Ben Hurry
I'm a woman in my 40s, and I've been happily married for 22 years. Unfortunately, my husband and I have never been very compatible sexually. I had read so much Cosmo in college that I believed sex was something we could work on. Well, he is quick in the sack and uninterested in my pleasure. It's been two decades of "Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am," and our old four minutes of intercourse now lasts for about two. And yes, I have asked him to attend to my needs -- for years. He just blows me off. He's always been satisfied, so he is not motivated to change. After a particularly quick encounter this morning left me feeling used, my thought was that I need a divorce. I'm distraught to think this way. Is there another option?
--Unsatisfied
Sex can sometimes be confusing, but timewise, it shouldn't leave you wondering whether you've been having it or poaching an egg.
There is only so much room for improvement if, in bed, two people go together like peanut butter and an oar. Still, Cosmo wasn't entirely wrong. Sexual technique can be tweaked at least somewhat by working on it -- that is, if both partners show up to the office and admit that there's a job to do. And then there's your husband, dead set on continuing to have sex on the "success in bank robbery" model: in and out before anybody knows what hit 'em.
Though your sex face is obviously a frown, the big issue here isn't bad sex; it's bad love. You don't seem to see it that way, perhaps due to "cognitive dissonance." That's social psychologist Leon Festinger's term for the psychological discomfort of simultaneously holding two conflicting views -- like the belief that you're worthy of love and the observation that your husband's about as attentive to you in bed as he is to the headboard. To smooth out an inconsistency like this, we typically grab for whichever explanation helps us feel good about ourselves -- which is maybe why you describe yourself as "happily married" to a man who acts like the clitoris is a rare exotic bird.
If, outside of bed, he's actually loving enough for you to want to fix this, you might say something like "I love you and want to save our marriage, but I feel deeply unloved whenever we have sex." Explain that if he isn't willing to take steps to change, you don't think you can stay with him. Specify the steps, like practice sessions in which you show him what you like and maybe some get-togethers with a sex therapist (a referee to call him on his sense of sexual entitlement).
Even if he were to agree to all of it, be realistic. Sex might start feeling more like being made love to than being bumped into by a naked man, but it's unlikely to ever be mind-blowing or anything close. Still, you might be happy if you just see that he cares enough to make an effort in bed -- one leisurely enough that you don't expect it to be followed by "meep meep!" and a cartoon cloud of dust.
I have no sympathy for women who wait two decades to complain about the sex, the LW didnt.
Likewise I have little sympathy for anyone who spend that much time complaining but never taking any steps to fix it.
I'm normally not one to advocate cutting off sex, but this is the exception that proves the rule, if he doesnt care about your pleasure why should you care about his?
Cut him off until he agrees to
1. Counseing with a therapist who also deals with sex
&
2. He gives you 25 orgasms with nothing but his tounge
lujlp at February 23, 2016 5:53 PM
Also, this is why we invent power tools
lujlp at February 23, 2016 5:54 PM
"1. Counseing with a therapist who also deals with sex
&
2. He gives you 25 orgasms with nothing but his tounge"
Great. Now confession is for sex, too.
Stephan at February 23, 2016 6:08 PM
What lujlp said. Maybe a few nights on the couch will get him into a better frame of mind.
I will bet a milk cow wouldn't treat LW this way.
mpetrie98 at February 23, 2016 9:20 PM
Aw come on guys!
After 20 years this 'technique' is now ingrained in his muscle memory so good luck on him changing.
Additionally, if after 20 years she has not figured out "what" pleases her then "power tools" will put her off (and not in 'that' way).
I suggest she "train" him into giving her "loving" massages before sex as well as "tokens" the next day of how special the night was (I know but ...).
Perhaps just perhaps some intimacy will come back into her life (realize "intimacy" for him is probably the feelings he has when he sees a "Tool Time" episode he hasn't seen before).
Baby steps please, and give the lady a push towards discovering what a lot of guys out learn after marriage/kids.
