Press One For English
This is the Coke commercial from the Super Bowl. My relatives came here around 1900 from various European peasantvilles, speaking Russian and German, and they all learned to speak English. They saw it as an essential part of being American.
Allen West quoted Teddy Roosevelt:
Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or leave the country."In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American.
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile.
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.
You know, I used to agree with Allen West--I saw no reason people shouldn't be required to learn English if they wanted to stay in America.
Then I moved to Switzerland. When I came here, I could count to three and say hello, thank you and please. I have every advantage in the world. My husband's company even paid the first $10,000 worth of language lessons. (Incidentally, that's not that much.)
I work part time, and my kids are in school, which means I can carve out some time to devote to language study.
I have now been here almost 5 years and I'm officially conversant in German. (I even have the certificate to prove it.)
But what about people who are not like me? What about people who are working 50 or 60 hours a week, making low wages, with no money for language classes? Just how do we expect them to accomplish this. Some people have a natural talent for language acquisition and can just pick it up. Others have to really struggle and work (I'm in that category). When you have 3 kids and a low wage job, just when are you going to find time to take an English class even if you could afford it?
It's important to learn English, no doubt. But, it is not quite so easy as many people think.
Suzanne Lucas at February 3, 2014 2:15 AM
It's important to learn English, no doubt. But, it is not quite so easy as many people think.
Posted by: Suzanne Lucas at February 3, 2014 2:15 AM
Speaking English is far more important for cultural cohesiveness, than for communication. It is a way to integrate foreign cultures into American life.
If you don't learn the language of the country you are living in, you are usually stuck in a little ex pat ghetto, spending all your time with your friends and relatives, and never integrating into the real population. ( and you are stuck in poverty doing menial labor when you don't understand the language)
This is a very bad thing, because when an ethic group with their own language gets large enough, they start demanding their own country, and that their own cultural rules and legal system control in areas where they are in the majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization
Isab at February 3, 2014 6:57 AM
Well, one of the problems is not that some folks don't learn the language of their new nation; instead they demand their new nation provide them with government goods and services in their own native language. They demand that private companies (such as Coca-Cola) provide them packaging and service in their native language.
If one takes the time and effort to migrate to another country it should be up to that individual to learn the ways (including language) of that new land. To not do so is disrespectful.
Sadly, too many immigrants do not believe this - many do - but, too many do not.
On a side note, it always cracks me up whenever the mayor of New York has a press conference about bad weather, he ends it by reading a message in Spanish. It is very clear he doesn't speak the language at all and is simply reading the phonetic transcript. He sounds like a complete idiot pandering for votes.
Charles at February 3, 2014 7:07 AM
I really don't think the commercial (which kind of liked I liked until I remembered it was for Coke) is encouraging immigrants not to learn English. There's no indication that those singers can't also speak English fluently.
Taking a patriotic song and translating it into various languages isn't saying that nobody should learn it in English. In fact, you can't translate a song unless you know it inside out in its original language -- and have deep knowledge of that language. It's super difficult to do the original justice while preserving the cadence, phrasing, emotions and subtleties of the original. So, if you think about it, this commercial is a very reverent tribute to "America the beautiful."
tl;dr The commercial is just promoting the fact that so many Americans are multilingual. Well... actually it's promoting a sugary beverage.
sofar at February 3, 2014 7:19 AM
tl;dr The commercial is just promoting the fact that so many Americans are multilingual. Well... actually it's promoting a sugary beverage.
Posted by: sofar at February 3, 2014 7:19 AM
So, it is basically "pandering".
Isab at February 3, 2014 7:39 AM
It's important to learn English, no doubt. But, it is not quite so easy as many people think.
I think a lot of people set up a straw-man villain of the "person who moves the the States and REFUSES to speak English." I have met only one such person (one of my relatives from Italy who opened a business and only conducted business in Italian), but I think people like that are pretty rare.
What I have met are a lot of people who are making a good-faith attempt at learning it (and even started lessons before moving here) and are still not good yet -- because you don't get good unless you hear and speak it every day. I started learning German when I was a child (from relatives) and took it in school for years before I made my first long-term visit there. And, on my second day, I annoyed the heck out of a bank teller because arranging to open a bank account wasn't in my German vocabulary yet. She probably thought I was rude for not being able to conduct basic business in her country's language, but she called over someone who spoke English. I was embarrassed and frustrated and, since then, have given people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to speaking English.
sofar at February 3, 2014 7:51 AM
America is not Europe. Our culture is not based on where we were born, religion we worship at, or what language we speak. Our culture is based on a subscription of ideals - individualism, liberty, democracy, constitutionalism, and freedom. And that's what this commercial looks like to me, despite the different languages, religions, and lifestyles the singers are joining together in celebrating their love for the ideals of their country.
