Extreme Meekover
Women always insist they're looking for a "nice guy," but they waste no time running past one to get to a jerk/bad boy. It really seems they're drawn to guys who treat them badly. My most egotistical friends score with women like crazy, and I'm a nice guy who's alone. If my experience is any indication, what women really want are domineering users who have sex with them and toss them aside.
--Nice And Tired Of It
Dateless guys like to blame their situation on how "nice" they are -- as if nothing zaps a guy's mojo like being the kind of fellow who'd bandage a bird's wing or drive an old lady to the store. Night after night, they rock themselves to sleep, whimpering, "Am I just too wonderful to be anyone's boyfriend?" when the question they probably should be asking is "Why doesn't the approval-starved, needy suckup get the girls?"
Self-proclaimed nice guys are often not nice at all but overly nice -- snakes in worm's clothing driven by crushing wimpiness, fear and desperation. Instead of taking the straightforward approach to hitting on a woman, the so-called nice guy offers to do a bunch of chores for her -- not out of the goodness of his wimpy little heart but to bribe her into wanting him. This guy not only finishes last, he gets left holding the broom.
"Nice" versus "jerk"/"bad boy" is actually an oversimplification. NYU personality psychologist Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman has been digging into the nuances, which he laid out in his talk at an evolutionary psychology conference I attended in April at SUNY-Binghamton.
Kaufman described the classic jerk as "narcissistic, selfish, thrill-seeking and chauvinistic." He focused on the narcissistic angle, noting that narcissists tend to be a bust in long-term relationships (they're all about being admired instead of being a partner), but they're "masters at first impressions." He cited research that suggests a whole lot of us find narcissists highly likeable at first. We're drawn to them thanks to four things: They tend to dress with personal style (flashy or expensive clothing), they have self-assured body language, they come off warm and charming, and they pepper their conversation with witty remarks. But, in the research, those who initially found the narcissists charismatic, well-adjusted, and fun saw their true colors upon further interaction (recognizing them for the self-obsessed, groupie-seeking, manipulative creeps they actually are).
While many women are drawn to bad boys, especially in their early 20s, there are three basic types who will put up with one: thrill-seekers, fling-seekers, and sad-sack gaping wounds. Regarding your contention that women want "domineering" men, Kaufman laid out research that shows they actually want men who are "assertive" as opposed to "dominant." What's the difference? Well, a guy who says to his date, "We've got to leave right now" as opposed to tying her up and throwing her in the trunk.
Kaufman summed up his talk by describing the ideal man as strong without being aggressive and demanding, and sensitive without being meek, wimpy, or submissive. He described this man as "the Prestigious Man," and gave George Clooney as an example. This sort of man is confident, achievement-oriented and extroverted while also being caring, generous and helpful. Kaufman emphasized that kindness and assertiveness aren't mutually exclusive, and having both in one man is especially important to women. He also noted that the Prestigious Man has genuine self-esteem, based on his accomplishments (as opposed to the blustery "Look at me!" self-esteem of the not-so-nice guy).
So, the answer for you and other nice guys is...become George Clooney? No, nor should you start hitting on women with "Hi! I'd like to have sex with you and throw you away like used Kleenex!" But, think about where a guy who might say that is coming from. He's having fun, shaking things up. He isn't living in fear of rejection. And he doesn't take rejection as a statement of his worth, just a sign that it's time to go offend the next girl.
What you need to do is borrow from the bad boy's successful tactics. You won't transform yourself overnight, but you can work on being more self-assured, and until you start to feel it, do your best to act self-assured. To ramp up your Prestigious Man/Clooneyness, Kaufman suggests you do something socially valuable, something to help humanity. As a bonus, if there's one place you're less likely to find narcissistic, self-serving jerks competing with you for the ladies, it's the volunteer world. In time, with practice, you just might convince some cute volunteer girl to come home with you to help you put Bactine on that rash you got from tucking your tail between your legs.
"...borrow from the bad boy's successful tactics."
Absolutely!
I recommend listening to Tom Leykis. He's all over YouTube now. Just Google "Leykis 101".
SM777 at June 7, 2011 5:02 PM
I could not agree more with this column. I have had this conversation with guy friends more times than I can count, and it always comes back to the same thing: "nice" and "needy" are NOT the same thing!
If you want a woman, being a wuss and then whining about how women only like "bad boys" doesn't help. And when women say things like "how come I only ever fall for jerks?" a lot of the time, they mean "why do I only attract jerks?" Because the "nice guys" won't ask them out. By the time they do (if ever), they've already gotten themselves stuck in the friend zone by acting like a brother and a friend rather than a romantic prospect.
"Nice guys" create these situations, LYING to the object of their desire by telling them they're just friends. They say that these women are selfish, manipulative, whatever, but they are simply taking their "nice guy" friends at their word.
The Original Kit at June 7, 2011 5:07 PM
How does this guy think he knows who George Clooney so well? LoL..so ridiculous..is this statement being made based on a character he played in a movie?...come on now...seriously.
There's a lot of cr*p here.
Why do you think you only ever hear women complaining about their attraction to bad boys? It's because this all in one thing you talk about doesn't exist.
This article is messing with the spectrum.
On one end you have this so called wimp, and on the other you have the bad boy.
The all in one that you refer to, is the middle, which doesn't contain the bad boy and the wimp. but the assertive romantic...but women dont complain about assertion..they are complaining about the bad boys they are attracted to, the ones that aren't into monogamy. and these are the women that men whine about.
but you don't have the full spectrum in one...you don't have the badboy, lethal weapon, beatup a cop for insulting his girl, rides them home on bike (which these girls complain about being attracted to) then makes her a candlelit dinner, runs her a bath, and has hours of foreplay, makes her most important thing in the world, would never do anything to hurt her, or anything to complicate their future togethor...doesn't exist...he cant be a badboy without risking their future togethor.
sure you can have an assertive romantic, but that's not the bad boy these women are attracted to.
JET at June 7, 2011 6:09 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2230328">comment from JETJET, best to actually read the column before commenting.
Amy Alkon at June 7, 2011 6:11 PM
I think one thing that gets confusing is that at least some of us females (I know I've done it) will describe a man as "nice" even if he isn't just so we have something nice to say. For example "You're nice, but you're not my type." sometimes doesn't mean that the guy is nice. It could mean that he's physically unattractive to the woman or that he's passive aggressive but she doesn't want to call him on it or that there's something else she just doesn't like. It's like the "I'll call you" line. It doesn't necessarily mean much.
KrisL at June 7, 2011 6:47 PM
There are a lot of articles about "Nice Guys" over at Heartless Bitches International.com. Excellent reading for those who need to understand that "the truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.
"These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator - one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame "all women" for their misfortunes."
Please, LW, go to HBI and check out all the articles in the "Nice Guys" files. Then (and I've said this before, many times, but it bears repeating) grow a back bone where your wish bone is!
Flynne at June 7, 2011 8:03 PM
Women do not want men that treat them badly. They want high-status, attractive, alpha-male types that other women also want. And guys that fit this description may treat women badly--intentionally or unintentionally--simply because they can. Why bother putting a lot of effort into one girl when you know she'll sleep with you regardless? Or that ten other girls will if she won't.
And I have yet to hear a woman say "So-and-so is ridiculously hot and successful and the life of the party and amazing in bed. Too bad he's just way too nice." More often "nice" is used as a polite descriptor when you don't have anything better to say about someone, as KrisL points out. It's like saying that a girl has a good personality or great bone structure. Not that there's anything wrong with being nice or having a good personality, but if that's the first and best thing you can say about someone then it's probably a sign that they're lacking in other departments.
Shannon at June 7, 2011 8:41 PM
"Why doesn't the approval-starved, needy suckup get the girls?"
Several years of advice to "nice" guys condensed into one pithy statement. Brava. I think this rephrasing of the "Why don't women want nice guys?" question should be deployed often to guys who think women who appreciate them will have an unexplainable urge to come crashing into their living rooms.
The Original Kit makes a great point about women only having more aggressive guys to choose from because the "nice" ones won't make a move. Helpful hint, Nice Guys: that woman across the room who's making direct eye contact and then glancing away wants you to come to her. She's not going to come over and throw herself into your lap if you wait long enough; she's going to get exasperated and turn her attentions to someone else.
NumberSix at June 7, 2011 8:59 PM
Also, this behavior isn't unique to women. It's just as common to see guys jumping through hoops for high-maintenance drama queens who treat them badly or indifferently while bypassing "nicer" girls who would worship the ground they walked on, but unfortunately aren't as hot or fun or desirable.
Basically, it's human nature to want what you can't have, to want what other people want, and to want to be that special person who tames the alpha male or converts the bad boy or wins over the dream girl.
Shannon at June 7, 2011 9:04 PM
Start here:
(1) Get a job that pays more money. Focus on your career, do well, and you just upped your attractiveness by a bunch.
(2) Get a better haircut and sharper clothes. Shower. Shave. Every day.
(3) Hit the gym for some weightlifting, to increase those natural testosterone levels.
(4) Any woman that describes you as her "friend" should be thereafter ignored, unless you are trying to date some gal in the "friend's" social circle. You are looking for sex, not friends. Girls who "friend" you rejected you for sex, and now keep you around only as secondary attention sources, when the men they desire are unavailable. You may meet, over your life, one or two women who may actually be a friend. The rest. Pffft. Don't waste your time.
(5) Be polite, friendly, but not overly so. Ask questions about gals' lives, but offer few details about your own beyond the basics. (Despite what they say, they actually don't care all that much about what you have to say. No, seriously, they have girlfriends to chat with. Leave it to the pros.)
(6) Don't ever, ever, ever act like the guys inmodern romantic comedies. Millions of women really want Stanley screaming "Stella!", not John Cusack playing "In Your Eyes."
That should get you started. Also, I second the Tom Lyekis suggestion. The guy is a blowhard, but he does help deprogram the poor, delued young men and women of today.
Spartee at June 7, 2011 9:40 PM
while bypassing "nicer" girls who would worship the ground they walked on, but unfortunately aren't as hot or fun or desirable.
Those women (some of whom have letters on this very site) who resent other women who actually get dates by being all, like, approachable. I'm reminded of a woman who once wrote to Amy despairing of her lack of a dating life due to men who only want high-maintenance women. Never mind that the LW only ever left the house in baggy gym shorts and a cap thrown over uncombed hair (or something to that effect), men couldn't see through that to her innate goodness..from across the dog park. Or women who won't look at or flirt with a guys at a party and then complain that the men wouldn't ask them out because men don't like nice, normal women.. I just read Amy's most recent letter, which tells the LW that both men and women need to make an effort, it's just that the efforts should tend to differ by gender. Men approach, yes, but women should make themselves approachable by flirting and such.
NumberSix at June 7, 2011 9:58 PM
Spartee,
Right on with everything you say. And I agree with what Amy says too.
I had never heard of this Leykis fellow before, but having listened to a bit of him...it makes that one situation a few letters back with that single mom worse, not better.
flydye at June 7, 2011 11:07 PM
I think the problem for guys thirty and younger is alot of them grew up at a time where the background mesage of society was 'male aggression is the sorce of all evil, sex is wrong if a man suggests it, and anything less than an enthusiastic yes along with a signed contract=rape'
Its gotten better in some places, worse in others. I cant help but wonder if everyones preoccupation with sex is because of the way society has demonized the subject.
lujlp at June 7, 2011 11:55 PM
'Nice And Tired Of It', welcome to the world. It isn't quite as you were told. Adapt and enjoy the world as it is (flaws and hypocrisies and injustices and all), or don't adapt and become bitter and lonely. You don't have to become a total asshole or 'player', but just being 'a more confident and assertive and not-a-walkover version of yourself' should be enough for many women.
