Do You Give The Addict A New Liver?
Or let him die? Which is what they did in the U.K.
From SkyNews:
A 22-year-old alcoholic has died after being refused a life-saving liver transplant because he was too ill to leave hospital and prove he could stay sober.Gary Reinback, 22, died from cirrhosis of the liver after becoming an alcoholic in his teens.
The alcoholic, from Dagenham, Essex, had admitted binge drinking since he was 13 but was only taken to hospital for the first time with liver problems 10 weeks ago.
He was never discharged.
His mother Madeline Hanshaw, 44, said: "These rules are really unfair."
She told the Evening Standard: "I'm not saying you should give a transplant to someone who is in and out of hospital all the time and keeps damaging themselves, but just for people like Gary, who made a mistake and never got a second chance."
She said he was "desperate to recover" but had deteriorated quickly.
Mr Reinbach's family said he had started drinking aged 11 when his parents split up and drank heavily from the age of 13.
He had recently tried to give up and had signed up for support group Alcoholics Anonymous just weeks before he was taken into hospital, they said.
His brother Luke, 18, told the Evening Standard: "They never gave him the chance to show he could change."
Mr Reinbach died at University College Hospital, London.
via Drudge
This is why you don't give the government power over your health: The state giveth, and the state taketh away.
In an ideal world, a person could choose to drink their way through multiple livers, which they could simply replace (as medicine allowed) through purchase on the open market. It's nobody's business what anyone chooses to drink if they're paying the tab themselves and funding their own organs. Can't wait till we have an actual free market in such things here in the US. Don't even get me started on the UK's socialist healthcare nightmare (which I survived after a decade, luckily).
Jackie Danicki at July 21, 2009 12:01 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/07/21/do_you_give_the.html#comment-1659258">comment from Jackie DanickiThis is why you don't give the government power over your health
I'm with you, Jax. Totally. Terrified about what Obama might be able to accomplish.
And actually, you've told me some of your UK stories - love to have you post some of them here (and yes, everybody, I know...anecdote =/= data).
Amy Alkon at July 21, 2009 12:19 AM
Given this guys apperent history and his quick decline, I doubt he'd have qualified for a liver by any US organ transplant panel
lujlp at July 21, 2009 1:18 AM
"...just for people like Gary, who made a mistake and never got a second chance.
"A" mistake? Ahh, no. He had a second chance every day of his life. There is no evidence he would have been more careful with the second one.
I actually know a fellow who died of liver failure due to his drinking. He never had a chance other than what he could muster, himself, and he ignored family and friends. Life is tough, it's tougher if you're stupid, and there's no way to change that.
And here is the other side of the government specter: a government regulation might have mandated that this man get a new liver, ahead of someone more deserving.
Yes, "deserving" is subjective, and it is also quite obvious on occasion.
Let us hear the story of where the next donated liver actually went.
Radwaste at July 21, 2009 2:03 AM
As lujlp points out, suitable livers for donation are few and far between. This man would not have gotten a transplant in the U.S., either. Unless he's fabulously wealthy, like Mickey Mantle or Larry Hagman, who both were able to bypass the normal selection criteria and get themselves new livers, despite the long waiting list and the fact that drunkards are never given liver transplants over an accidental infection, such as healthcare workers who come in contact with a HepC patient's blood.
Patrick at July 21, 2009 3:40 AM
"In an ideal world, a person could choose to drink their way through multiple livers,"
I generally agree that people should be allowed to do whatever the f they like - until it starts affecting others negatively of course.
Livers, as are most healthy/donate-able organs, are a rare commodity. I've always been under the impression that there aren't enough livers to go around. So, if a person chooses to be an alkie and needs several new livers over the course of his/her lifetime to survive that effectively denies another person that liver - of which another may not exist soon enough before the 2nd patient dies. It's all about timing!
Someone, somewhere, has to make a decision about who is "more worthy". That's why there is an entire organ-ization (hah) dedicated to judging patients' needs and if they qualify.
Not to mention the COST to insurance companies for someone to do something incredibly done, consistently over his/her lifetime that will inevitably cost the company hundreds and hundreds of thousands. That is directly translated into higher premiums for everyone else.
Once we can grow livers easily in a lab and if the person has enough money to pay for it then go to town with Johnnie (so long as you're taking a cab). I don't give a flying fuck. But a professional booze hound shouldn't get access to multiple livers when there are other, healthy people out there who need one, too.
Gretchen at July 21, 2009 5:26 AM
"incredibly done"
That's supposed to be "incredibly dumb".
Still working on my coffee.
Gretchen at July 21, 2009 5:29 AM
Livers can be donated by living donors, half an organ or less is acceptable. If Gary R. was on a waiting list for a deceased donor organ, I agree that there are more medically reasonable cases to give the liver to. If he had willing and matching living donors, such as his mother, siblings or friends), who saw it fit to save his life, then the transplantation should have not been prevented by anyone. The article does not make it clear, which was the case.
