Knight Terrors
I'm a woman in my early 30s. I was one of the employees who got laid off after my employer lost a big account. I've found a new job, but it's not on my career path and it pays terribly. Still, it's a job and it pays. I live with my boyfriend, and we've always split the expenses, but he's trying to persuade me to keep looking for something better and to let him pay the bills until I find it. He keeps saying he's "happy to do that," but I just can't stomach it. I've always supported myself and taken pride in not being the sort of woman who sponges off a man, and I'm not ready to start now.
--Fiercely Independent
If only giving you a hand financially worked like giving medicine to a dog, then your boyfriend could just grind up some money and sneak it into your food.
The guy gets that you're in a relationship, not a tiny little welfare state. He's offering to help you not because he thinks you can't manage by yourself but because he thinks you shouldn't have to. That's what being in a relationship means -- two coming together as one, not one going it alone while the other one waits in the parking lot.
Though being "fiercely independent" is great if you're the lone survivor of a shipwreck or your car swerves off a lonely mountain road and you need to eat the passenger seat to survive, if spurning your boyfriend's help is any sort of a pattern, it's probably hurting your relationship. By refusing to show the vulnerability it takes to accept help, you keep the relationship on a "So, what's for dinner?" level emotionally and tell your boyfriend he isn't really needed. In time, this should lead him to the obvious question: "Well then, why am I still here?"
Sometimes, aggressive self-reliance is really fear in a Wonder Woman suit. Our "attachment" style -- our way of relating to those close to us -- traces back to our mother's (or other primary caregiver's) responsiveness to our needs as infants. If you could count on her to soothe you when you were distressed, you end up "securely attached," meaning you have a strong psychological base and feel comfortable relying on others. If, however, she was unavailable or rejecting, you become "avoidantly attached" and develop a habit of self-protective distancing. ("Can't count on anybody" becomes "Don't need nobody.")
The good news is, even if Mommy was the next best thing to an ice floe, there's no need to resign yourself to the effects of that. Research finds that a loving partner can help you break out of avoidant attachment by continually behaving in supportive ways that challenge your belief that you can't count on anybody. You, in turn, need to risk revealing your emotions and needs and trusting that your boyfriend will be there for you -- perhaps starting with accepting his offer of a financial cushion. Over time, as you see that you actually can rely on him, you should develop a more secure foundation -- and come to understand that true strength involves being confident that you can walk tall but sometimes being okay with curling up in a fetal position tall.
If you really want to insist on equitable splits, tell him you'll only accept his financial help if he lets you do more of the housework and you have sex 50% more often
lujlp at November 11, 2014 5:17 PM
Because the ladies, they hate the sex, ammirite?
Anathema at November 11, 2014 5:52 PM
That third paragraph is solid gold. LW, you can't rely on your partner for help, not because of a failure on his part, but because of one on your part.
SlowMindThinking at November 11, 2014 5:54 PM
LW, perhaps it would help your outlook if you think of it as an investment on his part, for purely selfish reasons. In return for a modest cash outlay while you find a better job, he gets a girlfriend who's happier (and therefore makes him happier) and better able to pay her own way going forward.
Rex Little at November 11, 2014 10:22 PM
Because the ladies, they hate the sex, ammirite?
No, but on average they want it less. Even more so when under stress, say like a financial strain
lujlp at November 12, 2014 5:43 AM
Seriously?!? Are we gonna do the women don't like sex thing again. Ugh!! Moving on ...
BeccaB at November 12, 2014 6:22 AM
Maybe a compromise could be reached. Maybe instead of paying nothing, she could pay a smaller portion of the rent and utilities and let him pick up the slack.
Patrick at November 12, 2014 6:28 AM
I'm always a bit amazed by women who don't understand there is a difference in the size of male and female libido. But I shouldn't be. After all it is such a common occurrence. Still it feels the same as seeing someone surprised that water is wet.
And LW issue is sadly common these days. My sister and most of my female cousins didn't learn how to cook because the patriarchy. Us guys learned to cook because food tastes good. So the girls went through college surviving on ramen and chef boyardee while the guys had beef stroganoff.
