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The Murderers Within
Britain is probably ruined, and like France, is probably going to become an Arab state under Sharia law before the end of the century. Their population is too small, and the sicko Muslim population is too great, and before long, the nutters will have turned their country into Baghdad west.

Yes, they caught this car bomb. But, the next one and the next one? And while the Brits sit idly by offering welfare checks to the Islamists bent on destroying them, the Islamists rail freely in Mosques in London to incite this destruction...the destruction of the very state that allows them the freedom to practice their religion. This time, the excuse is that the Queen dared knight somebody -- Salman Rushdie -- who dared criticize their religion. Is this the behavior of modern adults -- or violent, overly-empowered children?

Here's the latest -- the bombing was apparently bragged about by one of violent barbarian children who planned it...about 17 hours before the bomb was discovered. Via CBS News:

Hours before London explosives technicians dismantled a large car bomb in the heart of the British capital's tourist-rich theater district, a message appeared on one of the most widely used jihadist Internet forums, saying: "Today I say: Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed."

CBS News found the posting, which went on for nearly 300 words, on the "al Hesbah" chat room. It was left by a person who goes by the name abu Osama al-Hazeen, who appears regularly on the forum. The comment was posted on the forum, according to time stamp, at 08:09 a.m. British time on June 28 -- about 17 hours before the bomb was found early on June 29.

Al Hesbah is frequently used by international Sunni militant groups, including al Qaeda and the Taliban, to post propaganda videos and messages in their fight against the West.

There was no way for CBS News to independently confirm any connection between the posting made Thursday night and the car bomb found Friday.

Al-Hazeen's message begins: "In the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful. Is Britain Longing for al Qaeda's bombings?"

Al-Hazeen decries the recent knighthood of controversial author Salman Rushdie as a blow felt by all British Muslims. "This 'honoring' came at a crucial time, a time when the whole nation is reeling from the crusaders attacks on all Muslim lands," he said, in an apparent reference to the British role in Iraq.

"We say to Britain: The Emir of al Qaeda, Sheikh Osama, has once threatened you, and he carried out his threats. Today I say: Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed," the message reads.

...Several responses to the posting by other forum members expressed hope that an attack against London would be realized in the near future.

In response, al-Hazeen urges patience, saying, "Victory is very close, but you are just rushing it."

...Britain has wrestled since the July 7, 2005, over how to deal with the threat of "homegrown" terrorism. Young men from the country's large Muslim population are easy prey for radical clerics and propaganda campaigns propagated on Internet forums such as al Hesbah.

In addition to messages calling for jihad in Britain, detailed video demonstrations of how to construct bombs using gas canisters are readily available on the forums.

So, what's the answer in our country? And do we deport those who are advocating violence against us? Oh, and by the way, that might've been us this time around. Debbie Schlussel writes:

Remember Dhiren Barot a/k/a "Britani" [the Brit]? I recently told you about the British Al-Qaeda cell sachem, whose detailed plans to bomb New York's financial district with limousine bombs were released by Scotland Yard (click on the links at this link to see the plans).

Well, guess what? He's suspected as the likely mastermind of today's two car bombs that were foiled in London. ABC News reports that video pics of the man setting the bomb strongly resembles a suspect once in their custody in connection with the Barot plot in New York of which I wrote previously.

Predictably, liberal websites criticized me for rhetorically asking readers to "Guess the Religion" of the bombers. But--no surprise--I was quite apparently right on target.

As was I. Links within are live at her permalink. And here's more from Schlussel, who goes undercover to some of the Muslim violence-advocating parties in what she calls "Dearbornistatn," in my home state of Michigan. This is from her piece, "Hezbollah U.S.A, Part III: My Date at Dearbornistan's Hezbollah Social Club" -- which, by the way, she says we Americans subsidize under its 501(c)(3) tax-deductible status:

While it operates mostly as a banquet facility, the Bint Jebail Cultural Center is also used as a frequent meeting place for Hezbollah supporters and a locale for Hezbollah rallies that frequently feature anti-American and anti-Christian hate, not just anti-Semitism.

...Sunday's event was no different than the usual Bint Jebail hate fare, minus the bloated, pandering federal officials. It was a Hezbollah rally filled with anti-Semitic and anti-American rhetoric, as well as prayers for the Mujahideen and the Martyrs. What I saw and heard should be must viewing for all Americans.

But you didn't read any of it in the whitewash AP story by a reporter who apparently doesn't speak or understand Arabic--the language of most of the speeches (and probably not English, either, since he couldn't even get the name of the club right). Not that Arabic fluency was necessary. It was quite clear that this was a modern day Nazi hate-fest.

...Haj Mohammed Turfe (AP incorrectly called him Mohammed "Torfah"), Founding Chairman of the Bint Jebail Cultural Center, gleefully and repeatedly spoke of how "only a few thousand Jews will survive Armageddon." This mantra, repeated often throughout the event, got raucous, deafening applause and cheers. Well, for once--I thought--extremist Muslims have respect for Christianity. . . when they can twist it to suit their fascist hopes and dreams.

