So let's fix the "mindsets" and not act like marriage is the problem.

Definitely the mindset that's the problem, not the institution of marriage itself. Because marriage has only the meaning you attribute to it.

I just posted something similar on the latest column: there is absolutely no reason to think problems will resolve themselves without your putting in some kind of effort. There are certainly people that get married and change their ways, but they make the active choice to do so. And they make it for themselves, not for their spouses. It's completely unreasonable to assume that a problem will be fixed if the only thing that changes is the acquisition of a marriage license.

There is no universal concept of marriage, people. It is exactly what you make it.

Number six, you have a column?

> There is no universal concept of marriage,
> people. It is exactly what you make it.

No. One of the best reasons to support marriage is that, properly approached, it makes couples consider the responsibilities their household has to the rest of society.

People don't want to do that. They want to think of themselves as daring mavericks in a world that doesn't care. It doesn't matter that they're blindingly reliant on others for essentials, for luxuries, and for all the wisdom in their lives, interpersonal and otherwise.

Nowadays, being married is very much about having a partner for pompous yet reedy assertions of heroic independence.

And you'll notice that for an enormous number of signatories, it's not working out.

Probably shoulda just said blindly insteada blindingly.

Feelin' sorry: Compensatory jokes, one and two.

"Casey, a 35 year-old travel correspondent and founder of GirlsGetawayGuide.net, described her ex-husband to me as 'immature and insecure.' She married him at age 24 and recalls 'I thought getting married would fix those problems.'"

"I thought getting married would fix him." There, fixed it for her.

I read this piece a few days ago and related to it. People who have a good sense of themselves and emotional maturity will probably not understand some of the stupid things I did when I was younger. I had zero self-esteem, confidence, sense of myself, etc. I married my ex because I was told I wasn't good enough my entire life. I was almost pretty, pretty if I'd just lose a little weight, I wished you would have been a boy, you're almost as smart as...., etc. You may not think that messes a person up but it does and I married the first man who was nice to me because even after he wasn't nice to me, I thought it was somehow my fault or that it was acceptable. Thankfully I'm in a different place emotionally now, but there was a time I couldn't even pick out party plates for my kids birthday without help. Sound pathetic? I think so too.

Kristen, I thought this was a universal condition! Aren't we all pretty stupid until we have some life experience to smarten us up?

I know for sure if I had waited much longer to get married (I was 21), I would have saved myself and my first husband some serious misery. Problem was, I didn't figure that out until I was in my 40's. Apparently, I'm a slow learner. But maybe we all need to forgive ourselves. Most people don't get married in their youth with the intention of trying to screw things up! Did you? I seriously doubt it.

Honestly, anyone who thinks early 20's is a good age to get married is either not thinking...or is in their early 20's. Now, whether to get married at all? Yeah, after 40 would be a good time. Maybe.

"I thought getting married would fix him." There, fixed it for her.

"A man isn't finished until he's married. Then he's done."

Caputa's piece only briefly mentions couples who got married because it was the "logical next step." As in, "Well, we've been together for 4 years, time to take it to the next level." Or, "I'm 25, which is when I always thought I'd get married. Time to get married!"

But I think that's a major reason why a lot of couples I know got hitched.

And "helpful" relatives saying things like, "Well, your cousin just got married. Now it's YOUR TURN," aren't helping.

There is an old line that goes:

Women get married hoping he will change and men get married hoping she won't.

gharkness said:

Honestly, anyone who thinks early 20's is a good age to get married is either not thinking...or is in their early 20's. Now, whether to get married at all? Yeah, after 40 would be a good time. Maybe.
________________________

You made good points, but unfortunately, the trouble with marrying after 30 is, you find yourself surrounded by divorced parents when you start dating seriously.

And, if you're female and want your own offspring, you don't want to take risks with fertility unless you have thousands of $$ to spare.

I'm sure that there's an element of truth to the stories she's citing, but I've also learned to be very wary of people's rationalizations of why they'd divorced, or broken up with someone, after the fact. These women are all casting themselves as victims. It was either because the men were losers (always a favorite), or that they didn't love themselves enough ( another favorite ). I'd find them a little more believable if they weren't so pat. And you'll notice that there's no recognition of the fact that they'd ruined someone else's life. It's still all about them.

I thought once we were settled into newlywed bliss, my ex-husband would be happier with his own life and able to hold a steady job and show me more affection.

Thank the Lord people never have children using this rationale!

