The Shopping Cart Before The Horse
I had to talk a guy friend out of showing up on a first date with a rose and a book the woman had casually mentioned she liked. He's a genuinely nice guy and professionally quite successful, but he repeatedly turns women off by coming on too strong too soon with these gifts. Can you please explain to guys why they shouldn't do this?
--Woman Who's Been There
It's a really bad idea for a guy to give flowers to a girl he's just meeting, unless she's just won the Kentucky Derby. In that case, he could also slip her a carrot and slap her on the rump.
Unless a woman shows up for your first date wearing a saddle, limit your gifts to an on-time arrival and smelling like you've showered recently. Anything more comes off like a sales promotion: "Date your way to a free panini maker! Trip to Mazatlan after five completed sex acts!" Selling a woman on liking you before you see whether you like her suggests you have wildly low standards. Never mind who she is; you'll take any woman who's a woman and not in jail or too busy filing a restraining order against you to meet you for a drink.
Evolutionary psychologist Gad Saad, author of the terrific new book "The Consuming Instinct," has studied the timing of gift-giving in romantic relationships. He explained to me that courtship behaviors need to be modulated in their timing and frequency. "Telling a woman that she looks beautiful is nice. Repeating it 35 times during dinner is not. It creates an asymmetry in the power dynamics that renders the guy less attractive." Likewise, giving gifts too early in dating "reeks of desperation," Saad said. "Recall that many women are attracted to alpha males who can otherwise only be 'tamed' by the love of the one unique woman (the classic rendition of the male archetype in romance novels). If the guy is swooning all over the woman on the first date, there is nothing to tame."
There's that saying that gifts should be given from the heart, which always makes me flash on gift-wrapping Grandpa's stent. But, as a rule, you shouldn't give a present to a woman until you've worked up some affection for her and she seems to have some for you. Expensive gifts early on tend to make a woman who isn't a gold digger uncomfortable and tell a woman who is that you're a prime chump. Instead, give fun, inexpensive things that tell her you were listening when she said she loves monkeys and weren't just saying "Yeah, uh-huh" and running baseball stats in your head. By showing that you care about what's special to her, you're telling her that she's becoming special to you, sending the message "It had to be you," as opposed to "It could've been anyone, but you'll do."
Special thanks to lovelysoul, who asked this question in the comments on another question here, and kindly wrote it up for my column.
When I was 15, I had a boss who told me to never give a woman anything, make them give you something. That way, he said, they will be glad to see you, hoping you will pay them back. If they owe you, they won't be glad to see you.
I think this works for anyone, male or female.
ken in sc at July 19, 2011 6:39 PM
...giving gifts too early in dating "reeks of desperation," Saad said. "Recall that many women are attracted to alpha males who can otherwise only be 'tamed' by the love of the one unique woman (the classic rendition of the male archetype in romance novels). If the guy is swooning all over the woman on the first date, there is nothing to tame."
Desperatoin and insecurity, methinks. Also, ken, I don't know your former boss, but I think he's wrong. Looking for a woman to give you something first before you give her something says that you don't think she's worth pursuing unless she "gives you something". Not right. It should be about mutual reciprocation, not who gives to who first. I realize the ball has to get rolling at some point, but isn't it better if it's worth it to both people, rather than just the one?
Flynne at July 19, 2011 7:15 PM
Instead, give fun, inexpensive things that tell her you were listening when she said she loves monkeys and weren't just saying "Yeah, uh-huh" and running baseball stats in your head.
I think this is what people miss when defending early gift-giving. It's not that you shouldn't give anything, it's that you shouldn't look like you're too insecure to win her over on your own. Gifts should be personal, not generic "supposed to" gifts (this goes for jewelry later on, guys--are you sure she really likes diamond studs, or is she supposed to like them?). That said, don't be Turtle Earrings Guy and give personal gifts before you've actually gone out.
I think this works for anyone, male or female.
Absolutely. Anyone looking to build a relationship on scorekeeping and goods exchange.
NumberSix at July 19, 2011 8:04 PM
Seems like a good rule of thumb that in the early stages of dating, all gifts should be consumable. Flowers, wine, food--yes, books--no. No one wants a momento sitting around their house reminding them of the guy they went on one date with. Flowers aren't a bad idea and a lot of women will like them, but the single rose is pretty cliched/cheesy. Make it a bouquet of less expensive flowers, and save it for date two or three so you can ascertain that your date goes for that stuff.
Shannon at July 19, 2011 8:37 PM
save it for date two or three so you can ascertain that your date goes for that stuff.
YES. And it's not just because it can come off as needy or desperate. A guy shows up with red roses for me, I assume he's hedging his bets if I'm one of those women who requires a gift like that to go out with a guy. Because those women do exist, and they're partly to blame for men who give generic bribes/gifts. They're the ones who "train" men into giving big, showy gifts that show up at work, because if her friends/frenemies don't see exactly how much she's worth to him in goods and services, it doesn't really count.
NumberSix at July 19, 2011 9:37 PM
Shannon: Seems like a good rule of thumb that in the early stages of dating, all gifts should be consumable. Flowers, wine, food--yes,
Flowers are consumable? What do you date? Goats?
