Tour Of Doody
I'm a 42-year-old divorcee, just back in the dating world and using dating apps. I have two young children, who live with me. I mentioned them in my profile at first, but I didn't get many replies, so I took them out. Is it okay not to disclose them there? And if I go out with a guy, when do I have to tell him? I'd like to wait till we build a bit of a relationship.
--More Than A Mom
When men say they "love surprises," they mean the sort involving an impromptu striptease, not where you wait till the sixth date to tell them that, no, that child seat actually isn't for your terrier.
Having kids shapes how you live. It isn't like some weird hobby you occasionally do on weekends, like roadkill taxidermy or yurt bedazzling. And sorry -- even if you're far prettier in person than in your profile photos, being "striking" is just a figure of speech; it's unlikely to cause a concussive brain injury in a man, leading to big personality changes that give him a sudden longing to stepdaddy up.
Not disclosing that you have kids until a guy is emotionally attached to you is what evolutionary psychologist David Buss calls "strategic interference" -- using tactics (including scammy ones) to try to get another person to go against their evolved interests. For example, it is not in a man's genetic interest to invest time, effort, and resources into another man's children, which is why men evolved to prefer women who do not already have children, as opposed to saying, "Well, she's got 12 kids...I'll take experience over 20-something hotitude any day!"
Our emotions are our internal police force. They evolved to protect and serve -- protecting us from allowing things that don't serve our interest. Your hiding that you have kids will make guys angry, including those who'd be interested in you, kids and all. The problem goes to character. If you're dishonest about this, what else will you be dishonest about?
The right thing to do in online dating is to give men who will ultimately reject you the info they need to do that right away -- keeping them from wasting their time and yours. (Otherwise, it's like seeking a new accountant by interviewing plumbers.) Being honest will narrow your pool -- down to those who are actual possibilities for you, like divorced dads who'd be open to Brady Bunch-ing. There are also a few kid-loving guys out there who never got around to having any and would find it a plus that you have some ready-made. All the better if some other guy's on the hook for the kids' private school, Ivy League educations, and wintering in rehab on St. Barts.
Yeah dating women with kids is tough, but later on, their parents become their kids... hence what is called the "sandwich generation".
We just can't win.
jefe at December 13, 2016 5:45 PM
No question it sucks, but ultimately, what choice do you have? You can either be up front about having kids so that some guys you find hot will not be interested, or you can date a hot guy a few times, drop the bomb, and watch him storm out in a rage.
It's a sad state she's in. Dads are important to raising happy, well-adjusted and successful kids. But the very fact that she has kids makes it unlikely that she'll find a man she likes who's willing to be a dad to someone else's kids.
Ben Shapiro likes to quote some source (I forget which one) which says there are three things to must do to virtually guarantee that you won't remain in poverty forever: 1) finish high school, 2) get a job, and 3) don't have kids before you're married.
Patrick at December 14, 2016 3:28 AM
LW is a fraud plain and simple. At the very least she is exceptionally self-centered to the extent that she is not actively looking for a DAD for her kids. (I will grant you that 42 she must be full of fear that "THIS IS IT?" and not thinking clearly.)
There are a lot of men (not "young" adults but men) that are looking for the "RIGHT" woman and are not concerned about raising kids. They WANT kids. Buyer beware on anything so she has the wrong "feelers" out and might miss out noticing that all he wants is a housekeeper and a brood mare.
These men may not be the "Brad Pitt"s that she is looking for but I hope she learns that the "right" person is the one that is kind, likes her, and says "I'll take 'em all.".
Bob in Texas at December 14, 2016 5:59 AM
LW is committing an egregious act of lying by omission. I know Amy advised her to be truthful in her profile, but her dishonesty in this matter could be a good thing for the guys who respond - they learn pretty quickly she lacks character. You have to wonder what other dishonest acts she might commit in a relationship.
tasha at December 14, 2016 8:18 AM
This may be one of those times when online dating won't work. By all means keep the profile up as back-up (WITH a notation that she's a mom), but maybe it would be better for LW to meet men through friends/family/church and other social groups. A man who might pass over her profile with a knee-jerk "no" might feel differently if LW is a person he gets to know naturally.
... kinda how like I would always pass over guys on internet dating sites who listed themselves as smokers (because I'd "Never" date a smoker) but ended up married to a guy who occasionally smokes because I got to know him through friends and saw the whole package (of which smoking was only part).
I only know a handful of former single parents, but those who are now married did NOT meet their spouses online, but through friends.
sofar at December 14, 2016 9:57 AM
Run with it.
Make your headline "Carol Martin seeks Mike Brady" to let guys know YOU are looking for guys with kids.