One of our strengths, one of the things people who live elsewhere in the world admire about America, is that immigrants are quickly welcomed into the fold and considered "real Americans," even if they hold onto elements from their previous culture. Would we be as vibrant without Chinatown, Little Italy, and the Pennsylvania Dutch?
For as much as there is about this country that I think is wrong, that enrages me, for as much as unabashed patriotism is passé, this stupid schmaltzy commercial for caffeinated sugar water pretty well encapsulates what I love about America. And what I love enough that I'd rather live here than anywhere else.
Elle at February 3, 2014 7:57 AM
So, it is basically "pandering".
Yeah. It's a commercial. This one is pandering to patriots and recent transplants alike by suggesting that drinking Coke is American. Which is funny because everyone knows the best Coca Cola is the "Mexican" Coke variety.
sofar at February 3, 2014 8:02 AM
tl;dr The commercial is just promoting the fact that so many Americans are multilingual. Well... actually it's promoting a sugary beverage.
Yeah, it is possible to know more than one language. Americans are just lucky that the lingua franca of so much of the world is ours.
Astra at February 3, 2014 8:23 AM
Yeah, it is possible to know more than one language. Americans are just lucky that the lingua franca of so much of the world is ours.
Posted by: Astra at February 3, 2014 8:23 AM
Luck had nothing to do with it.
And it didn't happen by accident. . It is a result of our fighting and winning the Second World War, and our wealth and free trade with other countries.
We spread our culture, our values, our science, and engineering around the world, and English came along for the ride.
Isab at February 3, 2014 8:37 AM
"What about people who are working 50 or 60 hours a week, making low wages, with no money for language classes?"
That's a very good question.
Another good question - We don't lack for citizens desperately in need of work, so why are the borders open and the country full of uneducated illegals?
Why in the world should this country not have standards for immigration?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 3, 2014 8:39 AM
Exactly.
The problem that unregulated immigration presents us is not that a bunch of foreigners might come into the country. It's that they will remain foreigners long after they arrive here.
If we want to remain a united country and a united people, we should never allow immigration to get beyond our ability to assimilate the newcomers.
Immigration is good for us as a country. Masses of unassimilated foreigners living in our midst and demanding we conform to their culture is not.
Conan the Grammarian at February 3, 2014 8:46 AM
"It's important to learn English, no doubt. But, it is not quite so easy as many people think." SuzanneL
and yet? People have been doing THIS EXACT THING since the country was founded.
Call it on the job training, if you like. Mamalady works in the immigrant end of the Phoenix School district, and sees all the time... if they need something from you, parents will try whatever English they can make happen... if you need something from them? no comprende.
But. The kids learn English in school, and so will there kids, and so on, and so on. Integration is hard, but it usually isn't the first gen, that makes it happen, it is their offspring.
Fluency in language is different than being born into it, but time heals this. The thing is, YOU MUST WANT TO DO IT.
Viewing yourself as a temp worker, is very different than viewing yourself as an American. Ask the Turks in Germany how that all works.
SwissArmyD at February 3, 2014 9:57 AM
This is a problem that isn't really a problem. Cultural integration is the sort of thing that happens over generations, but it does happen.
My own family is a good example of that. My great grandparents came here and didn't speak a lick of English. My grandmother was born in Italy and came here as a teenager. She spoke mostly Italian with enough English to get by. My mother spoke mostly English with enough Italian to speak to her family. I can say, "Fuck you, whore" in Italian, and that's about it.
People are getting themselves in knots over nothing.
MonicaP at February 3, 2014 10:28 AM
People are getting themselves in knots over nothing.
Posted by: MonicaP at February 3, 2014 10:28 AM
I dont think so. The immigration patterns are quite a bit different now than they were a hundred years ago. There was no such thing as bilingual education, and government twisting itself into knots over cultural sensitivity, with ever burgeoning social programs designed to keep immigrants from ever becoming self sufficient, producing citizens.
I see multiculturalism, and unchecked immigration by massive numbers of unassimilated immigrants forming enclaves where they fail to adopt American values, and culture as potentially the biggest problem of the next century.
However, the coming economic collapse may solve these problems along with the debt in a very ungly way.
Isab at February 3, 2014 10:57 AM
"We spread our culture, our values, our science, and engineering around the world, and English came along for the ride."
There's also the aspect that English is a more "efficient" language in many respects. We chide the English language for its quirks, and rightly so, but at least in English we don't arbitraily assign gender to inanimate objects, and we don't have completely different verb forms for spoken and written language. And we don't have some government body dictating vocabulary; we can borrow or make up words as we need to.