Dr. Ali Ajami, Lebanese Consul General in Detroit, delivered a fire-and-brimstone anti-Semitic tirade that would make Father Coughlin blush. An open supporter of Hezbollah, sources say he was installed in the position by Hezbollah officials in the Lebanese and Syrian governments. Incredibly, he is constantly feted by Department of Homeland Security officials.

Then, there was Imam Mohammed Ali Elahi. First, he said that Americans and Jews are "diseased," among other attacks. He sang a prayer for the Martyrs and Mujahideen--to the fervent applause of the attendees. He urged those in attendance not to buy new clothes for the next year, and to instead donate the money to "them, our brothers and sisters." It was quite clear he was speaking of Hezbollah (giving money to it is a violation of U.S. law).

...Throughout the speeches there were cheers and statements of support from the crowd for Hezbollah and against Jews. Some of the loudest cheers came for the repeated mantra, "Pray for the Speedy Dismantling of the Jewish State." It was a take on the business card of extremist Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss of the Neturei Karta, a surprise speaker at the event. But his card says, "Pray For the Speedy Peaceful Dismantling of the Zionist State." They were not interested in the "peaceful" part, apparently.

Guess what? We're next.

UPDATE: No, sorry...seems Glasgow, Scotland was next. Via SkyNews:

Two people have been arrested after a Jeep was driven into the terminal building at Glasgow airport and caught fire.

Witnesses reported hearing a series of loud "bangs" and saw two men - one of whom was on fire - emerge from the vehicle.

Downing Street said Prime Minister Gordon Brown was "being kept aware" of the suspected terror strike, which came a day after two car bombs were found in London.

A Home Office spokesman said that the official security alert level remains at "severe", as it has been for some time.

The Cherokee 4x4 smashed into a glass door at Terminal One of the airport, the busiest in Scotland, which has now been closed.

Hundreds of holidaymakers were in the area at the time, and witnesses said some of them removed gas cylinders from the jeep before it caught fire.

But there are reports the occupants - described as Asian males - were trying to pour petrol on the flames.

Scott Gleeson said he saw the jeep speed up and swerve towards the terminal at an angle to hit the door.

"They were obviously trying to get through to cause as much damage as possible," he said.

A pity there's no Scottish lass doing the Debbie Schlussel undercover work.

Posted by aalkon at June 30, 2007 6:22 AM

Comments

Only a week ago Crusade Media News ran a story:

“a new jihadi video, made in Kyrgyzstan, that purports to show a “graduation ceremony” of 300 aspiring suicide bombers headed for the West. According to an account of the tape on the ABC News web site, the ceremony was staged on June 9 at a training camp alleged to be operated by the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The video, recorded by a Pakistani journalist, shows groups of about 150 masked men—supposedly suicide bombers assigned to conduct attacks in Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany and the United States.

http://www.crusade-media.com/news80.html

Also reported last week - Germany on high alert for suicide bombers

http://www.crusade-media.com/news79.html

Posted by: Alan at June 30, 2007 7:15 AM

Posted by: Crid at June 30, 2007 7:23 AM

Schlussel does not impress. Once you've proven your willingness to lie about people you don't even know, I stop believing you. Schlussel is filth, plain and simple.

Posted by: Patrick at June 30, 2007 7:53 AM

By the way, I have to love her picture. He over-injected lips look like they've been glossed with shit. Which is appropriate, since she speaks so much of it.

What was that you posted a long time ago about lip-liner? That it makes your mouth look like an asshole? In Schlussel's case, the image is fitting.

Posted by: Patrick at June 30, 2007 8:04 AM

Dude, you are so harsh.

Posted by: Crid at June 30, 2007 8:10 AM

Am I? Ask Schlussel if I am. She demonized Barack Obama as a Muslim, which he is not. Amy has said in the past that she doesn't like liars, hence her distaste for Michael Moore and Ann Coulter. So, why then, this approval of human filth Schlussel?

If you have such a distaste for my opinions, I'm really sorry. But I consider it beyond reprehensible that Schlussel would deny someone the right to decide for himself what religion he happens to be.

Posted by: Patrick at June 30, 2007 9:05 AM

I don't agree with everything she does or says -- just as Cathy Seipp and I didn't agree on everything. (We once had a half-hour argument on gay marriage, which she didn't support because she thought it was weird. Me: "Cathy, you can't deny people rights because you think what they're doing is weird." Matt Welch walked past and said: "She's wrong, she'll never admit it, don't waste your time.")