Patrick at July 19, 2011 9:59 PM
"It's a really bad idea for a guy to give flowers to a girl he's just meeting, unless she's just won the Kentucky Derby. In that case, he could also slip her a carrot and slap her on the rump."
Hmm. A phallic vegetable, a slap on the rump, a rose and a book. Not to go BOTU on you, but it sounds like a REALLY HOT first date...
This seems like very good advice...except for the bit where lovelysoul IIRC, mentioned that the guy already knew the girl in question someowhat and knew she was into that book. So this wasn't a 'meaningless' and random gift. He probably felt that jumping the gun and being thoughtful considering their prior knowledge made this appropriate. And since he is 'successful' the cost of the book means as much as the cost of the rose, that should be taken into account.
And it's also good advice except if the girl is really REALLY into you and wants to swap spit at the first opportunity. Because if she's into you, nothing seems to be inappropriate including the slap on the rump. (Saddles might have to wait for date four, however, if I'm up on my Emily Post Time)
flydye at July 19, 2011 10:46 PM
I hate to call stereotype, but this is normal girl BS in some ways.
Not to pick on Amy, because other girls have said this about their relationships too, but anything is forgivable if the girl is into you.
And how does he know you are into him? Well, putting aside telepathy, he makes a guess. And sometimes, as in Amy and Greg, he/they guess wildly successfully and share and iPod and nookie on the second date, despite how 'wildly' inappropriate it is. Again, not to pick on Amy alone. She's just been the most clear on her relationships.
God help the guy if he guesses wrong however. Then a single rose at the wrong time (i.e. any time the woman doesn't want it...or thinks it's 'cheesy'...or is the wrong color) and the guy might as well just pack it in because he 'ruined' whatever little fantasy is running in the woman's head.
It is a rose. It is a book. It is not a magic ticket to your vagina. Yes, some guys hope to buy their way in...and some guys just like to be thought of as thoughtful and remembering crap you bring up (just like all those cheesy stupid rom-com's women love demand).
It seems sometimes that actually TRYING to be thoughtful and pay attention is to be punished.
Me, I'm going the cheap route. I'm not remembering anything you say or anything you casually mention you want because frankly, it seems these gestures are huge minefields.
And you women have no one to blame but yourselves.
flydye at July 19, 2011 11:03 PM
It seems sometimes that actually TRYING to be thoughtful and pay attention is to be punished.
This is different than bringing generic flowers or something that's not personal. It's also different than showing up with a book she said she liked on the first date. (Parenthetically, if she liked the book, why didn't she have it already? Or if she got it from the library or a friend, why give her something she already read instead of something he thought she'd like based on that book?) The book is a less egregious offense than the rose, because it is personal and does show he was paying attention. However, unless they knew each other really well before that first date, paying attention that closely can come off as creepy. If you don't know how the gift will be received (and as LS described this guy as so eager, I bet he didn't actually know and was just going on his fantasy of what would happen), why not wait a bit before giving?
If you think gift-giving is a minefield (and it can be, depending on the women), don't give so early in the relationship. Get to know her and you'll find out if she appreciates the thoughtfulness, screams like a harpy at any overt gesture or expects gifts as repayment for her going out with you.
NumberSix at July 19, 2011 11:28 PM
I couldn't agree more that flowers, or any sort of gift, on a first date or even the first several dates is completely inappropriate and I would never do it. My ex-wife gets first dates that turn into last dates in this way all the time. It seems to be a pretty common misconception among men.
Off topic, but still flower-related: There seems to be a real generational gap in bringing flowers for the hostess of a dinner party. I'm not terribly old, but was raised by pretty old fashioned people. I was going to a dinner party recently that was hosted by a single woman that works for me. I had agreed to give a ride to another male dinner guest who is a bit younger than me.
After I picked up this other guy, I stopped by the flower shop to pick up something for the hostess' table and this other guy seemed to think it was a weird thing to do. It wasn't any sort of inappropriate flower arrangement, just something springlike and pleasant.
My mother would be very disappointed if I showed up to anyone's dinner party without flowers for the hostess. Am I the weird one?
By the way, the hostess didn't seem to think it strange at all. I always do this when invited to the home of married couples, with or without a date. Is it different if I'm without a date and the hostess is single?
whistleDick at July 20, 2011 4:50 AM
Fortunately this did not happen to me, but I know someone who tried this in Japan. It seems there is a particular flower you bring when there is a death in the family...
MarkD at July 20, 2011 5:05 AM
^chrysanthemums!^
Anyway, I have to say the book is a little too much but a single rose is kind of cute. A dozen roses is creepy. I'd say the only problem, though, is having to carry the rose around all night.
me123 at July 20, 2011 5:37 AM
Whistledick, your instinct was right. It's entirely different to bring a "hostess gift". That is simply polite. You're not presumably trying to court the hostess, just showing your appreciation for what she is giving to you (dinner, party, etc). It's a mutual exchange.
"(Parenthetically, if she liked the book, why didn't she have it already?"
I probably misphrased this. I think it was a book she had mentioned she wanted to read.
My friend is also of Asian descent, so it could be partly cultural. I don't know much about courting rituals in Asia, but this date was with an American woman, and I knew it would probably seem too eager to her...which would've been true because he WAS too eager.
