Detroit: The Motor City Becomes The Moron City
47 percent of Detroiters can't read, according to a new report. From WWJ radio:
According to a new report, 47 percent of Detroiters are "functionally illiterate." The alarming new statistics were released by the Detroit Regional Workforce Fund on Wednesday.WWJ Newsradio 950 spoke with the Fund's Director, Karen Tyler-Ruiz, who explained exactly what this means.
"Not able to fill out basic forms, for getting a job -- those types of basic everyday (things). Reading a prescription; what's on the bottle, how many you should take... just your basic everyday tasks," she said.
This is a major American city, not Calcutta. The question is, how many other cities are like it?
When I spoke to one 11th grade class at the inner city school here in LA, the teacher told me they read at the first, second, or third grade level. And they weren't special ed -- just a regular class.
"The question is, how many other cities are like it? "
To guess one, I'd say St. Louis.
Cousin Dave at May 5, 2011 7:32 AM
As an inner city school teacher of immigrants and refugees for the last 34 years what that teacher reported to you about reading levels is absolutely correct. My refugee students from other continents alsmost always speak and write English much better than my inner city American students. Especially my inner city male students. Don't even get me started on African -American racism vis a vis my continental Afrikan students...
Surfed at May 5, 2011 7:35 AM
This isn't an urban problem, it's a Black problem. The illiteracy ranks follow the proportion of Black residents. Though it's very un-PC to acknowledge, Blacks in the US average a standard deviation below the national average in IQ. That puts them on the cusp of retardation. So their reading abilities are about where you'd expect.
norm at May 5, 2011 7:39 AM
@Cousin Dave
Former St. Louis resident here -- and, actually (surprisingly?) StL consistently ranks high when it comes to literacy (No. 9 in 2010). They've got some of the best school districts in the country, and one of their public schools (Lafayette) is nationally and consistently recognized as one of the best. The city is also home to Wash U, SLU and, of course Barnes Jewish Hospital, all which attract some of the most educated people from around the world.
Now I live in Texas, where 1 in 5 adults can't read well enough to fill out a job application. I suspect that here, though, it's often a language-barrier issue.
sofar at May 5, 2011 7:51 AM
This is for Detroit city proper, not the burbs. The Detroit Free Press ran a list of the Detroit and suburban high school MEAP scores (Michigan Educational Assessment Program) recently. Scores for the suburban high schools generally all had a 90-99% pass rate. Detroit schools generally had a 2-6% pass rate. Pathetic!
AllenS at May 5, 2011 8:00 AM
Linked: A Manufacturing Renaissance?
david foster at May 5, 2011 8:04 AM
It is because we have not funded the schools properly.
(That was sarcasm.)
Spartee at May 5, 2011 8:25 AM
sofar, that must be some part of St. Louis I'm not familiar with. Not meaning to be snarky... I've spent some time there but I haven't been everywhere. But nearly every part of St. Louis that I have seen, with the exception of the area immediately around the Arch and the ballpark, looked post-apocalyptic to me. East St. Louis (which I realize is not part of St. Louis proper) was a holy-shit moment -- it looked like what I imagine that urban Zimbabwe must look like. I couldn't believe that such a place as East St. Louis exists in the United States.
Cousin Dave at May 5, 2011 8:26 AM
Otto at May 5, 2011 9:16 AM
You can teach people with IQs between 80-95 to read and to read well, and also to do math, but these have to be the only things you are teaching.
You can't be frittering away most of every day with enrichment activities like DARE, computer lab, little "science" demonstrations, films, PE, lunch, field trips, guest speakers, and who knows what else.
Reading and math are learned through nose to the grindstone BORING repetition. As soon as our public schools became unwilling to to this,(student self esteem is more important) the battle for both literacy and numeracy was lost.
Isabel1130 at May 5, 2011 9:42 AM
Every effect has its cause:
Detroit Board of Education President Otis Mathis admits he struggles to write coherent sentences, but he believes he's a role model for young students. . . .Mathis -- who was placed in special education classes as early as the fourth grade, graduated high school with a 1.8 grade point average and failed an English proficiency exam that held up his graduation at Wayne State University for more than a decade -- found himself the subject of intense scrutiny last week when Detroit News columnist Laura Berman published a series of his poorly-written emails.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/03/detroit_school_board_president_1.html
This is the person that Detroiters elected to run their schools. Democracy in action.
