All In A Day's Jerk
I'm a happily married 30-year-old woman. A co-worker pointed out a senior trainer at work constantly sneaking lustful glances at me. I was later assigned to his section. We quickly became close friends, and he began mentoring me. He's married, too, with two children, so though we were extremely flirtatious, nothing inappropriate ever happened, and I told my husband about him. Recently, there were rumors that this man and I were hooking up. He freaked, saying he could lose everything, and cut off our mentorship and our friendship. This was a real slap in the face, as was learning that he'd never told his wife about me. Should I confront him about how bad it feels to be cut off by him?
--Betrayed
Workers' comp covers many on-the-job accidents -- but unfortunately not the kind where a married man slips and falls into his co-worker's vagina.
Granted, that isn't what happened here. But you don't have to have the fun to have the fallout, which is why some execs now avoid having closed-door meetings with opposite-sex co-workers. Also consider that when somebody has a lot to lose, they have a lot to fear. We all hope for life-changing experiences, but it's best if they aren't getting fired, going through a bitter divorce, and having the ex-wife drop off the kids on alternating weekends: "Okay, boys, time to put down the Xbox and go visit your dad at the homeless shelter!"
And no, he never announced to his wife, "Hey, honey, I'm mentoring this total hotbody. There's a rumor that we're hooking up. Believe me, I wish we were..." Of course, he wouldn't say that, but he probably senses what psychologist Paul Ekman has found -- that we tend to "leak" what we're really feeling through facial expressions and body language (especially if these include Gollum-like panting and slobbering: "Must. Have. The. Precious").
You probably understand this intellectually. But the sting from being socially amputated comes out of what psychologist Donna Hicks, an international conflict resolution specialist, deems a "dignity violation." Hicks describes dignity as "an internal state of peace" we feel from being treated as if we have value and our feelings matter. Because we evolved as a cooperative species and reputation was essential to our remaining in our ancestral band, we react to threats to our dignity as we would threats to our survival.
You patch up your dignity not by marching around all butthurt while waiting for him to repair it but by calmly taking the initiative. Tell him that you miss having him as a friend and mentor -- but that you understand. Counterintuitively, you should find that being the bigger one makes you feel better. Acting like the antithesis of the scorned work wife should help him ease up, too. Though it's unlikely that things will go back to how they were, he should at least stop treating you like poison ivy in career separates.
Extremely flirtatious is inappropriate between two otherwise married people. Obviously there was more going on and people noticed, even if it hadn't gotten physical yet. You're just pissed because he has "dumped" you before his wife could find out what a couple a sleaze bags you two were acting like.
Stormy at June 7, 2016 5:15 PM
Maybe LW could write a poem expressing her FEELINGS.
She's so into herself that she has no concern for her mentor's professional or personal life.
Good thing she likes and respects him or he'd really be in trouble. A few tears and he's on the street in a lot of ways.
It's a shame but when a woman smiles at a man his body chemistry just short circuits and logic goes out the window.
Bob in Texas at June 7, 2016 5:33 PM
First of Amy gave me great advice that helped me immensely and several months later, this person is still my "best friend at work", in a business that promotes that exact thing.
For what it's worth - HE also acted as though he "[had] no concern for [his] professional or personal life" (-BOB), until I informed him of this situation and then over the course of several months and further conversations, when HIS behavior didn't change, finally made it clear to him what this could do to us. He "dumped" me later but in a really meaningless way while still continuing to show me (unambiguously) that he wants me in his life.
Acknowledging our mistakes and what our relationship actually is and deciding that neither one of us wanted to implode our marriages, was freeing. We've moved on.
Letter writer here at June 7, 2016 6:52 PM
So dont give us the bullshit anout how "nothing innapproriate" ever happened. It was all innapproriate. Obviously it was if you were about to implode your marriages.
Stormy at June 7, 2016 7:51 PM
No, we absolutely were acting inappropriately! Thus the need for acknowledging and correcting. Those are Amy's words there and she is trying to indicate nothing physically inappropriate happened. While we were certaintly toeing a line, we never crossed it.