It was certainly not the government which prevented the transplantation, but the individual doctors. They always have to evaluate, if a medical treatment makes sense.
It is also not stated, if Gary would have survived with a new liver. It is possible that he was in no condition to undergo surgery, survive anesthesia or handle the strong immunosuppressive medications after surgery.
Without knowing more facts about this case, the discussion here can only be vague and biased.
Anne at July 21, 2009 5:45 AM
I don't think it matters whether this is a private or a government health situation.
Not everything can be fixed.
There are consequences to poor choices.
Sometimes you can't keep allocating resources to people who choose bad behaviors.
Like people who constantly bail out their kids who make poor choices.
He could be like the guy we had at the care center where I used to work. This guy had just got done raping a girl and someone called the police. This guy jumped in his car and ran from the police. He eventually crashed and ended up in a coma. He was at the care center for 8 years, in a coma, at the tax payers expense before he died. It had to cost the tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars.
David M. at July 21, 2009 5:57 AM
I made my feelings clear without reading the article yesterday, and by golly they haven't changed now that I have. He should not have recieved a liver. I'm glad he didn't.
Actions have consequences. My DH drinks more than I think is healthy. I've told him he gets arrested, don't bother calling. He gets ill, he WILL be arranging a one-car accident before he loses his life insurance. past that, I can't control him. Nor will I shelter him from his own behavior.
momof4 at July 21, 2009 6:26 AM
It's an interesting cautionary tale nonetheless. The point that shouldn't be lost is, someone in the government made a value judgement about a citizen's life, and enforced it.
I get a bit bemused by the political synchophants who talk about health care rationing like it will be a good thing for the citizenry in general. The point they miss is, from the government's economic perspective, a rational system for rationing health care would be to allocate the most and best care to the people who pay the most taxes. Guess who that group is? Half of America definitely isn't in it. And even more to the point, the people who are in that group generally don't vote for politicians who want to ration health care. So of course, there has to be a nudge-nudge-wink-wink aspect to advocating health care rationing, that presumes (without saying so) that the allocation system will be irrational. That's why the synchphants advocate it -- because they expect, deep down inside their little hearts, that they themselves stand to gain the most.
Cousin Dave at July 21, 2009 6:32 AM
wow, tough crowd. Did anybody notice this guy was 22. I cant imagine drinking so much to cause liver damage at 22. There must have been other factors.
ron at July 21, 2009 6:50 AM
Smokers are not eligible for heart transplants in the US. It would make sense that alcoholics would not be eligible for liver transplants. There is a finite number of donor organs available and those go to the best candidates. Doesn’t matter who’s making the decisions, that’s just the facts of life.
Roger at July 21, 2009 6:53 AM
Ahem— For the record, this is a story about divorce and incompetent parenting. Parents who split their children's souls open in the sixth grade should be careful about calling things "unfair".
That said, I'd say goodnight Mr. Reinback. Michael Jackson had some excuses, too, but we ran out of patience.
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 7:00 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/07/21/do_you_give_the.html#comment-1659290">comment from Crid [CridComment@gmail]Ahem— For the record, this is a story about divorce and incompetent parenting. Parents who split their children's souls open in the sixth grade should be careful about calling things "unfair"
I knew I could count on you for this, Crid.
Amy Alkon at July 21, 2009 7:37 AM
Pisses me off.
Attention parent who read Amy's blog, especially you happy-family types: If your sixth grader was a problem drinker, what would you do?
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 7:56 AM
Allowing payment for organs would solve much of the organ shortage problem. Actually doing something to solve a problem by getting the government out of the way isn't an option.
MarkD at July 21, 2009 7:59 AM
If I recollect correctly, Hagman had been 'clean' for a longer period of time before his transplant than had Mantle, perhaps making him a better risk. Even so, I believe comments from many doctors at the time indicated both were not good candidates. I believe it was these and a few other cases that caused revisions in transplant programs in the U.S. Despite that, there will always be ways for those with the resources to game any public or private system, as with Steve Jobs. Does their being able to beat the system via celebrity or money make decisions in other cases wrong?
sirhcton at July 21, 2009 8:06 AM
Wow I agree with Crid today.
The family is wringing their hands & crying that he didn't get a second chance? Where were they with an Intervention at 15, 17, 20?
I don't remember the ages in the UK, but I thought you could only go into pubs at 15 or 16, that the regular drinking/buying age was 18 or 21 still.
Did they just put it down as his new personality? Couldn't tell that a 13 year old was drunk?
~~~
from Ron above
I'd expect that the other factors are that he was drinking while the liver was growing in. So he just grew an infected liver. Didn't have a healthy one & then ruined it, like if he was an adult alcoholic.