Still, Schlussel does something very important -- exposing what's really going on behind closed doors (and even beyond open doors) which nobody else is covering. My dad sent me some of the Muslim hate rags from Detroit. I have to find them and photograph some of the headlines and stories and post them. Don't think you have nothing to fear, because we all have plenty to fear, and not baselessly, either.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at June 30, 2007 9:36 AM

Actually, I looked at the quote at the link. Here it is:

I decided to look further into Obama's background. His full name--as by now you have probably heard--is Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Hussein is a Muslim name, which comes from the name of Ali's son--Hussein Ibn Ali. And Obama is named after his late Kenyan father, the late Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., apparently a Muslim. And while Obama may not identify as a Muslim, that's not how the Arab and Muslim Streets see it. In Arab culture and under Islamic law, if your father is a Muslim, so are you. And once a Muslim, always a Muslim. You cannot go back. In Islamic eyes, Obama is certainly a Muslim. He may think he's a Christian, but they do not. *** So, even if he identifies strongly as a Christian, and even if he despised the behavior of his father (as Obama said on Oprah); is a man who Muslims think is a Muslim, who feels some sort of psychological need to prove himself to his absent Muslim father, and who is now moving in the direction of his father's heritage, a man we want as President when we are fighting the war of our lives against Islam? Where will his loyalties be? Is that even the man we'd want to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, if Hillary Clinton offers him the Vice Presidential candidacy on her ticket (which he certainly wouldn't turn down)? NO WAY, JOSE . . . Or, is that, HUSSEIN?

I wouldn't write that latter paragraph, but I think that's pretty clear that that's her opinion, to which she's entitled. Not the same as lying.

As for the top part, I don't know whether that's the case or not. Maybe Joe can tell us?

Posted by: Amy Alkon at June 30, 2007 9:39 AM

But, really, what others consider you has nothing to do with you. People consider me a lot of things...can't do a thing about that.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at June 30, 2007 9:41 AM

Apparently we can't do much about the sheethead fanatics that want to kill us either. It's total sickness.

Posted by: Flynne at June 30, 2007 2:13 PM

Sure, I can comment, Amy. There is plenty of baggage concerning Barak Obama and Islam.

Schlussel is right about the oneness of Islam the religion and Islam the culture. Why do you think Muslims are trying to use the "religion as a form of race" when attacking critics of Islam?

Obama's sympathies can be viewed as a form of al-taqiyya or the expression would be appropriate that the Senator from Illinois would be seen as a useful idiot for Islam. Both Obama's father and step father are Muslims. He attended Muslim schools in Indonesia, until he left for Hawaii. So he is steeped in the culture and could be blinded by actual threats from violent Islamist groups as POTUS. All in the name of diversity.

There are other troubling issues about Obama that the Old Media tends to ignore about the Senator's openness towards the religion of peace. There was a 1999 radio interview that Obama made on how the USA would be a much better place in accepting Islam as a way to end our nation's legacy of racism. Treating the religion of peace as a role model in handling our domestic problems. How can a person say that Islam ended racism in the Middle East??? Has the Senator from Illinois ever been to the Middle East? Arab Muslims in the USA refer to black Muslims as second class believers or use the old Arab expression 'abd' or slaves.

Now is he a hidden conspirator in the practice of al-taqiyya? No. In my past posts on al-taqiyya, there are different degrees of the practice of religious deception in the name of Islamic expansion. The useful idiots who practice pc riddled diversity policies can be viewed as a form of al-taqiyya too. The whole implict/explicit versions of al-taqiyya.

Posted by: Joe at June 30, 2007 6:18 PM

Also, I will refer to my posts on the arrogance of the believers too. To most Muslims, it is a matter of time when Obama will return to the faith of his fathers.

There were many conversations I had with Muslim clerics overseas when it came to my inability to convert to Islam.

This is a typical conversation:

Cleric: Have you read the Qur'an?

Me: Yes.

Cleric: Will you convert to Islam?

Me: No.

Cleric: You probably read the Qur'an in English?

Me: Yes. Why do you ask?

Cleric: That is why you haven't felt the need to convert. You haven't read the Book in its natural Arabic. English will take away its spiritual authenticity.

Me: But I read the Qur'an in Arabic too.

Cleric: Have you read the Hadiths?

Me: Yes, in Arabic.

Cleric: You still do not feel the need to convert?

Me: Nope.

Cleric: Which translation? (I'm dealing with a Sunni cleric)

Me: Al-Sihah al-Sittah, but abridged or condensed.

Cleric: Well, you haven't read its complete version. (14 volumes) After you have read the COMPLETE Hadiths... then you will convert, my son.

Me: (Inside voice) Don't bet on it asshole. (Outside voice) Well, I am an open vessel and willing to be a vehicle of Fate. (Its a line from a pre-Islamic Persian poem) Is there anymore mint tea?

My use of a Persian poem is a way of giving the cleric an intellectual 'middle finger' by expressing the superiority of the Parsi language over Arabic.

Posted by: Joe at June 30, 2007 6:44 PM

Joe writes:

Sure, I can comment, Amy. There is plenty of baggage concerning Barak Obama and Islam.

Schlussel is right about the oneness of Islam the religion and Islam the culture. Why do you think Muslims are trying to use the "religion as a form of race" when attacking critics of Islam?