Dale at May 5, 2011 9:46 AM
I would add that you would see this on the South Side of Chicago as well.
You tend to see this in Matriarchal and lower income areas. Prmarily where public assistance is the norm. There is no need to strive for excellence in education, because the 'gubmint' will take care of you, and there is no need to strive for success.
However, I could be wrong.
Steve at May 5, 2011 9:51 AM
Prmarily, should be Primarily...
I really need to proofread more.
Steve at May 5, 2011 9:52 AM
sofar, Lafayette is in Rockwood, one of the best school districts, not St. Louis, which lost accreditation. We moved here for the schools. Even my child in special ed now meets or exceeds state testing standards.
People who value education and have the means seek places with good schools. They actually had to raise the bar for gifted education in Rockwood to an IQ of 135, as so many kids qualified at 130. This is not a random sample. Those with the least means of escaping are left in North St. Louis.
Ruth at May 5, 2011 10:05 AM
Accept low standards, and you'll see them met.
Robert at May 5, 2011 10:17 AM
The school board president can't even meet the standard of functional literacy, so I don't know how much lower standards can go. The notion that being able to read & write properly means you're acting white and not being authentically black must have something to do with this.
Martin at May 5, 2011 10:36 AM
@Cousin Dave and @Ruth
I should have specified that I meant the St. Louis metro area. I guess it's kind of tricky to figure out the "fairest" way to analyze a city's performance. Do you take into account "StL city proper" (which has only 300,000 people)? Or, do you assess the entire metro area (which has well over 2 million)? I would hazard a guess that, if you asked the average resident what they consider to be "St. Louis," they'd name off places like U City, Clayton and even Ladue (which are not, technically part of StL proper)
And CousinDave, if you are ever back, check out Dog Town, the Lafayette Square area and the Central West End. They are all in St. Louis proper, and are FAR from "apocalyptic."
sofar at May 5, 2011 10:50 AM
Regardless of whether that is true, what seems difficult to discount is that urban areas like Detroit (and Pontiac, which is Detroit writ smaller) is that they are unintended eugenics experiments. Racism concentrated Blacks in ghettos; subsequent near-elimination of institutionalized racism has allowed successful Blacks to "emigrate", leaving the rest as a distillate of failure.
Compounding that, the intermarriage rate of Black women, particularly in urban areas, is near as dammit to zero.
Presuming that is something like accurate, the problem is ugly as hell, and quite probably without solution.
Hey Skipper at May 5, 2011 10:56 AM
bullshit hey skipper, blacks performed much better just 30 years ago. The latest generations are just raised up with no father and mothers who have kids with 30 different men. Don't blame this on racism
ronc at May 5, 2011 11:29 AM
East St. Louis (which I realize is not part of St. Louis proper)
Unless you've been there, you can't understand just how scary that area can be. I recall that in the 1980s, there where sections of E ST. Louis that the police, ambulance and fire departments refused to go into because they'd take gunfire.
I R A Darth Aggie at May 5, 2011 11:36 AM
The objective is reliable Democratic voters, not educated citizens. People who can read can easily find the lies politicians spout to get reelected.
The system is working as intended.
MarkD at May 5, 2011 11:42 AM
I believe the Boston Globe once said, in an op-ed, that when it comes to combating illiteracy in children, the real work lies in convincing PARENTS that reading is fun.
Let's face it, there have ALWAYS been parents who are functionally literate but just don't enjoy reading (yes, even in the days before TV and video games) and have no idea how to read aloud to their kids without their kids' realizing that for the parent, it's nothing more than an annoying chore - not a soon-to-be-precious parenting memory. Hence, such kids grow up with few or no books in the house. Or maybe some kids get plenty of books from other adults, but they still pick up their parents' anti-intellectual attitude, so they read very little.
Why DON'T we focus more on the parents?
lenona at May 5, 2011 12:32 PM
ronc:
The fact that there are ghettos in the first place is very much the fault of institutionalized racism. Consequent policies (e.g. AFDC), proving the road to hell is paved with good intentions, resulted in concentrating social pathology.
Both conditions created the eugenics experiment we are seeing today.