MeganNJ at July 21, 2009 8:07 AM
Well obviously the parents suck ass. But it needed pointing out, you're right.
If he'd damaged his liver that much, I imagine the rest of his organs had serious problems too. Drinking doesn't just affect the liver, although it gets the brunt of it. He was gone no matter what. Now maybe someone else isn't dead who got the liver.
momof4 at July 21, 2009 9:06 AM
Sad story.
I'm confused about something. Were his parents livers available to be transplanted? Any family members livers available? Or was the the procedure itself flat out refused?
Makes me wonder why the parents weren't eligible to give him a life saving liver, even if only for a temporary basis? Were they alcoholics too with bad livers?
You don't learn to binge drink (like THAT) at 13 without watching the behavior somewhere in your immediate enviornment and see it working for someone else as a solution to problems...(reason for parents divorce? where is the father now? could he have been some asshole *abusive* drunk?).
Just sayin.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 9:28 AM
Parenthetically, just parenthetically, now: why do women have babymaking sex with asshole abusive drunks?
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 9:40 AM
Well, Cridmiester, you could also ask: why do asshole abusive drunks have babymaking sex with anything more coherent than a tree stump?
Flynne at July 21, 2009 9:48 AM
Seriously, though, does anyone here actually think that boy deserved a "second chance"? Who was it above who said the kid had a second chance every damned day of his life? All he had to do was quit drinking. He didn't. COuld he have? Maybe. Did anyone else offer to help him? Does that mean he gets a pass for a free liver, just because no one helped him quit? Where were the people who cared about him before his liver tanked?
Flynne at July 21, 2009 9:51 AM
Well, if people made babies only with well-adjusted, wonderful specimens of humanity, there'd be about 300 people on the whole planet.
MonicaP at July 21, 2009 9:52 AM
> why do asshole abusive drunks have
> babymaking sex with anything more
> coherent than a tree stump?
For the tail.
You knew that, right?
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 10:00 AM
Or why do men have sex and have babies with asshole abusive women? (just to make it fair).
Because addiction its a family dis-ease. Alcoholic/Addict homes are highly dysfunctional, and being a child in a home like that forces you to adopt some pretty friggin insane but necessary coping mechanisms for surivival.
Then there is "imprinting". Well, if the folks around you are screwed up...good luck!
And chances are, Gary would have grown up and done the same thing (had he lived) to his children if he had he not found recovery before then.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 10:00 AM
Crid you motherfucking insperational genius.
Why dont we start putting contreceptives in alcohol?
Imagine if one shot of whiskey, or a beer had enough hormnes in it to prevent sprem from fuctioning properly for the next 24, 48, or 72 hours?
And flynne no amount of alcohol will turn anyone into a dendrophile unless they always were one at heart
lujlp at July 21, 2009 10:05 AM
I think men fuck for tail, especially the drunk ones. Many, many of these women (it would appear) are fucking for babies. It's OK if you think I'm wrong, but when you ask where the Dad is now, we ought to be ready to ask who he was back in the day. And he was probably a dickweed in olden times, too. That Mommy had a screwy background doesn't excuse much.
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 10:16 AM
Ok, fine Crid. Be right...again, if you MUST.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 10:36 AM
>> And flynne no amount of alcohol will turn
>> anyone into a dendrophile ...
Ever been to Berkeley?
Feebie at July 21, 2009 10:42 AM
Just sayin'... Nobody's excusing this kid's misbehavior on account of sad background, and he's freaking deceased. Dead parrot... Choir invisible.
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 10:43 AM
Did everyone know that word but me?
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 10:43 AM
I didn't excuse the behavior. After 18, I don't do much to excuse anyone's behavior - I don't care how bad their childhood was.
There were assumptions made that this kid’s life would have been somehow immeasurably better if his parents hadn't divorced.
Eh, dunno about that.
Funny skit. We can count on Crid to bring a little levity with him! ;)
Feebie at July 21, 2009 10:55 AM
See, this is a case of actual rationing. Livers are a rare resource, and I don't have a problem with medical professionals and/or donor families/estates having a say in whether or not an inveterate drunk gets a liver. Government, however? No, thanks.
Crid - note how I'm not derailing the thread with inane personal attacks.
brian at July 21, 2009 11:34 AM
"and I don't have a problem with medical professionals and/or donor families/estates having a say in whether or not an inveterate drunk gets a liver. "
Well I sure the fuck would. Two words. Mickey Mantle.
I have a sick friend. She practically LIVED at Lucille Packard (Standford's Children's campus), and I was there quite a bit. She was waiting for a kidney transplant. There was a two year on the floor who through no fault of his own, needed a liver. Watching a two year old loose their life because there were no liver's available while watching Mantle get one weeks earlier...