"borrow from the bad boy's successful tactics"
Yes, do this. But you don't need to sacrifice your principles. I prefer to think in terms of 'decent' as specifically opposed to 'nice' - when women reject 'nice' the 'nice guy' believes (often falsely, though occasionally correctly with some women) that it is his 'decency' she is rejecting - i.e. you can be 'decent' without being the 'icky' butt-licking 'nice' that women don't like. Don't be ashamed to retain your decency and fairness as an internal quality - for yourself - but that also then includes guarding and retaining enough self-respect to also not be a walkover (and e.g. not trying to use 'nice' as a 'bargaining chip'), and to not submit to 'shit tests' and nonsense like that. And whatever you do, avoid advice from your female friends on this topic, you will never get a useful answer. Unfortunately the process never ends, not even when you're married, if you're inclined to be 'nice'. But it gets easier with practice.
Not all 'bad boys' are actually bad (i.e. 'not decent') people, but many are, but you should also keep in mind that while being an ass might be a good way to get tail, it mostly only works reliably on a minority of women, and it is often those women who tend to have no self-respect ... e.g. they are often trying to emulate some destructive 'abuse victim' relationship if they've e.g. had an abusive father. If a woman *looks* for a man who treats her badly, it means she has no self-respect, and you don't want a woman who doesn't have self-respect, that's trouble ... she won't respect you unless you treat her badly, etc.
Lobster at June 8, 2011 1:41 AM
"This sort of man is confident, achievement-oriented and extroverted while also being caring, generous and helpful. Kaufman emphasized that kindness and assertiveness aren't mutually exclusive, and having both in one man is especially important to women. He also noted that the Prestigious Man has genuine self-esteem, based on his accomplishments (as opposed to the blustery "Look at me!" self-esteem of the not-so-nice guy)."
THIS!
Jet is wrong. The Prestigious Man does is exist, and it's so true that he has genuine self-esteem. Narcissists and jerks are usually, deep down, very insecure. They need attention to constantly prove that they're good enough - they need other people to tell them that they're good enough.
Being with someone with genuine self-esteem is totally different. That confidence is real, not fake, and I think once a woman has experience with both kinds of men, she can usually tell the difference.
My husband is a very strong, self-assured manly man (a black belt) who is also nice and romantic. It's not mutually exclusive. But women do want strong, assertive men, and unfortunately, that's where the mixup often occurs - aggressive isn't quite the same as assertive, but women often can't tell the subtle difference.
The narcissist will fearlessly approach a woman. He knows it's just a numbers game - she'll either say "yes" or "no" - and since he's used to feeding off others for his self-worth, he's practiced and relaxed at chatting people up. If he doesn't get what he wants from them, he'll easily move onto the next.
This seems assertive, but it's actually more predatory and agressive. That's why a lot of women get entangled with these jerky guys, but it's not what they really WANT.
lovelysoul at June 8, 2011 4:36 AM
George Clooney on one extreme versus...Alan Alda on the other? Looking back, I wonder if "Why do those bad boy users get all the girls while nice guys like me don't?" really means "How can I possibly compete?" Well, Tiger, as everybody else has said so far, they ain't gonna come running to you, so you better get busy. And in addition to Miss Alkon's advice, read carefully what Shannon and Spartee said above.
Old RPM Daddy at June 8, 2011 5:24 AM
There's two problems at work here.
1. Women who, "insist they're looking for a "nice guy," but they waste no time running past one to get to a jerk/bad boy" attract the wrong guys and frankly they need to look into that.
2. Guys who that think "I'm a nice guy who's alone" seem to be really lacking in confidence and they need to look into that.
Start off with the things that Spartee lists and you'll be on your way to getting your confidence up.
Danny at June 8, 2011 5:34 AM
"But women do want strong, assertive men, and unfortunately, that's where the mixup often occurs"
LS, I think the 'mixup occurs' mainly because of the common disconnect between what many women say they want, and what they really want (as Danny mentions.. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a woman say that). Naive young men take womens' claims at face value. Only a tiny minority of women are (like you) actually honest and straightforward about it, and I think younger women and girls especially are more likely to be dishonest about it - I don't even think maliciously, I think think most the time they don't even know themselves .. they just have a bunch of ideas and ideals they've been raised with and then on the other hand they have their instincts based on millions of years of genetic programming.
Lobster at June 8, 2011 6:54 AM
"I think younger women and girls especially are more likely to be dishonest about it - I don't even think maliciously, I think think most the time they don't even know themselves .. they just have a bunch of ideas and ideals they've been raised with and then on the other hand they have their instincts based on millions of years of genetic programming."
Put whimsically, that programming says "don't push Murg the Weak out of your life, because you never know when he may have the mastadon steaks you need for your kids, but Rarg the Slayer is the hot one in the clan, so go breed with him." In short, keep Murg around in case you need him, but Rarg gets the sugar. Letterwriter is being Murged. He needs to find the gal who considers him Rarg, but he will first need to develop enough Rarg characteristics that gals will see him that way.
Spartee at June 8, 2011 7:25 AM
Yes. And what makes Rarg hot? His strength and protective abilities. Today, Murg the Weak might actually provide some protection - by building you a mansion with his dot.com funds - but as far as being physically hot and sexy, sheer strength is what still attracts most women.
In short, you have to bring more to the table than just "nice". Both sexes do. How many guys lust after a woman solely because she's nice?
If she's out of shape or has other unattractive qualities, it won't fly, even if she's really nice. Most of the guys I've known who thought women were rejecting them for being "too nice" simply had other qualities (like weakness, ugliness, bad hygiene, or poverty) that were the real reasons.
lovelysoul at June 8, 2011 7:36 AM
And Lobster is right. Many women, particularly younger ones, don't know exactly what they want. But I think very few really want a "bad boy" long-term. What they want is to TAME the bad boy because that is a challenge, and it makes a woman feel special.
It's kind of akin to men going after the unattainable hot chick who won't sleep with them. She becomes the prize...not the slut who will put out for anybody.
Women like a little bit of a chase too.
lovelysoul at June 8, 2011 7:43 AM
Just to be clear, I am not condemning women for their preferences. I am just trying to put it in terms the letterwriter will understand.
Women actually do not care much about how "nice" a guy is generally to the rest of the world. If anything, they prefer him to be fierce towards the world, but "nice" (.e., protective, loyal, occasionally attentive, stable but not weakly so) towards her (and only her, preferably).
"Nice" rates near zero with most women if the guy lacks the other "Rarg the Slayer" qualities. So when a woman says she wants a nice guy, what she is really saying (again being whimsical for effect) is "I want a fierce Mongol warrior who is physically capable and smart of mind, but I also want him to be preditably gentle and providing towards me and my offspring at the same time he is ferocious towards the scary world out there."
The nice guys fail to understand that women want the "nice" to only extend to them, the female mate, and everyone else faces the Mongol's wrath, as he cuts his alpha male swath through the world...and brings the loot back home to his female and her offspring.
In short, want chicks? Convince them you are a modern Mongol, gentle to your mate, but no one else. They will adore you.
Spartee at June 8, 2011 7:49 AM
"In short, want chicks? Convince them you are a modern Mongol, gentle to your mate, but no one else. They will adore you."
That's pretty spot on. Although I think we do want a guy who is nice and gentle to others - just nobody that threatens us.
lovelysoul at June 8, 2011 7:58 AM
Perhaps the "bad boy" problem is reflective of a more pervasive relationship problem, trying to change your boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife.
Aren't we always told that going into a relationship intending to remake the other person guarantees failure?
Taming the bad boys ain't never gonna happen; taming the high-maintenance girls ain't never gonna happen either.
alittlesense at June 8, 2011 9:46 AM
Spartee's posts made me think of the following scenario ...
Murg: Oh, Hi Weena, look at the nice mastodon steaks I'm grilling.
Weena: Mmmmm, smells nice. Mind if I have some for me and my kids?
Murg: Why sure, help yourself.
[Weena helps herself to Murg's mastadon steaks and offers some to her kids as well].
Murg: So, Weena, what are you doing this evening? I've got a nice new saber tooth pelt over at my cave you may be interested in.
Weena: (coyly) Well, I don't have any plans...
[Just then Rarg the Slayer shows up, fresh from a battle with a neighboring tribe].
Rarg: Hi Weena, wanna come over to my cave and see what happens?
Weena: I'm open to suggestions.
[Weena and Rarg go off to his cave for some hot caveman/cavewoman action, leaving Murg looking all forlorn].
Murg: Drat, foiled again!
Thomas Fullery at June 8, 2011 11:43 AM
Given Amy's penchant for EvBio it's surprising that she still hasn't given a serious look to Susan Walsh, Athol Kay, or Roissy himself.
Yes men need to act like real men, but doing so requires taking the blue pill and dismissing much of what feminism has demanded that we think regarding women and relationships.
Jet Tibet at June 8, 2011 1:42 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2233531">comment from Jet TibetYes men need to act like real men, but doing so requires taking the blue pill and dismissing much of what feminism has demanded that we think regarding women and relationships.
My boyfriend's a "real man" without taking Viagra. He's kind and generous and lives with integrity (he's the best person I know) but he's nobody's pushover. He's also an introvert, but when I flirted with him at the Apple computer store eight-plus years ago, he had the balls to ask me out. We talked for three hours at the Farmer's Market (a few steps from the Apple store), then he walked me to my car and grabbed me and kissed me. We've been together ever since.
P.S. The only one he ever lets walk on him is my three-pound dog.
Amy Alkon at June 8, 2011 1:56 PM
In short, chicks prefer Khal Drogo to Greg Focker.
Nice guys do fine. They just have to be more than nice. Nice is not the quality that gets women to go out with you.
MonicaP at June 8, 2011 3:46 PM
Okay, a "Game of Thrones" reference on an advice website? That's got to be a first. Well played.
Jdbar93 at June 8, 2011 5:49 PM
I can only recommend the writer read the first two chapters of "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Robert Glover. The direction he must take will be laid bare for him with an hour's reading.
Zorro at June 8, 2011 6:07 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2234625">comment from ZorroI recommend it all the time, and have had drinks with Glover, whom I respect. Here's a link to the book -- terrific book for the "overly nice guy."
No More Mr. Nice Guy!
Amy Alkon at June 8, 2011 6:25 PM
Amy, you nailed it again.
There's a huge number of us guys who are like puppies- waiting for a woman to pat us on the head if we do a nice trick.
Lets hear it for having a life, being happy with yourself, and being a man instead of a puppy! Rah rah!
andy at June 8, 2011 8:45 PM
but doing so requires taking the blue pill...
My boyfriend's a "real man" without taking Viagra.
Unless that's subtle humour on your part Amy, I think you missed The Matrix reference there in "blue pill".
But that's wrong anyway isn't it Jet? The red pill would be for seeing reality, the blue pill for staying in fantasyland. Or am I mixing them up?
(refuses urge to Google, or worse still break out movie)
Ltw at June 8, 2011 11:14 PM
On topic...this column makes me squirm. I am such a sucker for this sort of behaviour
Instead of taking the straightforward approach to hitting on a woman, the so-called nice guy offers to do a bunch of chores for her -- not out of the goodness of his wimpy little heart but to bribe her into wanting him.
Except I usually do it *after* hitting on them and being rejected or friendzoned. Sometimes I still value the friendship that comes with that. Go figure. It's only rarely, and I will say this - I do not whine about it like the LW. Made bed/lie in it.
I will say I'm no longer a total doormat. If I'm willing to be there for someone when they're hurting, or sick, or whatever, I expect them to reciprocate. And I have dumped a few vampires along the way despite my feelings trying to tell me "just hang in there" when they've failed to do so. I'm pretty tolerant, but I won't put up with being treated like shit.
Anyway, I'm working on it. Asked a girl out the other night after a 5 minute chat over a cigarette outside a jazz concert. Seemed receptive, introduced herself, answered "yes" to "are you single". Haven't heard from her, but, hell, good practice. Next!
It's funny - my risk-taking on this front can be extreme sometimes, yet I have trouble approaching a woman in a bar. I'm better in random encounters.
All in all - good answer Amy. I must read that book.
Ltw at June 8, 2011 11:36 PM
A smarter Murg obviously started the oldest profession...Weena can want what she wants but if she wants steaks, she better fight her darned programing.
flydye at June 9, 2011 12:13 AM
The red pill would be for seeing reality, the blue pill for staying in fantasyland.