On average. The right side of the distribution has left, and we can't rely on intermarriage.
Now what?
Hey Skipper at May 5, 2011 12:38 PM
Like George Bush said, "Is our children learning?"
BOTU at May 5, 2011 12:44 PM
so... Hey Skipper, you calling JFK's and especially LBJ's Great Society "unintended eugenics experiments"? I suppose it is strangely apt. This began there, and inner cities werent organized into "ghettos" at first back then. Even Cabrini Green or Robert Taylor [Chicago] were modern at the beginning.
so what caused the people living in them to go downhill so quickly? This problem didn't take decades to form, but it is getting worse.
Leona, I'm pretty sure that there are no parents to focus on, only single mother [70% in the inner city] and if her boys are out starting trouble, and knocking girls up, why do you think they would care about literacy? They may have never even seen anyone who works a job. If nobody works a job, why would they need an education?
SwissArmyD at May 5, 2011 12:51 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/05/detroit_the_mot.html#comment-2106400">comment from BOTUI was no George Bush fan, but the notion that he's stupid is untrue. The LA Times' Andrew Malcolm, now a friend of mine, who was press rep for Barbara Bush at one point, told me that Bush and Karl Rove had contests to see who could read the most books in a year -- good books -- and that Bush especially loved books about history.
Amy Alkon at May 5, 2011 12:56 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/05/detroit_the_mot.html#comment-2106401">comment from Amy AlkonPS And as somebody who speaks publicly and sometimes misspeaks, let me tell you, it's easy to stumble over words when you're making public statements. And again, I say that as somebody who was utterly disgusted by the Bush administration, the Iraq invasion, and much more.
Amy Alkon at May 5, 2011 12:57 PM
I'm not an expert; heck, I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but here is my guess: AFDC was intended to alleviate poverty among single mothers; however, its architects failed to take on board that the more you pay for something, the more of it you are going to get.
Compounding that seemingly obvious oversight, Black males, already over-represented at the bottom in terms of income, were effectively priced out of marriage and fatherhood, because the presence of their income eliminated AFDC.
Add to that the war on drugs, and there you have your perfect storm.
If, by "modern at the beginning" you mean that stack-a-prole flats were a new idea, then you are right.
I got a drive through of Cabrini Green not too long after they were built. Already it was a hell hole, like a prison without the charm or the barbwire.
Then you are someone, and there are many, who takes the most simplistic possible view of it.
See if you can sit down and describe the state of affairs prior to the invasion. Be sure to include all the actors: France, Russia, the UN, sanctions on Iraq, bin Laden, Saddam and his actions with respect to both Iran and Israel, etc.
Then extend that to considering the options on offer, and their consequences. Pay particular attention to the certainty of a nuclear arms race between Iran and Iraq, and its knock-on effects. While you are at it, consider the other political ramifications attending those options.
Finally, presuming you are so disgusted with the invasion of Iraq, may I presume you prefer that Saddam was still in power?
Hey Skipper at May 5, 2011 1:47 PM
Hey Skipper's analysis isn't far off from those of Sowell and McWhorter. Basically they've identified a similar schism in the modern development of black communities. Where you have a significant upwardly mobile population and a large degenerate population, but the middle has been hollowed out since the later 60's. Sowell addresses the IQ issue directly and attributes it to a sort of reverse Flynn effect.
norm at May 5, 2011 2:25 PM
Presuming that is something like accurate, the problem is ugly as hell, and quite probably without solution.
It's being solved right now in New Orleans, where the inner-city schools are set to outperform the state average next year. The dropout rate has also been cut in half in the last four or five years (I don't have the exact dates).
The New Orleans Math & Science High School (Sci High), which opened after Hurricane Katrina, should be a national model; it's a public school with open enrollment and a very challenging curriculum. Only 20% of Sci High students have a parent with any college experience -- but 70% of the current graduating class is going to college. And the dropout rate is less than one percent... at a public inner-city school. The dropout rate is probably higher at most private prep schools.
The secret, I believe, is that every family is required to put in 20 hours work per semester at the school. Making the parents responsible is the key.
Kevin at May 5, 2011 3:00 PM
"I was no George Bush fan, but the notion that he's stupid is untrue."
