How about before the government steps in and decides we need to pay for people's further education, they decide to do something about the people out here that can't figure out basic math. You know, the people that signed mortgages for houses they could not afford, but weren't smart enough to figure it out.

Basic accounting skills should be completely mastered by eighth grade (at the very latest).

Don't you know that to get a job cleaning fish you have to at least have an associates degree in fish cleaning. A batchelor's with five years experience is preferred.

I've been against the idea of having 4 year colleges for quite a while. The first two years are spent on mandatory courses that are designed to make good citizens. Those classes should be taught in high school. High Schools with longer hours, better teachers and innovative teaching methods (I'm a fan of Khan Academy) will produce 18 year old adults who know how to, at the very least, wipe their own as*es and not need 4 year colleges which are a waste of money and time.

We need to get back to teaching trades in a votech type atmosphere because many people don't need to or should not or can't go to college. These programs should eliminate the bs classes that colleges make you take just to suck more money out of you. The other thing that pisses me off is when I hear these OWS protesters complain about their lack of a job and their $100,000.00 debt load and then find out that they have a BS degree in modern interpretive dance in women's studies with a minor in 17th century French gay literature. You then wonder why you don't have a job? Did you actually research employment opportunities for said degree or are we now spending $100K of taxpayer money for your hobby that you refuse to pay back? The next question is why do these BS (bullshit) degrees even exist and where does one find a job with said degree except waiting tables, working at Starbucks or in academia teaching others this same crap.

I joined the Navy right out of high school. Went to Nuclear Power School, as well as a bunch of other tech schools over my 14 year career. Got out, went to work as a maintenance tech for a fibrerglass factory. Went to even more schools while there (on their dime, no less) to learn PLC programming. Worked for them for 12 years, then went to work for a local integrator, and learned to do HMI programming as well. I now work as a technician for a major engineering company, doing the programming for water and wastewater plants all over the country. I love my job, and make a good income doing it. Tell me why I needed to go to college?

Ditto, Jim. Greetings from the EPCP of USS Batfish and USS James Madison, both now, sadly, decommissioned.

"Add the $36 billion in federal Pell Grants and that giant sucking sound is the money going from your wallet to some kid's six-year bong party known as "the college experience.""

I like Crid's description better: "...endless festival of cleavage...".

But the last thing I'd want as a sailor is a bunch of kids who think they're entitled to something in there with me. The sea says otherwise. It's been killing the foolish forever.

I went to a tech college for a few semesters. After two semesters the government came down and said that anyone taking government loans now had to take math courses, preferably algebra.

I'm going to the private college for computer network administration.

Yes, I know algebra is used in our daily life. I took that back in high school. So now I'm going to have to waste money and time taking math courses I took in high school and aren't really relevant to my degree.

I looked at college many times over the years -- the requirement to take courses not relevant your main goal -- an income -- or having degrees that don't translate to real jobs outside of academia need to be looked at very questionably.

I have done pretty well off of OJT, some cert courses and internet searches.

College subsidies are designed to subsidize Universities, not students. The students are simply the vehicle and ultimately the financiers. If legislators were concerned about their educations, they'd incorporate requirements to control costs and reward desirable outcomes, like earning a degree. But as it is now, the financing is effectively unconditional. This has been a major factor driving tuition costs, superfluous academic credit requirements, impediments to transferring credits, and the explosion in administrative positions. Like the housing market, we really are in the midst of an education bubble.

There SO many jobs that don't require degrees. And don't get me started on advanced degrees--why do librarians need an MLS?

I see the problem as thinking everyone should go to college. Nature does not give everyone the smarts to go to college so college has to lower the standards.

When I went to college in the 60's, a lot were flunked out the first year, on purpose. They didn't fit.

Also, tracking in high school is illegal. Necessary, but illegal.

You know, the people that signed mortgages for houses they could not afford, but weren't smart enough to figure it out.

Math is hard and stuff. Especially those adjustable rate mortages.

(says the fellow who suffered thru 3 courses of calculus, and two of differential equations)

@Joan: "If legislators were concerned about their educations, they'd incorporate requirements to control costs and reward desirable outcomes, like earning a degree."

Exactly. And if people want the government to be more supportive of education, to the point of paying for college, it only makes sense for people to accept some realities:

A. First, "putting a college education in reach of every American" is not the same as saying everyone is qualified to go. Not everyone is cut out for college, and we need to quit acting like everyone is. If you insist that everyone is qualified for college, then everyone must be able to pass. But we call that high school, which is bad enough as it is.

B. Second, if we can get through the agony of accepting point A., and still insist on government support for a college education, than it follows that the government gets a say in who gets into college, and what they should study while there. Think about it -- if the taxpayer foots the bill, shouldn't the taxpayers (and future employers, for that matter) have some kind of input where the money goes? Of course, that could mean unegalitarian things like standardized tests and tracking students through their earlier school years, which, Dave B above reminds us, is illegal.

