once saw at the Apple Computer store at The Grove.
Amy Alkon at April 19, 2011 10:44 PM
I suppose it wouldn't hurt him to ask once more, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. In my single days, if a girl turned me down for a date, that answer was final no matter how many more times I asked.
Rex Little at April 20, 2011 1:00 AM
Amy,
This is a very interesting discussion because it's really highlighting the difference in perception between the genders. You can see by how many men are responding that this sort of thing really chafes us. Oh, by the way, every man that has posted on here so far is one hundred percent right.
We're more than happy to ask twice if we get some sort of enthusiasm. Peter made an excellent point that if the "yes" is coupled with a "meh" sort of attitude, it's going to be a crappy date.
I get excited about the prospect of dating someone new, why shouldn't the woman? Who wants to date a drip?
To imply that this guy is some sort of milquetoast for not pursuing her further is silly. Someone who is interested will be cheerful and offer an opportunity for a follow up call. There isn't anything in the portion of this guy's letter that we can see that says that he was crushed by the rejection.
I asked a woman to the opera just yesterday. Here was her response, "Oh gee, I'd love to, but I'm going to be out of the country next week. But thanks very much for asking. I'll be back next Sunday, please give me a call again." Was that so fucking hard? Maybe it's an excuse and she doesn't like opera, I don't know. But I know it's not a rejection. I'll give her a call another time. Compare that with, "Uh .... I MIGHT have something to do."
You spoke of Gregg's heroic pursuit. When he asked you out the first time, did you say anything like you might have something to do? I doubt it. You left the door open and this girl didn't.
whistleDick at April 20, 2011 4:18 AM
Also, I agree with flydye that the letter writer doesn't seem to be pining for the woman so much as wondering why her girlfriends would've reacted that way.
I'm betting that "Beth" maybe isn't so good looking or at least isn't confident about her looks. I'm having a bit of fun making wild assumptions based on her lack of confidence on the phone and from her admission that she hadn't been asked out in a long time.
I'm also betting that the letter writer is a good looking fella. This assumption is based on the "chick moment" (his words) that he seems to have experienced.
I imagine that after he greeted "Beth" and her friends at the table, the obvious question was, "Who was that guy?"
Depending on how good looking the letter writer is, it may have been more like, "Oooh, WHO was THAT guy?"
Beth, perhaps looking to get points from her friends and stroke her underfed ego, coyly replies, "Oh, he's just a guy that asked me out a while back. I blew him off."
The girlfriends, knowing that the letter writer is out of their friend's league and eager to set her up, pounce on any bit of further information they can get.
I think that's what happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
WhistleDick at April 20, 2011 4:35 AM
One more thing...if "Beth" told her girlfriends that the letter writer was creepy at all, I don't think they would've been fishing for more information. They would've avoided him in favor of snickering behind his back. So, that possibility is out the window in my book.
whistleDick at April 20, 2011 4:43 AM
Amy, I think you may be missing the point. The problem, if I'm understanding it correctly, isn't that Beth failed to become the love of his life. It's that lately she has been indulging in malicious character assassination, using her own neurotic green-light-red-light reactions to paint him as some kind of unclean sexual predator. Frankly, he needs to stop wondering what he should have done two years ago, and start fighting fire with fire now. Tell her friends that she's a malicious kniving sleaze, even though it may well mean that he too will suffer in their eyes. He cannot let her get away with her vicious behavior. He needs to destroy her socially, before she destroys him.
Ken at April 20, 2011 4:45 AM
Um, Ken, how's that going to work out?
First you assume something, based on not enough information. Then you attack a person who may be perfectly innocent, based on the available info. Your objective of destruction, even if merited, is unlikely to be achieved by your tactics.
Do you have any friends?
MarkD at April 20, 2011 5:06 AM
I actually have to agree with most of the guys on this one to be honest. I would agree with you Amy that he should have asked again if she had given any indication that she would be receptive, but I didn't get that impression. Now, on the off chance that she really did have a brain fart (which I am finding hard to believe since she very clearly showed her interest by giving him her number to begin with but am trying to give the her the benefit of the doubt), she still had plenty of opportunity afterward to show him that she was actually interested and would be receptive to a second attempt. I do not buy that he should have just pursued it anyway just because he's a guy. He did what he was suppossed to do and asked her out. She said no. He walked away. Anything more and we would be calling this guy a stalker for not taking "no" for an answer.
I don't perceive LW as someone who seems like he's all that emotionally scarred from it. If anything, he seems to have a pretty healthy attitude about the whole thing. My understanding of his letter was that he was wondering why on earth all this girls friends are coming up to him inquiring about his asking her out two years after the fact. It seems to me that this girl is using him as a ploy in some weird girl competition. Of course I have also never been one of those girls to send mixed signals or fuck around with a guy just to get some attention so maybe I am just not understanding what’s going on. If I liked a guy, Imade it obvious, and when he asked me out, I said “Yes”. Pretty simple. I have no patience for those girls who say "No" but really mean "Yes" and then all offended when the guy takes her "no" as a "no" and then bitch about still being single. I am all for a bit of mystery in a relationship, but whether or not I am actually into the guy shouldn't be part of that mystery. It's stupid head games like that that end up causing trouble in relationships to begin with.
Sabrina at April 20, 2011 5:27 AM
I have a co-worker who was really hung up over a guy she met in a church group. She was convinced that he liked her and did all the flirty things you advise but he never made a move. This went on for months since she, like Amy, thought that a women should never, ever, ever ask a man on a date. I finally convinced her to offer to make him a home cooked meal. He thanked her but said he had a girlfriend in another city and couldn't accept. So now she knows and can move on. She's actually relieved she finally made a move.
DrMaturin at April 20, 2011 5:59 AM
I was busy the 1st 2 times DH called and asked me to do something. The first time, I needed to take a shower (really, he was calling for lunch and I'd just walked in from the gym). So I called him, and said "I'm free fri night and would love to do something". SHowed my interest, left him with the manly job of making the plans and taking over. Worked well.
momof4 at April 20, 2011 6:05 AM
Reality @ 8:47. Yes. I had the same question. It added to the "AVOID!" aspect of the whole thing.
Ms. Alkon thinks the guy should double down, because that is how this guy will get some. Some sort of game theory concept is invoked.
My advice would be move on, because based on the given fact, she sounds like a flake who deploys her posse of gals like a 14 year old teen. Who wants that?
"It seems to me that this girl is using him as a ploy in some weird girl competition."
Yeah. His best reaction is to remain politely distant, and when the posse is deployed, smile gently at their questions, and say "Yeah, I asked her out, and she said 'no.' I am still in recovery and therapy is going well. Hey, (eying friend up and down) are you free saturday?"
My guess is at least one of the ten would go for it, women being the way they are when it comes to competitive dating.