Ditto. I ask anyone who claims that: "Are you or have you qualified to fly an F-102?"
Then it's time to change the subject. It's unfortunate that he had so little charisma.
Meanwhile, our current President probably didn't write his own book and must have a teleprompter.
Radwaste at May 5, 2011 3:12 PM
On the other hand, more competent hands now hold the till of the Detroit Public Schools, thanks to the Governor of Michigan:
Fittingly, the new emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools is no stranger to controversy, intense pressure, labor unions or news media attention.
Roy S. Roberts had all of that, in abundance, during his shooting-star rise to the top ranks at General Motors, culminating as group vice president over North American sales and marketing during a tumultuous period for GM at the turn of the century.
He also was the central figure in a race-tinged controversy in 1994, when he was rejected for membership in the exclusive Bloomfield Hills Country Club, prompting GM's then-Chairman Jack Smith and Chief Financial Officer Mike Losh to resign from the club in protest.
. . .
Since leaving GM, Roberts has served on several corporate boards and as a trustee of his alma mater, Western Michigan. He also has been president of the national board of directors of the Boy Scouts of America and was one of the initial investors in the MGM Grand casino in Detroit.
Accomplished and credible on race issues. Unfortunately, the DPS finances are so bad its hard to see how academic achievement can improve. His predecessor as emergency financial manager, Robert Bobb, spent most of his time fighting the Bord of Edyoucashun and rooting out all the fraud and theft.
Dale at May 5, 2011 3:53 PM
Bush was a C student, Obama uses a teleprompter, the Detroit Board of Ed President had a 1.8 average - and yet they all rose to their positions.
Some people excel at sitting still and doing assignments. Some don't.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 5, 2011 4:05 PM
"The New Orleans Math & Science High School (Sci High), which opened after Hurricane Katrina, should be a national model; it's a public school with open enrollment and a very challenging curriculum. Only 20% of Sci High students have a parent with any college experience -- but 70% of the current graduating class is going to college. And the dropout rate is less than one percent... at a public inner-city school. The dropout rate is probably higher at most private prep schools."
Alas, the statistic you have posted here are just meaningless numbers. Many colleges are open enrollment these days and getting in to a "college" is easier than a selective kindergarten.
Show me how the students in this high school are outperforming the national average on a standardize test like the ACT or the SAT and then I will be impressed.
I don't really care if the average at this school is slightly above the state average for a state such as Louisiana with a really lousy educational record.
Also, who cares who stays and who goes?
Sitting in a classroom is no indicator that any real learning is taking place.
I can sit on the stage with the New York Philharmonic for the rest of my life and still not be a concert violinist. :-)
Should a kid who drops out as a sophmore (but fully literate and able to pass the GED) be counted in the same group as the kid with an IQ of 70 who drops out to be a low level drug dealer?
I don't care whether or not they are managing to keep their drop out rates low. Any school can reduce their dropout rate. Just offer lots of candy classes and don't give out any flunking grades.
Don't show me the gold stars. Show me a statistic that can't be easily manipulated and actually shows how that schools students are doing academically compared to (not only the current crop of US students) but those 30 and 50 years ago.
These are the tests that I consider to still be semi legitimate. ACT, SAT, LSAT, GMAT, GRE. The AP subject tests are also good measurements of academic achievement.
If the students at the high school are not taking and passing a lot of AP (Advanced Placement) tests (not classes, the national standardized tests) than this high school is most likely all smoke and mirrors.
Isabel1130 at May 5, 2011 4:25 PM
"however, its architects failed to take on board that the more you pay for something, the more of it you are going to get." HeySkipper...
you're entirely right there.
And YET, what social engineering fad hasn't had that? Oh, wait, I should say social program, that's what they call them. But then what progressive will accept that? What Progressive will accept blame for that? Usually when you suggest that foodstamps or whatever has now made several generations impovrished, you are the one accused of being racist... often by someone who plays the race card for everything, but never sees the subtle racism inharent in the assumption that people aren't capable of finding a job or controlling their libido.
What I'm thinking about RT and Cabrini, is that at that moment what better things existed? What other flats on the southside were better? I don't see how it's going to hell right away wasn't the fault of the people who lived there. It isn't some outside force that causes a community to spiral into chaos. Warsaw in the late 30's didn't self consume... and they DID have an outside force trying to destroy them.