Yes. Should have been "red pill" ..
To the broader point: Amy is correct that "What you need to do is borrow from the bad boy's successful tactics".
But the real way to do this is a bit harsher than building self-esteem thru volunteer work - rather it's necessary to view relationships in a manner that is less egalitarian and to view women more cynically. Stop expecting your GF to listen to your problems, and stop thinking that catering to her whims will strengthen the relationship.
Jet Tibet at June 9, 2011 1:28 AM
I remember a line from a t.v. show I used to watch, Criminal Minds.
There is a genius character, a young man, who in conversation with a young woman who happens to be a colleague asks after he says something a little odd:
"Is this why I can't get a date?"
Response: Do you ever ask anyone out?
Him: Well...no.
Her: Well that is why you can't get a date.
Your typical "nice guy" is to afraid of rejection to ask a woman out. He'll be nice and hope to stumble into a relationship with her, or that she'll realize he's wonderful and she'll fall for him without any risk to himself.
But since he doesn't ask her out, he doesn't get to date her. Ergo she'll date people who do ask her out, and cry about them to him.
And so...he doesn't get a date.
Robert at June 9, 2011 2:32 AM
LW could join the Marines. If that's too drastic, and he's not confident of his speaking abilities, Toastmasters or Dale Carnegie are a good way to build self confidence.
He could also do something he is good at in a setting that includes members of the opposite sex. You probably don't have to go to Japan to teach English, but you might meet more than one young lady with an interest in something you know about that way. (I should have patented that idea. It has become a stereotype.)
Habitat for Humanity is worth a try.
I see too much of the (much) younger me in this letter. The advice you are getting is all good.
MarkD at June 9, 2011 5:55 AM
He could also do something he is good at in a setting that includes members of the opposite sex.
It's getting there that's my problem MarkD! Once I get to that point I'm fine!
Oh. Not what you meant. Sorry.
Ltw at June 9, 2011 6:27 AM
"LW could join the Marines."
I am not sure that hanging out in boot camp, mainly with guys, and going througn combat infantry training, again with guys, and then whatever advanced training they put him through (perhaps with gals), is going to lead to many sexy times, unless the Marines have changed quite radically since the Don't Ask rules were ditched.
Spartee at June 9, 2011 7:16 AM
"But the real way to do this is a bit harsher than building self-esteem thru volunteer work - rather it's necessary to view relationships in a manner that is less egalitarian and to view women more cynically. Stop expecting your GF to listen to your problems, and stop thinking that catering to her whims will strengthen the relationship."
Not true. Catering to her whims WILL strengthen your relationship. My husband calls me to see if I need things, and he goes out of his way to make me happy (as I do in return).
This cynicism you talk about is the other extreme that a lot of men take this, and it's an unattractive quality in and of itself.
Look, we all get rejected. Maybe some young guys don't know this, but it's true. No matter how nice, or how tough, we are not going to be everybody's cup of tea.
When I began dating again, after my divorce, I got rejected quite often...but pursued, quite often too. To some men, I'm the hottest thing they've ever seen, and to others, I'm a turnoff.
Unfortunately, many of the guys who turned me on were in the latter category, so I had to look at that with brutal honesty and determine if I was going after some men that were "out of my league."
I decided I was, so I tweaked things a bit, and stopped pining over some of the "pretty boys" I either couldn't get or realistically couldn't keep.
That's just what you have to do. Be realistic...but don't get cynical, because that will just make you a jerk that nobody wants.
In fact, that's what happens to a lot of my female peers. They become bitter towards men after they get dumped or rejected a time or two (or twenty). Not attractive!
lovelysoul at June 9, 2011 7:21 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2237491">comment from SparteeBy the way, a good book for female doormats is Beverly Engels' The Nice Girl Syndrome.
Amy Alkon at June 9, 2011 11:59 AM
Spartee,
Boot camp is temporary, but the achievement is forever. Granted, I was far luckier than I deserved; my taxpayer funded Asian excursion stopped short of where some of my peers were still getting shot at. Look at it like asking for a date, it doesn't always work, but if you never ask, you will never get.
I am more confident now than I was when I was in high school, and self confidence is one of the qualities lacking in some self-described nice guys. That is one (not the easiest perhaps) way to develop it. Other suggestions were made.
Oh, and it might just get you killed, so don't complain to me if it doesn't work for you.
MarkD at June 9, 2011 12:30 PM
lovelysoul,
I'm not sure how aggressive you were in your dating but the (general) style of rejections are quite different.
If you ask a guy on a date and he says 'No thank you' then I agree. It's the same as men (though men generally have to wade through the other men and pass the sniff test of that bitter pack of hyenas that most women call 'friends' to get to that point)
If you are sitting with your friend and twirling your hair and doing the light touches on his arm and laughing at his stupid jokes and making eye contact...and he wanders off with your friend, that is rejection but it's not the same at all.
Not to say they both don't hurt but one is more direct then the other.
flydye at June 9, 2011 11:30 PM
Flydye, with online dating, the rejection usually comes after you meet - in my case, usually after a whole dinner date, as where I live is kind of hard to get to, so guys didn't drive here just to have coffee.
The hardest ones were where he seemed to be into me (which a lot of guys will do in that situation), then write the requisite, "it was nice to meet you, but we're not a match" e-mail the next day....or worse, disappear totally, though, sometmes, that was easier since I could tell myself he was probably hit by a truck. :)
Ultimately, I learned to be a lot choosier about who I even had a first date with - and I made sure they saw lots of recent photos so they would know eaxctly what I looked like - but, even that, did not always protect me from rejection.
You cannot date and be protected from rejection.
lovelysoul at June 10, 2011 4:27 AM
People will like you more for what you are than for what you do.
I think that the parity principal still works. The more "points" that you earn through attractiveness (good genes, good grooming, physical fitness & a healthy weight) social skills and-connections, financial security, intellect/education, compatible moral sensibilities, etc. , the higher quality of mate you can attract. Of course, each person weighs these qualities differently, so they may assign more "points" to attributes.
If you are not happy with the quality of people that you attract, build up your points and go the places that highlight those strong areas. In a bar for instance, physical qualities will be highlighted- great for some people.
Jen at June 10, 2011 8:54 AM
lovelysoul
Quite true and it's been decades since I trolled the dating pool and I've never done the online thing. I never consider the dating thing beyond 'approach a girl in a bar'.
Heck, I fear having to dive into that swamp again. I'm sure my wife will be gratified to hear that.
Jen, exactly.
flydye at June 10, 2011 8:59 AM
If you are classifying yourself as a "nice guy" you are doomed.
Spartee has given us some of the best advice I have seen on this forum in a long time.
mike at June 10, 2011 9:38 AM
A few years ago, a man who met me as a student, but in my age range decided I was his soul mate. He called me and called me, never asking me out, but telling many mutual friends of his attraction.
I thought he was an okay guy but I was not very attracted to him. He kept up his passive aggressive "courtship" with phone calls, cornering me and monopolizing all my conversations at parties and trying to get our mutual friends to talk to me about him. He was such a NICE GUY! Needy to the bone and wanting me to tell him what to do with his life. A conversation with this self professed "nice guy" was a lesson how much a needy guy can drain you of all energy. He tried to tell everyone how I had broken his heart and how mean I was, finally someone in the middle of a gathering told him all I had done was to try and get him to leave me alone and to quit acting like a child.
These guys find one woman and fixate on her until she is practically hiding from them. They will pull the "nice guy" victim card out over and over.
As a strong independent woman I can say I want a man who is strong and independent, who is walking his own path next to me, not trying to get me to tow him along behind me.
BTW Bad boys are no better, self absorbed jerks, say good bye to them too.
If you are a self professed "nice guy" who cannot seem to get the girl, start looking at yourself, is there something you need to improve? Is your life on track in other areas other than catching the girl of your dreams? Are you getting out and exposing yourself to a wide range of people and activities? Are you the kind of person you try to attract?
Whining is one of the most unattractive things you can do, quit whining and get a life. Who knows the girl of your dreams might find you attractive.
Worthit at June 10, 2011 11:58 AM
The main thing that "bad boys" do that works is to not come off too interested at first. The example of Murg the Weak offering Weena mastadon steaks right away hit home with me. Most "nice guys" offer too much up front...like giving you flowers or gifts before you've even dated or offering to do things that are more boyfriend-type things before that relationship has been established.
Although these are all nice things, when they're offered too fast, they don't come off as nice but desperate. We immediately know that the guy is acting out of his own neediness rather than a genuine desire to be nice to us.
To me, a nice act is one where the giver doesn't expect anything in return. But that's really the opposite of what most guys who consider themselves "nice" do with women. They are essentially saying, "Look what I'm doing for you. Now, be my girlfriend!"
lovelysoul at June 10, 2011 12:59 PM
Most "nice guys" offer too much up front
Yes! Like the infamous turtle earrings. Nothing says "I'm desperate; please love me" like making the hard sell.
They are essentially saying, "Look what I'm doing for you. Now, be my girlfriend!"
Exactly. Which is the key difference between nice guys and "nice guys." What the latter are doing is emotional blackmail and manipulation, even if they don't realize it. "Nice guys" are as emotionally damaging as "bad boys," just on a different wavelength--one tends to come off too desperate, the other too nonchalant. In both cases, healthy women will eventually tire of the antics and move on.
NumberSix at June 11, 2011 12:38 AM
Saying someone is "nice" is like saying they have two arms. 99% of people are well-intentioned, nice people. It's what you say when you have nothing else to say.
Anyhow, most bad boys (and bad girls) grow up eventually. And the ones that don't don't get as many girls as they age.
NicoleK at June 11, 2011 1:04 AM
The thing is, if you are really nice... I mean genuinely good hearted, the sort of person who will really do good things for people... as opposed to just passive-aggressive... you can end-up being pretty badass.
Like guys who go to third world, war-torn countries and perform heart surgery. That's pretty badass. Some of my dad's friends do that... it makes them seem hot and badass even though they are old. (Seems to be the type of thing you do in your 20s, or post 60)
It's a very nice thing to do, yet also badass.
NicoleK at June 11, 2011 1:08 AM
Yes. At some level, we women know that if we can sniff out the desperation/neediness, which is a weakness, then other men can too. And this has always been evolutionarily bad for us - to be with a man other men can kill or dominate. Of course, it's not so valid in the current age, but it's still THERE.
I'll admit I like the fact that my husband is physically intimidating. He's the nicest guy too -will give the shirt off his back to help anyone - and maybe he can actually afford to be a little nicer because he's so big and strong. No one is going to look at him and mistake his kindness for weakness.
A puny guy, though, should probably not go around being overly nice. Although it may lead to lots of friendships, it just adds to the perception of weakness. Most women won't view that guy as a potential boyfriend.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 5:12 AM
I'll add that the reason a woman won't seriously consider the puny, nice guy as a boyfriend is because not only can he not protect her physically, she'll worry that he'll give away the mastadon steaks and they'll starve.
A guy needs to either be tough physically or mentally. The world is full of little hotshot, badass guys that excel in some area mentally and get lots of women. They don't go around seeming desperate and needy, but sharp and confident.
So, you can be a gentle giant or a little badass. And it's ideal if you can be both. Go to the gym, buff up, then do your charity work.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 5:34 AM
NicoleK Says:
“Like guys who go to third world, war-torn countries and perform heart surgery.”
Oh… you mean doctors? Or are you suggesting that average men with no medical training travel over seas to crack peoples chests open?
Something tells me that it isn’t going to war-torn countries that helps these men have high value on the dating market. Doctors who never even leave the first world are known for being desirable so I find this statement to be rather silly.
There are MANY nice and decent men who give to charity, donate their time to educate or mentor troubled youth and none of those activities look particularly great on the dating resume to the vast majority of women.
In particular, most women would prefer to date a financially successful doctor with a jerky personality than a middle class do-gooder who spends a huge amount of their time in soup kitchens or running canned food drives.