Spartee at April 20, 2011 6:32 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2060493">comment from DrMaturinI have a co-worker who was really hung up over a guy she met in a church group. She was convinced that he liked her and did all the flirty things you advise but he never made a move. This went on for months since she, like Amy, thought that a women should never, ever, ever ask a man on a date. I finally convinced her to offer to make him a home cooked meal. He thanked her but said he had a girlfriend in another city and couldn't accept. So now she knows and can move on. She's actually relieved she finally made a move.
Guys who do not make a move despite your strong flirting are: not interested (perhaps because they have a girlfriend, are gay, or you are not their type) or too big a weenie to ask you out. She found this out unnecessarily when she didn't just accept that he wasn't interested. The problem with asking a guy out is that a guy might say yes because it's better than nothing to go out with you but isn't motivated enough to do it to ask. You end up with a guy who's not that into you. Having the actual dance take place, where one person doesn't take over all the parts, sets up the challenge for the guy to prove himself: both as interested and as not such a gutless loser that he can't squeak out, "Will you go out with me."
Amy Alkon at April 20, 2011 6:33 AM
Here is a question for the ladies, girls, and vaguely female commenters on this site.
How many of you have made a guy ask you out twice? If you did, why? Were you not that into him? Were you playing hard to get? Were you mulling better options that never turned up?
If a guy asked you out, did you say 'I can't' or did you say 'not that day'? (I fully understand that she doesn't owe him a recital of facts as to why she might be unavailable. Those things happen and hearing about her pap smear really isn't a pre date conversation)
If, fems, you made a bad first impression on a guy but were still interested, did you blow him off for two years or did you wave him in some more?
I'm curious since this seems to be one of those gender things. Listening to AA, I'd definitely ask twice in any future singletude I have...but if this was the response I got, I'd definitely not have high expectations. After all, that lint trap won't clean itself...
flydye at April 20, 2011 6:34 AM
Amy I think you really missed the mark here. This question wasn't about her turning him down 2 years ago, it was about why she was bringing it up two years later and having her friends go over and harass him about it. From the LW's description he doesn't sound like he was heartbroken about the weird decline for the date that she dropped anvil-sized hints about in the first place, just about the weirdness of her friends and her 2 years later. I also thought this was odd.
I figured she was told her friends about him asking her out in some attempt to look high-and-mighty. (*pointing to LW*: "HE asked me out before." -- declines to mention this was 2 years ago. *pointing to bartender*: "HE asked me for my picture before." -- declines to mention it was her state ID. *pointing to garbage man*: "HE insisted on carrying my bags for me." -- declines to mention the bags are called Hefty.)
This high-and-mighty act probably means she has some sort of self-esteem issue to bring it up on a night of boozing 2 years later. She told her friends about it to make herself sound as if she were desirable, but obviously this lady is weird. If she wanted to date him initially she shouldn't have blown him off, screw all this "Read between the lines" crap. There was nothing to see but blank space.
My final bit to the LW is be glad you got away from this one with no self-worth. This "Beth" is the lady who has just finished a pint of ice cream at 300 pounds, asks you if she is fat, and cries when you don't answer with a "...no?" right away. Without ever letting go of the spoon and chocolate dribbling down her shirt.
me123 at April 20, 2011 6:34 AM
The LW: I rarely ask a lady a second time when a lady "may have something else to do."
Amy: You didn't help matters with your little policy of never asking for a date more than once.
Care to clarify this, Amy?
dee nile at April 20, 2011 7:17 AM
Guys who do not make a move despite your strong flirting are: not interested (perhaps because they have a girlfriend, are gay, or you are not their type) or too big a weenie to ask you out.
Correct in that case. But the LW did ask her out. Ok, maybe she felt awkward and screwed it up. But there are a lot of situations where you don't ask a second time, and this sounds like one of them. It might limit the LW's options, sure, but I'm with Peter and whistleDick that some sort of enthusiasm at the start is nice. I don't think she deserved a second chance.
Ltw at April 20, 2011 7:19 AM
I too think that LW is more confused about what the hell went down with "Beth's" friends at the bar than he is about anything directly related to "Beth". It seems pretty clear to me that in his mind he got signals, he gave it a shot and her less than enthusiastic response and lame excuse (the modern equivalent of "gee, I'm washing my hair that night") was cause for him to write her off and move on. If her friends hadn't stopped by and asked him about asking her out I'm sure this would've been just one in a series of pleasant/polite exchanges the two have had over the last two years.
Neil G. at April 20, 2011 7:22 AM
"Guys who do not make a move despite your strong flirting are: not interested (perhaps because they have a girlfriend, are gay, or you are not their type) or too big a weenie to ask you out."
I am unsure what qualifies as "strong flirting", so I am not sure if I agree or not.
I can only speak for myself on this one, but when I was younger, I rarely clued into gals flirting with me. A gal pretty much had to grab the lapel of my leather jacket and lean into kiss me before she would get full attention.
I almost never asked a gal out. I was focused on sports, grades, fixing my V8 hot rod, drinking myself into a stupor, or finding my motorcycle jacket after yet another wild night.
I was, like any young guy, keenly interested in lots of girls I met, of course. But I was also a bit too energetic to slow down and ask them out. The ones who flirted and waited for me to ask them out? (And looking back on it, you start to realize how many there were.) I simply never asked them out.
Even when it comes to adult long term relationships, it often occurs to me that the guys I know were often targeted by their wives, who were not shy at all about pursuing their future husbands. Those husbands were busy building careers, staying in shape and generally focused on their life, not women in general, let alone any woman in particular. The women simply made it happen, once they zeroed in on the guy.
In sum, if a gal hopes a guy she wants will respond to her flirting, my anecdotal experience is guys may easily miss it, because they are focused on other goals. It is also likely that any guy a particular gal wants is also wanted by other women, so some flirting by a particular gal is not impacting him as much as the flirting party thinks; he gets that same treatment elsewhere.
But a bold statement of interest by the women has worked well in may instances I have seen. At least if the measure of "worked" is stable marriages producing kids and reasonably happy spouses. But all that is anecdotal, based on the few dozen people I am reasonably close to.
Spartee at April 20, 2011 7:39 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2060565">comment from me123Amy I think you really missed the mark here. This question wasn't about her turning him down 2 years ago, it was about why she was bringing it up two years later and having her friends go over and harass him about it.
He liked her and was interested in her. And her friends went over independently, not apparently directed by her. (I write an advice column not an advice book every week, so I can't include every detail; I just try to give the best recounting I can while not having my column be 1,000 extra words).
If you like a woman, and if you have balls, it's wise to err on the side of not scurrying away when you have a nebulous response. You do this by not looking at rejections as knocks on you -- which eliminates "policy" like never asking a woman out twice. Silly.
You can also stand your ground and be all pouty and stick to your one-ask rules -- and you will likely miss dating people you'd have a good thing with. There are numerous opportunities in my life that I have because I didn't take no for an answer. Even when it seemed reasonable to do. And I know of a good many couples who are together because the guy persisted in asking the girl out after some misunderstanding at the start.
The error people here are making is saying how things "should" be instead of how they often are: People can be socially awkward and not realize the right thing to say until they hang up the phone. Staircase wisdom, they call it in France -- realizing what you should have said in an argument with your lover as you're storming down the stairs. Being human, it's a thing.
