Who Pays On Dates?
Certain men make the mistake of worrying about what's "fair" on dates rather than what works. No, nobody wants some gold digger, but the way to weed out the conniving girls isn't to storm around complaining that a woman doesn't pay on the first date, or to try to divide the check down to the half-penny.
Sure, things are confusing out there. Some girls do pay because they think it's the fair thing to do. Some girls don't pay because it's how they're raised. Some girls do pay because they don't want to "owe" the guy sex. Some girls don't pay because they're looking for free dinner. What to do, what to do?
I just posted another Advice Goddess column, a response to this letter:
As a single male, I find something extremely repulsive. More and more, women are making as much or more money than men. Yet, on dates, when the check comes, these career women conveniently disappear to the bathroom. I smell a scam. I’m sick of this ugly “What's mine is mine/what's yours is mine” mentality. So, a little philosophical consistency here, or else I give up.--More Than A Wallet
An excerpt from my answer:
Life isn’t fair, Bucky. Deal with it. Or, if you’d rather, bow out of the dating game, and spend your nights on men’s movement blogs posting rambling screeds about the “feminazis” and this new set of filet mignon mercenaries. Sure, men and women are now equal under the law, but that hasn’t made them the same biologically. Because women are the ones who get knocked up and stuck with mouths to feed, they evolved to seek “providers’” -- guys who show signs they’ll stick around to fork over gifts and grub after the fun is done. Modern women are still getting this directive from their genes -- even staunch feminists, chicks with six-figure incomes, and women who think of themselves as “Barren!” In short, there are about 1.8 million years of evolutionary hard-wiring standing between you and any clever notions that you’ll wax your legs and Nair your mustache if she’ll just pick up the tab.We aren’t the only species that goes on dinner dates. Anthropologist Helen Fisher calls gifts of food one of the “universal features of wooing” -- and guess who’s almost always responsible for the check? Fisher writes in Anatomy of Love that the boy black-tipped hang fly plies his crush with aphids, daddy longlegs, or houseflies. (Hard to say which wine goes best.) “The male common tern often brings a little fish to his beloved. The male roadrunner presents a little lizard.” And then, of course, there’s the ultimate courtship gift, the male praying mantis letting the female praying mantis eat his head during sex.
You don’t have to go that far, but you could maybe buy a girl a glass or two of wine without making out like you’ve fallen victim to one of the greater injustices of our time: “I have a dream…that one day men and women will go halfsies on dinner…” Actually, a glass or two of something-or-other, not dinner, is all you should be buying on the first date. You don’t shell out big for a near-stranger. The point is getting to know a girl, not getting to know whether she prefers Kobe beef to lobster. And yes, the person who does the asking out -- usually the man, poor dear -- should do the paying. On at least the first and probably the second date. Beyond then, if a woman’s wallet seems welded shut, have a little talk and suss out whether she worries you’ll think ill of her for paying (some men do), or whether she’s just a leech with lipgloss. >>cont'd>>
The rest, including comments, is here.
Amy, I just wanted to see if the link I tried to post in the actual column works here.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/SuddenlySingle/MoneyIsntTheCulpritInMostDivorces.aspx
Flynne at December 12, 2007 8:45 AM
Nonetheless, in a world in which the same evolutionary process has resulted in mating rituals where girls make the rules, and are the courted half rather than the courting, this and related phenomena in the present evolutionary nanosecond are kind of depressing for the boy who just wants to give his love his little doily made of flies. Some people delude themselves into believing they can articulate this frustration and melancholy in the new terms of the new debate. Unfortunately, that is an illusion. But hey - put it on the list, and suck it up, I guess.
dan at December 12, 2007 3:00 PM
NO SALE. You ladies won your revolution and now you must court us!
ROMAT RAST at December 12, 2007 6:25 PM
Oy. I'd be a lot more sympathetic to arguments that somethings "are the way they are and they aren't going to change" if those arguments got applied fairly to both sides.
Frankly, I think your "advice" could have used a touch more "consider this" and a touch less "Get over it, loser man." For example, Consider that the Universal Rhetorical Pregnancy Out has diminishing persuasiveness returns every time a man hears it.
