> I want to say something, but what?

"How about a 3 way?"

Four words: time for a hotel.

Wondering why LW is friends with this woman. They did make plans (if unspecified) to catch up, so why doesn't her "friend" tell tall-dark-and-hands to take a night off, or two?

Surely, their relationship can survive a day apart from each other. Personally, I'd go to a hotel. Better to spend the time alone than with her uncouth friend and boyfriend.

Oh, ugh. I have a friend who pulls stuff like this whenever she gets a boyfriend - all of a sudden, it's like he's surgically stitched to her side, she brings him to every event (even girls' night out kind of stuff), and basically reorganizes her entire life according to his whims. We've been friends for a long time but I'm about ready to ditch the friendship because I'm sick of watching her repeat this unhealthy cycle over and oooover.

I agree with Patrick. I don't think this is merely awkward. It seems to me LW's friend is being kind of mean to her, devouring her boyfriend as she looks on. What's she trying to say, "Look at what I've got and you don't?"

Or is she, as Choika suggests, catering to the boyfriend's schedule and desires, going along with disrupting the plans she made with the LW?

the extreme PDA?

It's her fucking apartment, how is that PDA?

Moreover, if LW doesn't know what to say, they aren't friends, but acquaintances. Friends say shit like "get a room."

going along with disrupting the plans she made with the LW?

I don't see that; taken at face value, the visit is going fine except for the PRIVATE displays of affection, unless the living room is suddenly public space.

"Mind if I tweet this?" I love it! A little shame would go a long way here. This is why it is always best to go to a hotel and have your local friends meet you at the hotel bar. That way everyone is on their best behavior. Nothing you can do about it now LW. The next time you visit make alternate plans and when she asks why tell her you felt like you were intruding on her personal life and you don't want to wear out your welcome.

FWIW, that behavior was piggish and that couple ought to be ashamed of themselves. It grosses me out just thinking about it.

Hey Joe, remind me not to accept any dinner invitations to your house. God only knows what private behaviors you would put on display for your guests to see. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "dinner and a show".

Since you have no sense of what boundaries are or even just plain old good manners, let me explain it to you. When you invite someone to your home, you do what you reasonably can to provide for their comfort. This usually mean curtailing private stuff like farting, nose picking, and dry humping on the couch. These things tend to make guests uneasy and should be avoided while guests are present. If you just can't go a day without climbing all over each other, then don't invite someone to stay at your home. The LW had every reason to be disgusted and upset. She was put in awkward position by these two Neanderthals. Their "private" behavior became public when they invited her in to see the show. Wow! I never thought I would have to explain that to another adult.

Yes, the friend was tacky (though how a couple kissing grosses people out still puzzles me. I have a sister-in-law who claims to be "grossed out" if a teen couple on TV kiss on the cheek.)

I see the LW as being quite narcissistic. She is demanding that she be the focus of attention. Her friend is expected to drop everything and focus on the LW. Heaven forbid your friend actually have a life of her own.

My mother does this. She whirls into town and expects everyone to adjust their schedules to her desires. Without any consultation, she makes reservations, tells you what time she's coming over and even what to cook her for dinner.

(Even if I've arranged a trip ahead of time, I don't expect the people I visit to change everything for me. That's absurd. I work around their schedule. And if they want to make out on the couch, I can put up with it or leave.)

Don't be so fucking self-righteous Sheep Mommy.

My comments were limited to the context of the letter and only that context. Was the friend tacky? Yes, but where is the line? Would it have been okay to hold hands, kiss for 1 second, 2 seconds? Snuggle?

Or is the attitude that when a person has guests over, they must become a ascetic? They must drop everything and cater entirely to the whims of the guest.

What to say? Leave the room when they do things you don't feel comfortable with. When she notices you are gone suggest,'let's have a girls night out'.
Well said Sheep mommy.

Uhhhh, I would think spending time with your friend who is visiting for a finite time and whom you don't see very often versus spending time with a boyfriend you can see any time would be sort of a no-brainer?