In the computer old days, it was a rule of thumb that if you took an English text rendered as ASCII characters and translated it to pretty much any other language, the size of the file would increase by at least 25%.
Cousin Dave at February 3, 2014 11:18 AM
I'm with MonicaP.
Maybe your great grandparents learnt English, but mine didn't learn Spanish and dropped Arabic when they moved to Mexico.
Plus Mexico is right there-not sure why people freak out over businesses catering to Hispanics. This whole section was originally Spanish, then Mexican.
Just go to Europe, or say India, or almost every fucking nation on earth.
I have an uncle who is Native American and he tells me stories of how people used to try to force them to speak English all the time to force them to culturally integrate.
Here is the thing-people integrate here because the culture is soo good. You don't have to force them. Their kids drop kick their home culture k?
I remember reading this great article where the original inhabitants here founded German speaking communities. Or what about what people did to the Creoles?
It's really nothing to worry about.
The concerning thing is our outdated laws that if you are born here that makes you an automatic citizen. Now that to me is scary.
Ppen at February 3, 2014 12:40 PM
"Plus Mexico is right there-not sure why people freak out over businesses catering to Hispanics. This whole section was originally Spanish, then Mexican."
And before that they spoke Aztec.
Who cares?
No one is freaking out over a business catering to Hispanics, We are a bit concerned over the portrayal of a multi cultural multi lingual society as a desirable.
What is tolerable if practiced by a small percentage of the population, becomes divisive when it reaches a critical mass, which has been my point all along.
You discourage foreign language enclaves among your citizens so the minority does not reach a critical mass.
And the Amish know how to communicate it English, even though their communities use Swiss German among themselves.
Kind of like single parenthood. When it becomes the accepted norm, it undermines the culture, and undermines the values we need to pass on to the next generation.
And when government supports and encourages that separateness by catering to those who don't assimilate linguistically and culturally, they create more of it.
The socialist left in this country has succeeded all too well in painting anyone who isn't charmed and completely ga ga over someone speaking anything other than English as a bigot. That is what government by emotion gets you.
Isab at February 3, 2014 2:15 PM
not sure why people freak out over businesses catering to Hispanics.
Yeah. Whenever relatives of mine from the north visit me down here, they're like, "Oh noes! The signs are in SPANISH!!"
And I'm like, "Well, that's where we're getting tacos for lunch. And for dinner, we're going to go to where all the signs are in Korean."
Here is the thing-people integrate here because the culture is soo good. You don't have to force them.
I've noticed this among alllll the second-generation kids I grew up with. Parents don't think women should work outside the home? Their daughters become doctors. Parents try to arrange their kids' marriages with someone of their religion? Kids grow up and elope with atheists. It's a beautiful thing.
sofar at February 3, 2014 2:19 PM
Multi culturaism gasp!
Personally I love it, and I aint a liberal but its buzz words like that that.sure as hell dont make me conservative.
ppen at February 3, 2014 2:42 PM
We are a bit concerned over the portrayal of a multi cultural multi lingual society as a desirable.
What is tolerable if practiced by a small percentage of the population, becomes divisive when it reaches a critical mass, which has been my point all along.
When it becomes the accepted norm, it undermines the culture, and undermines the values we need to pass on to the next generation.
Well *I* for one am a bit concerned over the portrayal of a soda-drinking society as a desirable. What is tolerable if practiced by a small percentage of the population becomes unhealthy when it reaches critical mass. When it becomes the accepted norm, it undermines the healthy behaviors and the values we need to pass on to the next generation.
sofar at February 3, 2014 2:47 PM
From 1995 (this also appears in the book "Miss Manners Rescues Civilization"):
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-10-26/features/9510260057_1_common-etiquette-speak-language
"Dear Miss Manners: Is there any rule of etiquette that says if you're from a
you have to learn to speak the language of the nation you live in?
"I have lived in Chicago for 36 years and seen my neighborhood change. Not that the neighbors who moved in have not taken care of their property--they do. It's still a quiet place to live. My problem is that none of them speak English. I am a friendly person. I like to know my neighbors and help when needed. I don't speak any other language. I don't feel I should have to. This is America, and English is our language.
"I feel like a stranger in my neighborhood. I mean no harm, but isn't it considered good manners to speak English in front of others?
"Years ago, my friend spoke her native language only at home, or when all of the people spoke that language, but spoke English where there was a person who spoke only English. They were considerate. What ever happened?"
"Gentle Reader: A good thing happened, in that people began to take pride in their backgrounds, instead of being ashamed of being immigrants.