You say you don't see an answer, but I don't think that's true. I just think the answer is astonishingly hard, and will seem racist even if it's for their own good. The answer is paying your own way. Just like it has always been.
SwissArmyD at May 5, 2011 4:51 PM
Um, in other news, water is wet.
This has been a fact for a LONG time.
Daghain at May 5, 2011 7:38 PM
This is a major American city, not Calcutta
The overall literacy rate across India is 74%. I suspect Calcutta would go higher than that, being a major city (rural populations probably drag the average down). Not the best of examples perhaps!
Ltw at May 5, 2011 10:34 PM
Does being able to read well matter or write coherent emails matter for people who want to be entrepreneurs or self employed(cab drivers not accountants) or basketball stars or rap stars or construction workers or small business owners? Maybe the people in detroit don't need it in the first place because it is not relevant to their ambitions.
Poor reading and writing skills does not necessarily mean that they are dumb or incapable of doing anything productive or innovative in life. But it probably indicates that they are not in a mood to look at things patiently and try to figure out things themselves and would probably rely on someone to do it for them if at all they want to do something bigger in life thereby increasing their overheads - maybe they consider having people for each and everything as a status symbol. And for people at the top levels in power, I guess it does not matter how badly they communicate as long as they are able to get the message through no matter how badly written their emails are. They will just get 10 people to proofread it for them and spend some tax money on consultants who specialize in writing emails.
"The overall literacy rate in India is 74%" - but what was measured in detroit was "functional" literacy. Maybe the overall "functional" literacy in India is less esp. among the rich and powerful and the political class of India because they are used to getting things done for themselves by others right from day one. I am sure it must be more among the lower and middle classes since they have to find out opportunities and nuances of the law for themselves to protect themselves from extortion by the police and politicians anyway.
Redrajesh at May 5, 2011 10:51 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2011/05/05/detroit_the_mot.html#comment-2107797">comment from RedrajeshDoes being able to read well matter or write coherent emails matter for people who want to be entrepreneurs or self employed(cab drivers not accountants) or basketball stars or rap stars or construction workers or small business owners?
What backward thinking. What if you can't read the directions on the bottle of medication to give to your sick child? Just for starters. What if you can't write a letter to say that your taxes were assessed wrong or you did pay the phone bill?
Amy Alkon at May 5, 2011 11:03 PM
Given the fact that America allows people to sue for anything and that people who do not follow directions on prescription medication because of inability to read will actually sue someone and get money, this is what is expected. This comes with the lack of personal responsibility and the ability to sue for almost anything which is a malaise plaguing America.
If people were just told that they are responsible for their own life and that they cannot blame someone for their stupidity and laziness, all this would just disappear and the fire would automatically be lit under their asses which would make them reach the required levels of proficiency at least to take care of themselves(which they do even in the most backward parts of the world).
Redrajesh at May 5, 2011 11:10 PM
Besides, people at this level probably don't pay taxes in the first place and live off welfare. And since they are anyway jobless and loafing around all day smoking their lives off, they probably don't mind hanging around the social security office all day for clarification when they see that they got less money this month compared to the last.
Those who do get rich enough to pay taxes will hire some firm to do their taxes for them and they won't notice some money being siphoned off by their accountant and other hired help in the plethora of their expenses on girls and parties and drugs.
A cab driver or a shop owner mostly needs just enough literacy to be able to count the money the customer gives him and return the correct change and by and large in my observation, these people are able to manage that(or maybe they fall in the 53% literate..maybe the 47% are the guys who stock the shelves in the shops). And since 53% are functionally literate, there is always someone around to tell these people the toll free number to the phone company.
Redrajesh at May 5, 2011 11:23 PM
"Blacks in the US average a standard deviation below the national average in IQ."
Look it's not that blacks are less intelligent, I think IQ is irrelevant when it comes to success. I think an average IQ and above average social intelligence (a people person) has more to do with success. And above all that good parenting.
I'm in my late 20's now and when I look back at my school years... I can honestly tell you it's a bad bad mixture of bad parenting and shitty teachers. My parents never asked me exactly what I did in school, who my friends where, I can't think of a time they took the time to interact with me. I think this is the case with alot of poor children.