The reason it really irritates me that my friend does this is she moved about an hour away in a high-traffic metropolitan area, we both work long and/or multiple jobs, so I don't see her very often, and yeah, it does really irritate me that she'll either drag the boyfriend along with her on the rare occasion that I do get to see her, or reschedule things multiple times and inconvenience all of her friends to accommodate his schedule, even though he lives really close to her. Case in point, she recently rescheduled a party she was going to throw for about fifteen people, because...he asked her to. Unsurprisingly everyone bailed, because why bother clearing your schedule if his is the one that's the most important?

Having your boyfriend over every freaking night your friend is visiting is rude, and definitely says that the boyfriend is more important than the friend. I'd consider re-evaluating this friendship, and if it's part of a bigger pattern, maybe mention to the friend that it's really bizarre that she can't pry herself off of this guy's face long enough to catch up with a friend.

Sheep mommy wrote: If you just can't go a day without climbing all over each other, then don't invite someone to stay at your home.

THIS. Exactly. My boyfriend and I just had one of my close friends stay at our place. We were affectionate with each other, sure. But, really, a few days of keeping it PG isn't THAT hard for adults with manners and social skills.

Joe wrote
Or is the attitude that when a person has guests over, they must become a ascetic? They must drop everything and cater entirely to the whims of the guest.

Well, no, but come on. Do you tidy up when you know in advance a guest is coming over? I do -- nothing crazy, but I make sure they have clean sheets and towels and that our dirty laundry isn't piled on the guest futon they'll be sleeping on. I also make sure I don't walk around in my underwear. I don't drop everything, though. I keep my prior social engagements, go to class, go to work, etc, and expect the guests to entertain themselves to a certain extent.

So, yes, there is some effort involved in having an overnight guest. You tidy up your home a bit, and you tidy up your behavior as well. There is no "line" as to what's appropriate for everyone, but lying down on top of each other and having long make-out sessions, a reasonable adult would think, is pretty awkward.

I don't see that; taken at face value, the visit is going fine except for the PRIVATE displays of affection, unless the living room is suddenly public space.

Yes, in the context of a home, the living room is public space. Bedrooms? Private space. Bathrooms? Private during use, but most homes have a private bath or two, and a public washroom -- you know, the half bath off the front hall or the kitchen, rather than the master bathroom that you have to go through the bedroom to get to, and that has all your grooming products sitting out.

Living room? Public space, ie, the place you invite people into. Dining room? Likewise. Kitchen? Public. Den or study? Can go either way; for some people this is the TV room, for others it's intensely private.

This hostess has invited a friend into her home, and in that context it is incredibly rude to be doing stuff in the group living area that makes her guest uncomfortable. The guest should not have to hole up in the guest room to avoid being treated to a live sex show. Nor is it acceptable for a hostess to ignore her guest. It's rude-rude-rude.

Okay Joe. Let me try to explain this again.

First of all, I am not a prude. Did you read the letter? What LW witnessed went beyond casual, light kisses. To my knowledge, (and Amy can back this up) there is never a social situation in which it considered okay to lay on top of someone and stick your tongue down their throat while your hands go wandering. Forgive me, but I think amateur porn sucks and I don’t wish to be held captive to it.

Secondly, you assume this girl had somewhere else to go. Maybe, she was sleeping on the fold away bed in the couch. As a guest, she certainly did not have a lot of options and thus was a captive audience to her “friend’s” show. I think we can reasonably take her word for it that her options were limited.

Finally, yes unfortunately when you have guest you do in fact give up some portion of your liberty. If you normally walk through your house nude that is great and you should feel free to do so. But, when you invite someone else over to stay with you, you can’t do that. I would hope that I don’t have to explain why. What I can’t understand is why you don’t see how these situations are related.

