Wussy Galore
My fiancee and I were driving my drunk friend home from a party. He was saying rude things to her, but I knew he was just wasted and didn't mean them, so I didn't say anything. I thought my fiancee would also shrug it off, but she was mad and hurt that I didn't stand up for her. Is it that big a deal? Couldn't she have stood up for herself?
--Middleman
Yes, there's actually more to being an ideal partner to a woman than being able to unhook a bra with your teeth.
A woman today may be perfectly capable of defending herself -- with her big mouth or her big pink handgun. However, she has an emotional operating system pushing her to go for men who show an ability and a willingness to protect her. This comes out of how, over millions of years of evolution, certain ladies' children were more likely to survive and pass on their mother's genes (and the psychology that rides along). Which children? Those whose mothers chose men who'd do more in an attack than, well, effectively crawl under the car seat and wish all the awfulness would stop.
Your fiancee probably still feels resentful and maybe even thinks less of you for how you basically showed all the testosterone-driven fortitude of a geranium. Consider what grandpas everywhere call "having character": doing the right thing -- even when that kinda blows for you. If, in looking back, you would've done things differently, tell your fiancee. Then pledge that going forward, you'll be that kind of guy -- and protecting the person who means most to you won't involve pushing your girlfriend toward the grizzly bear so you'll have more time to make a run for it.
This is a mug's game. Sorry Amy, but I disagree.
If Fiancée with righteous wrath, stands up to the miscreant with steely resolve, and gave him verbal or physical comeuppance, his Significant Other, instead of having her womb aquiver, would scream afterwards "Why did you embarrass me like that? Don't you think I can take care of myself? This was NO BIG DEAL that now you made into a mountain. I have been dealing with jerks like that my entire life!"
And if he, with restraint and respect for her independence and personal strength, remained silent, she would launch into 'How could you just let him SAY those horrible horrible things to me? Don't you care about me at ALL? What did I ever see in you if you can't even stand up for me?"
And if he didn't go full Macho Jason Bourne/Russian Boyfriend on him, and left Pajama Boy at home, but just says something pointed, he will get 'While I appreciate what you did IN PRINCIPLE (is that a tiny glow in her nether regions? Nah!), don't you think you a) you were a little over the top there / b) could have worded that a little more strongly?'
The only way he could have won in this situation was telepathy.
See, women reserve the right to be mad at a man with her Id, her Ego and her Super Ego, not just her cave woman programming.
He had only 1 chance in 100 of winning.
FIDO at May 16, 2017 6:43 PM
And this discounts the very likely possibility that she was mad for an entirely different reason and was using THIS as an excuse to lite off on him. Maybe she didn't want to go to the party. Maybe she was miffed at him spending too much time down Donna's cleavage, that tramp. Maybe she really hates the drunken friend.
This incident wasn't the reason, but the excuse.
Again, 1 in 100 at best.
FIDO at May 16, 2017 6:56 PM
Maybe it doesn't boil down to "protecting" her, but about having the strength of character to do the right thing -- which is telling someone who's being a rude jackass that he's being a rude jackass.
A (former) friend of mine once said something horrible about my husband when drunk. And I called that person on it. Because it was my friend and it was my responsibility to do so. Similarly, my husband stood up for me when his relative made a cruel joke about me. These are things adults do.
sofar at May 16, 2017 9:28 PM
Sofar, you said exactly what I was going to say, but much more clearly than I would have. Whether it was a man or a woman being insulted makes no difference.
Helena Handbasket at May 17, 2017 5:48 AM
FIDO - I'm sorry, you must know some terrible women, but Sofar is right - this is about standing up for people, period. Jerks stay jerks because no one calls them out for their jerky behavior.
EF at May 17, 2017 6:13 AM
"A (former) friend of mine once said something horrible about my husband when drunk. And I called that person on it. "
To defend FIDO's position, you could do that because you didn't have to worry about the guy responding by taking a swing at you.
If there's one type of person I hate, it's mean drunks. So I've got this guy in the car and he's smashed and is making a bunch of crude comments. First I'd tell him to cool it. Second, I'd pull over and invite him to exit the car there. If that fails, it's time to call the police. In doing all of this, I'm running the risk that he will decide he wants to fight. That's a lose-lose situation for me: I could lose a couple of teeth, the police will be called, and we'll both wind up in jail. And then people (some of them women) will spread rumors about me, and my finacee will be so mortified by the whole thing that she won't make any effort to defend me to her friends, and she may well break up with me. The only solution is preventative: if you find out that someone you associate with is a mean drunk, get far away from them and stay there.