Obama's sympathies can be viewed as a form of al-taqiyya or the expression would be appropriate that the Senator from Illinois would be seen as a useful idiot for Islam. Both Obama's father and step father are Muslims. He attended Muslim schools in Indonesia, until he left for Hawaii. So he is steeped in the culture and could be blinded by actual threats from violent Islamist groups as POTUS. All in the name of diversity.

I haven't the vaguest idea of what you mean by "blinded by actualy threats from violent Islamist [sic] groups," but any U.S. president would probably receive death threats from violent Muslim terrorist groups.

By the way, Amy, you overlooked one thing about Schlussel's article: the title. She called it "Barack Hussein Obama: Once A Muslim, Always A Muslim." If any of you don't believe that slovenly trull was intentionally misleading with that comment, let's talk Golden Gate Bridge. A few thousand bucks and it's yours. I'll stand by my statement. Little Miss Shit-gloss is sub-human filth.

Posted by: Patrick at June 30, 2007 8:21 PM

Patrick, be as righteous as you wanna be... There's something disturbing about seeing someone eager to crisply and repeatedly describe another person --a little-known media figure, at that-- as "sub-human filth." This is what I was getting at a few months ago when asking if there was anyone in the world who you admired.

Now, as per the recent exchange here with McKenna, I admire the Dark Side of the Force as much as any man. But you take too much glee in dropping these irredeemable condemnations. Dude, you're scary. In a tick-tick-boom kinda way.

Posted by: Crid at July 1, 2007 12:01 AM

Here is the definition of treason

Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

legal definiton of treason
US Constitution Article 3 Section 3

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Constitution defines treason as specific acts, namely "levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort". A contrast is therefore maintained with the English law, whereby a variety of crimes, including conspiring to kill the King or "violating" the Queen, were punishable as treason. In Ex Parte Bollman (1807), the Supreme Court ruled that "there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war".

Under English law effective during the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, there were essentially five species of treason. Of the five, the Constitution adopted only two: levying war and adhering to enemies. Omitted were species of treason involving encompassing (or imagining) the death of the king, certain types of counterfeiting and fornication with women in the royal family of the sort that would call into question the parentage of successors. One important distinction is that the encompassing the death species of treason was most used by the English government to silence political opposition and was expressly excluded by the authors. In fact, James Wilson wrote the original draft of this section, and he was involved as a defense attorney for some accused of treason against the Patriot cause.

Section 3 also requires the testimony of two different witnesses on the same "overt" act, or a confession by the accused in open court, to convict for treason. This rule was derived from an older British law, the Treason Act 1695. In Cramer v. United States, the Supreme Court ruled that "every act, movement, deed, and word of the defendant charged to constitute treason must be supported by the testimony of two witnesses." In Haupt v. United States, however, the Supreme Court found that two witnesses are not required to prove intent; nor are two witnesses required to prove that an overt act is treasonable. The two witnesses, according to the decision, are required to prove only that the overt act actually occurred.

Punishment for treason may not "work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person" so convicted. The descendants of someone convicted for treason could not, as they were under English law, be considered "tainted" by the treason of their ancestor. Furthermore, Congress may confiscate the property of traitors, but that property must be inheritable at the death of the person convicted.


Seems to me even if under the guise of religion if a cleric of any faith encourages violence againts the state or gives sactuary to those how have commited violence then thy are tratiors and eligable for execution

Posted by: lujlp at July 1, 2007 2:00 AM

The qualities of leadership for a future POTUS have to come under serious scrutiny if and when a Presidential candidate has some serious issues with his/her beliefs that openly conflict with reality.

Would Obama's views on Islam cloud his judgement on a potential threat to the USA by Islamists? Would an Obama White House interfere with DOJ investigations on domestic Islamic charities and groups? A similar action done by Reno's DOJ in the 1990s. Remember how many board members of CAIR have been indicted, tried and convicted of terrorist related activities. Is there any other religious civil rights/charities group with such a track record? The B'Nai Brith? Catholic charities? Protestant charities? Nope. Just the boys and girls who practice the faith with the biggest chip on its shoulder, Islam. Can anyone tell me of another faith that has anything similar to al-taqiyya as a moral precept?

People gave the current POTUS the benefit of the doubt on his lack of foreign travel before taking the oath of office on 1/21/01. Some thought it would give him an extra edge during international relations and they have learn to regret such notions.

Now with Obama's international experience, living in a troubled and predominantly Muslim nation of Indonesia could make statements that Islam ended racism and could be a model for the USA without some credibility problems? Would you expect more from a person with his background than say an average American who has never left the states? Does Barry suffer from wishful thinking? His vision of what the world should be as a form of objective reality? Does going on Oprah and talking about how reprehensible his father's actions was enough to publicly discredit the potential dangers of Islam?

The junior Senator from Illinois has some serious credibility issues to deal with asap. Its not only his clueless views on Islam, but the lack of real leadership experience, the fast rise from obsurity to media darling without any real ordeals, trauma or tragedies. Daddy issues does not equate a profile in courage in my book. But qualifies him as the typical boomer.