There are no words to describe that.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 12:03 PM
Brian. i think i mis-read you there palzi. i see your point.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 12:14 PM
Feebie,
I just want to ask your opinion on this: Go Ahead, Buy An Illegal Immigrant A New Liver.
I don't think you were posting back then.
Jim P. at July 21, 2009 12:34 PM
> note how I'm not derailing the
> thread
Threads aren't rails. In free discussion, destination is unknown.
> with inane personal attacks.
Aw c'mon Brister, you're plenty inane even without curare!
Crid [CridComment@gmail] at July 21, 2009 1:36 PM
Jim,
Wow, I hadn't seen that.
There are lots of kids in this country who have to prove they have *insurance* to pay for a transplant before they are even allowed on the waiting list. Not just the means to pay for the surgery, but actually have to prove they are covered by insurance.
Are there no uninsured American children worthy of such a kind donation?
We help our own first if for no other reason, that these are the folks who will be caring for us when we are in our golden years and contributing to our society, right?
Plenty of American kids don't get on that list for lack of insurance. And plenty of American kids with insurance on the list don't get transplants in time to save their lives.
Nope, don't agree with it a bit.
Best I can do for ya.
Feebie at July 21, 2009 1:40 PM
Well, here ya go, Loojy:
While walking through Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, a man came upon another man hugging a tree with his ear firmly against the tree. Seeing this he inquired, "Just out of curiosity, what are you doing?"
"I'm listening to the music of the tree," the other man replied.
"You've gotta be kiddin' me."
”No, would you like to give it a try?"
Understandably curious, the man says, "Well, OK..." So he wrapped his arms around the tree and pressed his ear up against it. With this, the other guy slapped a pair of handcuffs on him, took his wallet, watch, car keys, then stripped him naked and left.
Two hours later another nature lover strolled by, saw this guy handcuffed to the tree stark naked, and asked, "What happened to you?"
He told the guy the whole terrible story about how he got there. When he finished his story, the other guy shook his head in sympathy, walked around behind him, kissed him gently behind the ear and said, "This just ain't gonna be your day, cupcake..."
o.O
Flynne at July 21, 2009 2:41 PM
This is exactly why we need genetic engineering, so we can grow replacement parts in a lab.
Not that we want to go overboard and end up with a four year old Rutger Hauer coming back from outer space warfare to crush our skulls for not giving him enough life while an elite team of Blade Runners hunts him through the decaying streets of a poisoned techno-future, but still, I could use me some spares.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 21, 2009 4:44 PM
But on the other handwho could say no the a replicant built like Sean Young of Daryl Hannah?
lujlp at July 21, 2009 5:14 PM
If you're looking for examples of how screwed state run health care can be, I wouldn't count this as being very convincing.
On the other hand, haven't the British been overly concerned about their people's drinking habits as of late? I wonder if denying the kid a new liver is a part of that concern. If that's the case, then that' pretty messed up. Not as messed-up as the four livers for the illegal immigrant story, though. I almost feel like canceling my donor status as well.
Jason S. at July 21, 2009 9:31 PM
The kid dieing of liver failure could be only from heavy drinking as they do not actually give numbers and "heavy drinking" is subjective. It could be from a mix of predisposition and heavy drinking. It could also have little to do with heavy drinking. He could have just had a time bomb liver, the drinking just increased the clock speed on the timer. So he dies now and not 10 years from now.
As far as those idiots canceling their donor status. That would only mean more middle aged Americans will die. Children have the greatest potential to benefit from a transplant and thus they are at the top of the list. Their immigration status will not affect the viability of the organ, like say drinking, smoking and whoring.
The shortage of organs can be fixed if 1) we silence those ass holes who want stem cell research shut down (not all of it even involves fetal cells, and even less require an abortion). 2)Convince more people the sign the damn donor card. More people die with viable organs than those that need them. How ever due to primitive superstition, basic paranoia (which may or may not be justified) and/or lazyness very few are organ donors. So when they die their organs are simple buried or incinerated.
vlad at July 22, 2009 7:41 AM
I've got my card. As DH says-pull the plug and pull me apart for spare parts, then burn and scatter the rest.
momof4 at July 22, 2009 8:44 AM
I don't see where society (National Health) has a responsibility to replace an alcoholics liver. That said, here is an interesting photo montage that reminded me of the humanity behind the destroyed lives...
http://dilidoo.com/2009/07/21/trash_of_the_day_life_of_a_drug_addict_drugs_i_it_is_the_plague_of_our_time_57_photos.html
Eric at July 22, 2009 9:07 PM
"pull the plug and pull me apart for spare parts, then burn and scatter the rest"
Throw my brain in a hurricane
The blind can have my eyes
The deaf can take both of my ears
If they don't mind the size
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mOkFwmfsk
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at July 23, 2009 1:01 PM
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