I hate to say it, but a lot of women, including many who should know better, expect that men have some kind of secret wand-waving magic solution for situations like this, and they are quite disappointed in us when they find out that we don't.
Cousin Dave at May 17, 2017 6:48 AM
I'm sorry what's the point of berating a drunk person when they're not going to remember it?
Did this lady even give the boyfriend a chance to deal with this friend after he sobered up before she started bitching at him
Also, what exactly were the comments, I don't subscribe to the notion that my subjective feelings matter more than objective reality, for all we know the god awful things this drunk guy said was "your extensions look bad"
lujlp at May 17, 2017 8:23 AM
To defend FIDO's position, you could do that because you didn't have to worry about the guy responding by taking a swing at you.
Context makes a big difference. In this case, we were in the middle of a networking mixer for professionals in my industry. Little risk of a brawl there. My husband stayed quiet, not because he would have been slugged, but because he didn't want to mess up a networking opportunity for me. So it was MY responsibility to tell my friend his remark was inappropriate.
If LW felt unsafe in the car with a drunk, a text or call the next day to his idiot friend would have sufficed. Could have said after dropping him off, "Sweetie, I can't believe he said that stuff to you. I wanted him out of the car without a brawl for safety reasons because he's an angry drunk, but I'm going to call him tomorrow." No wand-waving necessary.
sofar at May 17, 2017 8:34 AM
This is about standing up for people, period. Jerks stay jerks because no one calls them out for their jerky behavior.
Right. Especially if you have social clout (ie, it's your friend/family member being an idiot). Obviously, one has to take personal safety into consideration (which others are pointing out), but calmly and sternly telling someone their behavior will not be tolerated (in the moment, or after the fact) is important. Amy has written books on this: People get away with all kinds of behavior because others don't give them the social consequences they deserve.
No need for LW to fight for his fiance's honor or anything, just say, "Hey, do you remember any of the things you said to my fiance last night when you were drunk? No? OK here are some examples. I assumed you'd want to apologize to her, so that's why I'm telling you."
sofar at May 17, 2017 8:41 AM
Here is why it's a mugs game, sofar.
It is not enough actually DO something or not do something, because the woman involved will also have this unknowable metric of exactly what 'enough' is. And if the guy miss that mark, she may or may not verbally berate you for missing that mark ("Jeremy, how could you point your finger in his chest! What are you, an animal? How could you embarrass me like that?")
.
.
.
but she might still mentally put a notch in her head of 'he overreacts/underreacts and I don't feel appropriately taken care of.'
Now, to speak specifically to sofar, texting and calling to drunk guy the next morning is too late. What is he going to do, call his fiancée over to 'see how I defend you honey, at the remove of media and miles and really give him SIX scowly faces on his text message? Huh? Huh? Whose da man?'
At that point, her mad has already been on all night. He might get a quarter point at best but likely with a side of 'pathetic'.
It needs to be done right then and it cannot offend the woman by being over or under done or he is likely going to hear about it.
So as a man, I say to him defend his lady but don't expect any accolades for it. I would bet an expensive dinner that Amy has probably received more than a few letters by ladies complaining about "El Muy Macho" embarrassing the hell out of a woman as well.
So...a mugs game. He should please himself.
It has become a huge cultural meme that all the 'strong independent women' in media do NOT want men 'defending their honor' and the male characters are almost without fail, portrayed as being wrong when they do this.
So I don't really blame the guy for taking this tack.
FIDO at May 17, 2017 9:22 AM
Yes. Context matters. So Amy is telling the LW why he got it wrong, but she can't provide any rules for how to get it right.
sofar provided a perfect example. The LW, when dealing with a loud mouthed idiot, did nothing.
sofar's spouse, when he met a loudmouthed idiot, did nothing.
But in one case, the woman got mad at his lack of action. In the other, if HE had 'dealt with a jerk', sofar very likely would have gotten mad AT HIM.
And to go further, if rude co-worker had suddenly gone verbally aggressive at her, she would, at some undefined point, expect her spouse to step in and 'help'.
When? How much? Well...that context thing gets tricky. Try not to miss your cue, buddy, or you will hear about it.
This boils down to a guy getting yelled at for misinterpreting a situation and not by a lot.
FIDO at May 17, 2017 9:52 AM
"My fiancee and I were driving my drunk friend home from a party. He was saying rude things to her,..."
I'm confused so sorry if I missed the boat.
It's the guy fiancee that is being rude and the girl friend of the drunk that missed an opportunity to stop rude comments.
I still agree w/FIDO though just for reverse reasons. The LW girl could not win in this case depending upon the attitudes of the other two drunks.