Letter writer here at June 7, 2016 8:03 PM
I once had a married boss with whom I used to exchange somewhat flirtatious/sexual innuendo-type wisecracks. We both liked wordplay, but believe me, that was it. I was single but he was definitely not my type -- the thought of sex with him was unappealing. I know he felt the same; the type of women he considered hot were totally different from me. Some co-workers told me some people believed we were having an affair, but since we weren't and wouldn't, I didn't care what people thought. This was at a major corporation back in the 1980s; whether this would be an HR problem now, I don't know.
Helen Highwater at June 8, 2016 6:02 AM
LW,
Glad it all worked out but both of you acted inappropriately for adults (assuming you are older than 21 - more hormones than sense).
Since it appears that it took you "months" of conversations to get him to step away I think you should have recognized that his marriage/professional lives/friendship were in conflict and asked to be reassigned to another senior trainer. It's what adults do.
Bob in Texas at June 8, 2016 6:13 AM
Right, Bob - I've clearly stated we did act inappropriately.
This person is not above me, we are in the same position, he's just been in the role longer, thus the mentorship was completely informal, HR was not involved at all, the only people who really knew about it other than the two of us were our boss and my husband. That's why ending the mentorship was a mostly meaningless gesture but one I can now appreciate because it's allowed us to know where we stand with each other.
Since we are both in same position, there is no way we could avoid working together and therefore other than recognizing and correcting the behaviors (which we have done), the only other option is to change career paths and both of us are exactly where we want to be right now.
I'm certainly not trying to excuse our behavior, but this is a relationship that has meant a great deal to me and to him and while I wasn't trying to have it ruin our marriages, I also wasn't willing to throw it away just because we weren't quite on the same page yet.
Letter writer here at June 8, 2016 6:48 AM
Wow, LW. You really do need to have the last word in every discussion, don't you? And that was my impression BEFORE reading the comments..
bkmale at June 8, 2016 6:54 AM
I like it when the LWs jump in and elaborate. It's a reminder that the questions we see are condensed and that Amy is doing great behind-the-scenes work with the real people who write to her. This is why I read these columns, instead of those written by certain columnists who clearly feature questions their interns made up.
I am of the mind that any kind of workplace flirting is inappropriate, but it happens, and it seems to me LW took responsibility.
sofar at June 8, 2016 8:54 AM
"... this is a relationship that has meant a great deal to me and to him and while I wasn't trying to have it ruin our marriages, I also wasn't willing to throw it away just because we weren't quite on the same page yet."
Good that you both have moved on, BUT (sorry) look at the above. You were not willing to do the "right" thing for months when he was clueless/unable/dense? because YOU wanted your cake and to eat it as well.
Wow. Over the course of months, months you were the strong one w/o being strong (knowing the situation could not continue as it had and fixing it before permanent harm was done).
If his friendship was really that important to you you would have stopped enabling him and gone cold turkey, professional contact only.
Glad it all worked out but I think you should walk back a bit and look at this situation through the eyes of "what would have been best for everyone and not just me". There's more to this than just a workplace relationship.
Good luck and goodbye.
Bob in Texas at June 8, 2016 10:40 AM
Interesting. We don't usually hear from letter writers, but also bear in mind, as both Amy and your friend hinted, men lose much more in a failed marriage.
I don't think men should marry at all, but that's a different conversation.
He will lose the home, the kids, half his income, all of his retirement, investments and savings. And who gains all these things? His ex-wife.
This explains the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement. Men are recognizing that marriage is a trap. Of course, women prefer to get married. Marriage enriches them financially and divorce enriches them further.
