Rant's Tomb
I'm a woman in my early 20s. I do fine getting dates, but only first dates. And no, I'm not having sex with guys on the first date, but I still never hear from them again. I ran into one of these guys at a party and begged him to tell me what had gone wrong. He said, "You're kind of intense." I asked him to explain, and he said, "You do a lot of talking." I do talk a lot, but I'm informed and opinionated. Do I really have to be some mute little woman to get second dates?
--Man Repellant
On a date, you should merely be splashing your personality around, tempted as you may be to hold a guy down and try to drown him in it.
This isn't to say you have to be "some mute little woman" to get a second date. Consider that there's a middle ground between channeling Nancy Grace and playing a shy geisha hiding behind her fan. And sorry, but being "informed" and "opinionated" does not give you a pass to turn a date into a re-education camp with wine and entrees. In fact, this sort of conversational takeover is like a toupee; it usually ends up calling attention to whatever it was supposed to cover up (self-worth issues, nervousness, or maybe a need to push people away, despite putting yourself out there like you want a relationship).
To see more of these guys than their exhaust as they drive away forever, be mindful of the purpose of a date: getting to know somebody, not getting to know how they look listening to you. As for all this information you're excited to impart, ironically, the way you get somebody interested in listening to you is by showing interest in them. You do that by listening to them -- really listening (from the gut, not just nodding while waiting for them to take a breath so you can shoehorn in your next point).
Being willing to share the conversational space isn't a sign you're some empty dress of a woman; quite the contrary. It's what secure people do -- connecting with others instead of pepper-spraying them with words. Try an experiment on your next few dates. Say as little as possible about yourself all evening. Answer questions about yourself when asked, but focus on asking your date about who he is and what he thinks. Chances are, you'll have a much better time and maybe get asked on some second and third dates. Wonderful things can happen when you give a man the sense that there's a real reason for him to be there -- as opposed to the idea that he could have stayed home and, in his place, sent a giant ear.
Content can be that trigger. Even if you only say fifty words all night, if they challenge a popular belief - or even the way the listener forms a belief - you'll end up alone.
Because people really, really don't go out with you to think. They can barely stand it the rest of the time.
Radwaste at March 4, 2015 6:11 AM
It's supposed to be a date, not a debate.
MarkD at March 4, 2015 6:41 AM
Everyone knows the best way to get a second date is to listen to the guy. If you are talking more than listening, geez, that's not good.
gooseegg at March 4, 2015 7:57 AM
I always suspect women like the letter writer have a bunch of liberal feminist political beliefs that they can't wait to share with their date, to make sure they are compatible,
I freely admit to talking too much and listening too little when I was younger.
But at least I didn't automatically turn off half my dates with left wing political nuttery.
Men lean conservative. Most are looking for a woman who won't treat them like a piece of jewelry.
Isab at March 4, 2015 8:44 AM
Enjoyed the Nancy Grace reference. Her husband probably never gets a word in.
Patrick at March 4, 2015 8:50 AM
Isab, I think turning off half her dates is fine. If she's a left wing nut (or a right wing nut) she may as well put that out there; surely there's someone out there who would buy what she's selling.
I guess that's only true if she wants an actual relationship; if the goal (as she states) is just to get a second date then I agree with you.
kf at March 4, 2015 9:34 AM
Of course, the same advice not to completely dominate the conversation holds for both genders.
I'm also now trying to picture the date would go in which both parties have resolved to listen more than they talk, hehe.
Jdbar93 at March 4, 2015 9:38 AM
If a woman isn't getting second dates, describes herself as "informed and opinionated," and thinks that the alternative to dominating conversation on a first date is being "some mute little woman," she's going to be waving more red flags than a Chinese ship. No surprise that men are running screaming from this one.
Brian at March 4, 2015 10:04 AM
I blame feminism. Yes, I'm being facetious, but: Postmodern feminism does present women with an either/or choice: Either you're arrogant and domineering towards men, or your're caving in to Teh Patriarchy. I can't tell you how many times I've seen, over the past several years, variants of this: "I'd like to do something nice for my boyfriend/husband, but if I do that, aren't I betraying the sisterhood?"