(He wants her, tongued her, she liked it, will she tell, does not respect her, etc.. She liked it but feels slutty, he's not that good a kisser anyway, does not respect her if that's her man, etc..)
We are talking about people that get drunk and act inappropriately so don't put too much thought on it. Next weekend it will be different people.
Bob in Texas at May 17, 2017 12:12 PM
Now, to speak specifically to sofar, texting and calling to drunk guy the next morning is too late. What is he going to do, call his fiancée over to 'see how I defend you honey, at the remove of media and miles and really give him SIX scowly faces on his text message? Huh? Huh? Whose da man?'
I, and any other reasonable adult, would be fine with my fiance doing a text/call the next day (or bringing it up in person the next time he saw his friend), due to the safety issues of calling out a drunk guy in a moving car. The idea is that my husband would recognize his friend was rude to me and call him out when safe to do so. Not sure where you're getting the idea about scowly-faced emojis from ... or your assumptions about manliness. A simple call saying, "Hey here's what you said to my wife while drunk last night. I assume you'd want to apologize to her for this," is a perfectly adult way to handle the situation.
... if HE had 'dealt with a jerk', sofar very likely would have gotten mad AT HIM.
False. I would not have gotten angry. But, when I saw my husband wasn't comfortable saying anything at a networking event in my field, I quickly realized that it was my responsibility to deal with MY rude friend. Just as it was my husband's responsibility to deal with his rude cousin during one of my first family parties at his house.
Responding to rudeness doesn't require being dramatic or "embarrassing" and any women who expect this response are unreasonable. Saying calmly, "That's inappropriate" or "You should really apologize for that" or just "Wow, done talking to you, that was a messed-up thing to say" and walking away makes the point just as well in most of these garden-variety social situations -- and should be acceptable to any reasonable adult woman. There's no indication that LW's fiance wanted him to go postal on his friend or kept him up all night with guilt-trips -- he simply says she was mad and hurt that he did nothing (during or after the fact) and wanted her to brush it off.
sofar at May 17, 2017 12:22 PM
"Little risk of a brawl there."
Don't be so sure. A (male) co-worker once attempted to assault me in a meeting, while I was doing a presentation. The (female) co-worker next to him grabbed his arm and persuaded him to put down the heavy object he was preparing to throw at me. Had she not been sitting next to him, I have no doubt that he would have attacked me. He was that kind of person. And even though I would have been totally on the defensive, my reputation still would have suffered for it.
Cousin Dave at May 17, 2017 1:44 PM
sofar,
First, I agree that the LW SHOULD have defended his fiancée. I find it some unfortunate cultural stupidity spread by the media that this is not proper.
My quibble is that of her reaction to his actions. If fiancée was a feminist troll (they exist) then anything he said to defend her would have been taken the wrong way because 'ideology'. We have all met these women.
Second, even 'normal' women can and will get mad at a guy if he doesn't respond within her parameters of appropriate behavior. You admitted as much.
Responding to rudeness doesn't require being dramatic or "embarrassing" and any women who expect this response are unreasonable. Saying calmly, "That's inappropriate" or "You should really apologize for that" or just "Wow, done talking to you, that was a messed-up thing to say" and walking away makes the point just as well in most of these garden-variety social situations -- and should be acceptable to any reasonable adult woman.
Well, let's say, hypothetically, that hubby said some very cutting comments and thumped his finger into rude guy's chest aggressively at network party because he felt it appropriate. Now what? Maybe YOU would have been understanding, I concede.
Many other women would have taken the hubby's head off for embarrassing her...because she thought this was outside acceptable behavior. "I like what you did in principle BUT..." would probably have been in the post party wrap up that most husbands suffer under.
My comments are not about the proper response. Defend one's woman and face down jerks. Got it. I am citing that expecting gratitude for it from many women is not very likely without hearing a lot of caveats and criticisms.
FIDO at May 17, 2017 6:07 PM
I spy several male commenters in this thread who are single and will remain so.
You don't let your friend, drunk or sober, insult your significant other without calling them out on it. Not if you're worth a damn as a grown-up human being and not if you want to stay in the relationship.
But hey, you can always masturbate.
Gail at May 17, 2017 9:47 PM
Ever notice how the equal rights ladies are always the first to insult a man by belittling his sexual prowess if they disagree with him.
Ofcourse, the reason they do this is they know they guy is right and they have no real arguments to counter with, so they attack the messenger
lujlp at May 18, 2017 1:32 AM
Sorry, but I'd rather take a punch in the nose than look like a pussy in front of my girl.
Drunk a-holes are drunk because they drank too much. They own their behavior whether they like it or not. Call them on it.
