Tulle Time
A female friend of mine wanted to get married, but her boyfriend was resistant. He'd been married before, with disastrous results. He eventually married her -- not because he wanted to be married but because it meant so much to her. Initially, she felt bad about this. She had to give up her romantic dream of getting married because somebody would want to be tied to her forever. Do men just marry women to make us happy?
--Wondering Woman
Picture a zookeeper coming in in the morning and going, "Crap -- we've got a new giraffe. How did he get in here?"
On one level, a man pining for a life in sexual captivity makes about as much sense as a wild animal breaking in to a zoo. Evolutionary psychologists David Buss and David Schmitt note that we humans evolved to choose between two different sexual strategies -- short-term and long-term. Women typically benefit more from a "long-term sexual strategy" -- a commitment model, i.e., getting men to stick around to invest in their children. Men often benefit more from a "short-term sexual strategy" -- a lack-of-commitment model, i.e., sticking it into a long line of sexfriends. That's because a man can have sex with thousands of women and never end up pregnant with something that needs to be fed, clothed, and sent to hipster day care.
Though a man gets more shots to pass on his genes with the short-term "I love a parade!" approach, it's sometimes more advantageous for him to opt for a long-term strategy. It's a huge time-, energy-, and resource-suck to perpetually be on the hunt. Also, Buss explains, because "highly desirable women" can hold out for commitment, men can get a much better woman if they're willing to go for a long-term thing (buying the relationship stroganoff instead of living off the free samples in the supermarket).
Whether to commit generally doesn't play out in men's heads in such clear cost-benefit terms -- like calculations on whether to go all in on pork futures. It's emotion that pushes them toward commitment -- loving a woman who happens to insist on a commitment and wanting to make her happy. Economist Robert H. Frank calls love "a solution to the commitment problem." Mushywushy feelings are what keep you with that special someone -- instead of running off the moment somebody who's objectively a better deal moves in next door or your beloved is tossing their cookies on the side of the road: "Bye, hon...hope somebody nice comes along to hold your hair back!"
So a man's being willing to officially take his penis off the market -- even if he isn't particularly hot on the idea of marriage -- is a really big deal. There are two major reasons you spend the rest of your life with one person: Either you realize you love them more than you love your freedom or you're serving a sentence for a string of really bad felonies.
Amys got a business to run so of course her answer is several paragraphs long, but the answer is one three letter word
lujlp at January 3, 2017 8:14 PM
Men might be proactive in doing the asking but IMO they're actually quite passive when it comes to relationships.
I've asked this question to many an older person, why do men say yes to women who are clearly nagging them into a marriage they're not too excited about?
And I think out of everyone my 80 year therapist summed it up best: it's convenient.
Many men entertain the idea they can do better, but they don't actually want to put the effort into finding that better. On top of that I do sincerely believe they love these women and find it satisfactory enough to marry them.
However there is such a stark difference between men who absolutely wanted to marry their wives and men who passively went along for the ride.
Yes I've seen men eager to tie certain women down---but usually these women are independent and interesting.
Ppen at January 3, 2017 11:55 PM
She specifically asked about marriage, not commitment, I have no problem commiting to a woman even though I'd prefer a harem.
But these days marriage is to commitment what the Nazis were to law and order. Seems like a good idea to get what you want but shit got disturbing real quick
lujlp at January 4, 2017 6:14 AM
"I've asked this question to many an older person, why do men say yes to women who are clearly nagging them into a marriage they're not too excited about?
And I think out of everyone my 80 year therapist summed it up best: it's convenient."
Considering how much our own internal "screwedupness" drives this decision (excluding the late teens/early 20's issue lujlp referred to) I think Ppen nailed this.
Personal companionship at an intimate level trumps (love that word) FWB on a lot of levels.
For me this desire for personal companionship drove me to find a new "mate" even though in my mind logically my "need" for this was ending (kid was getting older, over betrayal, becoming more "dateable" for various reasons, etc.).
If you are financially solvent, have no health issues, no filial issues, and have no need for an intimate companion, then marriage is probably useless.
No clue really though about this as I re-married a wonderful woman w/kids to merge w/my kid before attaining the above.
Their problems, her problems, and then my problems prevented the above from becoming a reality. No "real" complaints though.
c'est la vie
Bob in Texas at January 4, 2017 6:50 AM
My husband wanted to get married WAY before I did. I insisted on waiting 4 years (which is how long it took me to realize my ex was insane). And I was lucky he was willing to wait that long -- and that he didn't turn out to be insane.