Bob in Texas at February 24, 2016 6:01 AM
Tounge?
What's that? One of them things them Frenchies figured out? Does it need batteries? I think I might have sprained my tounge back in college, with that there hippie girl.
alittlesense at February 24, 2016 7:02 AM
IMO, bad sex is usually a symptom of a bad relationship. There's a lot more going on here than just insufficient orgasms.
Cousin Dave at February 24, 2016 7:07 AM
And this is why some of us opt for polyamory. I love my husband to death, and when we have sex it's great . . . but he could be happy with once a month or less (antidepressants mainly, and just a lower drive). I'm more of a once in the morning once in the evening, and all day on Arbor Day and bank holidays. We compromise with my having a boyfriend I see once a week (well, twice if you count swing dance night, which is not a euphemism! Just another thing my husband isn't into but is secure enough not to mind my doing with another dude.)
We also have threesomes occasionally just to mix it up, which seems to do wonders for the ol' low male sex drive! I know everyone says, Oh open relationships never last," and that could be true. We just passed our 25-year anniversary (together 30 years, married 25) and it could all fall apart at any second! Just gonna enjoy all the fantastic sex right up until then . . .
/steps off soapbox. Yes, I know open relationships aren't for everyone, I genuinely believe some people are naturally monogamous, but I also believe some of us aren't, and when everything else is perfect except a mismatch in sex drives (which doesn't sound like the case for the LW, but it it were), it seems silly *not* to consider opening it up. As it were.
Anathema at February 24, 2016 7:30 AM
@Anathema - it may be great for you, but every guy is thinking your husband is cuckold
Snoopy at February 24, 2016 8:08 AM
Awe man, I feel really bad for the LW. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she wasn't that experienced before her husband, possibly a virgin. Nothing wrong with that, but it can lock you into a relationship for life that sexually is not balanced and you didn't even know it for a very, very long time. That's why, lujlp, it can take so long to speak up. Cause you didn't really know any better. And she has been speaking up, he's just been ignoring her like she's a mosquito buzzing in his ear about it. Therapy for her. Methinks more is out of balance than just the bedroom and maybe counseling will open her eyes to it. He'll never set foot in in a counselor's office.
gooseegg at February 24, 2016 8:39 AM
"I have asked him to attend to my needs -- for years. He just blows me off. He's always been satisfied, so he is not motivated to change."
Stop satisfying him.
I have been with men who ignored my pleasure, or treated it as an extra. When I stated that I would not continue and made a full stop, it changed right away. Almost like they could see what before they couldn't see.
Also, this is passive aggressive behavior. Men know what they are doing when they ignore the clitoris. It's selfish and withholding.
This seems more like issues of power than mismatched sex styles.
Zina at February 24, 2016 10:27 AM
Zina, if the the genders were reversed would you think of it as a power thing? Mrs. Slow has been the lw's husband for years (decades?) now. Even in the passionate, early decade, when she couldn't keep her hands off me, she was always very conservative. Now, she is still very willing for two times a week sex. But she wants the lw's husband - two minutes of missionary without complete nudity would be her ideal. It is not about power, it is about her comfort level with intimacy.
And, like the lw, it is absolutely killing our marriage. I travel to a vacation spot for work, for weeks at a time. I'm very fit and apparently attractive enough to attract women. I've found myself tempted to seek out someone else, and I am afraid I'll become the man I don't want to be. I'm sure the lw is afraid of becoming what she doesn't want to be.
lw, if you haven't already had the conversation about what you need, and I haven't yet, then have it. I don't mean complain, that only leads to fights and resentment. I mean, "Honey, I need X, Y, and z. I can not live without them. Either you willingly provide them (nothing is a bigger turn-off than someone making a yuck face at a reasonable request) or we agree to another solution that provides me those things." That solution could be polyamory or splitting, that depends on the people involved, I suppose, but it has to be above board and honest.