It's not just the gesture but the attitude.
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 5:52 AM
flydye has a point. It's weird that people are so hard on guys for making harmless mistakes like this.
Men are really in a no win situation when it comes to dating because women are often so eager to prove their worth by finding some reason to reject them. And women lie about what they want. They actually resent it when men demonstrate the same behaviors that they claim to find attractive. So some poor schmuck who thinks he's behaving appropriately ends up being humiliated for making the effort.
The strange thing that you learn about women is that they actually prefer to be treated poorly. That's what they find attractive, but they either don't realize it or won't admit it.
jj at July 20, 2011 6:37 AM
...my now husband showed up on our second date with a rose (it was our first dinner date) and I was touched by the gesture. A dozen roses would have been too much, though. And we'd already met and had a great intro/lunch date and the chemistry part had been established.
other Beth at July 20, 2011 6:38 AM
Well, there's the problem right there, lovelysoul. He should have kept the book and left his attitude behind. Problem solved!
So essentially that tells me he could have brought nothing and she still wouldn't have accepted him.
That isn't on him.
He is who he is. She accepts his attitude, book and rose or she doesn't. It is fully as appropriate as when a guy ditches a date because of age or a couple extra pounds. But somehow the former is acceptable to girls but the later is shallow.
Okay.
flydye at July 20, 2011 6:41 AM
My now husband and I went on our second date a few days before Christmas and he brought me a small wooden bowl he had made. I thought it was sweet and also proved the "manly" hobby I had been impressed with during our on-line conversations.
I think those who have suggested it depends how much the women already likes the guy have it right, so its a risky move if the man isn't reading the signs right. He admitted that he wasn't sure how it would go over but in our case it worked as I was ready to jump him as soon as it seemed appropriate.
Flowers or a bottle of wine for a hostess, always. I'm in my mid-40's though so could be generational.
Niki at July 20, 2011 6:55 AM
Odd - I used to show up with a single carnation or a single rose on a first or second date. I didn't give it any thought. It was cheap and a gesture that was supposed to say, "I think you're worth the extra effort of stopping by the flower shop for five minutes on my way here."
I won't do it any more.
Funny thing happened one time. I had a date on February 15, and two dozen roses was cheaper than a single longstem. They'd seriously over-bought for valentine's day, and were dumping. I knew that more than one flower was over the top for the young lady I was cultivating, so she got one. Then the next day, my Mom got six. And eighteen random girls I kinda knew around the office each got one.
They probably all think I'm creepy now.
Oh well.
Bill McNutt at July 20, 2011 6:56 AM
Q.E.D.
Do you have any idea how much effort goes into making a wooden bowl? A hell of a lot more then goes into spending three minutes in a Barnes and Noble line with a $8.99 book.
flydye at July 20, 2011 6:59 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2375634">comment from Bill McNuttOn Valentine's Day, a single rose for a girl probably isn't a bad idea because it's about the day. Your Mom isn't going to think you're creepy for getting her flowers. And the eighteen girls, unless they think you're trying to hit on them, will just think you're a nice guy.
Bill, do you really not understand what I wrote here?
Also, sorry, but carnations are not very attractive and they're a kind of flower people wear when they're speaking at the Main Street Fair or a funeral. They're to be avoided as a flower to give to women.
Amy Alkon at July 20, 2011 7:24 AM
"So essentially that tells me he could have brought nothing and she still wouldn't have accepted him."
That's not necessarily true. He has a girlfriend now, and honestly, I can't remember if this was his first date with her or not.
True, if a woman is into you already, a gift is not likely to ruin it, and likewise, if you just aren't her type, not bringing a gift isn't going to help.
But, I know from personal experience when I was dating, that there were guys I was quite attracted to at first who ruined it by coming across as too strong or emotionally needy.
There were guys who acted as if I was their girlfriend after only a couple of dates, and bringing a gift, epsecially a personal one, tends to send that message too...like he thinks you're already a couple.
A single rose or carnation isn't that bad, but what my friend did, by buying the book, was show that he was paying really close attention to what she said - which is absolutely the behavior women want in a boyfriend - but by demonstrating this too soon, it makes a guy seem like he is already jumping ahead to that point.
Making the extra effort to find a personal gift also suggests he doesn't have many other things going on in his life, and that's not attractive to either gender. It's rather the same advice for women to be more appealing to a guy - stay busy, don't answer every call, don't constantly text or email him. In short, don't send out that needy/ desperation vibe because guys like a little bit of chase.
I mean, honestly, if you had one phone call with a woman before a first date, and casually mentioned that your feet were cold, and she shows up with a handknitted pair of socks...well, you'd appreciate the thoughtfulness, but wouldn't you also think, "she's fixated way too much on me too soon"?
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 7:53 AM
I meant coming on too strong not as too strong.
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 7:55 AM
Yes. But buying a book is not knitting a pair of socks...or making a bowl. The investment isn't anywhere near the same.
"I took 5 minutes and $9 from my day to show I actually remembered what you said."
Horrible message to send. Bad man! No nookie for you!