(extreme sarcasm off)

OMG! This lacks any credibility with regard to relationships, especially once she used the phrase "soul mate". Gag. I hope she gets happy being alone bc that is what she is going to get. Women who are looking for some man to compete them will be severly disappoint in life.

Look folks, it is like this. The best marriages are between two people who respect each other and who are willing to put the other person first. This generally results in the ability to compromise when needed. Also, they must agree at the outset that this is it and the search for that perfect "other" is over now. People like this want impossible things from relationships. They want that just falling in love moment to never pass, but it does bc everything changes. If they just gave it a chance, they would see how much better your relationship becomes as it ages...if you are willing to trull foresake all others! There is no reason why a comfortable, stable relationship means your not in love. Ack. Women like this drive me crazy and this is why men feel like they are being used.

Oops... Should truly...typing on the iPad is not always easy..

>>"Honestly, anyone who thinks early 20's is a good age to get married is either not thinking...or is in their early 20's. Now, whether to get married at all? Yeah, after 40 would be a good time. Maybe."

I disagree. But then again, I got married at 23. We've been married six years and just had our first child. I had a very strong sense of myself when I was younger... and I knew my husband, his strengths and weaknesses, and didn't feel the need to "fix" him. I knew that his little immaturities (like his constant need to collect action figures that he promptly sells a year later) would get grown out of and because we weren't going to have kids for at least five years, it wasn't an issue. All in all, it's worked out well for the past six years. We're still tight - even through the stress of new baby/postpartum mommy-land.

I'll give a big nod to case's idea above - these ladies are still casting themselves as victims. And I know a LOT of people who followed sofar's logic of "We've been dating 5 years - we're getting married even though we fight constantly, have no future planned out, and our common interests are dissipating like smoke! But marriage is the next step, right?" My best friend is terrible about falling into this mindset, especially since her biological clock has started ticking.

> Women get married hoping he will change and men
> get married hoping she won't.

Some women joke about that.

> the trouble with marrying after 30 is, you find
> yourself surrounded by divorced parents when you
> start dating seriously.

I love this passage from Crittenden:

Men, particularly successful men, will be attractive and virile into their fifties. They can start families whenever they feel like it. So long as a woman was willing to play a man's game at dating -- playing the field, holding men to no expectations of permanent commitment -- men would be around; they would even live with her! But the moment she began exuding that desire for something more permanent, they'd vanish. I suspect that few things are more off-putting to a man eating dinner than to notice that the woman across the table is looking at him more hungrily than at the food on her plate -- and she is not hungry for his body but for his whole life.

You think it's a slam toward masculinity, right up until the end. That's my favorite kind of feminism... The kind that acknowledges the dark side of feminine nature.

"You think it's a slam toward masculinity, right up until the end. That's my favorite kind of feminism... The kind that acknowledges the dark side of feminine nature."

One of the reasons I enjoy House Hunters so much on HGTV. Most of the women are insecure narcissists, and the men are, for the most part, pussy whipped.

With the gay couples it is usually one of each. :-)

I had a lot of friends from college get married in their 20s. It's hardly a random sample though. It was a Christian college and very conservative, so there's already a lot of compatability requirements right there. There was very little dating for fun in that environment. You just didn't date until you were ready to find a spouse. The whole thing was approached in an old-fashioned, but pretty well thought-out approach. All of these friends are still married and most have at least two kids.

On the other hand you have my cousin who is in her mid-30s. She had a kid at 25 because she wanted unconditional love. She has an antagonistic relationship with her child's father. And her first marriage this past summer (to an brain damaged, alcoholic meth addict with rage issues) was shorter than Kim Kardashian's. Didn't even last long enough for him to move in with her and her kid - thank God.

Age really isn't a determinant. Maturity is.

"I thought getting married would fix him."

The hardest part of my marriage counseling was when the Pastor asked - if your soon-to-be husband did not change - at all - are you ready to accept him "as is". We had discussed a lot about our lives and our futures, wants and desires and we were on the same path. After basically, the rest of the sessions (and then some), I finally decided that I could live with him exactly "as is". It has bitten me in the ass a couple of times, but overall, we work through it, and honestly, my expectations have had to change.

We've been together 9 years, married for almost 5. And we're about to have our second child.