The return on investment hasn't been there for most degrees in my lifetime, and I graduated from H.S. in 89.

I first enrolled in a Culinary Arts program, as it was the most practical of my interests, and found out very quickly that I hated food service.

Choices two and three were to major in English or Art, but since I have no desire to teach (come from a family of teachers....yeah,no,not doing it) I saw no reason to go into debt and spend 4-12 years of my life getting useless degrees.

Of all my high school friends who went to college, only one is working in the field she went to school for. She's a research scientist. The ones who went to vo/tech are largely still working in their chosen fields.

here we have the macro and the micro colliding. Getting everyone a college ed. is not the best thing on the large scale, just ask the South Koreans... but on the small scale, say if your kid is about 17? Unless the are not capable of going to college at all, right now they should go as a default. Many, MANY corporations out there won't even look at your resume without at least a basic degree... and the spam filter hates the rest of my comment sooooo.

Businesses are looking for a credential, and there are so many people looking for scarce jobs that you are at disadvantage without one. As an individual, on the micro scale.

I assume what you really meant to say was "Not everyone should go to college"! :-)

But I agree. I've been following Instapundit's coverage of the "higher education bubble" with interest.

They had a story about this on NPR in the spring of 2008. Here's a response I wrote:

Aside from how much money you want to make and class snobbery, I think one problem is, we Americans focus so much on the bottom line that
it's become OK to forget everything we learn each year so long as we get A's. I.e., we should be telling kids "no, you may not keep video games/TV/computers in your bedroom, because learning to love reading for hours at a time is more important than anything else. Even if you don't plan to go to college."

Example: In a Feb. 2005 TIME cover article, it said:

Kohn knows a college counselor hired by parents to help "package" their child, who had perfect board scores and a wonderful grade-point average. When it was time to work on the college essay, the counselor said, "Let's start with a book you read outside of school that really made a difference in your life." There was a moment of silence. Then the child responded, "Why would I read a book if I didn't have to?"

(Not to mention that zero love of reading often means zero interest in serious news stories - or the general world. That's hardly good for
this country's future.)

(End)

Or, you might simply say: "It's OK if you really don't want to go to college. What's not OK is using that as an excuse not to read - especially newspapers. Or as an excuse not to plan to move out after graduation."

Radwaste, I was on the USS Pollack, Guardfish and the decomm crew of the George Washington. All my ships are razor blades as well. Stood more Electrical Operator watches than I can remember. I was among the last IC-men that were Nukes. Converted to EM after I made ICC.

For three years I taught industrial technology in a career center. Most of my students were shuttled there by guidance councilors because they could not pass anything else. However, some of them were actually interested in technical careers in industry. They made out like bandits. One guy got a job in a High-performance auto machine shop because he remembered that I had taught him there are 24.5 MM in an inch. BTW, welders make more money than poets.

It's not that *more* people need to go to college, it's that the *right* people need to go to college. For every upper-middle class suburban white kid $50k in debt for a Gender Studies degree, there's someone in rural Appalachia or the inner-city ghetto who would benefit and flourish with a college education, but doesn't have the resources or social capital to go. I'm studying abroad in Europe right now, and it's interesting to compare the European model of education. In Finland for example, public colleges are free but admittance is entirely merit-based and they are rigorous to get into. Private colleges exist but are not highly acclaimed--it's like saying you couldn't get into a real college so you had to buy your degree. I'm not saying that this could or should work in the US, but it's interesting to consider.

Also, there are other reasons to attend college besides rote vocational training for a specific career. College should teach you to think critically, open your mind to new ideas, interact with different types of people, live independently, and figure out what you want to do in life. Of course, you can achieve the same by perhaps joining the military, traveling for a year, or pursuing a career or entrepreneurial opportunity; but the American 17 year old who can do this is rare. In reality, the average teenager who doesn't go to college is going to be working a minimum wage job while increasingly wearing out their welcome living in their parent's house. That's especially true in socioeconomic areas where higher education is the default--if you don't go it's for a reason, and probably not a good one.

Really I think the maxim should be "don't take on massive amounts of student loans unless the payoff is guaranteed to be worth it" ie take on debt for an finance degree from Harvard, not for an English degree from an overpriced third-tier liberal arts school. If you graduate college with, say, an art history degree you're still better off than you'd have been four years ago--you're smarter, a better thinker, and a more interesting and independent person--UNLESS you went $70k into debt to do so. In that case, it's just not worth it. Unfortunately students are making these decisions at age 17 and 18 when they're not really able to think through the financial impact, and as a result they have an incredible amount of debt hanging over their heads.

I find one ad the Navy ran to be essentially correct: the "life accelerator". Unfortunately, lots of people shy away from being told what to do, even those who could use it.