Amy Alkon at April 20, 2011 7:40 AM
Amy Says:
"He liked her and was interested in her."
I notice that you used the past tense here and I believe that may be important.
The questions for me are does he still like her and is he still interested?
If the answer is no then I see no point in him going after her again. Interest can subside after two years, and given the circumstances it is possible that the interest that existed before is now gone.
If the answer is yes, then sure, give it another shot just to see what will happen.
Based upon what is written I didn't get the impression that he was still interested in her but was more wondering what was up with the odd behavior in the bar.
Reality at April 20, 2011 8:15 AM
"That silence is a killer. If that happened to me, I would pretty much figure that something changed on her part after giving me the high sign 3 times."
Here's another possibility: the number wasn't meant for him but for his better-looking friend. There are some callous women out there who assume that guys know when they're out of their league, and her silence and textbook rejection of him (she might as well have said, "I'm washing my hair") indicates to me that she was shocked he thought it was HIM she was interested in.
Flash forward 2 years and she's still giggling about it with her girlfriends - and not in a "I really blew it with him" kind of way but "can you believe that guy asked me out?" way...a fact the drunken girls had to confirm solely for their amusement. If she'd still (or ever) been interested, one of her friends would've passed on that information.
She sounds like a bitch, frankly. Who does that to some poor guy she rejected?
lovelysoul at April 20, 2011 8:22 AM
I think this is an example of trying to force an octagonal peg into a round hole, Ms. Alkon. You really want to make it fit, but it keeps getting caught on these subtle corners.
To wit: You are making a statement about ball-less guys who snively take a 'no' the first time as a emotionally wrenching experience and forever afterwards tosses aside a perfectly good (albeit not particularly loquacious) girl. You are making a statement about pursuit and being a man, who should still, somehow, be totally cognizant of how a girl flirts.
The problem is, while this is a valid and even an important point, it doesn't fit here. She dropped BIG hints (and girls, take a lesson there. Panties on the dinner plate is over the top but twirling your hair on your finger just doesn't cut it) and he ASKED! He wasn't pining on the sidelines like toad man's wife wannabes.
She gave 'come on' signals...but when it came to the clutch, she suddenly waved him off and you are blaming him for not being a mind reader.
Nowhere in your column (which I understand has a word count) does it suggest that the guy spent the last two years masturbating over 'might have beens'. It sounds like he knows what he wants: a girl who, when he puts his balls on the table, says 'yes'. Not YES. Not HELL YES. Not 'Take me now!" (though all of these are also perfectly good) Just 'yes'. This is not an unreasonable expectation. We'd even take a 'no' with a caveat. "Not now" gives hope. "I might have something that might come up" sounds like the girl is equating him to scrubbing out the tub or uncompensated overtime, hardly the thing that makes the heart beat faster.
To put it into perspective: If Gregg had come up to you and said "I might be free sometime and wanted to know if you'd like to do something if nothing better comes along" I doubt you'd have been kissing in the parking lot. That is her level of enthusiasm. The 'ball-less one here (in a metaphorical as well as technical sense) is the girl.
flydye at April 20, 2011 8:33 AM
It's a relief to see some of the comments challenging Amy's response on this one. I was miffed enough to look up this website for the first time, after reading the column in a local weekly newspaper.
I don't fully agree with the stance of women never asking men out. But even if we do accept that it's a man's responsibility to risk rejection, then what is the woman's responsibility? Or as Amy indicated above, what is a woman "biologically and psychologically" prepared for?
How about empathic and effective communication? The woman in the story shows none of it. She gave him absolutely no reason to ask her out again, and I personally wouldn't have looked back if I was the one who asked her. Why subject myself to someone who gives such mixed messages and never acknowledges her role in the outcome?
And besides that, I am also miffed at the belittling line "You didn't help matters with your little policy of never asking for a date more than once."
In my view, you're being way too hard on this guy, Amy. It seems as though the woman in this scenario can do nothing wrong.... complete BS.
Nick at April 20, 2011 8:43 AM
"The error people here are making is saying how things "should" be instead of how they often are: People can be socially awkward and not realize the right thing to say until they hang up the phone. Staircase wisdom, they call it in France -- realizing what you should have said in an argument with your lover as you're storming down the stairs. Being human, it's a thing."
How about learning? It's a thing, too. When you storm down the stairs, you realize your mistake, try to make it right, and if you really recognize the mistake, you try to see it coming next time sooner. Problem is, this woman never shows any indication of sending a wrong message. Instead of simply being polite to the letter-writer, she could have started a conversation that indicated an interest to resume the potential dating scenario. You're suggesting, Amy, that the man has to take all of the responsibility for the mis-communication. Doing so would set up a dysfunctional dynamic for any potential relationship that did ensue.
Nick at April 20, 2011 8:56 AM
How many of you have made a guy ask you out twice? If you did, why? Were you not that into him? Were you playing hard to get? Were you mulling better options that never turned up?
Honestly? I was just out of a long relationship that ended badly and I wasn't looking for more than friendship. He stuck around, as a friend, and when he asked again I said yes. We had an awkward date that turned into even more awkward sex, but we remained friends and were even roommates for a while. We eventually fell out of touch, but through him I met some people who remain dear friends to this day.
Beth Cartwright at April 20, 2011 8:58 AM
Beth, that's a little different. I assume you told the guy you just weren't ready yet, so he stuck around, but this woman gave him no indication, as far as I can tell, that he should ask her out again.
In answer to the question, I've never made a guy I really wanted to go out with ask me twice. And, if I'd frozen, or blurted out something stupid in the moment, I would consider it my responsibility to address that with him. A simple e-mail or text saying, "I hope you didn't take that as not wanting to go out with you because I do" would suffice.
lovelysoul at April 20, 2011 9:08 AM
Meh. No way would I have asked out this flake again. I had a somewhat similar thing happen. Met a tall, striking blonde in a brewpub. Spent a couple of hours talking to her and she seemed very interested. Neither of us drank much, but we talked a lot. Asked for her number and she practically fell over herself giving it to me. Called her a couple days later to ask for a date. Got voicemail and left a "hey, it's Mike from the pub, enjoyed talking to you, give me a call" kind of message. No return call. Called again a few days later. Got voicemail again. Didn't bother to leave a message.
Ran into her in another pub a month later. "Blahblahblahblah, sorry I never called you back, blahblahblahblah, we should do something, blahblahblahblah." Not happening, because instead of pining away for Tall Striking Blonde, I'd long since moved on. I was at this pub on a first date with Gorgeous Young Brunette - who DID answer the phone when I called her.
The guys here are spot on. Beth is a bloody flake for giving this guy all kinds of signals then shooting him down when he responded. I don't buy the "socially awkward" thing. She's socially adept enough to be out at a bar with a gaggle of other women pounding drinks and telling dating stories. This is not the kind of thing a socially inept person does.