@NikkiG: "The hardest part of my marriage counseling was when the Pastor asked - if your soon-to-be husband did not change - at all - are you ready to accept him 'as is'"

A few years ago, my eldest daughter's boyfriend asked to spend a little time with me, just two guys. On the way back from the computer store where we'd spent our "date," he told me the real reason he'd asked to see me. I knew what it was, of course, but was enjoying the awkwardness. I happily blessed the idea of him marrying my daughter; I like the boy, he works hard, and he treats his Mom well. But I told him to consider carefully: What is the thing you hate about her the most, and can you picture living with it the rest of your life?

I don't know if it really sank in. Young folks can be kind of hard-headed. But they've just celebrated their first anniversary, and I haven't had any tearful phone calls from my daughter yet.

I'm reminded of this discussion. Women entering marriages will never be asked, out loud, whether they admire their fiancés... The question is impermissibly humbling.

That's how cold romance has become in our time.

Future generations will notice this. And it's not just feminism that's made people so smug and proud and isolated.

I don't think the problem is getting married young; I think it has more to do with the whole bratty entitlement mindset, a princess mentality, or just a plain ol' inability to be realistic about life.

I got married when I was 23, and that enabled husband and I to have 5 child-free years together- and I still had our daughter before I turned 30. I'm glad I got married when I did. I enjoy a good Disney fairy tale just as much as the next girl, but I was never under the impression that real life was that way. Many of the people I know who've had very short-term marriages are... ahem... Dramatic. They'd call themselves "passionate," though. There are also a few who made the decision to marry someone they didn't really know, and that worked out badly.

If a woman wants to actually have a family but wait until she's almost 40 to start looking for a husband... Well, good luck with that.

Elle said:
I had a lot of friends from college get married in their 20s. It's hardly a random sample though. It was a Christian college and very conservative, so there's already a lot of compatability requirements right there. There was very little dating for fun in that environment. You just didn't date until you were ready to find a spouse. The whole thing was approached in an old-fashioned, but pretty well thought-out approach.
_________________________

I believe that's known as "courting," not "dating." Granted, one advantage of that is that there are no serious misunderstandings, since BOTH sides are supposed to be eager and financially ready to marry before they start looking, and any break-ups that happen are relatively emotionally civilized, since sex was not involved. (Of course, they are not supposed to meet anywhere truly private before the wedding.)

There was a cover story, "A Mighty Fortress," in the NY Times Magazine (Feb. 27, 2000) about an evangelist family in PA - the Scheibners - that believed strongly in that, because among other things, as the father said: "If a girl dates 100 guys before she gets married, she's given her heart away 100 times but every time she gets it back, it's a little more scarred." The two oldest kids (there were 7) were preteens. One letter to the editor expressed a strong interest in what the kids would be like 10 years later - but I've never found any updates on them, other than that they moved to Maine, as the story had said they would.

And here's a letter to John Rosemond that seems relevant. I have to wonder - on the assumption that the father allows the girl to meet with friends of both sexes so long as it's always in groups and not in someone's house with no adults present, why doesn't the boy just leave well enough alone and wait until the girl DOES move out for good? Otherwise, it's likely the father will never like him, even if the girl doesn't sneak around to see him.

Also, the mother could indulge in a little white lie and tell the boy that the father doesn't believe in dating, only courting. (I'm assuming that's not quite the case.)

October 26, 2011
John Rosemond

Q: My husband won’t allow our 17-year-old daughter to date. She is an excellent student, very involved in activities at school and church, and has never given us any major problems. A rather brave boy has tried repeatedly to ask my husband to date our daughter, but my husband won’t even give him the time of day, despite the fact that he’s a good kid from a good home. We know his family, and it’s become embarrassing for all of us, except my husband, that is. He refuses to even discuss it. The whole situation is making me feel like I’m watching Romeo and Juliet. Everyone who is familiar with the situation, including my relatives, tells me I should ignore my husband and allow my daughter and this boy to date. Please help me. What should I do?

A: Under no circumstances would I advise you to ignore your husband and go against his wishes, no matter how irrational his position concerning your daughter and boys. And while I’m reasonably sure he is not generally an irrational person, the fact that he won’t engage in discussion and bend even a tad concerning his stand on your daughter and dating means he can’t defend it — therefore, it’s irrational (a decision or position that is driven or determined primarily by emotion and which is not supported by objective evidence). Nonetheless, your marriage is more important than this issue. Keep that in mind.

Being a father, I would bet that your husband is genuinely concerned for your daughter’s well-being. Fathers can and should be protective
of their daughters, but your husband’s protective instincts have gotten the best of him here. His anxieties — I’m making an educated assumption here — have overwhelmed his good sense and he is in danger of becoming his own worst enemy.