And it's pretty clear - you have a lot better chance being hired as a veteran with a real skill than as an expert in theories about how things should work, straight from a classroom.

I bet there are no vets in the Occupy crowd.

And, Jim, small world. I think I was the last IC nuke, leaving NFAS staff and Uncle Sam's Undersea Tubular Transportation and Instant Parking Lot Installation Company in 1990. Wish I could ride a Virginia-class SSN.

There's been a lot published lately about how few college entrants are choosing STEM degrees. There's a few themes that keep reoccurring:

* Few students from public high schools are prepared for college STEM programs. The last stat I saw had that about two-thirds of all college freshmen have to take at least one no-credit remedial course, which costs money and sets back one's graduation date.

* The incentive systems are all screwed up. STEM majors get lower grades because the courses they take are tougher. So they are less likely to graduate with honors, and their GPAs won't look as good to employers. Not to mention that the stem guys are considered "geeks" and are unpopular around campus.

* Colleges are all hot these days for foreign students, and the higher tuitions they pay. The pattern for foreign students getting STEM degrees has changed. It used to be that after graduating, they'd remain in the U.S. and eventually become citizens. Now, though, they are more likely to take their education back to their home country, and go into tech businesses there that compete with the U.S.

I did a BS in math, for no better reason than that was what I was good at. Fast forward 35 years, and I finally got to use some of it at work. But that "rigor" thing came in handy along the way.

The real problem is k-12 is not doing their job. right now it is as someone said, business don't like to hire individuals without a degree for non-blue collar work.

It seems to me what is need is divisions which they sorta had where I used to live. One tier is Community College/technical school. These teach basic skills such as welding. These schools are cheap. When I went to one to try to learn a foreign language it was about $150/class per quarter plus books.

Then there needs to be a level that is more like today's universities though they don't have the research portion nor the top notch faculty. As such, they can be much more affordable.

There is then an elite set that is not necessarily affordable. Have elite faculty etc. And probably don't teach what is now the first couple of years. This is where the research is primarily done. There is limited government aid - and it is either from something like specific research or results base.

My experience working for a company that loved to hire ex-military people is that it only trains them to follow directions. They all need a lot of direction. The tech was different that they had to be trained from point zero.

I agree with Cousin Dave's post above. Heard an interesting rebroadcast talking about that last night. It talked about a guy who got a 800 in the math section of the SAT who dropped out of the engineering program because he was getting low grades compared to his dorm mates and discriminated against because of his major.

I completed two bachelor degrees, in science (some sort of vague computer science/physics major, worth nothing without an honours year) and engineering. Never went to my graduation. Don't have the certificates to prove it.

14 years later, no one has ever asked to see them.

The certificates have always been mailed to me. Even if you walked in the ceremony it was still mailed to you (they were worried that of getting off if someone didn't show up or something).

I have had potential employers verify my degree(s) with the school directly...no one has asked to see the paper certificate. I know for sure one did because the called about it...the University was slow in processing things so I had to get the program adviser to send them letter.

Different industry perhaps, The Former Banker. At least where I am, too many people still came up "through the trade" so creeping credentialism hasn't had time to take hold in my field. They just don't care. I presented my transcript for my first job, that was it.

If I wanted to apply for certified professional engineer status (ability to sign off as design authority and so on) that would be different. Fortunately, in my line of work that's not really necessary.

I'm not at all surprised Amy, you can either write or not. Who gives a damn about degrees?

There is a dirty little secret about kids and education. Half of all kids are below average. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone.

But... Uh, nevermind.

"We should be doing everything we can to put a college education within reach for every American," Not the same as every kid should go to college. As long as it's done with loans that can't be defaulted which it is I don't see the issue. It's not a gift and it's not a free ride it's a loan. Federal grants are bs but that's different.

"And if our students were getting high-tech degrees, they might have a point." That's actually what's being pushed. There are multiple public and private programs that are encouraging kids to go into Science and Engineering. Obama was on mythbusters to push exactly that too. This will have limited effect as nerd/geeks are derided in society until we succeed then they hate us for being greedy.

"If you graduate college with, say, an art history degree you're still better off than you'd have been four years ago--you're smarter, a better thinker, and a more interesting and independent person" Then you and I know very different art history majors. Being able to pontificate on the difference between cubism and orphism maybe a cute party trick but otherwise useless.

Many, MANY corporations out there won't even look at your resume without at least a basic degree..

Too bad they just can't give an IQ test to applicants.

Yeah right, never mind.

I liked collage. It helped me put all the little pictures together in one place.

Radwaste, I have read several stories about vets in the Occupy movement - including the former Marine whose skull was fractured by police projectiles in Oakland a few weeks ago. (Vets who participate could just be getting disproportionate coverage, I have no idea if it is a significant number.)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/14/BAGA1LURES.DTL