There is really very little reason to crawl and beg for a date after you've been soundly rejected once. Move on to a woman who actually wants to go out. Women aren't exactly hard to meet, and very, very few of them are interesting or special enough to repeatedly beg for dates.
MikeInRealLife at April 20, 2011 9:12 AM
The problem is that we only have LW's interpretation to go on here, so we don't know if Beth was legitimately into him and pulled a 180, or if he's just socially awkward and misread the signals. The flirting could have been imagined on his part, the "haven't been asked out" could have been him overhearing her commiserating with her girlfriends, and she could have just given him her number because she didn't know how to say no. Or because she was in a social situation where it would have been rude to turn him down, or as lovelysoul said she could have been so far out of his league that it didn't even cross her mind that he'd make a move--which considering her caught-of-guard response seems likely.
Real-life example, but with the sexes reversed: a couple months ago, my roommates and I had a party at which this obnoxious overweight girl spent about 20-30 minutes talking to our personal trainer friend, and was thrilled that she was able to get his number and give him hers and kept talking about him the next day, etc. Now, we have a pretty small apartment, there were only 30 or so people there, and pretty much everyone knew each other or had mutual friends; as a result it would have been really difficult for him to avoid her advances or get out of exchanging numbers without being blatantly rude, and he's a very nice guy. But no one in their right mind would have thought that a girl who is probably 80-100 pounds overweight would legitimately expect someone whose career revolves around health and fitness to be interested in her. Indeed, the guy had no idea when we related this to him-in fact, he had actually been interested in her cute friend and assumed that overweight girl had intended to pass his number on to her!
So it's possible that the LW's experience runs a little closer to my story than, say, MikeInRealLife's above me--where the girl in question legitimately pulled a bait and switch. Regardless, I think he made the right decision not to ask her out again. No need to get shot down twice.
Shannon at April 20, 2011 9:30 AM
Shannon Says:
"The problem is that we only have LW's interpretation to go on here, so we don't know if Beth was legitimately into him and pulled a 180, or if he's just socially awkward and misread the signals."
You are really pulling off some mental gymnastics here to try and make this case.
You've essentially suggested everything short of her phone number spontaneously flying out of her purse and into his hand.
Let's try and be realistic here, women don't give their actual phone numbers to men they only know casually by accident.
Reality at April 20, 2011 9:44 AM
This is the guy version of "he's just not that into you." In general, I agree with Amy that it's better when a guy does the pursuing, or at least the intial asking. That way, a woman knows he's into her enough to make the move, and that bodes well for the overall relationship. But shouldn't a guy have the same comfort of knowing a woman will say "yes" the first time?
We're inventing all kinds of reasons why she might have shot him down (she froze, is socially inept, or had an embarrassing itch), but that's the same way women make up improbable reasons why a guy doesn't call (he's in the hosipital, traveling, or adbucted by aliens).
Yet, put simply, if he's into you, he'll call, and if she's into you, she'll answer and say "yes".
lovelysoul at April 20, 2011 9:46 AM
"Let's try and be realistic here, women don't give their actual phone numbers to men they only know casually by accident."
My gf did this very thing the other night. She's newly single, and lonely, and while we were out, she gave her number to a guy we struck up a conversation with at the bar. I could tell he wasn't her type, so I asked her if she was attracted to him, and she answered "no" that she just wanted someone to go out with "as friends." She thought she explained this with "I'm not ready to date...just need a friend...blah blah blah" but I could tell he heard, "I'm a vulnerable hot mess who would like to go out with you, and maybe something will happen...here's my number." He thought it was his lucky night and began texting her sweet little nothings for days until I made her clarify to him that she was TRULY not interested in a romance.
lovelysoul at April 20, 2011 9:55 AM
Why put yourself out there? Whats the point in being humiliated? Odds are good your gonna get shot down, do you really feel like dealing with that. Listen, she says yes, you go out it goes well, fast forward...married, two kids, ten years later she files divorce, cause shes bored. You lose everything youve worked for, you lose your house, your kids are taken from you because your a male. You get to shell out "child rent" every month to a vindictive slag who is hell bent on ruining you because you wrecked her life. You never recover financially, ever. Your kids barely know you, thanks to Family Court and your treated like a felon by the legal system even though you commited no crime. Why? cause you wanted to ask out some female who couldnt care less if you showed up in a body bag. Dodge the bullet pal, dodge the bullet.
jdc at April 20, 2011 10:11 AM
Um, Lovelysoul? It wasn't an accident. She did it on purpose. She even had clear motives. That is not the case with the suggestions made by Shannon. In fact, the obvious way to deal with the pressing number seeker is overlooked: Write a false number and everyone's face is preserved. Common as dirt for guys.
flydye at April 20, 2011 10:24 AM
JDC, I am concerned you are presently shaving your head before heading up to the top of the belltower with a scoped Ruger and ammo container.
Spartee at April 20, 2011 10:24 AM
"I can't...as I think I may have something else to do."
A tactless answer like this is a red flag screaming 'flake.'
Consider her a bullet dodged.
lsomber at April 20, 2011 10:32 AM
Reading through prior conversation, and had to chime in regarding Amy's interaction with "flydye", and in particular Amy's post:
Women make a mistake by not flirting and giving men signals that they are interested. Men who have the snivelly attitude of taking rejection personally likewise make a mistake. The notion that you don't pursue an opportunity because it didn't go exactly the way you'd like, well, if that's your rule, have at it. It will likely leave you where it left this guy: Spending two years wondering, with his dick in his hand.
Wow -- this is an incredibly simplistic view of the dating situation. Yes, women can make the mistake of not flirting, and men can make the mistake of not growing a pair, but conversations that potentially lead to a date are a hell of a lot more subtle and shared than you indicate here. Any person, regardless of gender, who does not take responsibility for the message they're sending out, is a glaring red flag for a problematic relationship. Women can absolutely err in the way that flydye points out:
she assumed that the man needs to do ALL the heavy lifting and know when 'yes' means 'no', 'no' means 'no', and 'I can't...I might have something to do' means 'PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ask me out again' If this is a dance, she's wearing steel tip boots with two left feet.
I'd move on from this girl with a clear conscience and, contrary to what Amy believes about me waiting for two years with my dick in my hand, I'd actually be looking for a woman who can express herself in a subtle, engaged, & responsible way.
Nick at April 20, 2011 10:37 AM
I'm going to have to agree that he was right in not asking her out again. There are LOTS of fish in the sea, I mean LOTS. Why keep pursuing the one that said no when there's lots of other girls around the corner that WILL say yes? He's really got nothing to lose by dropping her and going with the next girl he meets. It was a missed opportunity, not a relationship.
Add to this the fact that he didn't sound all that broken up about not getting to date her. What he actually asked about was getting really weirded out by all her friends coming over one by one and going "hey aren't you that guy that asked her out". He didn't really ask about "why didn't she date me". In that case, yes, it was just a weird girl moment. People remember (and do) the strangest things, especially when drunk.
Sarah at April 20, 2011 11:15 AM
"In fact, the obvious way to deal with the pressing number seeker is overlooked: Write a false number and everyone's face is preserved. Common as dirt for guys."