Cousin Dave at March 4, 2015 12:01 PM
I always suspect women like the letter writer have a bunch of liberal feminist political beliefs that they can't wait to share with their date, to make sure they are compatible
People on the extreme ends of the political spectrum (whatever end that happens to be) don't seem to know when to shut up.
I've got a right-leaning friend who got back in the dating pool at age 32. She called me upset that she "blew it" with a guy she was attracted to. When I asked what happened she said, "It's totally fine to discuss current events and what you think about them, right?"
"What current events did you discuss?" I asked.
"Voter ID laws."
*headdesk*
Even if I agreed with my date, I wouldn't want to discuss that stuff on the first date.
sofar at March 4, 2015 2:55 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've seen, over the past several years, variants of this: "I'd like to do something nice for my boyfriend/husband, but if I do that, aren't I betraying the sisterhood?"
Didnt we have one here a couple weeks ago?
lujlp at March 4, 2015 3:38 PM
I'm torn on this one. If you want to talk about Voter ID laws on a first date, because you enjoy talking about that kind of thing, then it could be a way to weed out people who don't share your interests.
Then, instead of feeling bad about herself, she could just look at it like she isn't meeting people who share her interests. She could, conversely, meet a guy who shares her passionate views about the subject, and he would think he was in seventh heaven, because none of the other girls he has dated care about the same things he does.
In my early 20s, I was into Ayn Rand and libertarianism and wasn't the least bit shy about it. With the guys I dated it went 50/50. Half of them fell head over heels in love with me because of it, and the other half said I was too "intense." The latter half I deemed "boring," so there were no hard feelings when a second date wasn't forthcoming.
But one thing I did right - I let my dates do their share of the talking. Look at it as a way to learn more ways to state the points you already believe in.
If you want to decide whether you have a lot in common with a guy, let them talk, and then quietly form your own opinions. If all YOU do is talk, then they may be turned off by your poor social skills, and then you will never know if it was your opinions that turned them off, or the fact that they never got a word in edgewise.
Pirate Jo at March 4, 2015 3:55 PM
Women like LW are the reason why men get trained to keep our feelings bottled inside us. Too often, we're married to those women. As Dr Robert Glover mentions, we push those feelings down so deep that even we cannot find answers. When we do get asked to "open up", we're interrupted, criticized, judged, and corrected. Then, our partners wonder why we never talk about our feelings.
D'oh.
jefe at March 4, 2015 6:46 PM
I do talk a lot, but I'm informed and opinionated. Do I really have to be some mute little woman to get second dates?
There's a middle ground between yakking incessantly and being mute. It's called having a conversation. You might consider it.
JD at March 4, 2015 7:20 PM
^ yes!
I love meeting and getting to know folks, so dates are fun for me. Even if I'm not head over heels I enjoy hearing about others views and thoughts. I don't use a date as a captive audience as I spout off all my self titled, "informed" opinions.. that statement LW made was cringe worthy.
yolabubbles at March 4, 2015 10:28 PM
If i have a choice for re-education camp, i'll prefer wine and apetizers to north Korea ... just saying.
BTW, if you fall in one extrem, you better maximize your chance of dating by going to meetings of your kinds.
nico@ver at March 5, 2015 3:49 AM
I was in a coffee shop a few weeks ago, and there was a young couple on a date. The guy was clearly trying to impress her, talking himself up and about the great stuff he does... he was having a great time, he was smiling, enthusiastic...
... she on the other hand had an expression on her face like "Why wont this asshole shut up"
Poor guy. He was trying so hard, I wanted to take him aside and say "Dude, people like people who make them feel awesome, why not give her a chance to feel awesome?" I was routing for him but I doubt he won fair maiden
NicoleK at March 5, 2015 8:16 AM
Most men are not interested in the masculine qualities of "informed and opinionated" in a romantic possibility. We're interested in "kind, sweet, and feminine." If I want some fiery political debate, I have plenty of male friends and relatives for that. I certainly don't want it on a first (or tenth) date.