As to FIDO's contention that we don't know the girlfriend's state of mind, we don't. Who cares? Stand up and do the right thing anyway.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 18, 2017 6:21 AM
If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends. Make it last forever, friendship never ends
NicoleK at May 18, 2017 10:00 AM
Oh sorry, my post makes no sense, I thought a drunk male fiance was being rude to a female LW's friend. I got it backwards. Read it wrong.
Hard to know without knowing what he said, if you're reading the comments please provide more details.
But generally yeah, you could say something like, "Not cool, man" or, "Whoa, harsh".
OR, to lessen FIDO's worries, talk to him privately afterwards and ask him why he was such a douche and to not do that. Then if GF flips out you can tell her you spoke to him privately.
NicoleK at May 18, 2017 10:04 AM
Why are you hanging out with out of control drunks to begin with, that's the bigger question
NicoleK at May 18, 2017 10:11 AM
"Why are you hanging out with out of control drunks to begin with, that's the bigger question."
I thought the answer to that was clear -- it was a basic human decency thing. If an acquaintance is too drunk to drive, and you have the means to get them home safely, you do so. Admittedly, the guy probably forfeited future consideration with his behavior during the drive. But if LW had refused to take him home, and the friend had tried to drive himself and crashed, how would you feel about that?
Cousin Dave at May 18, 2017 11:13 AM
Lujlp: "Ever notice how the equal rights ladies are always the first to insult a man by belittling his sexual prowess if they disagree with him."
Oh, poor persecuted Luj.
Who exactly is insulting any man's "sexual prowess"? No one said a damn thing about your ability to get it up or perform the sexual act. What we're opining on is whether a woman would stay with you as her boyfriend or husband if you can't be bothered to stick up for her under that situation.
I (and Amy and the others taking the position that the guy should have spoken up for his fiancee) are taking the position that most women aren't going to stay with a guy who just sits there while his friend insults them. (If I were a guy, I wouldn't stay with a woman who didn't stand up for me if one of her friends or relatives insulted me, either.) Decent humans don't just sit there under those circumstances. They speak up.
And also, for me, there's the whole line of "oh, all women are shallow gold diggers and mean and totally inconsistent and who can ever understand the stupid bitches and a man just can never win", which is incredibly unattractive to any woman worth having, and which is rife in too many of the comments on this blog. If that is your view of women, I guarantee it will be a self-fulfilling prophesy, to the extent you find a girlfriend at all. Sure, there are women like that, and you are going to be a magnet for them. The rest will steer the fuck clear of you.
You don't have to punch the drunk moron you call a friend. You just have to say "You're out of line. Don't talk to her like that." And if he doesn't apologize profusely (when he's sober, if not when he's drunk), you should contemplate why you're friends with the asshole. Unless, of course, you agree with his observations about your girlfriend, in which case you should contemplate why you're with her.
If he punches you for that, you've learned a valuable thing about your friend: he's a fucking asshole. Press assault charges. Have nothing more to do with him.
Gail at May 18, 2017 2:18 PM
Wow Gail. Just...wow.
I don't remember mentioning gold diggers anywhere (projecting much.
But let me clarify.
Woman, IN GENERAL, tend to be conflict avoidant. So IF there was a way to overlook the issue, quite a few women would take that option (he was teasing, he was drunk, he was my boss, it was a networking party)
Women tend to be much more conscious of social standing so damage to reputation is much more keenly felt...which when dovetailed with that whole conflict avoidance thing...
Just got finished watching a random episode of a television show. And what do we get? "How dare you stick up for me! I can fight my own battles!"
Pretty much every man has heard "You aren't helping if you are going to do it wrong", so yes to standing up for a woman because a guy should do that... but unlikely on being assured gratitude for it.
Is it overbroad as a statement? Maybe. It is not true, despite what Gail seems to assert, that women are immune from being ungrateful or sending very mixed messages.
FIDO at May 18, 2017 6:35 PM
FIDO, you started by blaming the victim and putting all kinds of thoughts in her head and words in her mouth, and assuming that she'd be totally irrational no matter what LW did or didn't do. Gail called you on your s**t (as did GMCR), and Gail's mock-quote "who can ever understand the stupid bitches and a man just can never win" is actually a pretty accurate summary of your comments.
Then you have the nerve to jump on her for calling you out for being a misogynist a**hole? Dood, hope you got a big bottle of lotion and a new box of Kleenex.