Half of profile writing is getting the reader to think, "ME! She means ME! Someone wants ME!!!!!!!!"
NicoleK at December 14, 2016 11:49 AM
It reminds me of an episode of Louis CK where he has a date with a lady. At the end of the evening, she confess him that she has kids, to which he replies no worry me too... she then go ballistic on him for hidding truth, being a liar. :)
Well, I personally a dude at the office that is with a woman with kids (not his), and is perfectly happy about not doing the poo phase, and most of the following.
nico@rei at December 14, 2016 2:46 PM
> I'd like to wait till we build a bit of a relationship
I'd be very angry for wasting so much of my time lying, and trying to get me to bond under false pretenses to make it harder to leave after finding out the truth, that seems manipulative. This is not OK at all.
Either someone is up for kids, or it's a maybe, or they're not - and the best time for everyone involved to filter out the 'not's' is 'as soon as possible'.
This smells to me like 'I didn't take care of my marriage properly because I thought it would be easy to find someone else and now I see that at 42yo + kids men aren't as interested as I thought they'd be'.
Lobster at December 15, 2016 5:21 AM
Honestly I'm asking, does it not occur to women who have children (young ones especially) that maybe it's best to put aside dating for the time being? (Regardless of how you ended up in that situation - perhaps the father/husband unfortunately passed away?) Is LW not busy enough trying to take care of things? How would one even have time for dating as a single mother of two kids? It all seems selfish to me.
Jess at December 15, 2016 12:00 PM
"Honestly I'm asking, does it not occur to women who have children ... It all seems selfish to me."
What about men with children? Still selfish? I honestly think sitting down to family dinner and a board game with step-mom-to-be is a lot better environment for the kids than we had during those selfless bachelor years of pizza and x-box.
My advice to the LW is instead of artfully cropping your photos and trimming your attribute strings just dial down the 'commitment' value until you get the volume of response you need. Once your self esteem rebounds move over to a more serious-minded site. If you're willing to change who you are to increase your appeal then you are not ready to choose a man to sit at the dinner table with those two young children.
smurfy at December 15, 2016 3:41 PM
Honestly I'm asking, does it not occur to women who have children (young ones especially) that maybe it's best to put aside dating for the time being? (Regardless of how you ended up in that situation - perhaps the father/husband unfortunately passed away?) Is LW not busy enough trying to take care of things? How would one even have time for dating as a single mother of two kids? It all seems selfish to me.
Honestly I'm asking, but you mention "women" specifically. Does this question apply to men who have children, too?
Now to your question: I'm friends with various parents (single and married) who use baby-sitters for all manner of "selfish" reasons (date nights, nights with friends, adult-only events, etc.). Most parents I know (single and married) do this roughly every other week or so (sometimes more, sometimes less) for several hours at a time. The kids are fine, and it's nice for the kid to have time around grannie/grampa/uncle/auntie/bestie or even a neighbor. I am a child of the 80s/90s and was baby-sat by the neighbors often while my parents went to play cards with friends (and my parents watched others' kids in return), even though I'm sure many of today's parents would not leave their child alone with someone who didn't have several degrees in "child enrichment" or somesuch.
There is a healthy middle ground between being out all night every night neglecting your kids -- and not dating at all.
sofar at December 15, 2016 3:52 PM
I like dating single mothers.
I tell them their kids come first, I have no interest in meeting them for at minimum a year, and until then we can have fun.
I get a fair amount of sex, they always try and push meeting their kids on me, I warn them to stop and explain how many prospective men I met who were dating my mother when I was a kid, they keep pushing it regardless and I break it off because they obviously dont care about my emotional needs or their own childrens well being and arent the type of person I could have a lasting relationship with anyway
lujlp at December 15, 2016 4:36 PM
Yes lujlp - that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying the woman shouldn't take time to herself, everyone needs that, and especially a woman with two young children - you have to stay healthy and taking time away can provide that. I'm saying that I don't think it's appropriate to be bringing men who aren't the father around. I'm talking about putting the children's emotional (and physical) well-being first. So yeah, if she can manage to keep the dating completely away from her kids and out of their space - mental, emotional, and physical, ok. I think easiest way to do that is to not focus on dating until the kids are out of the house. We all make our choices, and she made hers when she made her kids. Either they come first or they don't.
Oh, here's another one - good mamas give their babies good daddies.
Jess at December 15, 2016 5:31 PM
There are also a few kid-loving guys out there who never got around to having any and would find it a plus that you have some ready-made.
Me, for one. Never had kids of my own, but I've been a stepdad twice, enjoyed it both times, and have maintained cordial relationships with the kids involved (all now grown) long after breaking up with their moms. I'd happily do it again, though at my age the women I date have kids who are grown and gone.