SlowMindThinking at February 24, 2016 11:24 AM
@Anathema "he could be happy with once a month or less (antidepressants mainly, and just a lower drive)"
Just a suggestion, if you want to improve this, you could consider trying one of the newer non-SSRI AD's, e.g. Agomelatine aka Valdoxan/Melitor/Thymanax - this doesn't lower sex drive.
I am not a doctor, I just know of it because I used it myself (for this exact reason - I could never give up on my sex drive and sex life, and SSRIs left me feeling uninterested in sex ... I hated the idea that I might wake up one day old and realize I wasted my prime years not having much sex ... enjoying a healthy sex life is important to me).
Anyway I suggest he ask his doctor about the above if it worries him.
asdfg at February 24, 2016 11:48 AM
@SlowMindThinking "And, like the lw, it is absolutely killing our marriage ... I'm very fit and apparently attractive enough to attract women"
If I may ask, why do you stay with her? Do you have kids with her? Or (I guess, given your other comments) you're considering leaving if it doesn't improve?
Honestly if she's not interested in sex with you (good, passionate sex) and you are fit and attractive to attract women who are interested, then my suggestion would be to find someone else and leave. I don't think a man should have to accept mediocre 'duty sex' .. a wife should give her husband her sexual best.
Life's too short to waste one's prime years having bad sex.
asdfg at February 24, 2016 12:04 PM
Anathema - it may be great for you, but every guy is thinking your husband is cuckold
Posted by: Snoopy at February 24, 2016 8:08 AM
When you get old enough to stop worrying about what other people think, you can do a lot of things without any guilt at all, that make you and your husband very happy.
Isab at February 24, 2016 12:21 PM
Life's too short to waste one's prime years having bad sex.
I would change this to: Life's too short to waste any years having bad sex.
I have so many questions about this marriage: Were they having sex with each other before the walk down the aisle? Did Cosmo really make her think sex was something that could be worked on, or did it give her false illusions of sex and/or intimacy according to Cosmo (that is the worst magazine for real life advise!)? Also, that whole intimacy thing is a two-way street. Don't expect to get something out that you aren't putting in. Model what it is you want in the bedroom. You want your clit taken care of, make sure you're taking care of everything for him and vice versa. I like a lot of touch and caresses, so I make sure that I'm reaching out and stroking, caressing or just simply touching my S.O. when we're together. It comes back to me in spades.
My last bit of advice for the LW - learn to give the man a proper blow job. I have found that nothing brings a man to his knees and makes him more willing to please than that.
sara at February 24, 2016 12:38 PM
A thousand bonus points to Amy for knowing that the Road Runner says "meep", not "beep"!
Treadwell at February 24, 2016 1:34 PM
When you get old enough to stop worrying about what other people think, you can do a lot of things without any guilt at all, that make you and your husband very happy.
Posted by: Isab at February 24, 2016 12:21 PM
"Today there are cutesy synonyms like ‘poly’ to describe a woman who believes it’s in her multiple lovers’, as well as her own, mutual interests that they obligate themselves to what really amounts to her attention, emotional and sexual needs independent of each guy who fulfills that role for her. The problem arises in the degree of investment those men believe that an above board ‘poly’ woman will be able to appreciate.
The cuckoldry Devil is in the details; and in this case that Devil is in the perceived ‘agreement’ and who’s doing the agreeing. Contemporary Open Cuckoldry and the social conventions of ‘free love’ era faux-idealisms in ‘open relationships’ work in tandem today to promote the sexual selection strategy of women’s Hypergamy.
Cuckoldry, in its most visceral, Hypergamous sense, favors women because there is no margin for error on a man’s part. Bear in mind that an ‘open’ relationship only serves a woman’s sexual imperative because she benefits from comfort, rapport, security and likely provisioning of the primary man with whom she’s come to this agreement with. In all honesty I’ve rarely met a guy in an open relationship who wasn’t a Beta at the mercy of his wife or LTR’s proliferative phase, Alpha Fucks, Hypergamous impulses.
Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves.