As for Romeo and Juliet, one can only hope that your husband’s rigidity does not result in these two young people doing something “Shakespearean.” This has the potential of resulting in your daughter (a) engaging in deception in order to be with this boy, (b) leaving home when she’s 18, (c) entering into an early marriage that has a large chance of failing, (d) harboring long-standing feelings of resentment toward her father, or (e) all of the above.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard about a female child who was overprotected at home and became “wild” once she went off to
college and got out from under her parents’ repressive thumbs.

If your husband allowed these two young people to date, they would have no reason to be deceptive or to turn this into a soap opera. He’s actually giving them a reason to do what he probably fears most, and the consequences could be very unwelcome to both families.

Having said all that, it doesn’t sound like your husband is going to come to his senses any time soon, no matter what anyone says to him, and it definitely sounds as if everyone involved has said everything that can be said. I certainly don’t know any magical words that would cause him to revisit his thinking on this matter, much less change his mind. This is one of those times, therefore, when I must regretfully tell someone that “I think you’re just going to have to muddle through this.”

but I've never found any updates on them, other than that they moved to Maine, as the story had said they would.
________________________

Well, I spoke too soon.....I guess the last time I checked was more than a year ago, when this information became available, if not earlier.

It seems Steve (a pilot and pastor) and Megan Scheibner had at least two more kids - twin sons - in the early spring of 2001....and, when the boys were five months old, Steve was scheduled to fly Flight 11....but he got bumped.

Megan says: "It is powerful to hear him speak knowing what it is like to have two people die in his place. One Jesus Christ and the other being the Pilot who bumped him and flew in his place on 9/11."

And their oldest son, Peter (now 21?) made a short film about it ("In My Seat") two months ago that is now on Youtube. The article I found says Peter is now a cinema major at Bob Jones University (oh, great. Personally, I think any "school" with a founder such as theirs should never be forgiven by anyone who's choosing a college).

Number six, you have a column?

I meant Amy's latest column, with the woman talking about how she and her husband don't have sex anymore but aren't doing anything to correct it. Similar concept: the problems these people wanted marriage to fix don't go away with nobody putting any effort in. It's one thing to have to figure out how to deal with problems that come up after you're married, but quite another to think marriage itself will fix what's already there. There are numerous advice columns that boil down to "I thought things would change once we got married." Why? Because of the new legal rights you have? Because that's the thing that will change without you actively changing it. And I have a sneaking suspicion that a large number of this group will eventually enter into the "I thought things would change once we had kids" group.

Women entering marriages will never be asked, out loud, whether they admire their fiancés... The question is impermissibly humbling.

I find that both disturbing and sadly true. I especially like your use of the word "impermissibly." The überfeminists (who are becoming less über and more mainstream every day) don't allow such things to be asked of women. And it's an unforgivable transgression if they are. Personally, I can't imagine pledging to spend the rest of my life with someone I don't admire, but that's because I don't think I'm doing some guy a huge favor by allowing him to be with me.

Partly because of that, but mostly because you're aware enough of what's going on in the lives of the adults in your life that you don't need to patrol their emotional borders like a heavily-armed second-grader who's hopped up on Halloween candy.

I'm gonna guess that the man you married was, even then, not "immature and insecure."

And that even if he had been, and even if you'd divorced as Casey did, you'd not at age 35 describe his immaturity and insecurity as the source of the failure.

Marriages don't work that way, even bad ones. These people find each other.

"I knew that his little immaturities (like his constant need to collect action figures that he promptly sells a year later) would get grown out of"

This is why men should never marry. Apparently even a favorite hobby is something that must be crushed by the wife.

Not necessarily, Magog. My husband was and is a serious comic book collector. He also has a complete collection of videos he made of The Muppet Show. He also was a mill-worker for thirty years and a very responsible man when it came to paying the bills and keeping a budget.

I had not read a comic for years. Now there are several of them that I read,(they've changed a lot!) and after I got done smirking about The Muppet Show videos I really got into them, too.

We have been together for twenty-two years. I am turning 56 this month and he turns 58 exactly one week later. We have a lot of fun. Because we LIKE each other, along with all the I Love You moosh-moosy stuff.

Pardon me, I meant mooshy-mooshy stuff, not moosh-moosy. That's something else altogether.

Hmm. Schadenfreude.