Rex Little at December 16, 2016 12:06 AM
@"Honestly I'm asking, does it not occur to women who have children (young ones especially) that maybe it's best to put aside dating for the time being? ... How would one even have time for dating as a single mother of two kids? It all seems selfish to me"
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Parenthood is not a martyrdom and we must stop pushing this unhealthy idea that it is. It's gotten to the point where I call this idea a 'parenting cult' where anything less than 110% selfless devotion to 'the children' (cue angels singing) is considered bad and selfish etc. No. I see my ex-wife going down that road of not looking for a new partner and devoting all her time to our kids and it's not healthy, I actually urge her to date and find a new partner, it would help us all.
Firstly, every human being has needs (e.g. a loving partner, some time to self etc.) and pretending we should (or even can) sacrifice those needs 'for the kids' is a recipe for severe mental distress (depression, anxiety, burnout) - none of which are 'good for the kids'. Actually pretending we should ignore those needs is what destroys many marriages in the first place.
Secondly, a single mother of children needs not just love and support, but usually also financial help, and dating in order to secure a partner that can help contribute financially to the household, is also actually good for the children.
Third, a partner that is more well-supported (emotionally, financially, or both), is able to provide *better parenting* (e.g. due to being less strained, less stressed, have more time, more resources, can share parenting workload).
Fourth, Another person potentially bringing in income also means less stress for the overworked divorcee ex-husband who is helping support her kids too.
Fifth, it is good for kids to have a father figure around, to help provide support, discipline, guidance etc.
I am a 1000 times better father now (that I'm taking care of my own needs first) than I was in the dark times of my marriage that I was ignoring my basic needs 'for the kids'.
"Dating" when you're a parent is a little different than when you're young and childless, sure, obviously you have less time available, but that doesn't mean it's not do-able.
@lujlp "I tell them their kids come first, I have no interest in meeting them for at minimum a year ... they always try and push meeting their kids on me"
Your own experiences aside, I really disagree with this 'minimum a year' thing. If my ex-wife would start 'seriously' dating a man, I would want her to introduce him to my kids early on ... she can't wait a year just to *start* finding out how this person might be around our kids - it's really important you find early enough how someone is going to be around your kids, whether they'll enjoy being with the kids, how much time they'd be willing to spend with the kids, what kind of parent they might be, whether they get on with the kids ... a year? If I was a single mom and a man said he wouldn't meet my kids for at least a year, I'd assume he's not really serious about me but just playing or wanting sex, because if you're serious about dating a single mom, you presumably must be serious about adopting the role of step-parent too, especially if those kids are young. Who has the luxury of waiting a year just to *start* finding out how a partner is going to be with the most important thing of all, your kids?
Also, this must create logistical nightmares, how do you avoid even meeting the kids that long?
Also, it will send a message to the kids that dating is some weird secret that should be kept in the dark. The kids will figure out that something is going on, mom is meeting someone secretly, they can't know or why because it's (from their perspective) some weird big dark secret, just some mystery person mom secretly goes to meet and they don't know who it is or why they can't meet him .. I don't know, that's just weird to me.
Lobster at December 16, 2016 4:43 AM
@Jess "Either they come first or they don't"
In a certain loose sense kids always come first, but this is a fallacy of false choice. My kids are by far the most important thing to me. But I make it clear they do not 'always come first'. Good parenting *balances* the needs of EVERYONE involved. So no, single moms, you aren't required to become a nun 'until the kids are out the house and you are old and grey' - nor is it even good for the kids if you're depressed or burned out or constantly at your limit - parenting isn't a prison sentence. My daughters are happy and well-adjusted and well-behaved and everyone comments how happy they are, so we're doing something right.
Lobster at December 16, 2016 5:02 AM
So yeah, if she can manage to keep the dating completely away from her kids and out of their space - mental, emotional, and physical, ok.
Again, there's a healthy middle ground between dating -- and bringing home every random guy/woman you meet and having a stranger at the kitchen table when the kids get up for breakfast.
You wait until you're serious about the person before introducing the kids and gradually incorporate this person into your lives.
sofar at December 16, 2016 7:42 AM
You wait until you're serious about the person before introducing the kids
Certainly you don't want a casual date sleeping over when the kids are there, but there's no reason he can't meet them and be introduced as a friend. Early in one of my relationships, I took the woman and her kids to an amusement park. It gave the kids a chance to make friends with me, and her a chance to see how I was with them. If there had been any bad vibes on either side, the relationship would have gone no further, and that's how it should be.
It breaks my heart when I hear about cases where a single mom gets serious about a guy before he meets her kids, then keeps him around after it turns out he's no good for them.