Patrick at June 8, 2016 2:51 PM
Boy that wasn't my case. There were no assets to speak of in my divorce and I'm doing better now financially (same job) than I was married with sometimes 2 incomes (he got fired/quit a lot), with one kid in college, one in high school, and $80 per week child support. Make of that what you will. Basically I didn't marry one of those unicorns you speak of - men with stable incomes and assets. I know of no women in my circle who have been better because of divorce. Usually it means bankruptcy and find a better job quick cause it just got real and the ex is job hopping to avoid paying support. God help you if you were an idiot and didn't work at all, cause now you have no job skills with 15-20 years of no work experience. Divorce ain't the grand money maker, in my socioeconomic circle anyway.
gooseegg at June 8, 2016 10:03 PM
Same in my circle goossegg. Divorce meant as a woman you are poor as fuck and shit out of luck. Alot of the women I knew growing up (when I was poor) supported the men financially or worked just hard as equal partners.
The women who fit the stereotype of taking half a man's assets were upper-middle class and these women were always coddled by their spouses.
What alot of these mens rights groups fail to realize is that men who earn significant money and have assets often choose to marry women who have zero ambition. Like you know what her earning potential is before you marry her so why should I give a fuck? I mean you often hear men say "lol we don't care how ambitious you are. We just really care about looks". Well fuck then, why should I care you marry women who can't make their own dime? I don't and I don't care what the courts do to you.
Marriage is first and foremost a financial contract.
Ppen at June 9, 2016 4:02 AM
I only know of one woman who enriched herself by screwing over her husband, and it was certainly easy to see it coming. I'm in a stable marriage, and plan to stay that way, but I'll throw in here that I make just as much money as my husband, and pay more than half of the bills. I spend extra money on our kids, he buys projects. And frankly, if we were on the typical child custody arrangement that you see for divorced parents (one weekday and every other weekend), he'd be taking care of the kids significantly more than he does now. Some of the divorcees I know are doing better financially since they've been single, but it's because they've focused more on their careers and are in a better place mentally, not because they "made money" in a divorce.
*
Anyway, regarding workplace flirtations- Just don't. If you find that you've got the hots for someone you work with, you need to keep in super-professional and not spend time alone together. If you have a hard time resisting temptation, you need to avoid it.
ahw at June 9, 2016 8:01 AM
Basically I didn't marry one of those unicorns you speak of - men with stable incomes and assets.
I am a woman who out-earns her soon-to-be husband. My husband-to-be is a serial entrepreneur. He wins some, loses some. We plan for this, mainly by me holding down a stable career and keeping our finances separate. I have made my decision and done my damndest to be smart about it, and you won't see me whining that my husband "Ruuuuined my liiiiiiife!" if we do get divorced.
Men Going Their Own Way movement? I know more women than men in my social circles who have decided marriage just isn't worth it. Why would they enter an arrangement where they are still tasked with most of the daily house work/child-rearing responsibilities/scheduling labor AND still have to work long hours to keep the house afloat financially when their husband decides he's just not "fulfilled" with his middle-aged wife? In my generation it's called 'People just not getting married.' MGTOW must be a thing that the olds do?
sofar at June 9, 2016 8:27 AM
I know more women than men in my social circles who have decided marriage just isn't worth it. Why would they enter an arrangement where they are still tasked with most of the daily house work/child-rearing responsibilities/scheduling labor AND still have to work long hours to keep the house afloat financially when their husband decides he's just not "fulfilled" with his middle-aged wife?
This.
This gets hugely ignored by MRA/MGTOW. I often came home from work - having already been up for 12 hours - and still had to cook, clean, feed the pets (that HE insisted we keep), etc. Never had time to exercise, socialize, or treat myself to an occasional mani/pedi or massage. I always had to remind him about the social calendar, as well as purchase gifts for his family member when holidays, birthdays and special occasions rolled around. Chores at home didn't get done unless I did it, regardless of how many conversations we had about splitting up some of the duties. He didn't understand why I was often grumpy...but working 12 hours and then coming home to do additional work can be exhausting. Sex dwindled and it was one excuse after another and
I don't consider myself a feminist, but the notion of the second shift when the husband and wife both work is indeed alive and true.
After we split up, he immediately got into a relationship with someone 15 years younger. 1 year later, he finds out she was sleeping around with other younger, hot bodied guys while they were dating. She just wanted a meal ticket and he fit the older middle-aged guy soft-around-the-waistline-but-hopes-he's-still-got-it stereotype. I was sympathetic as a friend when I found out, but I knew she was skanky when they got together and turns out I was spot on. As my dad says, "it's the fucking ya get for the fucking ya got."