Grey Ghost at May 19, 2017 6:07 AM
My hubs punched one of his friends once, for calling me a bitch. Once youre married, spouse comes first. I cant imagine even letting my drunk friend talk nasty to a stranger without calling them on it, much less to my own fiance. You acted wimpy, LW. Whether or not you actually are, I dont know. But your fiance has told you what sort of man she wants. Are you that man? Better figure it out before you say I Do. If you cant be that man, let her go.
And yeah, I can protect myself, but if Im partnered, I shouldnt have to.
Momof4 at May 19, 2017 9:07 AM
I don't think the man acted wimpy at all. The impression I get from reading the letter, at least Amy's edited version of it, is that he didn't perceive a threat.
So, the guy was drunk and made some rude comments. LW probably knows what his friend is like when he's drunk and just dismissed it as "not a threat."
If, on the other hand, the guy makes rude comments when he's drunk and starts putting his hands all over her, ignoring it would have been completely out of line.
Really? Since when? No one has any legal obligation to protect you from anything. Not even your husband.
Maybe you're attracted to the kind of guy that would protect you. And maybe your boyfriend/husband would do just that. But "shouldn't"? Oh, yes you should.
You're an adult. And adults are responsible for their own protection. Being a woman is not your license to expect it from someone else.
Patrick at May 23, 2017 8:34 AM
I've had to deal with drunk racist comments from friends of friends at parties. It's as fun as it sounds. It doesn't excuse it because they're drunk, people are sometimes at their most honest while hammered. If my friend hears what's being said and doesn't check their friend (or worse, makes excuses for that drunk person, damn my feelings) that tells me whose friend they really are, that they don't really have my back and I can't trust them to support me. It also tells me I shouldn't socialize with them, it could be putting myself at risk.
Can I protect myself, absolutely. But if I'm going to be the only one having my back, what do I need you in my life for?
That is even more important in a significant other situation. Your SO isn't asking you to drop kick anyone (from the sound of it) but they are asking you not to agree with how f*cked up someone is being with your silence or your excuses ("he's drunk he didn't mean it" IS an excuse of their behavior). Silence is co-signing behavior. Especially if you don't even check them when they're sobered up. Also, speaking as a woman, drunk guys are not less dangerous typically. Alcohol doesn't decrease concern over bad behavior. If you socialize with this person again, will she get to enjoy more of their lovely comments? Bet she's wondering that; I would be. So distinct possibility that socializing with this person more will lead to arguments with your SO.
So, its then just a matter of whose back do you want to have long term- your friend or the person you're trying to sign up with to have and to hold?
Lia at May 24, 2017 2:11 AM
I've physically intervened against physical assaults on women twice. Both were strangers I didn't see again, so I have no idea what they thought.
Walking across campus during a blizzard with my then GF and we divided to go around a huge pile of snow the ploughs had left. When I got past it I saw some clown holding my GF down and rubbing her face in the snow. I picked him up--He said,"I was just...."-- and I shoved him face first deep into the pile and kept shoving. The GF and I were pretty tight at the time so I don't know if it made a difference. I think it would have if I'd just stood there.
The thing to do is get between them and get the jerk's attention. Look him in the eye and he'll take his business elsewhere. So you usually don't have to get physical.
This requires the implication of escalation which is hard to pull off when you're driving and the jerk is to drunk to expect you'll stop the car and throw him out if your requests he clean up his act don't work.
However, since this is the woman's friend, drunk or not, we can presume she'll have some residual sympathy and anything besides calm reproaches will get you in trouble. Even if they don't work. So this is a toughy.
I suppose you can put in the calm reproaches just to make the point that you care, but anything further is not going to get the heroine to hop up behind Pernell Roberts' saddle and ride off into the sunset,stopping at the odd bed on the way.
Richard Aubrey at May 24, 2017 1:43 PM
Friends, family, and loved ones have your back. Period. Part of having your back is standing up for you when someone is badmouthing you, drunk or sober. If you don't stand up for your loved one in a situation like the LW's, you are not a good bet for a deeper relationship. (Not to yell at the LW, he sounds like he wants to know the right thing to do and sounds willing to change.)
NJ at May 28, 2017 3:18 PM
I've been drunk many times and it's never caused me to be rude, if anything I'm usually friendlier when drunk, so I don't know if I buy being drunk as an excuse for being rude ... I'm guessing he did mean those things, but avoided saying them when sober out of politeness. Alcohol lowers your inhibitions, but I think it generally doesn't make you do things you weren't already wanting to do on some level.
If someone was saying rude things about my partner, I'd probably keep quiet if I thought they were somewhat true, ha ha.
Lobster at May 28, 2017 5:32 PM
Oh shut up, FIDO. You're so fuckin' jaded
Mary at May 30, 2017 6:05 PM
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