Two Brokeback Girls
I'm a butch lesbian with a crush on a (supposedly) straight married lady who's very tomboyish. She has a number of lesbian friends, and I suspect her husband is in the closet. I keep telling her she's "culturally gay" (because she dresses "soft butch" -- combat boots, cords, etc. -- and because of some of her attitudes), but I actually think there's more to it than that. She insists she's straight but seems weirdly upset by my comments.
--Be Who You Are
Why not just say it right out: "There's the closet. Could you please sit in there for a half-hour and come out ready to leave your husband?"
I personally find it tragic when gay people feel they have to "ungay" themselves by living straight, but respecting another person's privacy means accepting that they get to choose which parts of their life they'll be taking commentary on. In other words, by picketing a baker who won't make a cake for a gay wedding, you're exercising your free speech rights, but it's way out of line for you to effectively picket somebody's relationship: "We're here! We're queer! And guess what: So are the two of you!" And no, this isn't justified by your creation of an updated Kinsey scale -- one that measures female homosexual desire based on a woman's choice of footwear and whether she accessorizes with a welding mask.
So, instead of trying to drag this woman (by her wallet chain) out of her marriage, turn your attention to a woman who's single and out. Respect that for your friend, Prince Charming may very well be that dude from the Disney movies, determined as you are to recast him as a soldier of fortune crossed with a lady gym teacher.
So....how would she like it it she dated a lipstick lesbian and men insisted said gf was really straight and should leave her butch gf to be with a "real" man? Because obviously lesbians that dress feminely aren't truly gay. I mean if we're gonna follow the she dressed like a tomboy logic.
Hey and MAYBE she is a lesbian but has zero interest In the LW.
Ppen at May 19, 2015 4:31 PM
The whole 'Your gay, you just don't know it yet.' thing is really annoying. Hey, maybe she does know she isn't gay.
Ben at May 19, 2015 4:32 PM
"Culturally gay"? That's a new one on me. Frankly, I find the concept annoying. It's as if insecure gay people invented a new concept to further validate themselves.
Just when I thought I heard it all, too. When I was in college, there was a very "out" gay guy I knew (not that he could have fooled anyone into thinking he was straight). His favorite word was "tendencies." Certain behaviors indicated that a straight guy had gay "tendencies." And Freud had nothing on him. If you were standing in the hallway, and you happened to lean against the wall and hang your hand on one of the vaguely-phallic (in his mind) pegs for hanging your coat, you had "tendencies" because of your unconscious desire to have a dick in your hand. But he prided himself on being "sexually mature," whatever that means. And certain "tendencies" indicated that someone was "sexually immature."
But that's a bit of a long digression. The point is, this woman seems very determined that her friend is gay, and even if she's not, she's "culturally gay."
I don't believe in "gaydar," by the way. I believe in wishful thinking and perhaps certain unconscious associations, but there is no extra sense that reveals a person's sexual orientation.
In any case, this woman needs to mind her own business, which Amy expressed much more politely than I would have.
Patrick at May 19, 2015 4:38 PM
Oh, my gosh! It's almost like in high school, when someone will ask a girl out on a date and she says she's not ready to date. And then the next week, she's dating the best friend! This is what the woman does not want to happen, because it is the ultimate rejection.
Fayd at May 19, 2015 4:48 PM
where LW goes wrong is to her own "knowledge" with the reality of the situation... especially in terms of expectation.
Boil'd down to this... you have a crush on this Chica, and she is married.
She is radioactive to you, FULL STOP.
If you actually love her or have feelies, or whatever, you should be wanting her to be the happiest she can be, even if that isn't with you.
And with that transcendent knowledge of wishing the best for the person you love... you become that person who can be loved, with space in the heart for the next honeybuns who comes along.
You may even be correct about this couple.
But it is not for you to participate or intercede.
Ultimately you can hang 'round hoping they fall apart, and then deal with all the fallout from that, like a puppy.
Or you can, as Amy said, go find someone available. Better, more immediate outcome, with less baggage.
Seriously, what are you hoping for here? That their marriage implodes, and then you are there to help her pick up the pieces? You know how shattering rebound romances can be? Plus divorce. Plus "am I soft butch?" confusion. Oi?
Do you really need that much drama?
SwissArmyD at May 19, 2015 4:54 PM
Women really do have a 'gaydar' and can tell a man's sexuality just by looking at them:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2007337/Gaydar-Women-really-tell-sexuality-just-looking-man.html
Snoopy at May 19, 2015 5:20 PM
Sorry, that was in response to Patrick saying:
"I don't believe in "gaydar," by the way."
Snoopy at May 19, 2015 5:21 PM
Well if the Daily Mail isn't a reputable source, I don't know what is.
It has been my observation that men are much better than women at telling if a guy is gay, and the reverse is also true. I've actually known a few women who unwittingly married gay men, so maybe my statistics are skewed. Personally, every guy I've thought was gay and later found out their preference, was gay. Of course, I wouldn't really know the other way, other than no guy I thought was straight has hit on me. (I'm about as straight as they come.)
SlowMindThinking at May 19, 2015 7:41 PM
If women have gaydar, then why do so many of them fall for gay men?
Patrick at May 20, 2015 3:41 AM
Patrick, I'm sure you've already run into this, but there are certain women out there who seek out relationships with gay men. They see it as a best-of-both-worlds sitaution: they get a big brother who will support them and take them out to dinner and listen to them talk, and not expect anything in return.