Rex Little at December 16, 2016 2:35 PM
Taking this in a slightly different direction: generally it isn't the kids per se who are the barrier to the relationship, it is the woman.
I am putting my married self in this hypothetical and am stuck thinking "it isn't the kids". Kids are generally easy to deal with. Some love, some rules, some ice cream, they find a balance.
No. It is that this woman is
a) divorced and statistically likely to have pulled the trigger on the divorce She is also more statistically likely to divorce ME sooner rather than later. Meanwhile, I get the joy of emotionally bonding with some kids before she turns around and unilaterally throws me out of their lives, albeit with no visitation. What a bargain for me!
and b) SHE will likely be the barrier to me being a 'dad' to the kids, not the kids themselves. They are an added friction point (albeit unknowingly) which will make a successful life with this woman far less likely to succeed as she gets her panties in a twist about 'what you said to little David'.
I would fully embrace being a 'dad' to the kids: providing wisdom, support, love and advice. I do not want my role curtailed to 'a wallet who can also do babysitting duties only in circumstances I see fit'.
That is not a partnership. Maybe that is not the majority of women but I have heard a lot of horror stories.
FIDO at December 16, 2016 9:13 PM
divorced and statistically likely to have pulled the trigger on the divorce
True, but irrelevant unless you know the reason for the divorce. If it was "I wasn't happy" or "I don't love him anymore", then yes, she's a poor long-term risk. But if it was for cause (abuse, adultery, addiction, etc.), that's not a strike against her.
The women to really watch out for are the ones whose husbands initiated the divorce. Men don't often do that for frivolous reasons, so chances are she was cheating or worse.
Rex Little at December 17, 2016 9:11 AM
I basically agree with everything FIDO says.
This woman is 43 with young children which means that her kids were no teenage oops.
She deliberately had multiple children with a man she wasnt willing to stay married to when she was at least in her early to mid thirties. That generally indicates a calculation and cold bloodedness in her decision making process that cant be easily overlooked.
If I was a potential date, the first thing I would want to do is talk to the ex husband.
Ive seen a lot of women pull this gambit. They dump their spouse for some trivial reason, and then expect to find one just as good, but without that annoying personality trait that they dumped the last one for. Like picking up a new handbag at Macy's to replace the old one that has a scratch on it......
There could be a really good reason this woman is divorced, but the women I have known in those sitations were gun shy and not too eager to jump right back into the same nightmare they just extracted themselves from.
70 percent of the people reentering the dating game, in their forties or later are damaged or broken. There is a good chance that if it isnt your potential new man, it is you.
Isab at December 17, 2016 9:13 AM
Part of my attitude comes from what happened to a friend of mine. He met a woman with two adorable kids. I personally loved them. They were cute, intelligent and personable.
HOWEVER, having met his girlfriend, my advice to him was to run far and fast. Her kids were great. Her, not so much.
He wanted to stay for the kids and marry her, the idiot. And when her felon boyfriend/babydaddy got out of jail, she let my friend be her babysitter when she went out to 'talk about the kids' with the baby daddy (there is some discussion on how much conversation they engaged in...)
My friend has since separated from her and he was, as predicted, devastated to be separated from the kids.
It does not take many such stories to sour one on the prospect of dating or marrying single moms.
***
As far as this woman is concerned...
a) she should be up front.
But say she isn't upfront. Say she lies by omission. On finding out these two little secrets, the relationship calculations I would have originally made will have to be reworked.
It is a paradox. If she is an awesome woman, I will want to keep her. But if she lies and manipulates me this way, she isn't an awesome woman.
Pre nup anyone?
FIDO at December 17, 2016 10:32 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm stuck on sofar's implication (via experience with the parents known to him), that most parents use sitters every week or two.
I can't name a single person I know who has kids who does that. Not one. I know many who use sitters about twice a YEAR, if that.
Maybe that's just my area/friends/circle, but that totally blew my mind. I can't even remember the last time I had a sitter for my kids.
Shannon at December 21, 2016 2:56 PM
LW, you are a package deal. You have to be honest up front. Yeah, it will shrink the pool of possible dates, but that's a good thing. Take it from a former single mom, the more frogs that drop out of the game, the fewer you have to kiss.
Just keep your head up, don't worry about finding "That special someone", and just have some fun. It'll happen when it happens, most likely when you least expect it. It happened for me, and today is our 11th wedding anniversary.
Kat at December 22, 2016 4:55 PM
A little late to the game but ...
Kate, congrats on the anniversary and great advice. It worked for me 28 years ago and I was pretty damaged.
Bob in Texas at December 28, 2016 5:06 PM
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