From:
http://therationalmale.com/2015/12/16/open-relationships/
Snoopy at February 24, 2016 2:50 PM
"Most of them understand their optionless condition and resign themselves to the women they’ve committed to, wanting to, and acting on fucking more suitably, conventionally, masculine men than themselves."
I'm sure you know exactly what motivates absolutely everyone to chose the lifestyle they want, but the general trends are really poor at explaining specific situations.
Most marriages aren't about sex at all or they cease to be about sex after the kids are grown.
Again. And to reiterate my point. I don't care what you or anyone else * thinks* of my lifestyle choices, which are probably more conventional, and more in line with conventional Christian morality than yours.
I don't fuck around, not because it would hurt my husband,nor my marriage, but because I don't do recreational sex, for many other reasons.
Intimate contact with people I neither know well nor trust, is not something I do.
It is more risky than drinking from that stream below the septic tank outlet.
The letter writer apparently hasn't had any real communication with her husband for twenty some years, or this situation would have been fixed.
Isab at February 24, 2016 3:23 PM
@asdfg
Why haven't I left? I almost left 10 years ago for many reasons, but decided to stay and work on things. (Yes, I have kids, but the youngest two are in college.) Everything else has improved tremendously, and actually the sex has too. What was once desultory, duty sex 3 times a month is now 2-3 times a week with active participation on her part.
I read a book, and I think she read it too, which recommended trying sex at his frequency and her comfort level. I have been trying to accept her limitations. I now know I can't do that, I need more, so it must change.
I haven't had the conversation yet, because I've been traveling a lot, and I want to talk to some good friends first. and it is just hard to hurt someone you love. In many ways, it is easier to hurt myself. I know I can't continue like this, because on my last trip, I succumbed to temptation and had the best kisses and best sex of my life with a gorgeous woman. I want that.
So, I think I understand the lw very well.
SlowMindThinking at February 24, 2016 6:29 PM
If you subscribe to Heinlein's definition of love, it is apparent that the LW isn't his.
She has plenty of company, but/and needs to move on.
Radwaste at February 24, 2016 7:09 PM
"haven't had the conversation yet, because I've been traveling a lot, and I want to talk to some good friends first. and it is just hard to hurt someone you love. In many ways, it is easier to hurt myself. I know I can't continue like this, because on my last trip, I succumbed to temptation and had the best kisses and best sex of my life with a gorgeous woman. I want that."
Of course you want that. A bit of strange is really really hot, but it doesn't last, it is like a drug fix.
So let me ask you this, how many people are you willing to hurt and abandon, in order to have a hot sex life?
The answer for me, is *none*
I know at least three men who left their wife after many years for some hot sex.
Every single one said it was the worst mistake they ever made.
You will too. Bank on it.
Isab at February 24, 2016 7:26 PM
Nearly did the same Slow but lucky for me it did not work out.
The 'lady' I was going with later said that from her experience adultery was "like eating a potato chip - you just could not stop at one". For her repeating history was unattractive so she got pregnant w/her husband and moved on.
Suggest you think about the possibility of 'slowing down' as you age and who you want to age with.
Growing old ain't for whimps and a sympathetic friend/partner is hard to find when things are not going your way.
Besides, " What was once desultory, duty sex 3 times a month is now 2-3 times a week with active participation on her part." indicates that your pity me attitude might be a problem you should work on w/o screwing up a relationship where your partner has more than met you halfway.
Feed the beast you want to be not the one that is destroying your happiness w/a good thing.
Bob in Texas at February 25, 2016 2:41 AM
@Anathema - it may be great for you, but every guy is thinking your husband is cuckold
To quote Dan Savage "If my husband is committing adultery at one end of a guy and I am at the other of the same guy, is it adultery?". I don't consider out threesome to be cheating on either of our parts, though if cuckolding is your fantasty, good for you. Just not my jam.