I'm just funning a bit, but I hope you see my point. If he isn't 6'2", with chiseled abs and charisma oozing out of him, he has to find SOMEWAY to sell himself. Thoughtfulness is one of them
flydye at July 20, 2011 8:45 AM
I like the part about women being attracted to the alpha male. I have been working on my biceps, and I always fart more loudly than all the other males.
BOTU at July 20, 2011 8:55 AM
"Also, sorry, but carnations are not very attractive and they're a kind of flower people wear when they're speaking at the Main Street Fair or a funeral. They're to be avoided as a flower to give to women."
Unless she tells you that her favourite flowers are pink carnations and white daisies. I get my wife flowers about once a month and right now there is a bouquet including carnations and daisies on the table.
"...if I'm one of those women who requires a gift like that to go out with a guy. Because those women do exist, and they're partly to blame for men who give generic bribes/gifts. They're the ones who "train" men into giving big, showy gifts that show up at work, because if her friends/frenemies don't see exactly how much she's worth to him in goods and services, it doesn't really count."
This is absolutely the wrong way to approach a first date. If you want to bring a flower, bring a flower. If that's what you think is appropriate, then do it. You have to be yourself, not try to figure out what she wants and then be that. I'm not talking about going way over the top, but, as we've seen in the comments, some woman don't find a single flower creepy.
Steamer at July 20, 2011 8:56 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2375705">comment from flydyeIf he isn't 6'2", with chiseled abs and charisma oozing out of him, he has to find SOMEWAY to sell himself. Thoughtfulness is one of them
Thoughtfulness on a first date is opening the door for the woman.
You don't bring a gift for a stranger.
You also shouldn't be trying to "sell" yourself but just going out and seeing if you have a good time and they have a good time with you. Selling yourself -- with that as your position, you're coming in as a loser from the start.
Amy Alkon at July 20, 2011 9:15 AM
"I'm just funning a bit, but I hope you see my point. If he isn't 6'2", with chiseled abs and charisma oozing out of him, he has to find SOMEWAY to sell himself. Thoughtfulness is one of them"
Yes, but, for a first date, merely conversing about the topics she indicated were important is better than going out and buying the book. Though the book is not that expensive, shopping for it shows way too much thought and effort directed towards someone that you don't even know yet.
Flowers, too, though if a guy can really pull off the casual "I just walked by a flower shop on my way here and bought you a rose" delivery, it may work. But most guys who are really eager can't pull that off. The vibe will be more like, "I was up all last night thinking of how to impress you, and I've already imagined what our kids are going to look like!"
That's the thing. If you're feeling rather eager, you can figure that this will come across in countless ways throughout the date anyway. Adding a gift is merely going to put your neediness vibe over the top.
That's the unfairness of dating. When we don't particularly care about impressing someone, we generally do, yet when we're desperate to impress, that's when we usually blow it.
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 9:25 AM
My husband brought me a single red rose on our first date. I thought it was really sweet. It was even sweeter later, when he told me that he had actually bought a dozen because they only sold them in dozens at the florist, but he gave the rest to a friend because he didn't want to look nuts.
I continued dating him because he's great, and he would have been great without the rose, but it was a nice touch.
MonicaP at July 20, 2011 9:42 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2375734">comment from lovelysoulYes, but, for a first date, merely conversing about the topics she indicated were important is better than going out and buying the book. Though the book is not that expensive, shopping for it shows way too much thought and effort directed towards someone that you don't even know yet. Flowers, too, though if a guy can really pull off the casual "I just walked by a flower shop on my way here and bought you a rose" delivery, it may work. But most guys who are really eager can't pull that off.
Very well-put, lovelysoul.
And thanks again for the comment that you wrote into a question for me! Guys who pay attention to your answer just above and my answer to the question, and take the information in instead of arguing that they're doing the right thing, might improve their chances with the ladies.
There's a certain kind of guy who can break the rules and do things that would seem nuts and desperate if done by some other guy -- but if you aren't that guy, take the conservative approach. (That other guy does things for the right reasons -- because it's wild and fun, not because he wants to "sell" a woman on him. That was always the point -- you CAN'T bribe a woman into liking you; it works against you.)
Amy Alkon at July 20, 2011 9:49 AM
You're welcome, Amy. I loved your response.
There's a reason that coming off too needy is viewed badly by both genders - because it can be a sign of emotional instability. The fact that many of us choose to ignore this sign when the person is very attractive doesn't make it less valid.
A person meeting you for the first time has no idea whether you seem eager because you're just genuinely excited about them or because you've been rejected by so many others for being weird that you're now desperate for ANY girlfriend/boyfriend.
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 10:15 AM
I think the weirdness and neediness come across with or without gifts. But if a guy really wants to bring a present, it should be inexpensive and simple.
MonicaP at July 20, 2011 10:32 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2375826">comment from lovelysoulThanks, lovelysoul. People should also listen to your responses because they're right on.
Amy Alkon at July 20, 2011 11:15 AM
Not arguing that the guy isn't doing anything wrong (not so much). More arguing that you chicks are terribly inconsistant.
Mostly I'm reading "Yes it's terribly inappropriate to bring a $2 flower to a first date...but WHEE! when (insert name or number of relationship here) gave me this wildly inappropriate gift early in my relationship, I just swooned."