On a personal level I had to deal with the 'goodwill ambassadors' while working for a NGO in the M.E. You know the types who want to be 'friends' at all costs with the locals. I would give a short 3 minute speech before dropping them off at a local settlement or village and come back in 3 or 4 days to claim what was left of their body. Many thought of my behavior was quite offensive, but a fact of reality. In some cases the hyper sensitive types would complain to my superiors. I've kept a memo of one particular MD from the States referring to me as "That Asshole" in her lists of complaints. How dare a 25 year old tell her how to act out in the field and on and on. So I viewed my co-workers as the potential threat to my well being than the locals. Why? I knew the deal with the natives, but had to guess the motives behind the fucking idealistic types.

Like I've said before al-Taqiyya comes in all shapes and sizes. Anyone who believes Islam is the religion of peace and jihad is only referred to as a spiritual struggle (which I've discussed in great detail too) in the shadow of the London Car Bombs plot is a form of al-Taqiyya. Islamists or jihadis will use anything to give their political-religious movement an extra advantage.

Posted by: Joe at July 1, 2007 9:23 AM

Patrick, be as righteous as you wanna be... There's something disturbing about seeing someone eager to crisply and repeatedly describe another person --a little-known media figure, at that-- as "sub-human filth." This is what I was getting at a few months ago when asking if there was anyone in the world who you admired.

But you're not the least bit bothered by someone trying to stigmatize a well-known political figure by inferring that he's a Muslim, just because she might be unhappy with the idea of him becoming President. Got it.

As for what you were trying to get at, well, sorry to hear that you were physically unable, for some reason, to come right out and say it.

Seems like a few years ago, there was a time when certain lines weren't crossed. Yes, politics got dirty, but there were some things you just didn't do, out of a sense of personal responsibility. You're trying to beat your opponent, not have him killed somewhere down the road by some overzealous fanatic who happens not to like what this person is rumored to be. If Obama happens to be the Democratic party's first choice for presidential candidate, I wonder how markedly increased his chances will be for assassination, should the inference that he's a Muslim be circulating about.

Karl Rove apparently is riding the crest of the wave in this new era of beat your opponent at all costs, even if it does stigmatize them to the point where they have to fear for their safety much more than the average politician. One of his clients, Harold See, was running for a judge's seat in Alabama against Mark Kennedy. Kennedy has a sterling record in child advocacy and one of his ads showed him with children. Good, powerful campaign ad. Kennedy, by the way, is not your run of the mill "tobaccy-chewin' Alabama native; he looks like an accountant. But as powerful as this ad might seem, it's no problem for Rove. All he's got to do is start a whisper campaign with some University students that Kennedy is a pedophile. Since the students come from all over the state, they can just bring this rumor back with them, giving the impression that it's just common knowledge.

I'm sure it never once entered that ethical black hole that Rove has for a brain that Kennedy's life might be in danger with this ugly rumor. Noooooo problem. If he gets assaulted, beaten up, killed or whatever, hey, he can't campaign, can he?

Simply put, I don't like irresponsible and malicious rumor-mongering, and those who indulge in such things are deserving of all the bad names at my disposal. Sorry to hear that such things are just peachy-keen with you.

Or is there a spark of indignation in you over this after all? Dare I hope that you'll actually haul out your "big gun," and call Karl Rove a "petulant teenager"? Boy, I'd be impressed!

P.S. By the way, in spite of Rove's viciousness and lack of ethics and responsibility, Kennedy won his race against Harold See...by less than 1% of the vote. Although, he was so shaken by the incredible malice directed toward him by the See camp, even 10 years after the event, he left politics altogether. For those interested in seeing this story in The Atlantic Monthly click here.

Posted by: Patrick at July 1, 2007 10:08 AM

By the way, Crid. Go suck an egg!

Posted by: Patrick at July 1, 2007 10:11 AM

> But you're not the least
> bit bothered by someone
> trying to stigmatize...

A little bothered, but not much. If what she's saying is way out of line, or doesn't pan out factually, everyone will know. And given his name, Americans have the right to be curious. Actually, they'd have the right to be curious even if his name were John Smith or Melvin Goldfarb.

> there was a time when
> certain lines weren't
> crossed.

I don't think so. Everyone likes to imagine that there was a Golden Era when people were more decent, but that ain't likely. There's nothing new under the sun. There's no serious history of political conduct where this passage would apply:

> there were some things you
> just didn't do, out of a sense
> of personal responsibility.

Political mores are always in transition, and always include constraints that some player feels are intolerable.

> I wonder how markedly increased
> his chances will be for
> assassination, should the
> inference that he's a
> Muslim be circulating about.

That's far-fetched. His name infers Islam. A black(ish) guy running for national office has probably given these threats some serious thought anyway, as has anyone running for national office... Y'know, kitchens and heat. And it's not like there's been any trend toward threatening Muslims in the United States... Quite the opposite. You may have been vaguely discomfited by the tone of this woman's post, but I don't see how she's earned name-calling of "human filth." That's worse, and portends more erratic violence, than anything Obama has encountered (or probably will encounter). If --just once over the years-- you had described admiring someone with that same laserlike feeling, you'd [A] be more convincing and [B] be less worrisome as a Bickle figure. Tick... Tick...