Granted, we got married in our 30s. I noticed a switch flipped for many of my male friends at around the age of 32. Went from, "I don't think I could be with ONE PERSON forever," to "I need a host to carry my future children and I would like to lock down a wife within the year. I am already looking at engagement rings on the internet."
I know a couple of friends who nagged their boyfriends into proposing (and having babies) when they were in their 20s. And, believe it, knowing your partner didn't really WANT to propose is a weight that gets heavier every year. If I knew better at the time, I'd have said, "Dump him and find a man in his 30s."
sofar at January 4, 2017 7:55 AM
A good friend realized that her fiance was just stalling but not wanting so she sucked up and moved on.
They stayed aware of each other and when she sold her town home and bought a house he asked why she had not asked for his opinion. (clueless right)
She simply said that his opinion stopped mattering when she realized he did not want to marry her.
BAM! They've been married 15 years now.
Bob in Texas at January 4, 2017 9:56 AM
I don't know. I think it can fall into the category of things that go like this:
She: "Why don't we do X together?"
He: "That doesn't sound like very much fun."
She: "If you don't agree to do it with me, I'll never let you forget it."
Later:
He: "Why don't we do Y together?"
She: "That's a stupid idea. Why would I want to do that?"
He: "Well, if you don't want to, I'll do it by myself, or with my friends."
She: "If you spend any of our time or money on that, I'll never let you forget it."
Cousin Dave at January 4, 2017 10:31 AM
Am I just weird in that most of the married couples I know, either the man proposed or they just sort of decided after years of living together that making it legal made sense (my husband and I are very fond of each other, but if getting him on my health insurance hadn't been such an obvious plus, we might not have bothered. This was long before domestic partnerships, Obamacare, etc.) I guess being part of the kink/poly community means that few of us are committing to never banging anyone else ever again, so maybe that makes a difference?
Also, on the "men don't like marriage" thing . . . it's funny that same-sex marriage equality was such a big deal, eh? All those guys were just faking it to make their mothers happy?
Anathema at January 4, 2017 3:53 PM
Anathema,
It makes sense when you look at SSM as a political and sociological push, not a matrimonial push.
As Irving Kristol said about gay marriage: Give it to them. They won't like it.
I will be curious to see how a) monogamous gay guys turn out to be and b) what the divorce rates of gay guys tend to be down the road when the giddy rush of feeling goes away.
I don't feel either question is relevant to lesbians because of that old joke:
What do lesbians drive on a second date?
A moving van.
Probably not the whole truth but it has a piece of the truth in it.
FIDO at January 4, 2017 6:48 PM
I don't think the 'choosy' stops at finding a mate, Amy.
There was, of course, that OKcupid poll where 80% of men were 'below average' in looks. (But guys are the ones insisting on ridiculous standards of feminine beauty, right? RIGHT?)
But then again, if men, having tried matrimony, found it so odious, why do women institute most divorces?
Are so many men 'below average' relationships or is the 'choosy gender' never satisfied, even with their picks? Probably some of both.
FIDO at January 5, 2017 3:37 AM
That OKCupid stat gets thrown alot online.
However once you do some digging, 80% of men where considered below average lookswise but women where actually more variable when it came to actually dating them (i.e. yeah he's ugly but I am willing to date him because x reason). The true interpretation though is that women did NOT want to be contacted by 80% of men, which is different than judging them based on their looks. That sounds about right, considering by how much men outnumber women online.
Meanwhile women where judged more favorably by men but who cares if they where only interested in messaging the top 20% in terms of attractiveness. The reason is actually while men liked average to cute women, the women who where messaged and approached where women who had polarizing reactions to their looks among men.
The conclusion I have reached from reading all those polls is that human beings are huge pieces of superficial shit who feel entitled to the "hot" ones and ignore everyone else.
Ppen at January 5, 2017 9:19 AM
This is a distinction without a difference.
FIDO at January 5, 2017 11:53 AM
"it's funny that same-sex marriage equality was such a big deal, eh? All those guys were just faking it to make their mothers happy?"
I have the general impression that a lot of gay men, although they wanted the right to marry, didn't themselves actually want to get married. That's not an inconsistent position. But yeah, we'll see.
Cousin Dave at January 5, 2017 11:58 AM
I don't think it's a distinction without difference.
I see alot of young, frustrated men who use online dating angrily crying over the superficiality of women by using that stat. It's one of the most common stats thrown around on MRA sites. I see it used to show how much better men are because they don't judge looks as harshly.