You are calling this a rule. We've had four girls make that out to be a lie...including our hostess.
So a rose becomes a huge psychological symbol of the totality of a man's inherent neediness? That is a lot of weight to put on a rose.
flydye at July 20, 2011 12:03 PM
There are grammar books written that if you read them, you can never write again. So many rules!
Even a rousing sentence such as, "Let's show 'em what we're made of," is improper grammar.
So it is with these endless "rules" devised by Amy Alkon and all the other old ninnies ruling the dating roost (at least nine).
Can't bring a flower on a first date--unless you are the type who can pull it off? This is a rule? I can remember when bringing flowers was almost standard.
A book? Maybe a little forward--but so what?
Guys: Just be yourself. Do what you want to do.
Girls: Do what you want to. You can ask the guy out, you can call him and say you have two tix to the Mets game, please won't you come with me? (You'll get a marriage proposal by the seventh inning with that one, btw).
It's a date, cricky-almighty, a date. One date. It won't be televised on national TV.
BOTU at July 20, 2011 12:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2376091">comment from BOTUEven a rousing sentence such as, "Let's show 'em what we're made of," is improper grammar.
"If proper usage gets in the way it may have to go."--Elmore Leonard
There are people who can break the rules. I choose to break them sometimes -- quite knowingly, usually -- because I'm not 20 and I don't care whether people think I worship at the altar of Strunk & White. I sure don't.
I'll throw over good grammar and proper syntax in a second -- but believe me, you don't see me using "that" instead of "who." It's about being funny and being readable and being colloquial.
Also, I have THE best copyeditor now that I've ever had. (SuperDave.) We go over my column word by word and talk about where I'm going to break the rules and where I should go with them.
As far as the gift-giving thing goes, there ARE guys who can give some present on the first date without seeming desperate, but it's usually a highly risky tactic. Gregg exudes non-neediness. If anything, he exudes "I'd like to be left alone." Still, when we met, he bought me an orange crush. He didn't take me through the Farmer's Market and buy me trinkets. Only when you have some sort of a relationship with a woman, when she's showing interest in you and you seem to have a little something going on, should you buy her something, and even then, keep it small.
Amy Alkon at July 20, 2011 12:59 PM
You have to be yourself, not try to figure out what she wants and then be that.
Not what I was saying. The point is to look at why you're bringing a gift in the first place. Is it because you think you have to or because it's something simple and you're pretty certain she'll like it? If you'll feel odd not showing up with a gift, that's good reason to examine your motives. And I'm not saying those motives are always about desperation and neediness, just that they can come across that way to someone you don't know very well, i.e. a first date. I reiterate, you should be pretty sure of how the gift will be received before you give, and that's true of anyone and any gift. If you don't know, wait to give anything until you know her better.
NumberSix at July 20, 2011 1:10 PM
Of course, there are guys who can break this rule, but they are usually the guys who don't feel the need to bring anything to a date. They're confident that their personality and looks will be enough, and, if not, they'll move on.
The guys who do this out of neediness tend to do it with everyone. It isn't a spontaneous, romantic gesture, based on a real sense of connection with a particular woman. It is, as Amy correctly characterizes, a kind of bribe. "Please like me," it says. "Look how thoughtful I am!"
The message this sends is that they aren't enough by themselves. Of course, their date ultimately gets to decide this anyway, and she may, in fact, find his insecurity sweet. Some women respond better to socially awkward guys than others do.
So, there are many times where this won't end up badly, but most likely, it isn't because of the gift, but because of the date.
All we're saying is that if an insecure demeanor isn't what you're going for, it's best to nix the gifts at first. Like wearing a speedo, very few guys can pull it off, so, when in doubt, skip it.
lovelysoul at July 20, 2011 1:45 PM
I think getting her the book is really sweet and shows he was listening, but I'd hold it for a second or third date (or just give it to her at the end of the night when you're dropping her off, or something - like, oh, I almost forgot, this is for you since we talked about it yadda yadda).
Deep-six the rose. I know we're supposed to go all weak-kneed at getting flowers, but roses on the first date scream insecurity and even worse IMHO, unoriginality.
Choika at July 20, 2011 1:51 PM
@Whistledick - I grew up in Europe, and you never went to someone's house for a dinner or whatever without a hostess gift - usually a box of chocolates or a bouquet of flowers. Seriously, do this and send thank-you cards, and everyone will think you're the second coming or something. It's pretty sad that little gestures of politesse have gone the way of the dodo.
Choika at July 20, 2011 1:54 PM
http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497/
interesting take on Strunk & White
BOTU at July 20, 2011 2:19 PM
In the defense of we "inconsistent chicks", inappropriate gift giving is usually coupled with other actions that scream "run bitch, run!".
The most recent date I went on, the guy tried to gift me his pool cue. Weird.
The date began with his inappropriate and bizarre questions, and ended with his crazy attempt to start a bar fight. My point being, the poor schmuck didn't just make one faux pas of the attempted gift-giving. He was a walking minefield of dating disasters.
In Flydye's defense, the business of dating is pretty complex. Shortly after I met my now ex-husband, he bought me a plane ticket to visit him, and I didn't think it was strange at all. And I totally would've slept with him on the second date. Oh wait. I did.