> the crest of the wave
> in this new era

Seriously, how old are you? Do you remember the 80's? The 60's? The 20's? Chicago? Kansas City?

> If he gets assaulted,
> beaten up, killed or
> whatever

Was he in fact assaulted, beaten up, killed or whatever? Karl Rove is not a nice man. But he's not atypical.

> in spite of Rove's viciousness
> and lack of ethics and
> responsibility

Rove! Rove! RoveRoveRove!

> Go suck an egg!

Better... Better.

Posted by: Crid at July 1, 2007 12:07 PM

Patrick, you seem to be conducting a pre-emptive defense of Obama: "Don't you dare impugn him! Don't, don't, don't!!! If you do, you are human filth, and you need to fear the assassin."

Posted by: doombuggy at July 1, 2007 1:52 PM

Doombuggy writes:

Patrick, you seem to be conducting a pre-emptive defense of Obama: "Don't you dare impugn him! Don't, don't, don't!!! If you do, you are human filth, and you need to fear the assassin."

And you seem to be conducting a pre-emptive campaign against intelligence, or at least reading comprehension. I never said don't impugn him (or anyone else). I didn't even say you couldn't impugn him with lies. However, demagoguery, particularly by inferring someone is or was a Muslim or pedophile, when in fact, you have no evidence to support this claim, carries with it a certain stigma that is repulsive. People like Schlussel and Rove can shove their aspertions right up their asses, because that's where they got them from.

And I certainly never said that Schlussel or Rove should "fear the assassin." I was suggesting that certain allegations might cause other people to fear attacks upon their person, including assassination or battery.

And Crid, feel free to step down from Cloudcuckooland any time you care to and visit earth someday. Let's see. When I was in the military, Clinton had just been elected. I heard of some of my fellow soldiers, even in uniform, actually say that Clinton shouldn't show on Ft. Bragg (where I was stationed) because he might get shot. I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. He hadn't even been in office long enough to have done anything to hurt the military. Soreloserville, you know.

While I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, Kenny Junior French, a soldier in an engineering unit on the same post I was stationed at (though I never met or even remember seeing him; Ft. Bragg is quite large), opened fire on Luigi's Restaurant, screaming about Clinton letting "faggots" into the military. Don't ask me why Luigi's. It wasn't known to be any kind of gay hangout. Just an ordinary restaurant, out of bunch of others on MacPherson Church road, nicknamed "restaurant row." Killed four people (including the owners, a straight married couple), and wounded many more.

And on the subject of pulling things out of one's ass...

Crid writes:

And it's not like there's been any trend toward threatening Muslims in the United States... Quite the opposite.

Really? There's no trend toward threatening Muslims in the United States. I guess you better let these guys know. The FBI, huh? They just don't know what they're talking about, do they, Crid?

Posted by: Patrick at July 1, 2007 3:06 PM

Oh, I forgot.

Crid writes:

A little bothered, but not much. If what she's saying is way out of line, or doesn't pan out factually, everyone will know.

I don't whether to be disgusted by your naivete or laugh hysterically about it. People have swallowed lies, even in light of evidence to the contrary, since the dawning of the race.

Posted by: Patrick at July 1, 2007 3:10 PM

> They just don't know what they're
> talking about, do they, Crid?

Well, they haven't done much for me lately. (Your citation is five years old, and immediately followed the the gravest attack our nation has ever seen. What numbers would have been tolerable to you?) Anyway, I just don't like the spooks much.

The relevance of the Luigi's incident is lost. I saw two guys get in a bar fight once...

> People have swallowed lies,
> even in light of evidence
> to the contrary

Right right, we're all just sheeple. Dude, you're so bitter. You're beyond Bickle. Do you have positive feelings for anyone or anything at any time?

Posted by: Crid at July 1, 2007 4:42 PM

Crid writes:

Do you have positive feelings for anyone or anything at any time?

Can always tell when you're throwing in the towel when you resort to this idiocy. And try to exercise more restraint when you're in bars. This fighting is apt to land you in jail.

It's a shame you can't admit how childishly naive your assertion was, about how "people will know" if what someone says "doesn't pan out factually." And our politicians are just upright and paragons of honesty who would never dare spread lies about their opponents, since "people will know." I guess the term "swiftboated" made it into the vernacular without your noticing. And we all know how unsuccessful Herr Goebbels was with his formula of repeating a lie... It's a shame he didn't understand that if something doesn't "pan out factually, people will know."

And no, I didn't say that "we're all just sheeple." Everything has to be one extreme or the other to you, huh? We couldn't have some sheeple and some who are able to think for themselves in a society, huh?

Posted by: Patrick at July 2, 2007 12:59 AM

Patrick, you seem to be telling us that your indignation is more rightous than ours.

Why all the name calling? In the context of this blog, that reveals some unappealing insecurity.

You say Rove will do "anything to win". Has he committed a crime? When? Where?