And then it's the teachers too. My biology teacher informed us that she did not believe in human evolution whilst my English teacher lost all our essays for the year "because he was moving and forgot where he had put them." Many make it quite known that they just don't like you....
Ppen at May 5, 2011 11:24 PM
"Does being able to read well matter or write coherent emails matter for people who want to be entrepreneurs or self employed(cab drivers not accountants) or basketball stars or rap stars or construction workers or small business owners?"
You really said entrepreneurs? If you can't spell, you still want me to do business with your ignorant ass?
Your really said construction workers? Wow.
Who built the I-35 bridge? How about the nuke plant in your state?
And you're really arguing that stupid and ignorant is OK.
Go to the head of that line!
If you cannot read, you cut your learning rate drastically. So much for everything else you do!
Radwaste at May 6, 2011 8:01 AM
"Look it's not that blacks are less intelligent, I think IQ is irrelevant when it comes to success. "
I think it is relevant, although not in the way you meant. Here's the thing: IQ testing is an (admittedly imperfect) measure of brain development. We know that neurological and mental development in children depends, to a considerable extent, on intellectual stimulation. The low IQ scores are an indication that this stimulation isn't taking place -- these black children are having their mental development stunted by lack of proper parenting and schooling. That's a formula for disaster, and we see the disaster happening before us.
Cousin Dave at May 6, 2011 9:25 AM
Re George Bush was smart. Well, he had the hunting skills of Dick Cheney. Hunted bin Laden into Tora Bora, and then spent the rest of his Presidential career sniffing around borderlands Pakistan--while bin Laden was in his mansion with his young wife, the near the nation's capital.
Obama got bin Laden in a little over two years, despite a very cold trail. (The Bushies were testifying before Congress that bin Laden was in the hills, up until they left office).
So, how do you define intelligence?
BOTU at May 6, 2011 10:20 AM
Intelligence = -{BOTU position}.
Because, genius, the people doing the chasing didn't change with the election.
Yeech.
Radwaste at May 6, 2011 1:35 PM
but what was measured in detroit was "functional" literacy. Maybe the overall "functional" literacy in India is less
No, what was measured in Detroit was functional illiteracy - which is people who, though they might know a few words and alphabet, etc, cannot read or write sufficiently to do basic everyday tasks. We're not talking about "badly written emails" here, we're talking about inability to read traffic signs.
Literacy is the opposite - the ability to read and write up to some basic standard. We're not talking about writing Harvard papers here, just good enough to function. The two are roughly complements of each other, which would put the functional illiteracy rate across India at 26%.
And I second Radwaste - I'm an engineer, how could I possibly work with construction workers who couldn't read? We issue them reams of drawings, specifications, procedures, and so on. Do I stand there and read it all to them?
Ltw at May 6, 2011 3:58 PM
"We know that neurological and mental development in children depends, to a considerable extent, on intellectual stimulation"
Totally agree. I was trying to get to that. I don't think it's a race thing, which makes IQ controversial. Which is why people don't like to use it. It's a parenting and schooling thing. I think it's mostly a parenting thing but it's not something that would be addressed.
Ppen at May 7, 2011 2:03 AM
Ppen, read Stephen Pinker's The Blank Slate.
Hey Skipper at May 7, 2011 1:24 PM
@Radwaste - If you cannot read, you cut your learning rate drastically....maybe, but what if the relevant learning cannot be read, but has to come from experience?
"If you can't spell, you still want me to do business with your ignorant ass?" - well, if you don't do business with a guy who can't spell, someone else will and the loss may actually be yours. Have you heard of the story of the gardener at the church who went on to become a millionaire because the pastor threw him out of the job because he could not read or write? And how many big businessmen are present all across the world who cannot read or write? USA also has its share of big corporations founded by people who could not read or write.
@Radwaste and Ltw - Who built the I-35 bridge? How about the nuke plant in your state? - it was not construction workers that read the plans, it was the foremen who read it. And actually hung around the construction workers all day to make sure they did it according to plan. Having been a design engineer myself and been on site supervisions, I know how much the workers actually read. It is always the foremen who are reading the plans and who are entrusted with the responsibility of hanging around with the workers and actually reading it out to them.
Redrajesh at May 11, 2011 2:19 AM
Leave a comment