Meloni at July 20, 2011 2:20 PM
First date, I have had quite a few first dates since my divorce. I have had two men bring a flower, one brought a peach colored rose and the other brought a lily. I thought nothing more of it than they had made a little extra effort. I liked it but did not expect it.
I do admit if it had been more I might have wondered why in the world they would do such a thing before they got to know me.
The only other time I got a present before the first date it was a dozen roses of all colors and it was from an old friend, in the note he asked if I wanted to try dating. We had been friends for years. We were both a little nervous. I felt it was appropriate send the roses because he was signaling he wanted a big change in our relationship. He wanted to be sure I understood his intentions! We were both game to try, since we both got along so well but we had spent too many years in the friend zone.
Usually I would prefer for a man to get to know me before doing more than buying drinks or dinner.
But then I am not a woman who requires gifts except a small thoughtful gift at Christmas and my birthday.
Flowers are a wonderful surprise when they come. However I listen when a man talks and I will come up with a gift of my own to him from time to time.
Worthit at July 20, 2011 8:43 PM
roses on the first date scream insecurity and even worse IMHO, unoriginality.
I think, if a guy is going to give a gift on the first date, it absolutely should be unoriginal. He doesn't know her well enough to take the risk of being original. I mean, what if she doesn't like that ferret he had stuffed and mounted for her? Also, with something like a flower, he can claim he was walking past a florist and thought of her. The mounted ferret, not so much.
While roses CAN be a sign of insecurity, there are usually other signs. Sometimes it's just a sign of thoughtfulness.
MonicaP at July 21, 2011 6:08 AM
Well, he could always say "I was mounting this ferret and I thought of you"...
Ltw at July 21, 2011 7:20 AM
A bit late, but I thought I'd touch on the Asian thing for a bit...
@lovelysoul, your friend's attitude depends a lot on where he was raised. If he was raised in Asia and not the US, then a rose would definitely be acceptable for a first date. I only lived in Korea until I was 15 (and therefore have no experience in Asian dating), but I used to see many couples out and about where the girl was holding a single rose or even a small bouquet of flowers.
It may also be that he was especially eager to please because Asian women tend to have a "shrinking violet"-type attitude towards dating. I've seen this in Korean women, and noticed a similar attitude in Chinese and Japanese movies and TV shows, so I assume it's an Asian thing, and not just a Korean thing. Asian women expect men to do all the pursuing, while they themselves are expected to not be flirtatious or forward in any way. The idea is that, if the guy only has pure intentions, then he will aggressively pursue the woman with no expectations of getting anything in return. That way, the woman can rest assured that he isn't just trying to get her into bed (virginity being much more important in Asia than it is here in the US) and seriously consider him. Once they're actually dating, a bit of a flirty attitude is okay.
As an example, my brother corresponded by email for a while with a girl in Korea. He wrote her long, chatty emails about himself and how he was doing, and asked her about herself and what she did. No response for 2-3 weeks, then a short email saying she was doing good, but answering none of his questions. He wrote her another long email, she again waited a week or two before responding with a short email. This went on for a few months until he finally gave up on her. Being American, he simply thought she wasn't interested in him and moved on. Turned out she was expecting him to try harder to communicate with her, by telephoning her or even trying to visit her, to prove that he was truly into her.
Perhaps it's because I was raised mostly in the US, but I've always found this approach rather silly and almost stalker-ish in approach, myself. :P
Jina at July 21, 2011 9:24 AM
Thanks, Jina. He was raised in the US, though his parents weren't. His background seems quite formal, which I'm sure was a part of it.
But, even though he is of Asian descent, my friend has never been attracted to Asian women. He actually found tall, light-haired/eyed women more appealing, especially redheads (Amy would've been his dreamgirl!). That was quite a drawback for him while dating, as few of those types seem to desire Asian men, so I think he felt he had to work harder for his dates to like him, as he wasn't typically their "type."
I felt sorry for him because you can't help but like what you like, yet the odds were against him. Most of the women he desired were looking for tall, caucasion men.
lovelysoul at July 21, 2011 10:30 AM
Flowers for me have to have roots and be in a pot. Otherwise, forget it. Not everyone is into arranging the things in a vase and then cleaning up the ongoing resultant debris. I just prefer my flowers alive and in the garden.
But weighing in on the gift giving on 1st dates: IMHO, no matter how small the gift, it makes the guy look a tad desperate. And anyway, how does he know what she likes? It just makes for an uneven playing field, with the woman then feeling like she owes him something. Not a good dynamic. Give of yourself, your time, and your smile on 1st dates; that should suffice. Only gold-diggers want more.
Bluejean Baby at July 21, 2011 8:18 PM
I think what some guys are kind of forgetting here is that there's a sort of chronological order in two people dating and getting to know eachother better and emotionally investing themselves in the relationship. Linear progression. You meet, you talk about general things, you talk about more intimate things, you establish mutual interest, etc etc. Closeness/intimacy grows from 0 up to (whereever) over a period of time
What's important is that you both want to be around the same stage. If partner A is at stage 1 and the other brings a gift that (to partner A) is more of a stage 5 thing, then that can be startling or offputting. If partner A is already crazy about B (despite it being early days) then that gift is probably going to go over quite well.