Great strategy at a bar where you're reasonably sure that you're never going to see the person again. Bad strategy if they're someone you run into a lot, or you have mutual friends, or they're a nice person and you don't want to be blatantly rude.
Did you read the rest of my comment? That was a perfect example of a situation where one person couldn't get out of giving their number, and their intentions were misconstrued by a person who was socially clueless...except with the sexes reversed from the LW's scenario. It happens!
Shannon at April 20, 2011 11:35 AM
She was awkward when she blew him off and he decided not to ask her out again. None of this is weird at all. It happens everyday. Sounds like over two years they were cordial to each other when they saw each other and nothing more. And instead of the fake I don't see you in this very small place he did the polite things by acknowledging
Beth and her friends as he joined his friends.
Whatever drunken conversation went on the girls table in an unknown. I do have to say that if she had painted him as a stalker or creepy, those girls would never have approached him to say ANYTHING! No woman wants to bring herself to the attention of a stalker. They would have sent death ray looks at him from their table, they would have pointedly ignored him when they had to pass him.
No my bet is Beth is having some regrets because she had a bad relationship in the last few years and the girls were out scouting the territory for her. I can hear it now after a few beers and shots Beth says "can you believe I turned that guy sitting over there down and spent all that time with the creep who just dumped me?" I am not saying the LW should ask her out nope not at all. I think her behavior is immature at best and manipulative at worst. If Beth had any interest in the LW she should have put on her big girl pants and made an excuse to pass his table and stop and talk.
It sounds like immature drunken behavior on the part of all the women and if I was the LW I would ignore the behavior and barely if at all acknowledge Beth when I see her in the future. I think he was lucky he did not have that date in the first place with her.
BTW I am a woman and can not stand it when I see other women playing such idiotic games.
worthit at April 20, 2011 1:13 PM
I think this particular woman valued attention more than dating. She didn't compalin she hadn't been on a date in a long time. She said she hadn't been ASKED OUT. So by playing it this way she scored a two-fer: the attention of the man who called and two years later, the attention of her friends after they heard whatever far-feteched spin she put on it. She didn't need to go on a date to get the attention. Maybe she's too shy to date, or easily bored, or wasn't into him enough to give him an evening.
Either way the LW responded appropriately; no harm no foul to either party except that he needed an interpreation of the scene with her friends in the bar.
As a side note I will add that nice guys like the LW WILL take no for an answer in situations strong and obvious mutual chemistry is lacking. Furthermore they should continue to accept that no. They aren't interested in pursuing every visually appealing female. They're looking for a stronger and more genuine connection right from the start. To do otherwise is to play the numbers game, make themselves a player. And a man who makes multiple passes at one woman will make multiple passes at multiple women. This is the ladies' tip for how to spot a player: there's no mutual chemistry but he must be interested because he keeps calling. Nope, he's a player working his phone tree.
TL at April 20, 2011 1:59 PM
The problem is that we only have LW's interpretation to go on here, so we don't know if Beth was legitimately into him and pulled a 180, or if he's just socially awkward and misread the signals. The flirting could have been imagined on his part, the "haven't been asked out" could have been him overhearing her commiserating with her girlfriends, and she could have just given him her number because she didn't know how to say no. Or because she was in a social situation where it would have been rude to turn him down, or as lovelysoul said she could have been so far out of his league that it didn't even cross her mind that he'd make a move--which considering her caught-of-guard response seems likely.
Seriously, there are a lot of possibilities here:
1) Beth is an attention whore, and flirted with a guy she never had any interest in
2) Beth wasn't really flirting, LW misread the signals
3) Beth was into LW at first, got cold feet and changed her mind
4) Beth is a Rules-following game player, who wants 3 ask-outs and the sacrifice of a live chicken before she'll lower herself to dating LW
Thankfully, the appropriate response in all scenarios is the same:
1) Walk away
2) Walk away
3) Walk away
4) Walk away
I don't think I've ever seen Amy be more wrong in one of her columns.
kf at April 20, 2011 2:17 PM
"If you like a woman, and if you have balls, it's wise to err on the side of not scurrying away when you have a nebulous response."
True, but there was absolutely nothing nebulous about this girl's response. She might as well have said, "hell no."
whistleDick at April 20, 2011 2:26 PM
Just for the question of "who's made a guy ask twice", I did.
The first time, I just wasn't all that interested. I wasn't incredibly disinterested, either. I just wasn't super enthusiastic and wasn't in a great mood to boot.
The second time, he asked again, I was in a better mood and was impressed by his determination so figured "what's the worst that will happen?"
It was an awesome date. We're not together any more, but we were for quite a while.
So it can happen. I do think, though, that in general that after a lukewarm reaction, there's not much of a reason to ask a second time. It can work, yes, but in general, it's not going to.
Lia at April 20, 2011 3:56 PM
Sounds to me like she might have been playing hot and cold with you. I'm with Spartee, save your pride. In theory what Amy says sounds logical, but fact is if men had to kowtow to every woman that played games, they'd walk all over us constantly. If she just had a bad day or whatever, she could have dropped SOME kind of signal or message. Funnily enough my now-wife dropped me the first time I asked her out .. but the difference is she simply made it clear in a text message that she was still interested in being asked on a date again.
Lobster at April 20, 2011 11:41 PM
When a person says, "I can't...I think I may have something else to do," only a stalker wouldn't get the hint. Sounds to me like Beth isn't quick enough to think of a convincing excuse.
I'm trying to picture the parade of ten drunk women asking LW about Beth. I cannot believe that Beth had nothing to do with her friends' actions. If only one or two of the women had spoken to LW, I could believe that they took it upon themselves, but all ten? Unless Beth was unconscious, she must have known what her friends were doing. This is junior high school crap.
LW should not even acknowledge Beth's existence from this point onward. Beth sounds like a complete dingbat and LW should be grateful that he's not stuck with her.
Rozita at April 21, 2011 4:28 AM
OK, FWIW here's my interpretation of the letter:
LW misreads Beth's signals as her being interested in him and calls to ask her out. He's met with stony silence which he correctly interprets as her thinking "Good Lord, does this dweeb actually think I'd go out with him?" followed by here lamely getting him off the phone. Of course he never called again. Why would he?
Two years go by during which she neither says nor does anything to disabuse him of his opinion. One night he sees her in a bar and makes polite small talk before joining his friends. One by one, her drunk friends come up to him and ask "Did you actually think Beth would go out with you?" or words to that effect. Baffled and exasperated, LW writes Amy for help in interpreting this bizarre turn of events.
DrMaturin at April 21, 2011 5:06 AM
That's my take exactly, DrMaturin. If she liked him, she'd be mortified that even one much less all ten of her friends would say something. It sounds to me that this was a joke to her, which she shared at the table.
Of course, maybe she's so weird that her friends all believe they need to help her out. She never dates, then suddenly she lets them know she was once asked out by the nice guy in the corner.