I myself stayed single, worked on my own flaws that led to our split, and only dated to meet new people. I am now with someone - ironically, 15 years older. He's an amazing partner, much more helpful than my ex ever was in all ways. And even though he wants to take care of me financially, I insist on being independent and being equally partnered. He's incredibly considerate when it comes to chores, even though he always had live in help when he was previously married. He's verbally expressive of how beautiful he finds me, constantly brings me flowers, and we enjoy each other's company.
I consider myself extremely fortunate that I met my guy. I wasn't planning on ever being in a relationship after the divorce. I enjoyed my freedom and the simplicity of the single life too much, even in my forties. But I believe that you ultimately reap what you sow. These days, it seems that many first marriages don't work out, but you can't stay bitter.
vilipsen at June 10, 2016 9:58 AM
I've seen it go both ways. A friend (now ex-friend) of my mom's was a golddigger. She married and divorced three times, received alimony from them and lived high on the hog: big house, big car, fancy clothes, vacations in Europe, the whole bit. I've also seen women who married men who skipped out on them, became shiftless, didn't pay support and wanted no contact with the children. On the third hand, I've known women who divorced and were poor because they were irresponsible with the support payments. I had a friend in junior high whose mom drank her support checks. He had a scholarship to a private school, which he lost because his mom couldn't be arsed to get out of bed and take him to school in the morning.
It's been my observation that divorce generally rewards the irresponsible party, whichever one it is. However, it's also true that the current state of law and culture makes marriage, in general, a bad bet for men. If feminists want men to "man up", they are going to have to work to establish a legal and social culture that doesn't make it much more advantageous for men to remain single. So far, they are doing the opposite.
Cousin Dave at June 10, 2016 11:30 AM
All please note that claiming you don't know of anyone who got most of the assets in a divorce, to imply or claim that this does not happen, is fallacious. It's the Argument From Personal Incredulity. It's also provably wrong.
It happens, and it's often a matter of public record.
Radwaste at June 11, 2016 10:07 PM
Hey, OP, you home-wrecking skank:
Stop "heavily flirting" with married men. Your life will run better.
Christ. The entitlement on some people is astonishing.
Chester White at June 12, 2016 5:21 PM
So much reaching in this thread to try distract from the glaring fact that most the time, divorce favors women, and most the time, men get screwed.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Gender_and_divorce
"... women have filed slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the United States"
"Regarding divorce settlements, according to the 2004 Grant Thornton survey in the UK, women obtained a better or considerably better settlement than men in 60% of cases. In 30% of cases the assets were split 50-50, and in only 10% of cases did men achieve better settlements (down from 24% the previous year)"
www.forbes.com/sites/emmajohnson/2014/11/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/
"Of the 400,000 people in the United States receiving post-divorce spousal maintenance, just 3 percent were men"
www.jstor.org/stable/585506?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
"Based on previous research, it was expected that women would be less satisfied with their divorce settlements than men. A survey of over 400 divorced persons contradicts this hypothesis: Women indicate greater satisfaction with custody, visitation, financial (excepting child support), and property settlements"
@"I've also seen women who married men who skipped out on them, became shiftless, didn't pay support and wanted no contact with the children'
Sometimes when a man does this it's because she cheated and the kids aren't his. Such things are often kept secret for the sake of the kids ... other times it's because the women were physically abusive to the men ... one can seldom really judge fairly from the outside in these situations. But there's a tendency to assume the men are just assholes.
As for letter writer, if things had continued, eventually something would have "just happened - oops!" .. and then who knows, 9 months later hubby might have been wondering why his kid doesn't quite look like him.
Lobster at June 12, 2016 8:25 PM
"Well fuck then, why should I care you marry women who can't make their own dime? I don't and I don't care what the courts do to you."
ROTFLMAO!!! You know what? I don't care either!!! Damn that was funny. Thanks for the chuckle I really needed it!
lonnie93041 at July 26, 2016 10:40 PM
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