And as for the one-on-one stuff, I always encourage him to date other people, he's just not as motivated. He had one long-tine girlfriend whom I just adore. Sadly, she was long-distance which was actually probably good given his lower sex drive (they could have lots of hot Skype sessions, and then a few visits a year with her coming here or him visiting her in the midwest). But like many long-distance things, it ran its course. He's dated a few other folks locally, and has a semi-active OKCupid profile, but really he's kind of happier with online flirting and the occasional OKCupid or Tinder date.
I realize that sounds creepy and unfair--I get sex with a third party once a week or so, he only does every few months. You'll just have to trust me that that's what his drive is happy with. If it wasn't, we'd be going out to more swing parties and poly events and actively looking for a girlfriend for him, but he's just sort of happy with the lower level. I think for people with high sex drives, it's inconceivable that someone could be happy with a lower level, but it does seem that there is a range of sex drives, and those who claim to have a lower one aren't lying just to annoy us!
P.S. Iasb--sounds like you might be into cuckolding, and I'm not being negative, really! As a fetish it just doesn't turn my crank, but there are lots of kinks that i don't get, doesn't make them wrong just . . . not the way my brain is wired. If you and your partner are digging it, rock on!
Anathema at February 25, 2016 6:33 AM
P.S. Iasb--sounds like you might be into cuckolding, and I'm not being negative, really! As a fetish it just doesn't turn my crank, but there are lots of kinks that i don't get, doesn't make them wrong just . . . not the way my brain is wired. If you and your partner are digging it, rock on!
Posted by: Anathema at February 25, 2016 6:33 AM
I'm lucky. I just have a totally non sexually jealous husband. We had our flings but that was many years ago.
We ran into a spot of trouble with a woman who really really was looking to bail on her marriage, and thought my husband should be into the same. He wasn't.
I have reached the point in life, where I'm just not interested in recreational sex.
I have no interest in being intimate with someone I don't love, and trust.
When I was younger I found that three people in one bed was too many for me to be comfortable with. I am easily distracted....
Most of my friends are men. I have one very close friend, whom I love very much. Would be happy to have him with me, and my husband most of the time, but this is something he just doesn't seem to be able to reconcile with his traditional values, so we remain, just close platonic friends.
Isab at February 25, 2016 9:38 AM
@Isab and @Bob, yes, I'm sure being strange made it more exciting, as did the illicit nature of it, frankly. However, when I say the sex is better and my wife seems happy to comply, that doesn't make it good, or even healthy. Have you gone through 30 years without a kiss that was more than a peck? (Near Valentine's Day, I heard on the radio that kisses lasting at least 0.6 seconds provide bonding. That ain't happened in over 30 years.) Every time is no foreplay, missionary, with no more clothes removed on her part than physically necessary, and almost never being allowed to touch with your hands? She wants Ben Hurry, and that ain't me. It's not so much wanting hot sex, as having a normal, healthy sex life. Exactly the same as the letter writer.
I also realize that finding someone who genuinely cares about you, you can live with without driving each other nuts, and all the things that go into a successful marriage, is hard to find. That's why I don't especially want to leave, although its not like we're perfect for each other in every other way. (It's just that we've more successfully coped with our other incompatibilities.)
What I truly need is healthy and natural sex life. That without it, I'll become a man neither of my wife nor I likes, prowling on my many trips. Whether she agrees to therapy to deal with her issues, internally resolves those issues, or we split; something has to change. (Frankly, I don't think I could deal with an open marriage, even if it was just me allowed to roam. That is also not me.) She drastically changed before, from acting like she despised me even if we weren't fighting to acting like she truly loves me even if we were, so it is possible. However, in the other areas, our kids could weigh in. And I don't know why she finds perfectly natural behaviors like a caress distasteful, so my hopes aren't really high.
SlowMindThinking at February 25, 2016 12:50 PM
Well good luck Slow 'cause you are in between a rock and a hard place on this one.
Wish there was some easy answer other than "She's got some issues to work on." but I guess you need to decide what "issues" you can live with 'cause this is a train wreck no matter what you decide.