I don't see Democrat operatives as any better than Rove. See, for example, Jack Ryan's Senate campaign in Illinois.

Posted by: doombuggy at July 2, 2007 4:43 AM

> Can always tell when you're
> throwing in the towel

No no, just trying to establish that I'm not workign against a raving lunatic, a battered child from an orphanage or something. Demonstrating a sense of proportion would help your case, not mine. I don't want to be accused to pestering the enfeebled.

> how childishly naive your
> assertion was, about how
> "people will know" if what
> someone says "doesn't pan
> out factually."

Patrick, you have an essentially mild and technical disagreement with her position, and so you called her "human filth." I don't think that's necessary, helpful or expository. If anyone cared enough to read her, she would be countermanded by other citations. But almost no one knows about her. Also, she appears to have gotten it right. Furthermore if Muslims in the United States were living in terror, they'd let us know. This is the one country in the world where there are moonbats (ahem) who'd listen to them.

> Everything has to be one
> extreme or the other to
> you, huh?

At least I'm grading on a curve. Who do you admire, Patrick? Or are we all just "human filth"?

> you seem to be telling us
> that your indignation is
> more rightous than ours.

Exactly. And there's more to be more to this guy than sputtering indignation... We presume.

> the term "swiftboated" made
> it into the vernacular without
> your noticing.

He lied about being across the border on Christmas, right? I read it in black and white, which was all I needed. And then he lied about throwing away his medal. I'm very, very glad he's not president.

Posted by: Crid at July 2, 2007 1:56 PM

Discussion ended.

Posted by: Patrick at July 2, 2007 4:47 PM

You're beautiful when you're imperious...

Posted by: Crid at July 2, 2007 6:07 PM

Oh, I don't mean to tell you what to do. If you want to keep on talking about me without my participation, go right ahead.

I just came to realize that to reply adequately to everything that's being thrown at me (95% is just flinging up dust), would entail a post longer than this board could accommodate, I bet.

In Cridworld, apparently, you get to say what you want, but ala Leona Helmsley, supplying evidence for one's claims "is for the little people." You seem to think that my example of Rove's whisper campaign against Mark Kennedy is not some new low, that there never was a time when our standards of civility in public discourse were higher. An ordinary person with even a rudimentary knowledge of debate (which you have shown time and time again, that you would be loathe to acquire), would recognize that we don't make bald assertions. So, cough up some examples of politicians accusing each other of child molestation, or something similarly repulsive. Show me the push polls that were conducted in the time of Abraham Lincoln. (Let's give you a hint: Push polls are conducted over the telephone.)

I'm not going to sit here and try to defend myself against the accusation against my sanity, when a decent person wouldn't have introduced it in the first place. I guess we can add the mentally ill to Crid's LOOOOOONG list of categories of individuals of whom he hates.

And doombuggy doesn't get a pass either. There are few things more repulsive to me than the kind of person who simply has to twist what is written to something that was never said. You aren't interested in discussion. Your only interest is in keeping me so tied up in defending myself against smears based upon your distortions of what was actually said. I never said that people who spread lies about their opponents should fear the assassin, you dumbass. I said that certain lies against individuals could cause those individuals to fear for their safety. Is this concept so hard for you to understand? Suppose in the dead of the night, I put notices on the lawns in your neighborhood advising people that you are a child molestor. Is it so hard to comprehend that you might have reason to fear for your safety?

Posted by: Patrick at July 2, 2007 11:23 PM

I guess, because I'm a dumbass, I wouldn't care.

Posted by: doombuggy at July 2, 2007 11:49 PM

> If you want to keep on talking
> about me without my participation

It's a little late to pretend you have no voice, or haven't exercised it. I always go for the last word for two reasons: 1) I'm a quarrelsome little man and 2) it should never be said that an argument went unanswered.

> ala Leona Helmsley, supplying
> evidence for one's claims "is
> for the little people."

I stayed in her hotel once, the little one about a block north of the Intercontinental, near the UN. The rooms were no larger than the I's, but they weren't as nice. The lobby was microscopic and artless.

Some bad things happened to a few Muslims after 9/11, but I don't think this is a horrible stain on our national character. More to the point, I don't think Muslims in the United States are cowering in fear of bloodthirsty neighbors. I'd wager they feel safer here than anywhere else in the world, with less likelihood that some distant stranger is going to flick a wrist and mangle their lives. This is as it should be for Americans of any origin.

> You seem to think that my example
> of Rove's whisper campaign against
> Mark Kennedy is not some new low

It's pretty grim, but it's irrelevant and not a complete surprise.

> So, cough up some examples
> of politicians accusing each
> other of child molestation
> or something similarly repulsive.

Huh? Maybe I could, but I thought this was about Shussel.

> LOOOOOONG list of categories
> of individuals of whom he hates.

Well, I hate a lotta people, but I make allowances for human nature. And for an intrusive interest in the decency of elected officials.

> notices on the lawns in your
> neighborhood advising people
> that you are a child molestor.