The girl didn’t complain that her friend’s boyfriend came over, she complained about the live sex show that took place on the couch. If she had merely complained about his presence, I would agree with you, but this went beyond his mere presence. I suspect you are hung up on the P in the PDA thing and have failed to understand, that when you invite people into your home, it is no longer a private space. A third party most definitely changes it from private to public and your behavior much change to accommodate those guests. That is why guests are such a pain the ass in the first place. Duh.

Sheepmommy, I think you are confusing Joe and JoeJ (aka me) we are two different people, who disagree a lot on this issue.

Sorry Joe J! My comments are meant for Joe. I think he has just personalized this letter too much. It strikes a chord with him and he can't distance his experience from that of the LW. I hope he eventually see the difference.

Joe, you can't be this blind. Its just not possible. You're a grown man asking, "where's the line?"

Did you grow up in a barn?

Fine, here it is: If you'd see it in a porno, don't do it in front of guests.

If you'd expect to see it censored on daytime cable viewing, don't do it in front of guests.

If you'd think "ewww" if you saw two hideous people doing it...don't do it in front of guests.

If you worry about someone getting upset over handholding and a kiss on the cheek, don't HAVE them as guests.

Does that clarify for you you classless boor?

Are these people exhibitionists, hoping their guest will watch or even join in? I'm not being facetious. Some people pursue this kink awkwardly.

Where are people coming up with porno from a short description in a letter?

I haven't personalized anything; I just find the leaps bizarre.

"They share long, passionate kisses and lie on top of each other and make out while we're all watching TV."

They weren't fucking. They weren't dry humping. They were making out. Tacky, yes, but porn? Neandertal behavior? "A live sex show." Talk about creating straw men and knocking them down. Or do you people just have filthy minds? Seriously. How did this sentence turn into pornographic acts?

"If you'd expect to see it censored on daytime cable viewing, don't do it in front of guests."

What was stated wouldn't be censored on TV, so why even bring that up as an argument?

And why the absurd psychoanalysis? I read the letter at face value and quoted part of it. Where is the vile behavior? Again, it was tacky; I said so.

And once again; why would LW even ask this? If the host is a friend, she says "Hey, get a room." Or some such thing. Why is this suddenly some delicate matter that she must tip-toe around?

Making Out - To engage in kissing and caressing; neck.

That is the common definition and what my comments were based on. If it was more, the the LW should have said so. If the LW did say more, then Amy should clarify.

The LW didn't say petting, fucking, blow jobs, fingering, etc. She said "Making out."

My take on the sitch...

LW wasn't actually welcome and this was the host's way of saying so.

I'd be tempted to do the same...although at this point in my life I'd flat out say no.

Since this was a business trip the LW had to have invited herself over in some form or fashion, whether by hinting or outright "hey, I'm staying with you."

So she doesn't get to complain when life goes on.

So she doesn't get to complain when life goes on.

I think she does. If the host didn't want here there, then she should have said so. By agreeing to have her over, she agreed to all the duties of a host.

Also, there's no evidence this woman forced her way in. It could have gone like this:

LW: I have a business trip in a few weeks and I'll be in town. We should meet up.
Horny Friend: Oooh! Stay with me! It'll be fun!

The line is different for everyone, but most people would be uncomfortable with being forced to watch a make-out session.

It looks like Joe Googled the definition of "make out," and he conveniently chose the sixth definition from dictionary.com to cite here: "to engage in kissing and caressing; neck." The seventh definition is "to have sexual intercourse."

Most people recognize "make out" as a zone between a simple kiss and having sex.

That is an interesting debate technique you have Joe. Stake out an untenable argument and then when confronted with reality, double down on it. Perhaps you are the guy in that LW is complaining about or maybe you are the plate licker from the blog on Monday...
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2012/06/12/oink_oink_oink.html#comments

Either way, you are defending the indefensible.