It's possible, but either way, she's no prize that LW needs to kick himself over losing.
lovelysoul at April 21, 2011 6:18 AM
I agree completely with your last paragraph, lovelysoul. It sounds like Beth can't get over the hilarious notion that someone like LW would have a chance with someone as special as she. She did him a big favor by shooting him down.
I hope Beth likes cats.
DrMaturin at April 21, 2011 6:48 AM
If you are correct Dr, then Beth and her 10 friends must be *smokin'* hot, because that behavior is reprehensible, and none of them would ever date again were they not 10 degrees up from Georgia asphalt in July.
. . . and even so, I'll bet a date with any of that mob would be painful.
I just can't imagine why some men get deeply bitter toward women.
I just can't imagine.
railmeat at April 21, 2011 11:00 AM
Add my name to the list of those folks that think Amy is wrong on this one. The girl didn't seem like she was all that interested. Life is too short to date *meh*.
One call from him was plenty. If she was remotely interested, she would have volleyed.
LauraGr at April 21, 2011 1:15 PM
Another vote saying Amy missed the mark. Amy points out that Gregg was forward but she has also said many times in the passed that she flirted like hell with him at the same time. Not the case here, at least after the date attempt.
Astra at April 21, 2011 2:25 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2064011">comment from AstraYou cannot control what another person does. Women will often be jerks in terms of not letting men know they're interested. This guy really liked this woman. Would making one other call a month later really cost him anything -- if he doesn't make the mistake of confusing self-worth with what-other-people-think-of-me worth?
I give advice for the real world. Sometimes, people are socially awkward. There's an anthropologist I know who always makes me nervous, and I said something really embarrassing to him a couple years ago at an ev psych conference. (Turns out he makes a lot of people uncomfortable. But, I'm both extraverted and a bit shy -- I just don't let myself act like a shy person.)
If you ask somebody out that second time, you then know. So many people who write to me spend hours and hours (or more) wondering what the deal is. Silly. Life is short.
Amy Alkon at April 21, 2011 2:48 PM
There is that. You raise a good point that at the possibility of facing rejection again, he'd know for sure if she was a jerk or not for some closure.
The way it read to me, it seemed like he wasn't pining as much as hoping he could chase some tail in her friends group without getting laughed at. But on that, I say: Chase away. They're unlikely to be as diffident as Beth either for or against.
flydye at April 21, 2011 3:30 PM
Amy, if the LW was really into the woman, his letter did not seem to reflect that. At all. He seemed rather indifferent to the woman and bemused by her girl gauntlet.
LauraGr at April 22, 2011 7:13 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2065294">comment from LauraGrA guy doesn't lay his ego on the line and ask a woman out if he isn't into her.
Amy Alkon at April 22, 2011 7:26 AM
Amy,
He asked her out two years ago. Just because he was into her then doesn't mean he is still into her now.
Many things can change over two years.
You keep talking about his interest in the past tense:
"He liked her and was interested in her."
and
"This guy really liked this woman."
Did he say anything to indicate that he remains interested in her, or have you extrapolated continued interest based upon an action that is two years old?
If he said something that makes it clear he is still interested it doesn't come through in the letter presented here.
Reality at April 22, 2011 8:12 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2065356">comment from RealityHe is not still interested in her, but he was and probably missed an opportunity with her. The point isn't whether he's interested now, but how men miss out by being afraid to ask women out or by connecting their self-worth to how a woman responds to them. This is where many of you are missing the boat, by arguing about the stripes on the deck chairs.
Amy Alkon at April 22, 2011 8:48 AM
It's not so much about rejection and ego. It's more about there being a bajillion reasonably attractive single women out there, so why waste your time chasing one who rudely blows you off when you ask her out? Just dust yourself off and move on to the next one. Only a very few women are irreplaceable.
And as far as the LW holding his dick in his hand for two years, even if he did, he certainly didn't have to. My little story above, with Tall Striking Blonde and Gorgeous Young Brunette? The blonde got shitfaced in the pub and took a cab home alone. I got naked with the hot brunette that very night. Three cheers for moving on!
MikeInRealLife at April 22, 2011 9:02 AM
Amy,
Given what you just said, am I correct in assuming that your advice here is not for him to ask her out again now, but that he should have asked her out a second time two years ago?
If so that makes more sense to me than the alternative of advising him to ask out a woman two years later who he is no longer interested in.
I think this may be the disconnect here. I believe people are interpreting your advice to mean that he should be asking her out again now, not as advice about what he should have done in the past.
Reality at April 22, 2011 9:05 AM
Not really, Reality.
I figured she was talking about the initial approach.
Amy: A man should not be afraid of asking a woman out (He wasn't. He did.)
-or by connecting their self-worth to how a woman responds to them (Also not evident as written.)
There are 5 options here:
1. He is a confident fellow who has seen his share of girls, and generally (not always) gives a girl A shot. If she says no, particularly in a egregiously stupid and blunt manner, he gets on with his life. Who wants to date a Rude Person(Pat Pending)?
2. He is an incredibly sensitive fellow who's slightest rejection makes him swear off that woman, if not all women, for 2 years.
3. He is an arrogant jerk who thinks he's "The Situation". 'You get one shot at my dance card, beeatch'
4. He was interested in a girl out of his league, took a shot (which she encouraged according to LW), realized at the brush off that it wasn't meant to be, and held onto his tattered dignity. (Didn't someone write an article about how ugly duckling/swan romances are likely to fail? I foresee hard times for Captain Hairless...)
5. He was interested, but at the first brush off (which was a total fail) decided to wait to see if he misread the signals and waited for another wave in to avoid a) tattering his dignity more, b) insulting her, or c) wasn't that intersted and didn't want to waste his time.
But noone is looking at the girl. Why did she do what she did?
1. She was a flirt who got asked out by a guy she never intended to hook up with.
2. She was interested but she flubbed it...and then was so incredibly embarrassed with herself/insulted at his lack of pursuit that she totally washed her hands of him.
3. She was playing a cruel joke
4. The guy made all of this interest up in his head and she was astonished at the whole approach. I can totally see a girl seeing LW as 'a friend' whom she commiserates with regarding lack of dates...and gets a shock when he moves in.
5. She wasn't interested because something came up and instead of a gentle let down decided on nebulous and rude.
Yeah HE has issues...Only reason 4 is at all exculpatory to the girl, though 5 isn't too bad either. Number 2 makes her just as issue laden as the guy.
Why do you think the LW is a wimp, Amy?
flydye at April 22, 2011 11:30 AM
Amy, it was initially a bit confusing to me reading your advice to LW. But after reading his letter several times over again, and then reading yours several time, I can see where a disconnect is happening.
The way I understand LW's letter and the nature of his question to you, LW asked you about a situation where Beth's friends came up to him to inquire about his asking out Beth. It brought questions to his mind about how Beth may have characterized him to her friends.
You gave LW advice that didn't address his present concerns: whether Beth characterized him poorly or whether Beth's friends were being "chicks". Rather, it addressed why Beth may have brushed him off two years ago when he asked her out and how men should ask women out twice.