I’m not particularly enthused with the way people here are coming down so hard on “nice” people because I think that most people here are fabricating a dislikable archetype that doesn’t bare any resemblance to the general population.
This notion of the passive aggressive “nice guy” who only does nice things in order to ingratiate the recipient and guilt them into a relationship is a corner case, an anomaly, an oddity that does not warrant such significant attention in a discussion like this.
Most good and decent men are not like this. Yet I think we can all conjure up in our minds good and decent men that we know who aren’t doing so well in the relationship department.
There is a reason book series such as twilight are so popular amongst teen and young adult women and it isn’t because the romantic interests in the book are a bunch of do-gooders. Show me a romance novel with a decent do-gooder as the main romantic interest and I will show you a romance novel with really crappy sales.
This fantasy of the rough around the edges guy with a turbulent past who just needs the special caring touch of the right woman to turn him around is practically universal (i.e. not an anomaly like the passive aggressive “nice guy” persona being talked about here). This is the problem that some decent and good hearted men run into when dealing with women on the dating scene.
For whatever reason there seems to be an attraction to the decent but tragically flawed man who presents a challenge to women to “fix” him just for her. The guy who is already stable and who doesn’t need those “fixes” just doesn’t appear to hold the same appeal to younger women.
As women get older their perspective on this tends to change as they seek out partners with greater stability and who have a socially redeeming value set already established. This doesn’t help decent young men much unless they are all expected to date much older women who have grown out of the “bad boy” phase.
I just hope for the day that nice men and nice women can get together more easily and make each other happy while everyone else can play stupid games and keep the drama to themselves.
Reality at June 11, 2011 8:25 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2244379">comment from RealityThis notion of the passive aggressive “nice guy” who only does nice things in order to ingratiate the recipient and guilt them into a relationship is a corner case, an anomaly, an oddity that does not warrant such significant attention in a discussion like this.
Actually, it's not. Dr. Robert Glover has built a successful business "ministering" to these guys, and his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy!, is right on.
I've also gotten a pile of letters in response to this column, from guys who've learned that the bribery angle doesn't work, and I get piles and piles of mail from them all the time, which is why I wrote this column.
My boyfriend is a truly nice guy, but he's nice when it's called for, not into bribing anybody for their attention or affection, and no pushover when somebody tries to bully him. In fact, an editor at The New York Times called my sweet boyfriend "apocalyptic and threatening." I love that. I wanted to put it on a business card for him. Gregg is Elmore Leonard's researcher of 30 years, and they were trying to change Elmore's prose to fit New York Times style. He's not a journalist and you don't do that to Elmore and Elmore's voice when you've asked him to write a novelette for the paper.
Amy Alkon at June 11, 2011 8:35 AM
Amy Says:
"Actually, it's not. Dr. Robert Glover has built a successful business "ministering" to these guys, and his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy!, is right on."
There are many professionals who have built successful businesses taking care of heroine addicts.
That doesn't make heroine addiction representative of the general population.
The fact that out of 6+ billion people on the earth that it is possible to build successful businesses handing the problems of a very small segment of the population shouldn’t be all that surprising.
Even if an issue only affects .01% of the population (1 out of 10000 people) that leaves hundreds of thousands of potential customers. More than enough to build a successful business off of.
“I've also gotten a pile of letters in response to this column, from guys who've learned that the bribery angle doesn't work, and I get piles and piles of mail from them all the time, which is why I wrote this column.”
That is great, but that “ton” of letters comes from a self selected group of individuals for whom this information resonates. That is the very definition of selection bias.
Keep in mind, I am not criticizing how you have addressed this particular letter. There is a fundamental difference between you addressing a specific individual or class of individuals with the same problem and the ongoing discussion in the comments section.
You compartmentalize the issue to the appropriate group whereas the direction of the conversation here appears to generalize far too much.
There are a myriad of issues decent and good people run into on the dating scene. While I agree that sometimes these issues can be internal, I think that more often than not those issues are external in nature.
A nice/decent person who ends up dealing with a jackass didn’t necessarily do anything wrong. Sometimes the jackass is accountable and it is important to recognize this.
Reality at June 11, 2011 8:52 AM
Reality, I don't know why you think the passive-agressive "nice" guy is an anomaly. He's not. I think most women here can confirm they've encountered this guy many times in their lives.
Not long ago, I had to talk a friend of mine (a doctor) from showing up on a first date with a rose and a book she'd mentioned she liked. He's a genuinely nice guy - and obviously successful - but he repeatedly turned women off by coming on too strong too soon. Gifting and bribing, as Amy calls it.
This has nothing to do with a guy's social status or whether he is actually a nice person. It's just a mistake A LOT of men make when courting women. And it may be a mistake that LW is making too, which is why we're discussing it.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 9:17 AM
Lovelysoul Says:
"Reality, I don't know why you think the passive-aggressive "nice" guy is an anomaly. He's not. I think most women here can confirm they've encountered this guy many times in their lives."
The passive-aggressive "nice guy" is an anomaly to the same extent that alcoholics are an anomaly.
I know many men and of that group cannot honestly say that the passive-aggressive “nice guy” is a representative example of the men I know. Similarly, I know many people who drink and of that group cannot honestly say that the term alcoholic is representative of them.
That isn’t to say I don’t believe that alcoholics exist just the same as I am not claiming that passive-aggressive “nice guys” don’t exist.
I simply think it is silly to treat every person who drinks as if they have a problem with alcoholism, just like I think it is silly to paint with broad brush strokes every self described decent or nice guy as this passive aggressive fellow who seeks to guilt women into relationships.
My opinion which is based upon my own experience with people is that the problems nice men contend with on the dating scene are not primarily a product of this sort of behavior.
Sometimes it is, but I will just remind you that not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic either.
The fact that I have met or interacted with an alcoholic in my lifetime doesn’t suddenly make everyone who drinks an alcoholic either.
All I mean my anomaly is that this type of archetype is outside of the norm. Or are you saying that most men you know fall into this category? If so then I am rather surprised.
"Not long ago, I had to talk a friend of mine (a doctor) from showing up on a first date with a rose and a book she'd mentioned she liked. He's a genuinely nice guy - and obviously successful - but he repeatedly turned women off by coming on too strong too soon."
What convinces you that this is the main reason the women were turned off?
I take it that because of your advice he is now in a successful relationship with this woman or that he turned her away due to lack of interest?
Did this particular date lead to other dates with this woman?
If it ended in rejection, clearly the flower and a book were not the causative agent. My guess is that potential romance didn’t work out either, am I correct?
My opinion on this subject actually revolves a great deal around a comment Amy just made about her boyfriend:
“In fact, an editor at The New York Times called my sweet boyfriend "apocalyptic and threatening." I love that.”
What women tend to find attractive isn’t an all around decent guy. What they tend to find attractive is the rough and tumble guy who has a sweet spot just for them, but who everyone else is terrified of. Someone who will go out and order people around when it is necessary, but never in their widest dreams think of being anything but a tender and caring person around their partner.
This is why the good guy issue is sort of a farce. What women generally want is the guy who generally gets when he wants from everyone else, doesn’t take shit from anyone, but is a teddy bear for her and her alone.
I mean, in any other context describing ones significant other as “apocalyptic and threatening” would be cause for significant alarm. Yet since he was being that way with someone else to make sure he got his way in a business situation, it is endearing and charming.
The decent and good guy who doesn’t have it in his heart to scare the crap out of someone because he just sees it as being in violation of his ethics is not the same as the much rarer passive-aggressive guy who guilts relationships out of women. Yet he is bound to have problems on the dating scene as well.
That type of decent fellow is more difficult to criticize and hence gets ignored in conversations like this.
As you said previously, a guy can only really afford to be universally kind and high on the attractiveness scale if he is physically intimidating. This isn’t exactly a good scenario for a smaller guy who is kind and ethical now is it?
Reality at June 11, 2011 9:44 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2244945">comment from Reality"Not long ago, I had to talk a friend of mine (a doctor) from showing up on a first date with a rose and a book she'd mentioned she liked. He's a genuinely nice guy - and obviously successful - but he repeatedly turned women off by coming on too strong too soon."
This is icky overkill. A guy who does this tells you he's socially retarded, doesn't think his presence alone is enough, and more. If a guy who knows you already brings you a flower, it's sweet. A guy who doesn't know you doing this tells you he has to bribe you into liking him.
Oh, and by the way, Gregg brought me the iPod he bought the day we met on the night we were supposed to have our second date or our first official one. (We ended up not leaving my house...heh heh...) The thing is, I'd spent three hours with him that day we met having drinks and we'd talked on the phone several times, at length. (He was in Tishomingo, MIssissippi for the week after we met.) It was clear by then that we really, really liked each other. I knew I'd found an incredible guy and I think that was clear. And also, he'd bought a new iPod because he'd lost his on a plane, and somebody found it, so he had an extra one and it became "our iPod." He gave it to me because he's romantic and generous and was inspired to do something a little crazy -- not because he's pathetic and socially retarded.
Amy Alkon at June 11, 2011 10:54 AM
I think this is where the situation becomes legitimately confusing for men.
Let’s take these two different scenarios as test cases
1 - A guy meets a woman and asks her out on a date. He finds out through their conversations (which took place either in person, on the internet, or over the phone) that she really likes a particular book. He decides that on their first official date he will purchase the book for her as a gift (not necessarily an expensive item) and get a rose for her (again, not necessarily expensive). This is deemed to be a huge turn off and described as “icky overkill” and “pathetic”.
2 - A guy meets a woman and has a three hour conversation with her. They set up a first official date for a week later. Over that week they chat over the phone a bit. He decides to purchase an iPod for her to give to her on that date (an expensive gift at the time, certainly pricier than most books and most flowers). This is deemed to be a huge turn on and described as “romantic and generous”.
I submit that based upon these test cases that the line between being deemed desperate and pathetic versus being deemed romantic and generous is paper thin and subjectively decided by the woman receiving the presents.
If a woman is really into a guy, almost any present will be viewed in a positive light. If a woman is kind of luke warm about a guy, any present will be viewed in a negative light.
It seems to have much less to do with the behavior of the guy and much more to do with how the woman originally perceives his value as a partner.
I can tell scores of stories where women reminisce fondly about the romantic thing that their guy did to really catch their attention. I can also tell scores of stories where women talk about “creepy” guys who came on too strong.
Many times, the only difference between these kinds of stories is whether or not she was into him to begin with.
So sure, there is a small segment of the male population who fit’s the passive aggressive “nice guy” archetype being talked about here. However there seems to be a much larger population of decent and good men who for other reasons are not very attractive to women and get lumped in as members of that much smaller group.
Let’s face it, if Brad Pitt showed up on a first date with a book and a flower no one on earth would describe him as icky, desperate, or pathetic. Almost any woman would swoon over something like that and say how touched she was that he took a personal interest in getting her a book she mentioned in passing. If Dustin Diamond were to do exactly the same thing he would be deemed pathetic and desperate.
SNL does some great skits which make fun of this kind of thing.
Reality at June 11, 2011 12:09 PM
"I simply think it is silly to treat every person who drinks as if they have a problem with alcoholism, just like I think it is silly to paint with broad brush strokes every self described decent or nice guy as this passive aggressive fellow who seeks to guilt women into relationships."
That's not what we're doing. In fact, we are saying that there are many nice guys - such as my husband, and Amy's bf, Gregg - who do NOT try to guilt women into relationships. But we are talking about the LW, and his suggestion that being "nice" is what is not getting him any dates, though this is most likely for other reasons.
As far my friend, he is in a relationship now. Can't remember if it's with the same woman he had that date with, though it could be. Maybe my advice helped. It couldn't have hurt. As Amy says, what he was doing is just "icky" to most women.
I met him online (he initially contacted me hoping for a relationship), and when he found out we both shared a love of art, he drew me a portrait, even though we'd never even met! He's actually very talented, but that is the kind of move that screams "desperate"!
"This is why the good guy issue is sort of a farce. What women generally want is the guy who generally gets when he wants from everyone else, doesn’t take shit from anyone, but is a teddy bear for her and her alone."