Marriage should be a partnership. And just like a business partnership it is best if you bring different things to the table. The we both do exactly 50% of everything ideal is stupid and exhausting.
Ben at November 12, 2014 6:50 AM
Do not put yourself in the vulnerable position if financial dependence on someone who isnt family. Hes your botfriend not your husband, if you break up you are screwed
Nicolek at November 12, 2014 7:06 AM
"aggressive self-reliance"
I like that phrase, some observations make more sense in that light, might even have to examine some of my own motives. Accepting help graciously can be hard on the ego.
For the LW, a strict 50/50 policy might be too rigid. It was suggested to me that a more fair arrangement might be paying percentages based on the relative incomes, and if there is a change in income (like in LW's case) the percentages change to match. It's not a perfect solution, and may require more negotiation, but might be an option in this case, even if just temporarily.
bkmale at November 12, 2014 8:13 AM
When my boyfriend was launching his business I completely took on our basic living expenses (rent, utilities, groceries) for a little over a year. It was hard for him to accept this at first, but I was so happy he agreed to take my help because it showed he was willing to trust me, set aside his pride and work as a team. He was able to put all his money back into his business and nurse it through its growing pains.
I also somewhat agree with Nicolek, and I've seen a friend get screwed by becoming too financially dependent on a boyfriend. So I'm hesitant to say LW should quit the job. Maybe she accepts his offer to shoulder the bulk of their shared living expenses while she keeps making her own car payments/student loan payments and saving as much as she can.
sofar at November 12, 2014 8:19 AM
LW, I am totally with you. I cringe at the idea of beind dependent on another person. That said, a few years ago, I got laid off and I was unemployed for four months, and every day I asked myself, "What am I doing?" There were several principles that helped me get through that period:
* During that period, I was paying my portion of the bills from savings. We were fortunate to have some money in the bank, and the account that I used to pay bills was one that contained mostly money I had put in. I was able to tell myself that I was living, temporarily, off of my own past efforts instead of sponging off of my wife. If you don't have money in the bank to fall back on, make this deal with your BF: keep track of what he spends covering your bills while you are out of work, and after you get a new job, you will gradually pay that money back into a joint bank account. Once you've done so, then the two of you have some savings to either keep for a future rainy day, or put into something else you want to do together.
* You know the old saying, "When you are out of a job, finding a job is your job." I spent hours each day contacting people, making phone calls, going through ads, and sending out resumes and letters. So I was doing my job, such as it was. If you're taking time off to undergo training, it's a similar principle: you think of it as an investment in yourself, which happens to be what your job is at that moment.
* While I was off work, I minimized my "cost of existence". I didn't eat out much; I fixed nearly all meals at home. Even though I was home during the day, I let the air conditioning go to the daytime setbacks (it was during the summer). When the house got hot in the afternoon, I either retreated to the basement or went outside. I only spent money on entertainment if I knew it was something I would really enjoy. And I didn't get out and drive around much, in order to minimize spending on gas.
Cousin Dave at November 12, 2014 8:46 AM
I think the real question that needs to be answered is how serious of a relationship is this? Is this a 6 mo-1 year situation? Or is it a 5-10 year situation?
If they have only been with each other for a short time I don't know how much trust could have been generated. I commented about a marriage, but this is a boyfriend.
Also I can't tell enough about this job. Is this a backbreaking situation that prevents her from looking for other work? Or is it a job that just doesn't pay as much as she would like and she can keep looking in her off time?
And really key to me is who is legally responsible for the residence? If it is an apartment is her name on the lease or his? If they break up can she just move? If her name is not on the lease/mortgage/whatever then I don't see how him paying puts her in a risky financial situation. Him paying more today leaves her with more resources in case of a split.
The main thing she mentioned was pride. And that is something she may need to change if she wants this relationship to work.
Ben at November 12, 2014 11:52 AM
I missed where taking a job somehow completely prevents one from looking for a different job. So it is not an all or nothing option.
It may be easier since you have more free time, to do it. But it also looks better if you currently have a job.
So to me better questions are, how long has the LW been job hunting without luck?