It seems to me that your advice to LW didn't address his present situation. It addressed how he should have asked Beth out a second time two years ago. Sure, LW could have asked Beth out a second time. But when he wrote, that was not what he inquired. He inquired about how he was perceived more so than whether or not he should ask Beth out again.
Your advice to him was, in general, valid. But in specifics, not applicable to what he asked your opinion on.
Jen Wading at April 22, 2011 11:46 AM
I agree with Jen. His question seems less about why he missed out on dating her and more of "why is she acting this way and telling her friends about this if she wasn't even interested?"
Sadly, there are women so insensitive that they'll laugh about this stuff, even with the guy sitting 10 ft away. She really shows a lack of character that she didn't stop her gfs from going over to his table and essentially making fun of him, or, at the very least, being inappropriate.
"The guy made all of this interest up in his head and she was astonished at the whole approach. I can totally see a girl seeing LW as 'a friend' whom she commiserates with regarding lack of dates...and gets a shock when he moves in."
I think this is probably what happened. I'm amazed how clueless some of my friends are about a guy being there for them to talk to, almost like another girlfriend, and it doesn't seem to register with them that he's also a GUY and probably doesn't view the interaction as innocent chatter but an opening for more. They send all the wrong, flirty signals, then are (supposedly) shocked when he hits on them.
lovelysoul at April 22, 2011 1:09 PM
Couldn't help but throw my 2 cents into the hat. I agree with everyone. I agree with Amy. I mostly agree with the poster who talked about chemistry, in that, it just wasn't there. Had strong chemistry been a factor, these 2 would be dating, there wouldn't have been a childish line of friends ribbing him, and there would be no letter to Amy.
Sometimes life is tough. If this girl truly did make a mistake by brushing him off and saying "i might have something to do tonight", then regretted her statement, then so be it. She won't be making that mistake again, will she.
But she hangs with a childish crowd. Even though he received her brush-off with manly confidence, she is still, 2 yrs later, mulling it over, then somehow complicit in having her crowd of friends ridicule him as they pass by his table. Me, at that point, i would have risen from my seat, approached the young lady, and asked "what gives"?
Really, though, Beth does seem like a bitch at worst, a mental midget at best... she's attractive, yet has not been asked out in a long itme???... sounds like she was yanking his chain. Then she yanked his chain 2 years later by having her crowd of buddies file past while saying idiotic things. I think she is bothered all to hell that she didn't get to turn him down twice.
This is one of life's "duh" moments. Laugh about the drunk friends and the whole silly scenario, and move on. There are more important and more interesting things to do in life than to occupy brain space with the likes of someone who only wants to yank your chain.
Bluejean Baby at April 22, 2011 7:32 PM
Bluejean, ditto on everything you said. Especially, I agree it probably annoyed her that he saw through her bull after the first phone call instead of continuing to pursue her as she'd hoped, hence why she felt the need to manufacture such an absurdly exaggerated parade-of-humiliation - in order to make it seem as though it had been a much bigger deal to him than it really had been. Actually the main reason LW still sounds annoyed by it is probably not because he still pined after her, but because he probably finds it incredulous that some people can really be such jerks.
Lobster at April 24, 2011 4:27 PM
"Yeah HE has issues...Only reason 4 is at all exculpatory to the girl, though 5 isn't too bad either. Number 2 makes her just as issue laden as the guy."
Beth isn't the one writing into the advice columnist, so her personal issues are pretty much irrelevant. I'm sure Amy's advice would be different if she were the one asking for advice. I think based on everyone's responses though reason #4 for her behavior hits the nail on the head.
I don't get why everyone is hating on Beth anyway. Let's say she did give out her number with no intention of dating the guy. So what? I'm sure all the men posting here have had the experience of asking for someone's number but not calling. Maybe you just never got around to it. Or had better prospects. Or changed your mind when you sobered up the next day. Or maybe you never intended to call in the first place and were just racking up numbers for an ego boost. So friggin what? Giving out or asking for a number is in no way shape or form a binding promise to go on a date.
Shannon at April 25, 2011 11:36 PM
Amy, the woman is the one who hinted strongly that she wanted to date - the guy followed up and then she let her end of the deal down. Walk away... Too many crazies out there.
I thought this was wise also...
"Pursue a woman one whit more then they desire and they are a stalker or a sexual harasser. One whit less, it seems, and you are snivelly. Nice."
Good insight.
DR at April 26, 2011 6:54 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2074885">comment from DRAgain, two requests for a date is not abuse.
Amy Alkon at April 26, 2011 6:56 AM
You are working really hard to defend your position Amy. I doubt he spent two years with his dick in his hand. More likely he just moved on and dated other women. I personally would have continued the pursuit; although I would have a difficult time taking her seriously unless she brought something really special to the bedroom.
nuzltr2 at April 26, 2011 7:10 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2074925">comment from nuzltr2You are working really hard to defend your position Amy. I doubt he spent two years with his dick in his hand.
People spend a lot of time thinking about opportunities that didn't work out. I think similarly about procrastination. I talk myself out of it when I think that I will spend X amount of time thinking about doing something and feeling bad about it. It becomes obviously irrational to step over something on the carpet when you realize you will spend X minutes thinking about picking it up instead of just doing it and getting on with your life.
I had to read a whole bunch of books in not a whole lot of weeks for LA Times Festival of Books. They sent them kind of late (I understand -- it's a huge job they have to do). I didn't say, "Well, I guess I won't have them all read." I cancelled every evening engagement I had, save for seeing Nancy Rommelmann when she was in town, and started reading and taking notes. I'm not going to moderate a panel and not be prepared with integrity (even though many moderators never read the books). You need to do what it takes in life, and sometimes that takes laying yourself on the line to not miss an opportunity. Again, the cost is negligible if you do what I suggest: the point of the column -- don't tie your self-worth to whether somebody else responds to you. See dating as a numbers game. Ask. Nebulous respons? Ask again. No response or no positive response? Move on.
Amy Alkon at April 26, 2011 7:28 AM
Amy, I've got to go with the crowd here. In my dating days, I had run-ins with several Beths, and I can now spot her type from a mile away. She's the sort that gets her kicks from leading men on and then giving them the cold shoulder. It's the stupid sort of game that borderlines and narcissists play. Let's recap:
* She came on pretty strong to him at first. She gave him her phone number. Lots of women these days are pretty hesitant to give out phone numbers. Clearly she isn't the shy type.
* When he called and asked for a date, she turned him down cold. It wasn't a stumbling answer, and as we've already seen, she isn't the shy type. It was an icicles-coming-out-of-the-phone response. It was a "I'd rather be covered in honey and drawn and quartered over a fire ant hill than go out with you" response. There was no doubt about it.
* Two years later, she brings it up to her friends. That had to be what happened... even if she had mentioned it to her friends at the time he asked her out, are they going to remember two years later? No, she brought it back up. I'm not sure what happened after that; lacking any further info I'll assume the girlfriends were just trying to be helpful wing-women. But they aren't the point of the story anyway. The point is, Beth had a chance to go talk to the LW in person. But instead, she stirred the pot from a distance, like the Wicked Witch of the West sending her flying monkeys out to investigate the intruder.