No, that's not true. My husband doesn't treat people badly. He doesn't fight people, even though he's a big guy. He's nice to everyone, which is one of the first things I heard about him. Our mutual friend told me he was the "nicest guy ever". I didn't go running in the opposite direction. His genuine niceness is not a turnoff, nor is it to most sane, stable women. What women don't like about self-proclaimed "nice guys" is not their niceness but their neediness.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 12:11 PM
"If a woman is really into a guy, almost any present will be viewed in a positive light. If a woman is kind of luke warm about a guy, any present will be viewed in a negative light."
True, which is why the average guy better be darned sure she's into him before doing that. Gregg was sure. Sometimes, it only takes a week.
And if you're as hot as Brad Pitt, you can be pretty sure, but everyone else should proceed more cautiously.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 12:16 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2245133">comment from lovelysoulWhat women don't like about self-proclaimed "nice guys" is not their niceness but their neediness.
lovelysoul is exactly right.
And well-put on all of it.
Overgifiting or going overboard with romantic gestures before there's any real show of romantic feelings between the two people is a sign that the guy is needy and desperate, not generous. We don't go running around giving hundred dollar bills to strangers walking down the street. You don't gift people who are pretty much strangers to you, either. It's weird, creepy, and inappropriate.
Amy Alkon at June 11, 2011 12:18 PM
Lovelysoul says:
“No, that's not true. My husband doesn't treat people badly. He doesn't fight people, even though he's a big guy. He's nice to everyone, which is one of the first things I heard about him.”
I don’t recall suggesting that women are attracted to men who treat others badly or fight.
My statement was the following:
“What women generally want is the guy who generally gets when he wants from everyone else, doesn’t take shit from anyone, but is a teddy bear for her and her alone.”
Which is a statement about dominance, power and status, not aggression or violence.
Here is what I am saying, all other things being equal, women will prefer a nice guy. But when things are not equal, power and status trump ethics and kindness for most women (please don’t construe this to mean I am suggesting that women want unkind men… I am only saying that high status is more important than kindness). This shouldn’t really come as much of a surprise.
Confusing aggression and violence with power and status is dangerous. In some environments like prison or within gang territory they can be synonymous. However, in other environments they are not the same thing.
If I were to wager a guess, the friend that you are talking about isn’t just nice… he is also meek. Am I on target or way off base?
Being nice and powerful is fine for most women, being nice and meek is a deal breaker for most women.
As a result I find the discussion about niceness sort of missing the point. It should be about changing behavior with regard to meekness, not about changing behavior with regard to niceness.
The exact same “nice” action taken by a guy who is perceived as coming from a position of strength will be seen by women MUCH differently than an identical action taken by a guy who is perceived as coming from a position of weakness.
As a result the problem has nothing to do with being “too nice” or that the action will appear desperate (after all, Amy's guy bought her an iPod on date 1 and that worked out just fine). It has to do with being nicer than your perceived status warrants. As a result, if a guy determines that he is perceived as weak by a particular woman, then he should be less generous than if he is perceived as being strong.
The criteria being presented here by others do not seem to take this subtle point into account.
Reality at June 11, 2011 12:29 PM
I wrote about this in the column. Women want ASSERTIVE not aggressive men. When you're powerful (as opposed to weak and wanting to seem powerful -- ie, a bully), you don't need to aggress on people. You show force on an as-needed basis.
My boyfriend didn't give me the iPod to bribe me into liking him. It was clear I was very taken with him. He's a generous guy. He tips well and goes out of his way to help people he likes, but if you try to walk on him, you'd better beware.
What trumps what depends on the environment a woman is living in (per research, not just my opinion). If you're living in an area where there's a war, women are more likely to pick dominant, aggressive men. In normal day-to-day life, they don't want those men.
The problem, Reality, has EVERYTHING to do with being "too nice," which is a signal that a guy is a loser who must bribe a woman to get her to want him (because he's too big a pussy and thinks too little of himself to just stand on his own merits).
Gregg did not buy me an iPod on date one. We met at the Apple Store, and I flirted with him. He had the balls to ask me out and we talked for three hours, until he had to leave to buy the iPod and catch his plane to Mississippi. He walked me to my car and grabbed me and kissed me. Not exactly the move of a pussyman. We talked on the phone all week, and it was clear I was very taken with him, and impressed by his thinking, character, humor. When he came back from Mississippi, we had a dinner date planned. He took a risk by giving me the iPod, just as I took a risk sleeping with him before the first date, but we were both coming from an okay place -- interest, not desperation -- and both knew and accepted the potential consequences of our risks and really didn't give a fuck.
I can smell fear on a man from blocks away. I feel sorry for the fearful men and try to help one, but I'd no more be interested in dating one than I'd be interested in dating a man who tries on my panties when I'm not home.
Men who are not weak are generally not perceived as weak by women.
Amy Alkon at June 11, 2011 12:44 PM
" I am a nice guy why do all the girls want to date guys who treat them bad"?
Hmmm...this statement lacks so much honesty I wouldn't know where to begin.
wanda at June 11, 2011 12:56 PM
Amy Says:
“The problem, Reality, has EVERYTHING to do with being "too nice," which is a signal that a guy is a loser who must bribe a woman to get her to want him (because he's too big a pussy and thinks too little of himself to just stand on his own merits).”
Here is my issue with this statement. The problem is that being “too nice” is not an objective standard. Some people for example would consider buying an iPod for someone on a first date, second date, third date, fourth date etc… to be “too nice” and an action that signaled desperation.
The only reason it wasn’t “too nice” is because you already really liked him. Hence being “too nice” is a completely subjective standard.
Now I don’t have a problem with subjective standards, but they need to be discussed on those terms. Which means than no action, no matter how nice it might seem to an outside observer can be considered “too nice” in the absence of additional subjective information.
I mean, if someone did exactly what Gregg did and wrote into you about how they got dumped, you would tell them that they were “too nice” and that the gift was inappropriate. The only difference between than guy and Gregg would be that it worked for Gregg and the hypothetical guy fell flat on his face.
The difference is not in the “niceness” of the action, it is in the subjective interpretation of the action by the woman.
The problem basically comes down to a guy assessing how much a woman likes him, not how “nice” he is. This is an entirely different skill set.
Similarly, “having the balls” to grab and kiss you after talking to you for three hours could just as easily be a story about a creep who molested a woman in a parking lot after a pleasant three hour conversation. The only difference between those stories would be that Gregg accurately assessed your interest where as this hypothetical guy inaccurately assessed the interest. One woman’s nice story about how she met her guy is another woman’s story about how she pressed criminal charges against some guy.
It has very little to do with how nice a guy is and a great deal to do with how good he is at figuring out how much a woman likes him so he can determine what he can “get away with” niceness wise.
Just to share a story about a friend of mine from college. He started dating this girl and things were going alright. They dated for the span of two years and he periodically purchased her presents that were well received. Then came her birthday for which he decided to buy her a new laptop. Now I thought this was a stupid decision, but he was bound and determined to get it for her as a surprise. In any event she soon dumped him because the gift made her feel uncomfortable.
So let’s analyze these situations, Gregg buys you an iPod for your first official date and that is something you swoon over and started a long term relationship where my guess is he has bought you more expensive things since then. This guy buys a new laptop for someone they had been dating and sleeping with for two years and gets dumped soon there after for what would be construed here as being “too nice”.
What I can tell you about this guy is that while he can be fairly assertive when it comes to business and is pretty savvy financially, he is short for a man (a signal of low status), and lets himself be walked over by women (also not a good move for him). His problem wasn’t being “too nice” by buying her a present for her birthday. His problem was that he let her totally call the shots in the relationship and never stood up for himself.
It wasn’t his “niceness” that got him dumped, that was just a convenient excuse because the truth is more ugly, it was his meekness and unwillingness to stand up to her.
By contrast, I doubt that there is anything that Gregg could buy at this point you that would cause you to dump him or lose interest. That was probably true at the two year mark as well.
He could however lose his job and spend every day complaining to you about things as he tried to get his life back together and then buy you a very nice present and you might find that for some reason it makes you feel “uncomfortable” and seems “needy”.
I think teaching men how to better gauge interest from women will be more useful than taking gift giving off the table entirely. After all, it works very effectively if the guy happens to be right that the girl is really into him.
Men only crash and burn when their gauge is completely off and they proceed as if the girl is head over heels for him when she isn't.
Reality at June 11, 2011 1:24 PM
I think that reality hit the nail on the head. I read a study about young college men who either "forgot" about rejections or "didn't read rejecting or disgusted facial expressions. Perhaps it would fall on the autism spectrum for men that are otherwise pretty normal for it would seem to be a form of "mind blindness."
Jen at June 11, 2011 2:23 PM
You speak the truth. Preach on!
Esther at June 11, 2011 4:14 PM
"Here is what I am saying, all other things being equal, women will prefer a nice guy. But when things are not equal, power and status trump ethics and kindness for most women"
So...big deal? You know, we rarely have women writing in complaining, "I'm so nice. Why don't guys want a nice girl?" Maybe they're 100 pds overweight. Yet, most women get that, all things being equal, guys will choose a hot and sexy girl over a nice one. It sucks if you're out of shape, but that's simply the way it is. Same with meek guys. However, women seem to accept the reality of this more than guys do. We spend small fortunes trying to be visually attractive to men because that's just what we need to do. Likewise, guys should realize that being nice isn't enough. You've got to bring more to the table.
"If I were to wager a guess, the friend that you are talking about isn’t just nice… he is also meek. Am I on target or way off base?"
Yes, he's physically meek but he has high status, so it should be a wash. His wimpy behavior is what worked against him. I've known high status men half his size and less attractive who were very desired by women.
"As a result I find the discussion about niceness sort of missing the point. It should be about changing behavior with regard to meekness, not about changing behavior with regard to niceness."
That's exactly the point I've been making1 If you're already a slight guy, it's even more important not to appear weaker by being overly nice too soon.
"I mean, if someone did exactly what Gregg did and wrote into you about how they got dumped, you would tell them that they were “too nice” and that the gift was inappropriate. The only difference between than guy and Gregg would be that it worked for Gregg and the hypothetical guy fell flat on his face."
No, the difference is that Gregg already knew that Amy was into him, so his buying the IPod was truly just a nice gesture. The guy writing in would most likely have an intuition that the woman WASN'T into him, so he makes the "nice" gesture to try to guilt her into liking him more. See the difference? Gregg really had nothing to gain - he'd already won the girl. After that point, a guy can make as many nice gestures as he wants.
But, of course, relationships wain. I'd bet money that your friend who bought the laptop knew his girlfriend was half out the door. He did it to try to keep her. That's not nice - it's manipulative.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 4:31 PM
Thanks Reality for putting into words what I've been thinking the whole thread. I could never have put it as well as you have.
Snoopy at June 11, 2011 4:37 PM
"Men only crash and burn when their gauge is completely off and they proceed as if the girl is head over heels for him when she isn't."
Exactly. Some men seem to have better radar for this than others, so what we need to do is help guys become more aware of the signs.
Kinda like how the book, "He's Just Not That Into You" did that for women. The signs are there. Both genders mistakenly ignore them sometimes.
lovelysoul at June 11, 2011 4:47 PM
Reality, exactly!
lovelysoul and Amy,
I think you're missing Reality's point. Amy was into Greg. He did a bunch of crap that Amy has been on record with not being appropriate or putting up with. But it didn't matter. She was into him.
It's hard for me to imagine that even the best cold reader of character can establish what Greg was in 3 hours.
Since I know fewer girls then you do, answer me how often a 'smart together girlfriend' suddenly falls off the deep end for some guy who is terrible for her? Why? Did she suddenly get a case of the stupids?
Chemistry seems to trump a lot.
flydye at June 12, 2011 12:04 AM
This is not to let the meek off the hook.
You need to bring something to the table. In the old days, with very established ground rules for courtship and dating, the guy had to go and prove himself worthy in a number of ways, from elaborate social occasions he had to suffer under, to making money, to not being the guy in the locker.