Joe j at November 12, 2014 12:27 PM
Ben I read it as he wants her to quit to look for something better... Which means she'd be screwed if they broke up. If she keeps her job while he pays for everything it is another matter
Nicolek at November 12, 2014 6:42 PM
Seriously?!? Are we gonna do the women don't like sex thing again. Ugh!! Moving on ... BeccaB
Yes, but only because YOU insist on doing the 'women are to fucking emotional to comprehend what they read and throw a conniption fit about shit no one actually ever wrote'
Any one know the etymology of conniption? This is why I love my sarcasm, it always spark a journey of odd knowledge
lujlp at November 12, 2014 6:45 PM
@"I'm always a bit amazed by women who don't understand there is a difference in the size of male and female libido"
http://www.chrisharding.net/wetherobots/comics/x2008-01-07-Misinformed.jpg.pagespeed.ic.Jr8ckChJQh.jpg
Lobster at November 13, 2014 2:56 AM
"I missed where taking a job somehow completely prevents one from looking for a different job. So it is not an all or nothing option."
Going back and reading the letter again, I realize I may have read something into it that wasn't there... I was under the impression, on first reading, that the LW needed to leave her current job in order to obtain training of some sort.
Cousin Dave at November 13, 2014 10:35 AM
About this business of becoming "avoidantly attached" and develop(ing) a habit of self-protective distancing. ("Can't count on anybody" becomes "Don't need nobody.")
What if your parent(s) weren't emotionally distant but simply incompetent at handling situations and solving problems? You could easily reach the conclusion, as a child, that you can't count on anybody because you always got stuck having to handle everything yourself. Not because your parents were "ice floes" but maybe just ignorant and not very capable.
Pirate Jo at November 13, 2014 11:14 AM
NicoleK,
I did see the bit implying quitting to look for something better. Which confused me because most jobs don't prevent you from looking for something better. And for most jobs it is easier to get a better one if you currently have one. Even if it is not in the same field or same social level. At least you showed you want to work.
So as I said there are significant questions that need to be answered before decent advice can be provided.
Ben at November 13, 2014 1:28 PM
" but he's trying to persuade me to keep looking for something better and to let him pay the bills until I find it." We might be missing a few points here. Does she come home exhausted and is just no fun to be around? Is it a job with serious dangers involved? Is it a job with funky hours that prevent them from seeing each other? It might just be that for him having her present and pleasant is more important than not having extra toy/investment money. Not everything harkens back Freudian style to childhood trauma, yes I know attachment style is John Bowlby not Freud.
Yes some jobs can make it hard or impossible to look for other work. Mainly in the going to interviews aspect. You just started there taking time off to go to 10-15 interviews will get you dismissed real fast. I doubt her career is fast food or retail so usually it takes multiple interviews for a single opportunity. Going to an evening interview after getting your ass kicked all day will show. Unless the interviewer "has been there" you have significantly reduced your chance of getting that job. So finding a job when you have one is not as easy as some are making it sound.
"Seriously?!? Are we gonna do the women don't like sex thing again. Ugh!! Moving on ... BeccaB" Nope not touching it. It's the debate that never ends.
vlad at November 13, 2014 1:54 PM
I guess I didn't assume he was asking her to quit her job. More that, in light of her currently reduced salary, he would shoulder more of the household bills until she finds something better.
Pirate Jo at November 13, 2014 4:56 PM
My mom was emotionally available, but stayed married because she had five kids and a teacher's income. I made a decision at the age of 8 that I would never be beholden to anyone because of money. Now, I make way more money than any man I've ever dated or married, and also am fiercely independent. I can't say it's always been the healthiest posture; my attitude has messed up more than one good relationship. Becoming a true partner isn't necessarily easy, but it seems like the boyfriend is moving that direction. A little self reflection may ease some of the discomfort associated with his offer, and set the writer on a path of more emotional intimacy.
pbjammin at November 13, 2014 8:27 PM
Nope not touching it. It's the debate that never ends.>/i>
It's not a debate. It's the lament of people who aren't good at sex. Trust me: If you're good at sex, the person you're with will want it.