The LW is puzzled because he can't figure out what's going on here. Cluster B's have a way of distorting reality in their vicinity that can make normal people question their sanity. Perhaps this is the LW's first encounter with a serious Cluster B. LW, the short answer is: you dodged having a relationship with Miss Psycho. Good work. In the future, keep your distance from her and move on. There are far better women out there.
And I wanted to comment on something Sabrina brought up: "I have no patience for those girls who say 'No' but really mean 'Yes' and then all offended when the guy takes her 'no' as a 'no' and then bitch about still being single." Yes Sabrina, and here's the thing: Me and guys younger than me were all raised with "no means no" drilled into our heads on a daily basis. We simply can't cope with "no means no except when it doesn't". We have no algorithm to process that. If a gal turns us down, the thought is always in the back of our minds that if we pursue it any further, we're going to get hit with a restraining order. Hard-to-get is simply too dangerous a game to play these days. So if we call and ask you for a date, you've got to give us some expression of interest if you want us to continue pursuing you. Sorry, but that's how it is in today's world; it wasn't our choice, but we all have to live with it. The line between "manly" and "stalker" is very thin now.
And to Nick: Glad you dropped by, and please stick around. Amy doesn't miss very often, but everybody's human.
Cousin Dave at April 26, 2011 8:28 AM
Thanks, Dave.
I like the point you make in your final paragraph. It's unfair to expect guys -- or anyone for that matter -- to interpret "no" in any way contrary to how it's stated. I'd even go so far as to say it's downright disrespectful to take the liberty of a contradictory interpretation. Beth is, after all, an adult who is capable of speaking for herself.
It's ironic to me that the LW is expected in this case to see past the "no" into a hidden dynamic within Beth, in a way that recognizes the potential social awkwardness that she may be experiencing. In other words, the LW must empathically determine what she really meant despite her inability to say it herself. Yet, the reverse is not expected: Beth is not expected to imagine how her response may impact the LW and then make attempt to edit or correct that impact.
The ironic part is that this type of empathic communication is "traditionally" attributed to the particular talent of women. How funny.
Nick at April 26, 2011 1:57 PM
Well, while I still insist that I wouldn't ask Beth out again if she acted that way with me, I've used Amy's 'ask twice' scenario to good effect lately on less romantic entanglements.
Full thumbs up to Nick and Cousin Dave. Today, men have WAY too much to lose. Perhaps Amy thinks it's unmanly to not risk something for what might be a worthwhile relationship. Want to know what else is unmanly? Unemployment. Being Bubba's bitch. Having the entire work force of your company thinking you're a sexual predator.
Sorry ladies. You wanted 'no' to mean "HELL NO". You got it! Now you better bring a little something to the table. Luckily, it seems that the majority of you do. That means more men for you and less for Beth. And a good thing too.
flydye at April 26, 2011 4:00 PM
Full points on Amy's advice over putting off things. It's been my sorry experience that I obsessed more about a job or chore then it took the time to actually fix things.
A woman is not a puddle of wine (maybe whine on occasion...)
Now, I've on occasion gone to a restaurant and wanted, say, a steak sandwich and been told that they were fresh out. I really didn't spend the next 6 months obsessing about my missed steak sandwich. I know there are other steaks out there.
No, a woman isn't a piece of meat either. (No, I'm not going there.)
I think the key disagreement is that Amy is giving Beth the benefit of the doubt. The rest of us men (and most women) aren't. Rude is rude, but as Amy says, she could be having an off day. If she had been as forward after the request as she had been before, there might have been a second request. Nothing adds numbers to a woman's '10' score like being madly interested in a guy. (What was that country song where a '10' walks into a bar and as the woman gives the man more and more attitude, her numbers just whittle down to negatives? Ah well)
She didn't. He went on to other steak sandwiches.
One caveat: He certainly has a pretty sharp recollection of what she said for a minor incident two years ago. Still hold he did the right thing
flydye at April 26, 2011 4:21 PM
"The ironic part is that this type of empathic communication is "traditionally" attributed to the particular talent of women. How funny"
Nice Job Nick!
Bravo for doing the 'heavy lifting' Cousin Dave!
nuzltr2 at April 27, 2011 8:19 AM
I think the major point everybody seems to be missing is that the advice Amy puts in her column isnt for the LW alone but for people in general.
Shes quite clearly stated she exchanges several emails with the LWs before writting the column - so the advice she gave him on a personal level may or may not have been completlely different.
Yes her advice looks off if taken in the context that it was menat only for the LW, but if you take a wider view a policy of only asking once and once only is a bit limiting - calling back three days later and trying again isnt that big a dea if you've already gotten an odd, not quite expicitly "no", response.
Chances are, she liked you and then felt insulted that you never called again despite the strong signals she gave you: stony silence, followed two years later by a gauntlet of her drunk friends.
As you can see Amy didnt exactly go easy on the lady and her dating strategy either
lujlp at April 27, 2011 11:05 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/04/miffed-connecti.html#comment-2080220">comment from lujlpI think the major point everybody seems to be missing is that the advice Amy puts in her column isnt for the LW alone but for people in general.
Thanks for pointing that out, luj.
Amy Alkon at April 27, 2011 11:09 AM
"...the advice isn't for the LW alone but for people in general..."
So in that very good spirit, let's gernalize. Amy has already covered half the target set by advising men to try twice and save themselves the trial of second-guessing. Good advice. And it makes sense to address men because the letter was written by one.
Now let's broaden the advice to cover the rest of the populace. Ladies, if you're truly seeking a nice guy, be cautious about using games and tests. The only men they could conceivably weed out are the very nice guys you're after, leaving you with an artificially high percentage of persistent jerks. OK. We've achieved advice for the masses that reflects the fact that dating a two-way street.
If in future we observe women being nice to guys who try twice then we'll have saved alot of headaches for everyone.
TL at April 27, 2011 12:20 PM
I wonder how long he waited before asking her out... could she have started seeing someone else in the meantime? I'd certainly feel awkward if a guy I liked asked me out after I'd already started seeing someone else. Especially if the other relationship was new, and I wasn't sure where it was going. I'd pause.
NicoleK at May 2, 2011 7:39 AM
She may have been in the "off" part of one of those on/off relationships when she initially encouraged his advances. Knowing this type, after what is usually an unpleasant and usually embarrassing entry into the "off" stage of her usual relationship, she will have a bruised ego and seek the self esteem boost and revenge of finding a new date quickly, hence the strong signals at first. Alas her heart lies with the turbulent romance she had left behind (or had left her) so at some point between the come ons and the actual phone call negotiations took place and she reunited with her lover, making her unavailable and uninterested when the LW called. And it sounds like she had reentered into another "off" cycle during their second encounter. Either way, it is in the LW's best interest to steer clear if he doesn't like drama.
MaryB at May 2, 2011 12:41 PM
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