MikeInRealLife at March 5, 2015 9:43 AM
I'm torn on this one. If you want to talk about Voter ID laws on a first date, because you enjoy talking about that kind of thing, then it could be a way to weed out people who don't share your interests.
hmmmm also a good point. And, I admit, I'd appreciate if a date revealed himself to be, say, an evolution-denier on Date 1, so I wouldn't waste any more time.
I guess it depends on how the subject comes up.
If it comes up naturally ("What did you do today?" "Oh, I was at a protest." "About what?" "Voter ID Laws." And then you drop it unless there are follow-up questions asked), that's one thing.
If you, apropose of nothing, blurt out "Hey, I was reading this article on voter ID laws. Here's what I think about the issue ..." and then launch into a diatribe, that's a problem and shows a lack of social skills.
sofar at March 5, 2015 9:46 AM
mmm, ultimately this is no different than having crazymonkeylove on the first date... save that there will never be a bootycall later.
EVEN WITH a guy of similar opinion, what are you being so intense about on the first date, LW? You are dumping all your mystery, defining yourself down to soundbite, and giving a binary option to like/notlike right away... at least based on your words, and the guys saying "wow, intense."
We've all been there at one time or other, the joy of someone who will listen is intoxicating, and you know what that means: impulse control deficit.
I'm sure you've seen in movies somewhere where X asks Y a question, and there is this crystalline moment of hesitation, a slight downcast of the eye... and then: "It doesn't matter..."
BOOM.
X knows that there is something important, but it won't be given... that kind of knowledge is earned by getting to actually know someone.
It may be as innocuous as having a tattoo of "Dan Fogelburp" in an unfortunate place... Or it may be something dark, and unhappy. Or even the sudden: "tell me there is a bathroomcloseby!!!1111".
It's understandable that if you are intense, you expect everyone else to be intense, but experience will teach you that not everyone is.
But when you say this: "Do I really have to be some mute little woman to get second dates?"
Sounds like you already have a built in bias and/or chip on your shoulder.
That chip MAY be coming out in your intense conversations...
If being able to deal with your intensity, or chips is a requirement, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. But you should know that each additional checkbox in dating requirements reduces the number of guys interested, or even eligible... and it's a numbers game.
If Amy is correct that this is a matter of listening to someone else, then: yeah, that too. I'm going to guess it's a little of both.
Listen to someone else for a change, and also don't tell everything you know...
"he will fail to hear a shout, who will strain to catch a whisper..."
SwissArmyD at March 5, 2015 10:23 AM
"hmmmm also a good point. And, I admit, I'd appreciate if a date revealed himself to be, say, an evolution-denier on Date 1, so I wouldn't waste any more time."
Reminds me of the gal I went out with who spent most of our first date trying to convince me to join the John Birch Society. She had a killer bod, but wow.
Cousin Dave at March 5, 2015 12:00 PM
MikeInRealLife: Most men are not interested in the masculine qualities of "informed and opinionated" in a romantic possibility. We're interested in "kind, sweet, and feminine."
Perhaps that is true for most men. However, it's not true for this one. I like a woman who's "informed and opinionated" as long she's willing to have give-and-take, to listen as well as talk.
JD at March 5, 2015 7:30 PM
I'll keep it short (for a change).
Conversation...not a lecture.
Dialogue...not monologue.
Nobody - male, female, or other - enjoys being explained at.
Wallawallawanda at March 6, 2015 8:01 AM
Reminds me of the gal I went out with who spent most of our first date trying to convince me to join the John Birch Society. She had a killer bod, but wow.
A friend of mine pretended he had a "family emergency" once to escape a date with a Scientologist.
sofar at March 6, 2015 8:20 AM
She is in her early 20's, and she thinks of herself as being "informed". Is there anything more annoying than a 21-year-old who thinks they know it all?
rick at March 6, 2015 10:37 AM
^^ She could very well be informed on a wide variety of topics. Whether she is insightful if another matter.
MonicaP at March 10, 2015 6:00 PM
I'm also now trying to picture the date would go in which both parties have resolved to listen more than they talk, hehe.
I had exactly the same thought. :) It could either be one of those long, uncomfortable silent ones punctuated by questions answered tersely, or a really, really great exchange of selves that might lead somewhere.
Grey Ghost at March 13, 2015 6:14 AM
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