Those days are gone. Now we all get to figure it out for ourselves on the internet.
flydye at June 12, 2011 12:14 AM
Yes, chemistry accounts for a lot, but I also believe that most people can tell when it's really there in a major way. Maybe not when it's just so/so, but especially if a woman is really feeling attracted, she'll send signals that it's ok to get closer. I'm sure Amy did that.
Me too. I kissed my husband after our first meeting at the end of the night. I really found him attractive. But he started, while we were talking, with just a gentle touch on my back to test the waters. Then, the touch became a stroke. I didn't pull away. In fact, I think I told him it felt good, and that I normally wouldn't let a guy I just met do that (which was true).
A guy can pretty much take that as a green light. But if you don't get something that clear, it's best not to do anything too bold at first.
Women aren't fools. We know you're looking for a signal...whether you can kiss us or bed us. If we're not sending you a clear signal, there's probably a reason. It doesn't necessarily mean she isn't interested, but she may need more time to get to know you and/or assess the chemistry.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 6:57 AM
Reality, of course young doctors are always "in", but going to Ghana to do open heart surgery can make even old doctors look good.
And how are you defining "middle class"? Because doctors are generally upper middle class, not super high on the ladder unless they're a star surgeon or something.
NicoleK at June 12, 2011 8:27 AM
I've met quite a few passive-aggressive nice guys, back in the day. Perhaps there was something about me that attracted them.
NicoleK at June 12, 2011 8:33 AM
Re: >>If a guy who knows you already brings you a flower, it's sweet. A guy who doesn't know you doing this tells you he has to bribe you into liking him.
Frankly, interpreting such gesture as bringing a flower, be it first date or hundredth, as "bribing"
is rather sick. To bring a flower means little more than
a. making clear that it is not a business meeting or a sales pitch or official summons, but a personal encounter where the man is interested in the woman as a woman.
b. starting acquaintance on a pleasant note.
A woman who perceive such simple and culturally established thing as flowers or mentioned book as a bribe thinks of herself as of a whore.
As far as "wishing for a nice guy" is it a sort of girl porn where "nice" means "whatever I fancy today". It might be a good erotic fantasy but, girls, men a real creatures who would not change according to your whims.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 10:08 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248270">comment from Mere MortalA woman who perceive such simple and culturally established thing as flowers or mentioned book as a bribe thinks of herself as of a whore.
How silly. Are you a true psychic or do you just use a Magic 8 Ball?
Strangers do not walk up to you on the street and give you gifts. People give gifts to grease the way for something they want or out of sentiment. Before there's some show of sentiment, there should be no gifts. Gifts given before there is sentiment are way-greasers, which suggest that a guy is either socially clueless or feels he's too big a loser to just be accepted without supplement.
I've explained that there are nice guys and overly nice guys. See above. Please work on your reading comprehension. Always best to read the item rather than skimming it before flying off and commenting that women are whores.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 10:21 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248304">comment from Mere MortalTo bring a flower means little more than a. making clear that it is not a business meeting or a sales pitch or official summons, but a personal encounter where the man is interested in the woman as a woman.
I always mistook dates for "official summons," didn't the rest of you ladies commenting here?
And when Gregg asked me if I wanted to grab something to drink at The Farmer's Market, top in my mind was the probability that he really just wanted to sell me some old furniture or maybe a used car.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 10:31 AM
"A woman who perceive such simple and culturally established thing as flowers or mentioned book as a bribe thinks of herself as of a whore."
That's ridiculous. Women don't really *think* about this in a conscious way, but it signals to us - after millions of years of evolution - that the guy is more eager and desperate than he should be. Same as a woman who offered up sex on the first date would, to most men, signal that she is easy or promiscuous, even though this may not be true. Still, it is long-established signal to the opposite sex that there may be cause for concern.
Bringing a rose and a book to a first date, as my friend was going to do, creates a subtle obligation. Of course, these "nice" guys would never say so...they contend they're just doing it to be thoughtful. But a gift is still a gift. There is always the subtle pressure to reciprocate, and, at the very least, not be unkind to someone who gives you something.
That is why the guy really does this. Deep down, he knows it will be more uncomfortable for the woman to reject him after he has given her a gift. After all, he is being so nice to her, which makes her look ungrateful to say, "You're not my type....but, uh, thanks for the rose and book."
Then, he can go off complaining what a bitch she is...and really all women are...because they don't like "nice" men.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 10:32 AM
>> Gifts given before there is sentiment are way-greasers
No, they are not.
In societies that were not disturbed by feminism
gifts such as flowers are just a sign of politeness and of a well-wishing attitude towards the woman whom the flowers are given. Nothing else.
A flower is a "way greaser" only in quid-pro-quo social environments.
BTW, O Goddess-in-reason, where is the research that proves (or "indicates") that giving a gift of a flower on the first date correlates strongly with the intention to bribe oneself into being liked?
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 10:43 AM
@lovelysoul >>But a gift is still a gift. There is always the subtle pressure to reciprocate, and, at the very least, not be unkind to someone who gives you something.
Maybe this is true, but a guy would expect (most of the time) only a "thank you" and a nice smile as the reciprocation. Is it too big pressure for ladies?
>>That is why the guy really does this. Deep down, he knows it will be more uncomfortable for the woman to reject him after he has given her a gift.
There are such guys, and I would agree that they are needy on the verge of being sicko. But please, do not assume that most men who make small presents really do it to make it more difficult for the woman to say no.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 10:51 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248507">comment from Mere MortalBTW, O Goddess-in-reason, where is the research that proves (or "indicates") that giving a gift of a flower on the first date correlates strongly with the intention to bribe oneself into being liked?
Perhaps, perhaps not. I have no interest in looking for such research, but feel free to go on Google Scholar and search for it.
Again, a guy who brings presents for a stranger -- giving her a gift merely because she is attractive and exists and agreed to go out with him -- is saying something unattractive about himself. It's kind of like sending a thank you note for a party before you're actually invited to one. Creepy, grasping.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 11:39 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248510">comment from Amy AlkonAnd lovelysoul is exactly right about the sense of obligation it instills. Icky.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 11:40 AM
>>a guy who brings presents for a stranger -- giving her a gift merely because she is attractive and exists and agreed to go out with him -- is saying something unattractive about himself.
Oh, it is nice to know that this is neither research nor reason, but a mere idiosyncratic whim of a Goddess. One can't argue with that.
>>And lovelysoul is exactly right about the sense of obligation it instills.
What's next? Saying "have a nice day" instills an excessive sense of obligation to say in return "thank you"?
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 11:51 AM
So bringing a daisy to a date is an icky debt instilling obligation on a woman...but bringing an iPod after a couple of lattes is cool?
Got it.
flydye at June 12, 2011 11:51 AM
"There are such guys, and I would agree that they are needy on the verge of being sicko. But please, do not assume that most men who make small presents really do it to make it more difficult for the woman to say no."
I wouldn't necessarily assume that, just based on the gift. If the guy seemed confident and the gift was small (inexpensive) and (better yet) something I had casually mentioned admiring, then it might go over as simply a thoughtful gesture.
I'm not saying guys should never bring a lady a book or a flower (though both would likely be overkill on a first date). What I weighed is my friend's overall impression of neediness. He seemed needy because he was needy - he was honestly desperate for a girlfriend.
Had he been a more confident sort, the gifts might've been ok, but combined with what I knew would be his overall needy style, it was more likely to add to his woes, not help him.
Like many "nice" guys, he had a bad habit of wanting to forge friendships with women who were not romantically interested, and, frankly, these little gifts were his "in" for that. Even when a woman rejected him, he'd suggest they attend a play or art show "as friends". His treat, of course. But it was really just an excuse to hang around with them in hopes they'd change their minds, which despite a few brief and depressing entanglements, lead to nothing. You simply can't "friend" someone into falling in love with you.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 11:53 AM
"What's next? Saying "have a nice day" instills an excessive sense of obligation to say in return "thank you"?"
Uh, actually, yes. To not respond seems rude. It's not excessive, but it is a subtle social obligation.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 11:56 AM
>>But it was really just an excuse to hang around with them in hopes they'd change their minds, which despite a few brief and depressing entanglements, lead to nothing.
I would not be sure about that.
Giving gifts to women brings some pleasure to men no matter if woman reciprocates or not even with a smile. It is ancient pattern with men.
"Ars amatoria" maybe a suggested reading here instead of all that modern fad of "evolutionary psychology" research.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 12:04 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248568">comment from flydyeSo bringing a daisy to a date is an icky debt instilling obligation on a woman...but bringing an iPod after a couple of lattes is cool? Got it.
We had Orange Crush, and it was so obvious I was into him that Gregg grabbed me and kissed me after he walked me to my car. Note female show of interest in the guy -- which you don't have BEFORE the first date. We then talked on the phone all week while he was in Tishomingo, Mississippi. It was clear I was very into him. The iPod, at that point, came off as a wild and fun gesture, not as a bribe. I'd spent hours talking to him on the phone, and Gregg isn't a needy guy. If he's not wanted somewhere, he's the first to not want to be there; he doesn't try to worm his way in.
P.S. He barely got in my house before we started making out. We never made it to dinner. I think he only got around to giving me the iPod after I'd slept with him, but it was eight-plus years ago, so I can't really recall.
Also, it's a risk to sleep with a guy right away, just as it's a risk to give a woman an expensive gift right away, but I never needed a guy enough to play it safe, and Gregg is equally unneedy. He loves to surprise people -- but the deserving, not strangers. He's currently going out of his way to try to get some cool presenters for Diana from Press Club for the Press Club Awards. Why? Because he likes Diana, who's a cool Swede and a sweetheart, and he wanted to do something nice for her. He's only in Press Club because of me (it's cheaper for him to go to some events with me that way), and will benefit from being nice to Diana in no way.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>"What's next? Saying "have a nice day" instills an excessive sense of obligation to say in return "thank you"?"
>>Uh, actually, yes. To not respond seems rude. It's not excessive, but it is a subtle social obligation.
My compassion goes to you, lovelysoul.
Life should stink to high heaven to take every trifle as a "subtle social obligation" instead of being a little joy of human interaction.
But then again, I am not leaving in a megapolis.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 12:06 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248575">comment from Mere Mortalall that modern fad of "evolutionary psychology" research.
I love when people diminish research that way. Either data is solid, and not outweighed by the limitations and errors of the study (and all studies have limitations and errors) or it is not. I don't use biased and shoddy research in my work.
And I doubt Ovid advised being a needy suckup as a way to get the girls.
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 12:08 PM
>>I love when people diminish research that way.
O Goddess, thank you for accepting my small gift!
I'll go and drink my self to giving flowers to strangers on the streets.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 12:12 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2248644">comment from Mere MortalThe unfortunate thing is, I've been wasting time replying to you when I could've been working on my column. Mere effort in the reading comprehension department and a little rational thought on your part could've have prevented this (also, I could avoid engaging when comments are just silly and lovelysoul has already done a very good job of debunking).
Amy Alkon at June 12, 2011 12:22 PM
Yeah, your comments are getting silly, Mortal.
Look, you can give all the gifts and flowers you want. Nobody is stopping you, and it may even work in some cultures and in certain situations. But, as you say, if giving the gift, itself, is enough, then it doesn't matter whether it impresses the lady or not. If you go home alone, at least you know you've been "a little joy of human interaction".
But some guys here may want practical advice about how to get a girlfriend, and, as many women here have pointed out, it's not a good idea to give a gift upfront unless you already know she's into you...at least if having her go out with you again is the goal, not just handing out roses.
In college, I had an Iranian guy I went out with a couple of times present me with a "gift" of a locket of hair. Turns out it was mine! (I had very long hair back then). He'd cut it off on our first date.
In his culture, that was apparently some sort of sweet gesture, intended to make me feel special as his intended bride, but it went over like a lead balloon with me. So, doing what works in other cultures isn't necessarily advisable.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 12:46 PM
As women get older their perspective on this tends to change as they seek out partners with greater stability and who have a socially redeeming value set already established. This doesn’t help decent young men much unless they are all expected to date much older women who have grown out of the “bad boy” phase.