You suggest that I am reading into the letter and yet you are the one who turned the LW into your mother. To quote you: “I see the LW as being quite narcissistic. She is demanding that she be the focus of attention. Her friend is expected to drop everything and focus on the LW. Heaven forbid that her friend have a life of her own. My mother does this.” You then continue with a list of grievances against your mother that is not relevant here. Please point out for me where in the letter the girl whines about not being the focus of attention or wanting her friend to “drop everything” for her. I didn’t see her pathological need to hijack her friend’s life like you did. What I did see, was someone who was confused as to why a friend would invite her stay in her home and visit with her and then would precede to ignore her and not just ignore her, but be grossly inappropriate in front of her.

This leads to your final argument that LW barged into this person’s life uninvited. Umm, again, where did you get that? I know your mom does it, but where does it say that the LW did this? Again, this is called projection and that is what you are doing. It really is not inconceivable that this girl invited the LW with all intentions of hanging out with her, but her boyfriend didn’t want to let go of his routine. In this case, the boyfriend seems like the needy attention whore to me. Weak girls give into this pressure all the time. They find a guy who thinks “making out” in front of guests is cool and good way to mark his territory and then allow themselves to be used.

I think Robert hit the nail on the head with you earlier. You are crass and a boor and now you are boring me.

Oh and BTW, The Urban Dictionary defines making out has french kissing and groping.

oops...should be proceed not precede...

My core argument has always been based on the what LW stated in her letter:

"They share long, passionate kisses and lie on top of each other and make out while we're all watching TV."

Her statement that they were kissing indicates that my definition is appropriate. Moreover, nobody uses "making out" when they mean sexual intercourse.

Many here either deliberately thought the worse or didn't read the original letter and were simply responding to other comments.

My second argument was that the LW had expectations which did not match the expectations of her friend. To me, she clearly believed that her visit meant much more; that her friend would redirect her attention toward her [the LW.] I used the example of my mother because it illustrated my point. Even taking that away, my point still stands; there is a clear difference of how each person perceives their friendship.

It seems,Sheep Mommy that you are the one doubling down and changing your arguments. You misread the original comments, perceived mine the most perverted possible light and now are resorting to absurd arguments to defend your absurd and perverse points.

there is a clear difference of how each person perceives their friendship.

Not making out in front of your guest isn't a sign of how strong your friendship is. It's a sign of not being disgusting. I wouldn't make out in front of vague acquaintance in my home, let alone a friend.

Drop the ad hominem attacks. You don't like my arguments, fine, argue against them. Don't assume you know me or my motivations; it is irrelevant to the core issue.

Taking LW at face value, two important points are that the affectionate behavior by her friend happened while they were watching TV and while tacky and immature, wasn't obscene or pornographic. In fact, it was the same behavior many a teenager or college student engaged in.

With the last in mind, if the LW was a friend, why not just make a comment, probably in a joking manner?

I have two suspicions, built on each other. First, the LW perceives the friendship as being deeper and more [platonically] intimate than her friend does. Second, that the LW's real question has nothing to do with the "PDA" itself, but that the friend's focus was not on her.

Thus the question isn't "how do I tell my friend to stop making out with her boyfriend with me around" but "why is my friend not treating our friendship the way I want and how do I tell her that?"

My answer remains the same; just tell her. If you really are friends, that's what friends do.

Which raises the possibility that the LW already knows that the friendship is largely one-sided.

Again, you may disagree with this; fine, but argue my points and stop the ad hominem attacks and departing fantastically from the text of the original letter.

(And yes, I believe Amy also misinterpretted the original letter and/or did a very poor job in editing the original letter. The LW likely reads this column, perhaps she could clarify what she meant.

IF the LW's friend was in fact engaging in behavior that went beyond the common definition of "making out", then I'll fully retract everything I said. But I ask all of you to do the same if the answer is my interpretation.)

I have two suspicions, built on each other. First, the LW perceives the friendship as being deeper and more [platonically] intimate than her friend does.