Take care. Take your time. Ask her what she wants. (In my case w/similar issues she wanted out.)
Bob in Texas at February 25, 2016 1:46 PM
Wow, did this thread get heavy...
"antidepressants mainly, and just a lower drive."
Just out of curiosity, has he tried Wellbrutin? If so, what did he think of it?
Cousin Dave at February 25, 2016 1:50 PM
Monogamy shouldn't mean celibacy or a lifetime of bad sex. It's a pretty important thing to a happy marriage IMO. Not being sexually compatible isn't sustainable in the long term. Someone is going to be unhappy and resentful, eventually poisoning the parts if the marriage that work.
JT at February 25, 2016 4:19 PM
Monogamy shouldn't mean celibacy or a lifetime of bad sex. It's a pretty important thing to a happy marriage IMO. Not being sexually compatible isn't sustainable in the long term. Someone is going to be unhappy and resentful, eventually poisoning the parts if the marriage that work.
Posted by: JT at February 25, 2016 4:19 PM
Hate to burst your bubble JT, but nothing in tons of evolutionary research on human beings indicates that men are naturally monogamous.
This is why powerful men have most often been polygamous, with lots of sex on the side.
As far as not being sexually compatible there are many worse incompatibilities in a marriage.
Also if one party becomes extremely ill or disabled doesn't mean, you divorce their ass so you can have a meaningful monogamous sexual relationship with someone else.
People, especially single men sometimes go for years without sexual intercourse. Last I checked, there isn't any constitutional right to sex.
Values are what hold a relationship together, and if you have none, please don't make a commitment like marriage to begin with.
Isab at February 25, 2016 6:27 PM
Last I checked, there isn't any constitutional right to sex.
Last I checked, there isn't any constitutional right to fidelity either
lujlp at February 25, 2016 8:25 PM
Sara, I disagree, I firmly believe a good blow job is the last thing this cad needs. Cause he's never going to reciprocate that. Good gosh why on earth would this girl get on her knees for this selfish prick?
gooseegg at February 25, 2016 10:36 PM
Sara, I disagree, I firmly believe a good blow job is the last thing this cad needs. Cause he's never going to reciprocate that. Good gosh why on earth would this girl get on her knees for this selfish prick?
gooseegg at February 25, 2016 10:36 PM
I just want to say GREAT comments.
If you take a psych drug sex is a thing that exists but you're not particularly interested in. This goes for both men and women. If you have a smart spouse they will either accommodate themselves with others quietly or be ok with going through very long stretches of celibacy without being whiny bitch about it.
A severely depressed spouse is about as useful as a potato. If they are good partners otherwise and if a pill resolves the issue you both need to take a practical approach to sex, whatever that means to both of you. Otherwise get divorced.
Ppen at February 26, 2016 8:03 AM
Cut him off until he agrees to ...
Stop right there. Bad idea. Very bad idea. Ranks among the top ten of worst ideas ever...
If you think their marriage has problems now, just wait until he starts looking elsewhere to get his needs met. Or, he may decide to seek a divorce on his own. Cutting off sex is grounds for divorce.
Amy's advice was spot on, and cutting someone off is never a good idea. Never.
I would think that last week's letters column would have clued you into that fact.
Patrick at February 27, 2016 6:58 PM
Patrick, its one thing to cut off your boyfriend of a few months with the ultimatum do what I say or we never see each other again.
It something else entirely to do it to a spouse who has ignored your needs for over two decades until they are willing to have a discussion
lujlp at February 27, 2016 11:25 PM
You know what every single guy on earth is into? Talking dirty. So, talk dirty to him during the day and drop lines about how wet you are thinking about him doing XYZ. Or let him watch you pleasuring yourself, and talk dirty about what you're imagining him doing to you or something.
That's my advice.
NicoleK at February 28, 2016 6:58 AM
Would he last through the title credits of a porn movie?
Bob in Texas at February 28, 2016 3:42 PM
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