Or to translate it into Leikes:
After the girl has her fun with Rarg and finally his nonsense palls, she'll deign to accept someone needy as long as he treats her like she was still the prize she was 10-20 years ago.
flydye at June 12, 2011 12:52 PM
@lovelysoul
Calling my arguments silly means they are so to the point you don't know what to respond.
If a guy gives gifts, and the woman perceives that he expects reciprocation beyond what she is willing (not feels obligated, however subtly!) to give she should say it point blank. The end of story.
No need for all these "signs of being needy or desperate or being a suck up" interpretations.
If our Goddess-in-reason were in a bit more reasonable mood today (all blessings of research be upon Her!) she would have explained that evolutionary psychology indicates that giving gifts to a woman puts a man into a "sacrifice" mode, however subtly, that he should be prepared for in case of having an offspring with her.
So, we are talking here about a behavior that transcends cultures.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 1:05 PM
"After the girl has her fun with Rarg and finally his nonsense palls, she'll deign to accept someone needy as long as he treats her like she was still the prize she was 10-20 years ago."
No, needy is never attractive. Most of my friends haven't been into "bad boys" Good-looking, confident, successful men, yes. That's always in style for both genders. Sometimes, these relationships work and sometimes they don't. When they don't, it's easy to label the guy a jerk.
But isn't it always the ones who don't measure up who like to label the ones in high demand as "bad"? Women do that with other women too.
If a guy is attracted to a hot chick with great body and lovely face, you'll often hear the same type of the derision. What a "bimbo" she is and how shallow he is for preferring that over a "nice" girl (who is usually unattractive but has many "nice" qualities)
Same thing, guys. The whole "nice" complaint is mainly sour grapes. Women are not rejecting men because they're nice - any more than men are rejecting women because they're "nice". The rejection comes because they aren't attractive, for various reasons.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 1:11 PM
Also, it's important to remember that most women wait to be approached. They don't go out looking for "bad boys" (unless they're drama queens).
However, the sad fact is that usually the guys with the balls to approach the most attractive women are often the "bad boys" - the smooth manipulators with lots of practice telling a woman what she wants to hear.
I've learned, after all my life experience, that when I go out, that kind of guy will almost always approach me first, while the sweet, shy "beta" guy will stand back and watch, hoping for an opening that the player isn't likely to give him.
Most young girls simply don't know this. They end up involved with those players in many cases because that's who TALKS to them. They're not specifically looking for a "bad boy". In fact, they think he's a good guy at first.
lovelysoul at June 12, 2011 1:29 PM
>>But some guys here may want practical advice about how to get a girlfriend, and, as many women here have pointed out, it's not a good idea to give a gift upfront unless you already know she's into you...at least if having her go out with you again is the goal, not just handing out roses.
And this is a very poor advice.
To LW: be confident and self-assured in whatever you are doing.
90% of how it is interpreted by a woman you are courting is how you believe it is.
If you thinks of your own actions as a "suck up" or "whining" then that's how the woman will perceive it. If you believe in your heart that your actions are courteous and gallant, that's will be most likely impression on a woman.
And the last thing: forget about being nice in the opinion of others, be nice on your own terms.
Good luck.
Mere Mortal at June 12, 2011 1:31 PM
Note female show of interest in the guy
This is the major distinction here, I think. If the woman has given little or no indication of whether she is into you, then the gift comes off as being given because she's a female who agreed to go out with you. If you're fairly certain she's into you, then a small, personal gift is sweet.
If you believe in your heart that your actions are courteous and gallant, that's will be most likely impression on a woman.
Not necessarily, because that's assuming we're always conscious of our reasons. Click on the hyperlink I posted early in the thread. The guy with the turtle earrings thought he was being sweet and thoughtful when he was coming off as creepy and desperate. Needy people don't always think they're doing things because they're needy. Rationalizations can be persistent and pervasive. Emotionally healthy people typically don't need more than the advice to be confident and self-assured, but people like the LW and Turtle Earrings Guy probably need more basic, step-by-step advice until they can do it without thinking. It's going to take the needy and desperate more time and work to not be needy and desperate than it would you or I.
NumberSix at June 12, 2011 8:37 PM
There is this man at work that has confessed that he likes me, has feelings for me, said that he is attracted to me, will have lunch with me, he would always give me a small food gift every time we see each other,etc. I told him I do not feel the same, I like him as a friend, Im not attracted to him. I think its not about good guy bad boy....now if someone I liked or was attracted to, the feelings / actions would be different. I would always tell him he does not need to get me anything. I would always give the food item away. If someone I liked did the same actions,....totally different reaction would be given. I think it just depends on the woman how much she likes the person
Pumpkin at June 13, 2011 8:15 PM
oh and yes, it was getting creepy, so I lessen the time I spend with him at work. I try to give excuses not to hang out with him.
If I liked him I would want more and more time, ....but yes its..ew!
pumpkin at June 13, 2011 8:20 PM
Right. And the funny thing is that guys do understand this if it were in reverse. If some girl that they have zero chemistry with was doing the same thing - baking them little pies, and buying them knicknacks - they'd be just as turned off (though they would still eat the pie :)).
Nobody wants a doormat. Some people can get away with being needy if they're very attractive, but for people of average attractiveness (or less), these kinds of moves are bound to fail.
And they are usually extended towards people who are way out of that person's league. That was my friend's problem too. Being an artist, he was very visual, so he always went after beautiful women that were way out of his league.
He finally found a nice enough looking lady who appreciated him, and he almost blew that because he complained that she was about 10-15 pds overweight!
Amazingly, she lost the weight and now looks wonderful. So, he is very happy. But, he had a long road to get there because of all the boneheaded moves he made while dating.
lovelysoul at June 14, 2011 6:07 AM
Hmmm...
One flower, one food offering does not a doormat make. In fact even twelve flowers do not make it.
I think this "doormat-nice guy" concept is just a reflection of "girl power" thingy. When someone seeks to see oneself or one's own gender as "superior" there are plenty of excuses to interpret otherwise neutral actions in the desired fashion.
You go girls! Nemesis is watching...
Mere Mortal at June 14, 2011 7:27 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2257314">comment from Mere MortalHmmm... One flower, one food offering does not a doormat make. In fact even twelve flowers do not make it. I think this "doormat-nice guy" concept is just a reflection of "girl power" thingy. When someone seeks to see oneself or one's own gender as "superior" there are plenty of excuses to interpret otherwise neutral actions in the desired fashion. You go girls! Nemesis is watching...
Oh, please.
It's not about "When someone seeks to see oneself or one's own gender as 'superior'" -- what a load of crap. It's about getting when a guy feels like too much of a loser to just be accepted as a person without some type of bribe/offering.
Read me often? I'm not exactly the head of feminism.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2011 8:01 AM
Yeah, please. It works (or doesn't work) with both genders. If I'd shown up to every first date with a fresh baked apple pie, most guys would've been a little creeped out, especially if I wasn't their type.
Gift giving is best saved for after you already know the person likes you. After that, you can give as many flowers as you want. Before that, giving 12 flowers would seem stalkerish.
To follow your advice, Mortal, LW should just rent a white horse and come galloping in with a rose on every date. How gallant and romantic! Unfortunately, that would only work for Fabio or Brad Pitt. Anybody else would look ridiculous.
lovelysoul at June 14, 2011 9:04 AM
>>It works (or doesn't work) with both genders.
No. There is no symmetry.
If a man brings flowers to the first date then it is just a few thousand years old tradition of being polite.
If a woman brings a pie to the first date then it is out of place and might be seen by the man as a bit odd.
Mere Mortal at June 14, 2011 9:10 AM
We're telling you, as women, that the tradition of flowers for first dates is dying off. It may be expected of someone my father's age (79), and would probably be welcome by his lady friends. But, today, with most women under 45, at least, it's not expected and can come off too desperate or an attempt to be too suave...maybe even a player.
Again, it depends on the man. If he's confident in all other regards, it may seem charming, although, then, the player aspect comes in. How many other women is he giving flowers to? That would likely be my thought. Does he use this gesture on every woman he dates or did he pick those flowers on the side of the road because he was so excited to meet ME? One would be flattering, the other would just seem like his "schtick" for picking up women.
Gregg's Ipod gift was perfect. He already knew she liked him, so it didn't seem like bribery, and due to circumstances, he ended up with an extra one, so it wasn't an extravagant purchase on his part. Most importantly, it was specific to Amy because he knew it was something she wanted.
That's better than a flower. Anybody can give a flower without much thought, and if it's something a guy does ALL the time - to every women he fancies - it's not even special.
lovelysoul at June 14, 2011 9:54 AM
I was one of those Certified Nice Guys in my early twenties - you know, the kind that women "feel safe around," and can tell their troubles to (especially about their "jerk" boyfriends). I eventually realized that being a CNG meant living as a Chronically Frustrated Chump, and that I was in that condition because I was desperate, and not comfortable with myself. I never blamed it on women being attracted to jerks - and I never wanted to become one. It took a while, but I learned to loosen up and be more assertive, and I became a more attractive prospect. I've been married now for more than fourteen years to a Dream Girl.
Philzer at June 14, 2011 10:51 AM
Wonderful, Philzer! Good for you!
lovelysoul at June 14, 2011 11:02 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2258160">comment from PhilzerYay, Philzer. I was a doormat in my early 20s but I figured out that being a suckup wasn't a way to have friends or boyfriends, so I built myself a spine. Wasn't easy, took a lot of self-discipline, but the other way is no way to live.
Amy Alkon at June 14, 2011 11:40 AM
We're telling you, as women, that the tradition of flowers for first dates is dying off.
I showed up to a blind date once with a small, small boquet of non 'romantic' flowers, I could see the wheels turning behind her eyes about them, the way her eyebrows lifted and she seemed a little disapointed. So I didnt offer them to her, I just set them on the table next to me and didnt even mention them.
That threw her for a loop, she kept glancing at them and finally after about a half an hour she asked about the flowers. I acted slightly confused about the subject, and then mentioned I was going to stop by an old freinds after the date and wasnt sure if I'd have time afterwards if our date had run longer then expected.
Ironically she seemed far more interested in me for showing up with a gift not intended for her then she was when she thought the flowers were for her.
I tried that move on purpouse a few times but it seemed fairly hit and miss as to effectivness
lujlp at June 14, 2011 1:47 PM
If a man brings flowers to the first date then it is just a few thousand years old tradition of being polite.
Well, that's part of the thing for me. "Oh, look he brought me flowers because he's 'supposed' to bring me flowers." There are still women who expect gifts on the first date, yes. Those are women who think they should receive gifts for agreeing to go out with a man. Those women pair up nicely with men who think they should bring gifts women who agreed to go out with them.
lovelysoul makes a good point about flowers/candy/generic crap. There are women who want flowers because they're a gift and there are women who hate flowers because they're just any gift. Flowers on a first date especially smack of "offering" since it's unlikely the man knows what the woman likes. Now, a few dates in, if you know she loves having fresh irises in the house, then go nuts. That's sweeter and more personal (and, therefore, more appreciated by many women) than showing up on a first date with just anything.
I also don't think all men who bring flowers on the first date intend them as bribery. To me, it actually comes off more as him thinking I want him to show up with something so he goes safe and gets flowers. I, however, am not one of the women I mentioned above, so I don't want a date thinking he has to give me a gift just because we're on a date. That's better saved for when we know each other a little better, and it'll mean more then.
NumberSix at June 14, 2011 2:40 PM
If Mr. Nice is content with his life as a whole except for the dating part, perhaps he should try different veunes for meeting women. He may be going only to the popular hot spots where the bad girls and boys play.....
Stosh2 at June 15, 2011 6:24 AM
BTW, since the topic of medical research came up, Amy Alkon should check out the latest issue of New York Review of Books. There is the first of a two-part series on drugs prescribed for mental problems (Prozac, etc).
The article, and the books reviewed, are simply amazing. Medical "research" is rather easily compromised.
This follows on the heels of an excellent New Yorker article a few months back to the effect that many drugs and tharapies, even after going through the FDA and being "proven" effective, then are ineffective in actual use.