As for the LW: Be what you are and don't take any crap about it. But grant others the same privilege.
Cousin Dave at May 20, 2015 7:38 AM
"She insists she's straight but seems weirdly upset by my comments."
Yeah, that's because you're being rude. And your attempt to interfere in her marriage indicate that you're also of selfish and poor character.
ahw at May 20, 2015 7:39 AM
...they get a big brother who will support them and take them out to dinner and listen to them talk, and not expect anything in return.
These gay men may not expect SEX in return, but it seems unlikely to me that they would seek out the company of straight women for no reason whatsoever. Maybe they also want someone to listen to THEM talk.
If I had lived in medieval times, before there was reliable birth control, yet women all had to get married, I would have sought out a gay man - preferably a rich one. Then people would stop pestering me to get a husband and I also wouldn't end up with a bunch of kids.
Pirate Jo at May 20, 2015 8:20 AM
Gee, I can't imagine why she'd be upset. She tells you she's straight, but you keep telling her she's "culturally gay." Worse, you're assuming it goes beyond that.
If she hasn't already kicked you to the curb for the boorish oaf that you are, I would suggest you back off. It's none of your business what she is, and in any case, she's made it abundantly clear that (regardless of her sexuality), she's unavailable to you.
Also, drop the phrase "culturally gay" from your vocabulary. "Culturally gay" is a meaningless phrase used by insecure gays in order to validate themselves, by slapping a "gay" label on as many people as they can.
Ironically enough, you're actually demonstrating some significant bigotry of your own. You assume because she wears corduroys and combat boots, she's really a closeted lesbian. Wouldn't this be somewhat narrow-minded of you, to compartmentalize someone because they don't dress in a style that you associate with heterosexual females?
Patrick at May 20, 2015 8:40 AM
Re the "soft butch tendencies" -- I suspect I fall into that category, too, wearing, as I often do, such things as boots and corduroy. Indeed thirty years ago, a lesbian told me I was "the dykiest straight woman she'd ever met." And I could see it -- I'm also brash, outspoken, don't defer to men, suck at the game of turning myself into a mirror that reflects them at twice their size.
Just one thing: I'm boy crazy, and have been since kindergarten. Majorly hot for guys. Tried kissing a few women in my youth; it did nothing for me -- too squishy. Been happily married for twenty years to a man who still gets my attention. Had a few crushes in the meanwhile, all on guys. I'm dykey except for that little detail of being hopelessly heterosexual.
The point being that boots, corduroy, and even an outspoken, brash demeanor do not a lesbian make.
Dana at May 20, 2015 8:33 PM
"I know you're secretly gay"...is that gay for "you're not really gay - you've just never been f*cked by a REAL man"? I think it's almost as offensive.
Jesper at May 21, 2015 1:57 AM
Jesper, I think it's code for "I have a major wood for you, and I won't take 'I'm straight' for an answer."
Patrick at May 21, 2015 6:56 AM
"If women have gaydar, then why do so many of them fall for gay men?"
You can make that statement about anything. Women can spot abusers very well and yet they still fall for them.
Humans have very good radar about many things but they just choose to ignore it.
It's called fantasy thinking. Following your intuition when it means not getting something you want is very hard.
Ppen at May 21, 2015 3:39 PM
oh my god lw, you make us all look bad. whether or not your crush is in the closet IS NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. whether or not she ever comes out of it IS NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. shut the hell up already about trying to convince your crush - who you obviously have no respect for, since she CLEARLY does not appreciate your comments and yet you keep making them - she's not "weirdly uncomfortable". she's ACTUALLY uncomfortable. as in trying really hard not to punch you while you make a fucking ass of yourself.
me at May 21, 2015 7:36 PM
@snoopy "Women really do have a 'gaydar' and can tell a man's sexuality just by looking at them"
Sorry, but this isn't really true - the Daily Mail headline exaggerates and distorts the truth badly ... here is the actual study the Daily Mail article is talking about:
http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/rule/pubs/2011/Rule_etal%282011_PSci%29.pdf
Women correctly guessed sexual orientation on average about 63% of the time, which based on the article methodology actually represents only about 13% better than chance guessing (50%). So while there seem to be some visual cues that allow people *on average* to guess *slightly more accurately than chance*, on the whole the effect is fairly small, and nearly 40% of "gaydar" guesses are wrong.
Lobster at May 21, 2015 9:27 PM
@Lobster - true enough, but it shows there is something. As well, that study found women's accuracy was significantly greater the nearer they were to peak ovulation - so a women with romantic interest would likely be more accurate.
As well, in real life, one doesn't just look at a person, one also sees how they move, hears their voice, etc., which would provide additional clues and accuracy.
Snoopy at May 22, 2015 3:56 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2015/05/two-brokeback-g.html#comment-6025792">comment from LobsterA friend and I were on the phone the other night and we mentioned a guy we know who seems, well, flamingly gay. He is not. He's straight. I'm glad he mentioned dating women to me because I would have mentioned something to him at some point about dating men. And no, he's not hiding his "real" sexuality.
Amy Alkon at May 22, 2015 8:10 AM
The lady is married. So it's a moot point whether she likes women as well as men, or whether or not she's attracted to LW.
JT at May 25, 2015 8:06 AM
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