I say this as someone who, in his dating life, followed the advice you proffer. First date was on me. Other dates, negotiable on a number of factors. Now that I'm married, we have a rule that whoever suggests, pays. This rule is just, economically sound, and possesses a fresh springtime scent.
Andrew at December 13, 2007 9:16 AM
Look, I'm telling men what they need to do to optimize their chances. You can choose to negotiate to the penny who pays. It generally doesn't end well. And I say that as somebody who doesn't believe in marriage or being supported by anybody but myself.
Amy Alkon at December 13, 2007 9:28 AM
PS I suggest you go to the link and read the whole thing. And the comments.
Amy Alkon at December 13, 2007 9:30 AM
... guys who show signs they’ll stick around to fork over gifts and grub after the fun is done.
Yeah, right. I did. She didn't. Now I'm the one who's stuck: a single dad and paying alimony to support her carefree lifestyle. I'd be a lot better off right now if she'd been hit by a bus instead.
I believed her when she said, "For better, for worse." Silly me.
Am I bitter? Does it show?
If you want to make jokes about that, FOAD.
Sam at December 26, 2007 4:14 PM
The thing is, you need to take responsibility for what you allow into your life. I've never expected a man to pay for me. My boyfriend does, because he's older than I am, and having me pay for him is, for him, the social version of a colonoscopy. But, the fact that he pays isn't why I'm with him. And he knows that. Especially since I offered to pay very early in the deal, and he about lost his teeth.
Nathaniel Branden (the therapist) once told me, "People tell you what they're about, if you're willing to listen." Many or most people aren't. And that's costly in the end.
Not going to make fun of you, but I will suggest you get Branden's book, The Art of Living Consciously: The Power of Awareness to Transform Everyday Life, which, I hope, will keep you from making the same mistake again.
Amy Alkon at December 26, 2007 5:22 PM
This may or may not be relevant but many dating advisers are telling men that paying a bunch of money up-front is a sign of weakness. There are worse things than being single, and one of them is paying for expensive dates for a girl who "isn't quite ready" while she's getting sodomized by some pot-smoking, cover band guitarist who lives in his mother's basement. Yeah, I'd rather go snowboarding with my brothers and never touch a woman again than put up with that garbage.
Never, never, NEVER do anything fancy on the first few dates unless the woman is so obviously into you that you have to keep her from tearing off your clothes on the 50-yard line of the Super Bowl. Go for beers or a nice glass of wine. If she balks then you're probably better off with the latest copy of Hustler and your favorite hand.
Mine's the left, by the way.
Asher at January 6, 2008 5:58 PM
Actually, that's just a symptom (paying loads of money up front) and probably of feelings of low self-esteem. If a guy doesn't feel like a loser, he'll intuitively know better than to wine and dine some near stranger. Frankly, as a girl who isn't a gold digger, I find that sort of big show on the first date creepy. Also, I don't want to be locked into dinner and some huge evening with some stranger who may turn out to be a dud. P.S. My first date with my boyfriend involved drinking a single Orange Crush for three hours straight. I believe that works out to maybe 50 cents an hour in dating costs. I was smitten out of my socks.
Amy Alkon at January 6, 2008 6:02 PM
Amy, my earlier comments aside I would submit that men who are actually trying to attract a future mother are in somewhat a different situation than are the men in your particular market. Most women in that market are still accustomed to the traditional setup and find it rather unsettling when a man does not comply. As a man who's pretty much resigned to spending his Friday nights dateless I can attest that the gung-ho "you go get 'em cowboy" and "just be confident" schtick has much success. Either you got it or you don't, and various social factors affect who don't. As for me I spend my Friday nights reading Nietzsche, playing chess or snowboarding with my brothers, rather than posting to men's boards.
Asher at January 6, 2008 8:16 PM
erm that should read:
As a man who's pretty much resigned to spending his Friday nights dateless I can attest that the gung-ho "you go get 'em cowboy" and "just be confident" schtick has VERY LITTLE success.
Telling men that swill just makes them anger and frustrated. I pretty much tell men that they're better off with Hustler and their . . . well, per my earlier post.
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