The important thing is that you want to stay synchronised. If one partner seems to skip way ahead, that's probably going to jar the relationship.
Anne de Vries at July 22, 2011 5:36 AM
Flydye sounds very angry and resentful. The kind who's not gay, but doesn't really like women either.
Sibyl at July 23, 2011 6:21 AM
"What's important is that you both want to be around the same stage. If partner A is at stage 1 and the other brings a gift that (to partner A) is more of a stage 5 thing, then that can be startling or offputting. If partner A is already crazy about B (despite it being early days) then that gift is probably going to go over quite well.
The important thing is that you want to stay synchronised. If one partner seems to skip way ahead, that's probably going to jar the relationship. "
Probably the clearest way of expressing what I *think* the women here have been trying to say (which has, to be fair to people like Flydye, basically come across as "Don't give small gifts because they make you look crazy and women are justified in imagining the most off-putting interpretation . . . unless giving a gift was the right thing to do, in which case you should keep it small and low-pressure. Except when you shouldn't, in which case, go big or go home."
So, good advice. However, I have two alternative ideas that I think could solve the whole dilemma:
1. Bring a dozen roses. Do not mention the roses. If she reaches for them or asks about them, sheepishly tell her, "OH! You thought. . .? No, I'm sorry, I brought these for me. We could stop at the florist if you want to pick up some of your own, though."
Carry your bouquet for the rest of the date. In this way, you keep her off-balance and she can never accuse you of being predictable.
2. Somebody above said flowers belong in the garden . . . this is good thinking. Consider bringing a couple of rose bushes, maybe some evergreen shrubbery or hostas if the climate is right, or possibly a few small fruit trees. The night BEFORE your first date, wait until all the lights have been out in her house for at least an hour and then quietly plant her first-date gifts in a tasteful landscape arrangement on her property. Avoid the use of stone or gravel; you'll inevitably wake her up with that and ruin the surprise.
When she wakes up in the morning and sees what you've done, I guarantee she will spend the whole day thinking about you.
Don Gwinn at July 24, 2011 8:38 AM
"Probably the clearest way of expressing what I *think* the women here have been trying to say (which has, to be fair to people like Flydye, basically come across as "Don't give small gifts because they make you look crazy and women are justified in imagining the most off-putting interpretation . . . unless giving a gift was the right thing to do, in which case you should keep it small and low-pressure. Except when you shouldn't, in which case, go big or go home."
lol. I enjoyed your post, Don. But I don't think any woman here has said "go big" with a first date gift. Any woman who would expect a piece of jewelry, or some other expensive gift, on a first date is obviously a gold digger.
So, yes, that might work in her case, and, in fact, a small gift may also work in many cases. We're theorizing about countless dates, with countless women, so it's impossible to predict which ones may find a flower charming and which ones may find it a bit over the top.
All we're saying is that showing up on a first date WITHOUT a gift never seems needy or off-putting, so that is your safest bet...especially if you are a needy type, and therefore tempted to bring a gift to make her like you even more, DON'T do it because it will merely add to that impression.
Some men can get away with bringing a small gift because they don't seem needy or desperate, just as some women can wear really revealing outfits on a first date and won't be taken for a slut...but it isn't advisable because your date's first impression of you is (presumably) important, so the wisest thing to do is not take chances.
Arriving with no gift is perfectly acceptable in every instance.
lovelysoul at July 24, 2011 9:20 AM
I think Don Gwinn might really be BOTU, but then, there was no mention of sex or anything disgusting, so, maybe not. But i LMAO at Don's flowers with roots impromptu comedy routine. What a laff.
I've said it before, i'll say it again, the guy should show up for the 1st date showered, smelling and looking clean and neat, and give of himself, his time, his smile. This should suffice for a 1st date. More dates might be the result if he behaves himself and doesn't go BOTU on her.
Bluejean Baby at July 24, 2011 8:43 PM
Roses ... some of us just aren't into them. For instance, me. An immediate family member's funeral was on Valentine's Day, (i was a teenager then) and thereafter, i just can't stand Valentine's Day, but put up with card and flower store shenanigans for the greater good.
Also, my ex stalked me for a length of time after we broke up, wouldn't leave me alone, and he continually placed long-stem roses at my front door ... it was just creepy. One time he sent me a dozen roses at work, which immediately got distributed among the ladies i worked with. They liked it; i was just glad to get rid of the roses.
If a 1st date showed up at my door with a dozen roses, i don't know what i'd do. Probably cry. How's that for starting off a 1st date? Like i said, how does he know what she likes / doesn't like? Don't automatically assume that all women love roses.
Bluejean Baby at July 24, 2011 8:52 PM
Remember gentlemen. While dating (until it is quite serious) you should not give gifts. However, once in a relationship you should reverse your behavior and give gifts.
I guess it is true...women marry expecting that the man will totally change...
The Former Banker at July 24, 2011 11:41 PM
No, it's not that you shouldn't give gifts while dating, it's that you shouldn't give gifts until you know the person will like the gift. Which is also true once you're in a relationship. I don't want generic "supposed to" gifts then, either. That still screams "I'm supposed to get you something, so here's something romcoms say women like! It's not that I pay attention, it's how much I spend that matters!"