MonicaP at November 13, 2014 9:41 PM
If you're good at sex, the person you're with will want it
Damn skippy, and if they are bad at sex TELL THEM so they can get better
I can never bring myself to feel sorry for my female friends who boast of faking it on the one hand and complain the guy cant get them off on the other
lujlp at November 14, 2014 3:48 AM
Exactly!!!! And guys who can't find a woman who likes sex need to consider the one common denominator. And yes, both parties should feel free to ask for what feels good.
BeccaB at November 14, 2014 5:43 AM
I can never bring myself to feel sorry for my female friends who boast of faking it on the one hand and complain the guy cant get them off on the other
This, absolutely. No fair bitching about how much it sucks if you're not trying to make it better.
As for the LW's issue: Her problem seems to be that she's not considering other ways she can contribute to their mutual happiness. She's hung up on financial contributions. He doesn't seem to mind her not making money for a while, so he clearly values other things.
Example: I'm a stay-at-home mom. My husband and I consider ourselves equal partners, just with different spheres of responsibility. Obviously, she's not signing up for that role, but she can make herself more valuable in other areas, like taking on more of the chores, to pull her own weight.
MonicaP at November 14, 2014 7:50 AM
I can never bring myself to feel sorry for my female friends who boast of faking it on the one hand and complain the guy cant get them off on the other.
Posted by: lujlp at November 14, 2014 3:48 AM
There's a lot to be said for dating people who know how to work well with their hands.
Michelle at November 14, 2014 7:53 PM
@"It's not a debate. It's the lament of people who aren't good at sex"
Not necessarily; it takes two active participants to make sex good.
Lobster at November 15, 2014 3:14 AM
It is not even a lament but a recognition of reality. Female sex drive is typically not as high as male sex drive.
The comment 'If you're good at sex, the person you're with will want it.' is quite revealing. When was the last time a guy said 'No thanks, you aren't any good at sex.' Because she is crazy or because of the drama are masculine complaints. The only time I heard of bad sex as a reason from a guy he ended up in the hospital needing surgery.
Benjamin Anderson at November 15, 2014 6:41 AM
Still, it's a job and it pays. I live with my boyfriend, and we've always split the expenses, but he's trying to persuade me to keep looking for something better and to let him pay the bills until I find it.
Why does it have to be either/or: either you continue paying half the expenses or you pay none of the expenses? Why not a compromise, where you pay something toward the expenses, but don't split them? That way you're still making a contribution and he gets to help. Seems like win/win to me.
JD at November 15, 2014 11:36 AM
The Atlantic: How Strong Is the Female Sex Drive After All?
When Baumeister set out to compare the male and the female sex drive about a decade ago, the four leading psychology textbooks of the time either did not address the fact that the male and female sex drive were different, or they suggested that they were the same. When he presented his hypothesis--that the male sex drive is stronger than the female drive--to peers in his field, they were skeptical. They believed, as Baumeister puts it, that "the idea that men have a stronger sex drive than women was probably some obsolete, wrong, and possibly offensive stereotype."So Baumeister and two (female) colleagues set to work reviewing hundreds of studies about human sexuality and found consistently that women are less motivated by sex than men are.
JD at November 15, 2014 11:49 AM
Trust me: If you're good at sex, the person you're with will want it.
Monica, yes, they will probably want it, but that doesn't mean they will want it as much as you do.
Or that they will want the same type of sex as you do. In addition to, in general, having a greater libido than women, I also believe that men are -- again, in general -- kinkier than women.
JD at November 15, 2014 11:59 AM
the four leading psychology textbooks of the time either did not address the fact that the male and female sex drive were different, or they suggested that they were the same.
Seriously? How blind do you have to be to ignore something so obvious?
Also obvious is the evolutionary reason for the male sex drive to be stronger. In general, for reproduction to happen, men have to actively want sex. Women merely have to submit to it.
With exceptions at the top (for men) or bottom (for women) of the attractiveness scale, women can get all the sex they want; men want all the sex they can get.
Rex Little at November 15, 2014 12:11 PM
Rex,
Ideology is an incredibly good blinder. There is a similar problem in education research today. The base assumption is girls are normal and any behavior deviating from that is abnormal and needing correction. Which is a major cause of why boys do worse in school at all age levels and in all disciplines.