First of all, there it is again, twice in one comment. Is this code? Is there some wellspring of feeling & experience that needs therapeutic investigation?

> you might have reason to fear

Not apt. Doombuggy is a private citizen, not a candidate for President who should expect his character and beliefs to be thoroughly and publicly vetted. Secondly, being Muslim and molesting children are not the same thing. No commenter on this blog would assert that they were.

Here are some samples of your wording from this thread:

> does not impress
> willingness to lie
> filth, plain and simple
> glossed with shit
> like an asshole
> human filth (2nd)
> beyond reprehensible
> slovenly trull
> intentionally misleading
> Little Miss Shit-gloss
> sub-human filth (3rd!)
> have him killed somewhere
> overzealous fanatic
> increased.. chances for assassination
> ethical black hole
> assaulted, beaten up, killed
> irresponsible and malicious
> rumor-mongering
> deserving of all the bad names
> viciousness and lack of ethics
> incredible malice
> Go suck an egg!
> campaign against intelligence
> demagoguery
> repulsive
> shove their aspertions right up their asses
> fear attacks
> assassination or battery
> Cloudcuckooland
> might get shot
> pulling things out of one's ass...
> disgusted
> swallowed lies
> this idiocy
> childishly naive
> child molestation
> similarly repulsive
> individuals of whom he hates
> few things more repulsive
> to twist what is written
> tied up in defending
> smears based upon your distortions
> certain lies
> fear for their safety
> in the dead of the night
> child molestor
> fear for your safety

This all seems overheated considering our righteous interest in making sure our new president isn't spiritually aligned with an enemy we're fighting in two wars on the other side of the globe at great cost in blood and treasure. I'm going to expect at least as much clarity on this point as Kennedy had to give regarding Rome in 1960. Obama's going to have to describe his position again and again, in front of great numbers of people, using very small words. And then he's going to have to answer questions. You gotta problem with that?

Posted by: Crid at July 3, 2007 1:47 AM

Doombuggy writes:

I guess, because I'm a dumbass, I wouldn't care.

Offended by my choice of words? Well, let me tell you something, I was kind of offended by this:

Patrick, you seem to be conducting a pre-emptive defense of Obama: "Don't you dare impugn him! Don't, don't, don't!!! If you do, you are human filth, and you need to fear the assassin."

Well, none of those things are actually what I believe. And it's rather creepy to suggest that I think Debbie Schlussel should "fear the assassin." That's pretty much threatening her with assassination, even if I don't suggest that I would be the actual assassin. (Technically, since she's not a public figure, she can't be assassinated.) And adding your voice along these lines to Crid's really repulsive comparisons to Bickle don't help much.

But, you know what? I thought, maybe Doombuggy just misunderstood me. So, I posted a correction, hoping you'd understand what I actually was saying. But no acknowledgement from you. I felt sure that you were a decent person and wouldn't want to let someone stand wrongfully accused of something really twisted and creepy. But you just plowed right on, not acknowledging what my correct stance was: that smearing people with wrongful accusations (like trying to conceal their Muslim heritage because they secretly side the enemy or being a child molester) might actually incite some hostility, possibly even violence directed toward them.

As I said before, I DON'T LIKE IRRESPONSIBLE RUMOR-MONGERING!

And now, I will extend a courtesy to you that never even occurred to you to extend to me: I'm sorry I called you a dumbass. I don't really believe you're a dumbass. Your remarks are actually suggesting someone very intelligent. I was offended by the suggestion that I was saying that those who malign Obama "need to fear the assassin." It was creepy to me and I responded in anger.

And Crid, I have something for you, too, that you're sure to love: the last word. I give it to you. I'm not going to respond to a single point you made, so you can crow your victory and dance in the streets, and be absolutely right, right, right about every single solitary thing you've ever said since the day you were born. I'll dance for you, too. Break it down!

Posted by: Patrick at July 3, 2007 6:35 AM

what a load of rubbish!

Posted by: James Morrison at July 3, 2007 8:55 AM

> the last word. I give
> it to you.

It's not yours to bestow, but I'm, like, totally thinking there's a reason you don't want to answer the larger point. Sure Patrick, in some sub-statistical, zero-consequence, theoretical way, Barack Obama might have suffered an imaginary, weightless, less-than-trivial moment of risk because of Shussel's post.

But I think it was worth it, because I want the issue addressed head-on. If Obama had been attacked by someone who read such a post, we'd certainly see that the attacker was a Chapman/Hinkley/Oswald type of indisputably compromised sanity. We can't structure our world around those people... After the first few days, nobody was complaining much about security at Virginia Tech, either. Such people are by definition unpredictable.

The impolite clarity of the political process may be uncomfortable for you, but it's wrong to say that Shussel was "irresponsible rumor-mongering."

Glad to clear that up for you. If there's anything else, don't hesitate to speak up.

Posted by: Crid at July 3, 2007 12:37 PM

Patrick: best wishes.

Posted by: doombuggy at July 3, 2007 9:47 PM

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