Your entire argument for this is based on the feeling that Amy edited the letter poorly or misinterpreted the meaning. Both are unlikely, since Amy had a lot of contact with the letter writers and has consistently done a fine job of presenting the problem. I would like you to present evidence that either of these things has happened besides your intuition in the matter.

IF the LW's friend was in fact engaging in behavior that went beyond the common definition of "making out",

I think the LW's friend's behavior was likely exactly in line with the common definition of making out, which is much too far to go in company.

You're the one departing from the content of the original letter. You are making wild assumptions based on personal feelings about how the LW and her friend feel, and the assumption that Amy has failed at her job. Not strong arguments.

I wasn't going to continue this but the meaning of the letter is absolutely clear.

They share long, passionate kisses and lie on top of each other and make out while we're all watching TV.

1) They are kissing
2) They are making out, which is an extension of the phrase kissing
3) They are watching TV (versus being engaged in conversation.)

It is also absolutely clear that the LW's expectations of her trip differed from her friend's. There is no other interpretation.

My point about editing is that the interpretation you and most everyone else is what requires an interpretation and massive assumptions that just aren't there.

"I think the LW's friend's behavior was likely exactly in line with the common definition of making out"

That's what I've been saying. The common definition of making out is kissing and necking.

And once again, you haven't replied to my argument. This has gotten completely pointless.

Amy and the LW could clarify this immediately. Neither has. No big surprise; Amy rarely clarifies when the argument goes against her original response.

It is also absolutely clear that the LW's expectations of her trip differed from her friend's. There is no other interpretation.

Yes. The LW expected her host to be gracious, and the host expected to get some action while her guest was forced to watch. That part we can agree on.

That's what I've been saying. The common definition of making out is kissing and necking.

And what the rest of us are saying is that kissing and necking is going too far in front of someone else who, as Amy put it, is not part of your threesome.

And once again, you haven't replied to my argument.

We have all addressed your argument. You are simply being intensely dense.

This has gotten completely pointless.

Then why continue to waste your time? Maybe you should stop replying.

Amy and the LW could clarify this immediately. Neither has. No big surprise; Amy rarely clarifies when the argument goes against her original response.

This part makes me think you don't actually read Amy's column very much.

Joe, everybody HAS answered your arguments.

Foreplay is not done in front of nonparticipating guests.

In what world are you that this is acceptable?

Can you not imagine what it is to be the third wheel? To sit there in a chair while two people make out completely oblivious to you, making you both "alone" and "uncomfortable" in the same moment?

Have you never heard of being a gracious host, and attending to the pleasure and company of a welcome guest?

You don't invite someone over to make them into an uncomfortable third wheel.

I don't have anything against making out, hell its fun. But unless you're at an orgy or a 3 way (otherwise known as "jackpot!" It is a TWO person activity that effectively isolates and ignores a guest.

If you can't figure out how that could be considered rude, you're to far gone down boor alley to argue with.

Robert, I didn't say it was acceptable; I said it was tacky. But neither was it pornographic.

I also stand by my comment that were they friends, this wouldn't be a dilemma for the writer, which tells me that this isn't about the PDA, but that friendship isn't what the LW thought.

She should applaud and throw money. This a free floor show. Americans are so spoiled.

Color me a sarcastic bitch, but as I packed and called a taxi I would have told my "hostess" that she had misspelled "welcome to my home", instead saying "welcome to my sex life". But don't call hostess-with-the-mostest a slut, 'cause, you know, judging is bad, mkay?

Seriously, LW, if you don't feel comfortable in a situation, you have the option of voting with your feet. You just get up, say something along the lines of "Screw this noise, I'm got to the Super 8." pack and go. Your so-called friend then has the option to appologize, and realize the error of her ways, or double down on stupid, in which case you save a stamp on one less Christmas card this year.

*going. Preview is my friend, dang it. I'm going to the Super 8.

Am I missing something here? The LW wanted to know what to say. Why didn't she just say 'You're making me uncomfortable when you make out. If you want to continue to do so, I will move into a hotel' Problem solved.