Men are nicer ONLY when it comes to the ratings but they still pool to the top 20% who they ask, thin women in their 20s. As a group they consistently go for the unattainable then complain about not getting responses.
Women on the other hand are rating based on whether they will actually date them. Meaning a hot 20 year old is going to get a low rating from a 40 year old woman who is looking to date a man her own age.
Even OkCupid admits women shift their expectations to a healthier curve than men despite being harsher. However both groups are incredibly superficial, and only a tiny minority of people are successful on a site that is based solely on your looks.
If you're a short guy, or an average guy, or a young guy you're better meeting women face to face than expecting dating sites to work. Same if you're a chubby girl, or over 30.
Ppen at January 5, 2017 2:48 PM
Actually, I don't think we disagree all that much.
Men asserting this poll are essentially pushing back at the meme women have used forever that they are only shallow 'twenty something' obsessive minks in heat.
If so, how does one explain all the 'not 20 something' women getting married?
You at least ascribe some sense of shallowness to women too...which the poll unflatteringly displays.
Why I say it is a distinction without a difference is that WHATEVER metric they are using: looks, job, age, unibrow, bad grammar (BAD GRAMMAR!), the women are finding 80% of men unpalatable.
That is an awful lot of men to blow off.
But it goes both ways. I am sure you know any number of 'girls with great personalities' who can't find a date to save their lives.
But this is about choosiness in women as related by Amy.
So when they find that special 'person I can introduce to mother without humiliation', I see why they are a bit pushy to 'lock in the sale'.
FIDO at January 5, 2017 4:48 PM
FIDO I'm not disagreeing I just mean I think it's important to make the distinction because young men think women are judging them by the same standards they are using to judge women (looks).
They think by improving their looks they will improve their chances with women online. When that doesn't work they become angrier and more frustrated than before and use that poll to prove women are so looks obsessed they are willing to ignore 80% of men who don't meet that looks standard.
And then they see how favorably men rate even average looking girls and they become more frustrated. "See men are nicer?!!!" they'll say.
In truth unless they can grow a few inches they are better off growing their bank account and meeting women irl. Or making a program to spam as many women as possible with date requests to get "hits" (this method is actually proven to work).
Ppen at January 6, 2017 12:19 AM
I agreed to marriage, in my own self-interest, when I met a woman so awesome that I said to myself: I'll never do better than this. Wedding bells for me.
jim simon at January 6, 2017 6:59 AM
Tell me Jim, if you could have been gaurenteed commitment from her without marriage would you still have gotten married
lujlp at January 6, 2017 2:49 PM
Cousin Dave: I have the general impression that a lot of gay men, although they wanted the right to marry, didn't themselves actually want to get married. That's not an inconsistent position.
You're absolutely right. It's not inconsistent. There are plenty of cases where someone doesn't want to do something personally but feels that they, and others, should have the right to do it.
Just one example (of many): my former college roommate chooses to abstain from drinking (alcohol.) But he would be adamantly opposed to religious conservatives -- or any other people -- seeking to remove his right to drink.
JD at January 7, 2017 2:39 PM
lujlp,
I think the real question is if you make a commitment in your "soul" and to your mate are you not "married"?
Bob in Texas at January 8, 2017 3:32 PM
Well, Bob, I would suggest that is a question for women, as they are usually the one pushing to lock you into a CONTRACT, and a really bad one at that as it usually requires men to continue all the duties of marriage even after the contract ends.
This is one of the reasons I am single. I refuse to have kids and I refuse to get married. I make it very clear that I am capable of long term to lifetime commitment but in the current legal climate, and especially as I will never have children there is no benefit on any level to me to sign a marriage contract.
lujlp at January 11, 2017 12:42 PM
@FIDO . . . maybe I'm prejudiced, being a happily married (20 years and counting) and decidedly nonmonagmous person. But I recall Dan Savage talking about how and interesting thing that might come out of gay marriage is straight marriage loosening up a bit. To quote him, "If my husband is committing adultery at one end of a guy while I'm doing so at the other, is that cheating?".
I doubt I could be in a monogamous marriage, but I am very happy to be in a loving, committed one that just happens to allow for both of us to have a few little adventures either together or separately.
I don't think that makes me anti-marriage. I dig pretty much everything about marriage . . . except the idea that you can only bang one person (or geez even only kiss one person or flirt with one person, depending) ever again for the rest of your life. For people who are into monogamy? Awesome, rock on. But not all of us swing that way, and as a lady who's been nonmonogamous for decades, I'm thrilled if gay dudes help to normalize that.
Anathema at January 11, 2017 1:34 PM
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