Ben at November 15, 2014 1:40 PM
Anyone know if Amy's columns published in newspapers are the same one's shown here on the blog?
I was looking for one that ran 11/14/14 in our newspaper titled "Wife's Motorcycle Fantasy Dashed With Hubby's Vespa"...but I can't find it here.
I wanted to share it with some friends...Thanks
Pete at November 17, 2014 2:08 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2014/11/knight-terrors.html#comment-5506037">comment from PetePete, thanks, you can write me with questions like that. I run columns about five weeks after papers do. I need people to read me in papers to afford to keep writing. Most papers publish it online when it runs in their print edition. Not all do but most do.
Amy Alkon at November 17, 2014 6:58 AM
Here it is,
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/11/05/it_takes_a_big.html
crella at November 19, 2014 4:00 AM
Simple fact: Women can have unlimited numbers of orgasms. Men often can only have one and then need anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour before they're good to go again. Biology is destiny. All these men who claim that women don't like sex apparently haven't figured out how to give those women the kinds of multiple orgasms that have them demanding more.
I grant that the higher female sex drive can be annoying. I have had men be seriously annoyed at me for "pestering" them. I've learned that the Hitachi is my friend when a guy can't throw down with more than a few times a day.
And I'm not some kind of weirdo freak. Most of the sex-positive women I know feel similarly. I really think it's our culture that has for so long told women that they're bad and slutty and whatever if they enjoy sex that has perpetuated this idea.
And of course there are women who have trouble with orgasm, or who aren't in the mood that often. Just like there are men in the same situation. One size does not fit all, ymmv, etc. But really. When you have a body that has unlimited capacity for pleasure, why *wouldn't* you want to use it?
Anathema at November 19, 2014 7:10 AM
Also, srsly, wanting less sex when under stress? I'd say orgasm is just about the best stress relief available. Better for you than Valium and less fattening than Ben & Jerry's.
Anathema at November 19, 2014 7:12 AM
@"Most of the sex-positive women I know feel similarly. I really think it's our culture that has for so long told women that they're bad and slutty"
It might well be the culture rather than biology that irreparably screws up the majority of Western women with so many sexual anxieties and hangups. But whatever the reason, it doesn't matter, the effect and end result is the same for the majority of men: that most women don't want sex as much as men. Even of that small percentage of women who realize the problem, very few are able to even partially overcome the deep-seated puritanical brainwashing (not that many women even think about the concept of 'sex positive', let alone try practice it).
You can't simultaneously blame the men for not having the ability to deliver mind-blowing multiple orgasms, and then in the very next breath admit it's the "culture that has for so long told women that they're bad and slutty" - that is a contradiction.
Lobster at November 19, 2014 1:50 PM
The orgasm crack was basically just me being a dick to someone who seemed perhaps a little unclear on female biology. Obviously it's not the bloke's job to give women orgasms. It's nice when they do, but any lady with at least one working hand and a power outlet can take care of that business. And often has to not because men are weak and frail, but because, as noted, biology is destiny, and female bodies can deliver a lot more sex than men's can generally dish out. Which is not a judgment--I have lots of awesome sex with the folks I love, but I'm also a realist.
And sure, there are women who don't like sex, not because of societal issues, but because it's the way their brains or bodies are wired, and that's great as long as they're happy. Same with dudes who have the same issues. but I still believe that give me two healthy, sex-positive humans who are good to go, and the woman ill have greater capacity to keep going. In fact, er, having dated both genders I can say that my personal experience (anecdotal of course, no double-blind studies were done, more's the pity) it's been the case. In the average threesome (of course ymmv), I've found that after a few hours the dude tends to need a break, while the ladies are still going strong.
Maybe I just need to find those higher-sex-drive guys out there that apparently y'all have lots of experience with, who can throw down four times a day and five or six on weekends and bank holidays. That sounds neat. (Okay, actually my long-time secondary partner actually kinda can keep up to that degree. But he is a man amongst men as far as I've been able to determine.) More study will clearly be required! And that's why science is fun, boys and girls.
Anathema at November 25, 2014 5:01 PM
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