NumberSix at July 25, 2011 12:49 AM
Exactly, NumberSix. It's the equivalent of giving a fruitcake for Christmas. I'm sure there's probably some people who like them, but most view it as a gift that requires no thought about what the recipent would actually enjoy.
As Bluejean so eloquently demonstrates, not every woman loves roses, or flowers at all.
lovelysoul at July 25, 2011 4:24 AM
I can't imagine thinking badly of a guy because he brought a small, harmless present like a flower, even if it's a flower I don't like. However, this might be useful for men. If your date looks down on you for bringing her a flower...
I don't see much difference between a small gift like that or paying for dinner. Paying for dinner is also a gift, in a way, and there's no guarantee I'm going to like the place unless I picked it myself.
MonicaP at July 25, 2011 10:30 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2381411">comment from MonicaPFirst dates shouldn't be dinner. They should be cheap, short, and local. They should be about getting to know you, not getting to know what kind of limit you have on your American Express card.
If you wouldn't walk up to a stranger on the street (one not in rags) and buy him dinner, don't do it for a woman who's a veritable stranger.
Amy Alkon at July 25, 2011 10:37 AM
Monica, it's not about looking down on a guy for bringing you something, it's the motives behind the bringing you something. I'm not a red rose kind of person, but if a guy showed up with one I wouldn't necessarily think the things I mentioned earlier. A sweet "It's pretty and I thought of you" versus a silent "Women like roses, right?" Attitude does matter, which is why it's so hard to set a "rule" for gift-giving, which is why some of us think it's better not to give anything so early in a relationship: it's tricky if you do give something and much less tricky if you don't. It's a "when in doubt" rule: if you don't know that she'll like the gift, why give it? I don't want a guy to feel like he has to show up with something to go out with me, an attitude I try very hard to get across subtly. A shower, a smile and conscientious behavior toward me and anyone we encounter is plenty. That should make it easier for guys to weed out women who expect gifts/payment.
This conversation (from my point of view, anyway) isn't really about how to best please a woman, it's about starting the guy off on the best possible foot so he doesn't accidentally end up with someone who demands flowers every three days or a woman who thinks he's needy.
NumberSix at July 25, 2011 8:54 PM
Re: Likewise, giving gifts too early in dating "reeks of desperation," Saad said.
What a nonsense!!!
Giving a woman a rose means that the man does not approach her as he would a prostitute.
If a woman over-interprets this simple, thousand years old sign as a desperation, she is better to be avoided as a feminist trash.
Mere Mortal at July 26, 2011 3:15 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2383173">comment from Mere MortalGiving a woman a rose means that the man does not approach her as he would a prostitute. If a woman over-interprets this simple, thousand years old sign as a desperation, she is better to be avoided as a feminist trash.
Giving a rose to a stranger reeks of desperation, or autothink: this is what you do for a chick.
The "feminist trash" sniveling at the end bespeaks a man who does too much, too soon, out of desperation. Nice try, but you lose, kitten!
Women don't want losers, and a guy who sells himself with a flower to a stranger before he even knows whether he likes her risks projecting loserhood.
Amy Alkon at July 26, 2011 6:13 PM
"a rose means that the man does not approach her as he would a prostitute."
Mere Mortal's posts always sound to me like something Borat would write.
lovelysoul at July 26, 2011 6:21 PM
Re: Women don't want losers,...
This sniveling about losers betrays a goddess who lacks sound arguments.
A woman who chases success is a variety of a gold-digger, for there is no man who is a winner all the time and never a loser. As Bob Dylan said,
"For the loser now will be later to win ..."
I wish the Goddess of girly advices would get out of the ghetto she is living in for so long and experience the variety of human culture.
Mere Mortal at July 26, 2011 6:53 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/07/the-shopping-ca.html#comment-2383248">comment from lovelysoulMere Mortal's posts always sound to me like something Borat would write.
Hah. Love that.
Amy Alkon at July 26, 2011 6:58 PM
I adore flowers of all kinds--wild and cultivated--especially roses, the smellier the better. So I grow them, I don't expect people to bring them to me. There's a weirdness that colours the whole first date when someone brings gifts. I couldn't put my finger on it before, but your explanation makes sense to me, Amy.
I had a first date once where the guy left flowers in his trunk and pulled them out as we were going to our respective cars at the end. He told me he had had to decide if I was worthy of them first. Wow! SO glad I passed muster. Straight into the garbage, and there sure wasn't a second date!
Kathy at July 30, 2011 9:39 PM
Reading through these remarks, I'm looking for the one underlying issue with gift-giving and all it represents: VALUE. When a man (or woman) projects HIGH VALUE, that person becomes attractive. Certain behaviours that are typical for "Nice Guys" attempt to project High Value, but in a woman's mind, they translate to LOW VALUE. Gifts and flowers are SUPPLICATING, which is Low Value. He fails!
If he offers her a drink at a bar, he FAILS! If she asks him for a drink, and he complies, he FAILS! If she asks him for a drink, and he makes her dance with him first, he PASSES. If she asks him for a drink, and he makes her buy one for him instead, he is COSMIC.
Jefe at September 8, 2011 8:57 PM
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