This leaves serious thinkers in a quandary. If what is considered to be bona-fide replicable medical research is in fact deeply compromised, what are we to believe? Our own prejudices and anecdotes?
I find most people in fact believe their own bias and anecdotes, and cite the "research" that buttresses their own views as proof.
What is alarming about the NYROB article is that even if you are trying to be honest, the "studies" you cite are likely deeply flawed.
BOTU at June 15, 2011 2:33 PM
I have been traveling for the past few days so I have not been able to expand upon my thoughts on this topic until now. Over that time I have been able to give this issue some thought and I now know why the classification of “passive aggressive nice guys” doesn’t ring true as a large or even significant portion of the population.
Lovelysoul says:
“You know, we rarely have women writing in complaining, "I'm so nice. Why don't guys want a nice girl?"
There is a very good reason for this. Generally when men are asked what they are looking for in a woman they don’t focus on personality traits like “nice”, “funny” and “smart”. They will directly tell you what they are primarily looking for (i.e. young, thin, athletic legs, large breasts etc…) and then they will be subsequently informed how shallow they are. Women avoid being called shallow by not being direct and only listing the “secondary” traits they are interested in (generally leaving out physical features and financial requirements).
As a result it shouldn’t be surprising why more men write in about being confused, it is because they took the statements women made to them at face value.
“We spend small fortunes trying to be visually attractive to men because that's just what we need to do.”
Then you should be thankful that in general men have been direct and honest about what they are really looking for.
“Likewise, guys should realize that being nice isn't enough.”
They should, but they made the unfortunate mistake of taking the common advice women offer them at face value. Surely you would admit that men don’t get this message from most women in a direct and honest fashion, wouldn’t you?
It is interesting that your thoughts here bring me down the path of differing communication strategies between the sexes. This is because there are many assumptions women make about what men pick up on, what they don’t pick up on, as well as what they “should” pick up on or are expected to pick up on. This relates directly to the topic at hand.
For example, when you say the following:
“No, the difference is that Gregg already knew that Amy was into him, so his buying the IPod was truly just a nice gesture. The guy writing in would most likely have an intuition that the woman WASN'T into him, so he makes the "nice" gesture to try to guilt her into liking him more. See the difference?”
You (as well as many others in this thread) have made the unsupported assertion that Gregg “knew” that Amy was into him and that by contrast the LW “knew” that this woman wasn’t into him and was trying to bribe her despite that knowledge.
While I can agree that if this was actually the case there would be a legitimate difference between these situations, I want to submit to you a third and more likely alternative.
I want to put on the table a possibility that exists in the vast gray area between the “generous nice guy” and the “passive aggressive nice guy” that have been discussed so far. That third possibility is the “clueless nice guy” who is honestly trying his best to figure out the signals he is getting from women, but on occasion interprets them incorrectly. A guy who gets the signals wrong and mistakenly thinks a woman is really into him, but in actuality isn’t interested, isn’t buying her anything to “guilt her into liking him more”. That guy legitimately thinks he is in the same situation Gregg was in, the only problem is that he is wrong.
The funny part about all of this is that there is no differentiating between the “clueless nice guy” and either of the other cases except by success rate. I also posit that often times when a woman thinks her guy is the “generous nice guy”, he’s really just a “clueless nice guy” who got it right that time.
Men take chances when doing things like asking women out, paying for dinner, buying them presents, going in for a first kiss, etc... Those chances are calculated risks that can go one way or another. Generally men only get better at interpreting the signs with ample practice (thus reducing their failure rate), that means that young men are especially susceptible to getting it wrong by accident with none of this passive aggressive motivation that everyone has been harping over.
Sometimes on this site people will liken dating to a “dance” where men play their part and women play their part. This is a fine analogy and all, but it gets kind of obnoxious when people assume that if a guy steps on a woman’s foot during the dance that he somehow did it on purpose and really has a secret vendetta to stomp on her toes. Isn’t is far more reasonable to assume that most times when something like that happens it was accidental or that the guy is still learning the steps?
“I'd bet money that your friend who bought the laptop knew his girlfriend was half out the door. He did it to try to keep her.”
And why is this possibility more likely than the possibility that he honestly didn’t know she was half out the door? He had been buying her things for two years without any trouble, why would he expect this time to suddenly be different?
It is as if some people in this thread are acting like men in general are amazingly good at picking up on and interpreting the often times subtle signals women send them. As a result when they end up getting the signals wrong, they are accused of doing it on purpose, which clearly makes them passive aggressive because surely they “knew” what the signals really meant.
I mean, even old married women will complain how their husbands somehow don’t get their signals right. In those situations the guy has had the advantage of knowing that particular woman for decades and still manages to get it wrong. Yet somehow it is reasonable to assume that all men are experts in assessing a women’s interest level over the course of a few hours (some men are VERY good at this, but most aren't).
I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure that most men are just trying their best to make out what they can from the signals they do pick up, but sometimes they just get it wrong. That doesn’t make them passive aggressive, that makes them fallible and human.
I think this site would do men a better service trying to teach them what to look for, teaching them how to properly assess a woman’s interest (and when communicating these things it would be helpful to be honest and direct). That skill will serve them much better than a blanket ban on present purchasing… because if a woman happens to be expecting a gift at some point in the relationship and he doesn’t show up with one because he mistakenly believes it is too early he is going to lose points that way too.
And lastly:
“We know you're looking for a signal...whether you can kiss us or bed us. If we're not sending you a clear signal, there's probably a reason.”
What women think are “clear signals” are not necessarily “clear” to most men. Just because you think it is clear doesn’t mean much. A scientist can offer you a perfectly “clear” definition of a scientific principle, but it would be foolish for them to assume that anyone and everyone will understand what they are talking about.
Men are excellent at understanding direct and unambiguous communication, women are very skilled at communicating via subtle signals that they feel are concrete and easy to understand. Unfortunately this difference results in what seems “clear” and obvious to one group getting totally misinterpreted up by the other.
Reality at June 16, 2011 7:09 PM
Extremely well said, Reality!
While not a real-life example, I was watching a chick flick called "Going the Distance" the other night (the Dbacks were losing to the Giants and I couldn't bear to watch). In the beginning of the movie, the Justin Long character is making out with his girlfriend on the couch. He'd ordered in Chinese food since it was her birthday. He tried to lead her to the bedroom and she balked because she wanted her birthday gift before they get it on.
Justin: "Buuuuuuuuut...you said you didn't want a gift."
Girl: "I said that because I want a gift!"
The girl dumps him on the spot because he has no birthday gift.
In a real-life example, I wound up in marriage counseling after a year-long military deployment. My now-ex-wife railed on and on to the counselor about all the supposedly horrible treatment I'd subjected her to over the ten years of our relationship. I just looked at her and asked, "Why didn't you ever tell ME any those things?"
Naturally, she had no answer beyond, "You should have known!" I am not sure HOW I should have known, since I am not clairvoyant, nor do I carry a crystal ball in my pocket.
Many people here seem to be chomping at the bit to diagnose the subject of every letter with narcissism, "cluster B," or borderline personality disorder. In reality, people mainly just make mistakes, communicate poorly, misunderstand situations, and are often innocently clueless. There's nothing sinister or manipulative about most of them. They're mainly not mentally ill. They're just people being people, and people screw up all the time.
MikeInRealLife at June 17, 2011 9:01 AM
Mike, those are exactly the kind of women I was talking about in my earlier post. They are the women who expect regular gifts just to get regular gifts. I even knew someone who had her boyfriend set up a regular delivery at the florist's so she would get a bouquet every two weeks...delivered to her office, of course, because otherwise, what's the point? Reasonable women don't expect gifts on the first date and don't play the "I don't want a gift, but if you don't give me one, you'll be punished" game. They don't expect their boyfriends/husbands to read their minds and then punish them for failing to do so. They are, well, reasonable. If you find yourself involved with one of the unreasonable, gift-grubbing kind of woman, then better you be dumped for a minor infraction then spend more time getting invested in the relationship, I say. Those women are better paired with the "nice guys" who need to give inappropriate gifts. Manipulators belong together.
Also, yes, Mike, people screw up. But isn't it worth looking at why you're screwing up repeatedly, like this LW? A little introspection can save you from future screwups.
NumberSix at June 17, 2011 8:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2279776">comment from NumberSixNumberSix is absolutely right about reasonable women. And if you get together with one who is not, YOU are responsible.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2011 9:58 PM
It's a lot more complicated than that. Gang members are second only to athletes in popularity with girls in high school. Notorious murderers in prison have no shortage of women who want to marry them. Since women can only have so many kids, their best bet to spread their genes is to have a son who gets a lot of women pregnant. These guys tend to be pretty rotten. So, Darwinian factors tend women toward creeps and outlaws. Genghis Khan's decendents run into the tens or hundreds of millions. Your typical nice guy is lucky to leave enough offspring to keep his genetic line going.
Robert at June 18, 2011 9:31 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2283379">comment from RobertCreeps and outlaws and the women who have sex with them have what's called a "fast life history strategy" -- like rabbits. Rabbits have many offspring quickly. Elephants and good guys (and again, I'm not talking about overly-nice guys, who are not nice guys but wimpy losers who think being a suckup is a good strategy) have a slow life history. Elephants have one baby, with a long gestation period, and care for it with the help of other mothers in the herd.
My neighbors, for example, have a slow life history strategy. They're highly trained architects (the husband is a professor, with tenure, at a major university), and they have two children which they take very good care of. They're married parents, and make a family altogether -- they aren't like these mothers who have multiple children by multiple fathers who disappear or are sporadically in their kids' lives (or who sometimes take the child and parent it when it's the mother who is the least responsible "parent").
A guy like my neighbor's husband -- employed, highly accomplished, hardworking, kind, a good dad, and a good person -- is very desirable to a woman who wants kids and a family.
Amy Alkon at June 18, 2011 9:36 PM
Why bother trying to please American and Western Women?
Look at the photo of Amy Alkon at the top left of this page. To American eyes and to American Women, she appears cheeky, confident, empowered.
To the rest of the world, she appears cocky, immodest and smug. Those are not desired qualities in most cultures, by the way. For either men or women.
The reason why Nice Guys don't do well in America is because it is a socially sick culture.
Only a sick society would value bad boy, thuggish, criminal, lower class, sociopathic attitudes of men towards women, but yet that is exactly what many here suggest as a means to get a woman.
Not worth it.
Move to any other nation where sanity still prevails.
Lee Raconteur at July 1, 2011 9:22 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2319741">comment from Lee RaconteurTo American eyes and to American Women, she appears cheeky, confident, empowered. To the rest of the world, she appears cocky, immodest and smug.
You know "the rest of the world" that well?
You speak in the broad global terms of a man who thinks he knows everything.
Amy Alkon at July 1, 2011 10:43 PM
Kaufman summed up his talk by describing the ideal man as strong without being aggressive and demanding, and sensitive without being meek, wimpy, or submissive. He described this man as "the Prestigious Man," and gave George Clooney as an example. This sort of man is confident, achievement-oriented and extroverted while also being caring, generous and helpful.
I agree that women want all of those characteristics -- just as men ideally want everything in a woman -- but I believe that most women place a much higher value on confidence, achievement and extroversion in a man than they do on a man being caring, generous and helpful. So it's not that women don't like nice (genuinely nice) guys. They do. But I believe that being nice is secondary to the alpha male characteristics that are the greatest attraction to most women.
Jim at July 3, 2011 11:31 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/06/extreme-meekove.html#comment-2326080">comment from Jimconfidence, achievement and extroversion in a man than they do on a man being caring, generous and helpful.
A guy who is caring, generous, and helpful but wimpy and jobless isn't going to cut it. A man who is genuinely strong, on the other hand, doesn't need to act dominant. It's a package deal. Some women will make bad choices, but this is the idea he's talking about.
Amy Alkon at July 4, 2011 12:18 AM
I think this quickmeme says it all:
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/353tyh/
JoJo at April 1, 2012 11:54 AM
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