"Then a typically American thing happened: They got so excited with a novel social idea that they went tearing off after it, leaving everything else behind, and not looking where they were going.
"What has been lost in this dash is the fact that in order to have a workable and pleasant society, people have to have a common language (and, if Miss Manners may put an extra plug in here, a common etiquette) in addition to their separate heritages, however proudly they may cherish these. People have to be able to understand those among whom they live, or they will suffer the unpleasant and dangerous consequences of misunderstanding one another.
"Your case is a poignant one. You only want to be friendly and helpful to your neighbors, but you can't talk to them.
"Miss Manners is not going to tell you, as some enthusiasts might, what a rich opportunity it is for you to learn their languages. She does not think it an unimportant point that you all happen to be living in America. Politeness, for you as the native--or, for all Miss Manners knows, a less recent arrival--consists of your interest and receptivity to being friends.
"You are quite right that etiquette requires people to attempt to speak the language of the country they are in. Even short-term tourists are expected to muster a few words. Immigrants are politely accorded lots of tolerance--time to learn, patient attempts to understand their efforts, exceptions for the very elderly--but they are expected to try."
lenona at February 3, 2014 2:47 PM
I've noticed this among alllll the second-generation kids I grew up with. Parents don't think women should work outside the home? Their daughters become doctors. Parents try to arrange their kids' marriages with someone of their religion? Kids grow up and elope with atheists. It's a beautiful thing.
Posted by: sofar at February 3, 2014 2:19 PM
___________________________________
Aside from relatively new immigrant families, I'd love to know just how often that happens - after all, in theory, young adults who rebel that much are supposedly the exception, not the rule. (There's a reason that the Mormon population is increasing, IIRC.) At the same time, though, I think it's foolish for evangelical families to have huge families so as to outbreed the enemy and create "God's armies," since there's no guarantee most of their kids are going to take that sort of missionary work seriously - or even stick to their parents' extremist views in the first place.
Some definite examples of overwhelming young rebellion would be approval of legal pot - and gay marriage. I can't imagine less than 90% acceptance in another 50 years or so.
lenona at February 3, 2014 3:01 PM
Whoops, forgot two words from the column:
"Dear Miss Manners: Is there any rule of etiquette that says if you're from a foreign country you have to learn to speak the language of the nation you live in?"
(For some reason, there was a link attached to those missing words which made them hellish to copy and paste - and I forgot to type them in.)
lenona at February 3, 2014 3:03 PM
And, I hate to ask, just how often do young Muslim MEN really assimilate into non-Muslim countries if their parents don't really tolerate non-Muslims or female equality - never mind interfaith marriage?
(If the answer is "few," I also wonder what Sam Harris would suggest doing, other than maybe firmly refusing to tolerate any sign of discrimination by Muslims any more than we would tolerate it by any other religion. That is, he wrote in 2006: "Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. The demographic trends are ominous: Given current birthrates, France could be a majority Muslim country in 25 years, and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow.")
More here - it's not pretty:
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam
lenona at February 3, 2014 3:16 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/02/03/press_one_for_e_1.html#comment-4235487">comment from ppenI love that people are from a multiplicity of cultures and it's part of the reason I was hot to get out of Michigan. I also like when people retain their cultures -- but while becoming fully American and participating fully as Americans, which you cannot do if you don't speak the language.
Amy Alkon at February 3, 2014 3:35 PM
Well *I* for one am a bit concerned over the portrayal of a soda-drinking society as a desirable. What is tolerable if practiced by a small percentage of the population becomes unhealthy when it reaches critical mass. When it becomes the accepted norm, it undermines the healthy behaviors and the values we need to pass on to the next generation.
Posted by: sofar at February 3, 2014 2:47 PM
When the "cola wars" begin, let me know.
20 million people at least lost their lives in the 20th century over differences in culture, language, and ethnicity. Trivializing it by an analogy to soft drinks, is petty and unprincipled.
Most of my mother's aunts, uncles, and cousins were murdered or staved to death in Stalin's purges because they were ethnic Germans living in Russia.
The fact that they had been there two hundred years simply did not matter.
I can give you a hundred other historical examples, but I am sure you don't need any, because somehow the United States is just special, and nothing like that could ever happen here. Right?
Your posts from Miss Manners indicate that you think the issue is one of etiquette. I disagree. I think it is about the survival of civilization.
Isab at February 3, 2014 3:37 PM
Sorry Lenona, I skipped the break, and read your top post, and SoFars, as being the same one.
We are going to see very shortly, in relatively history either Europe being conquered without a whimper, or an ethnic conflict that will get really ugly, when various European countries run out of money which they use to bribe their immigrant population to keep the riots small and manageable.
Isab at February 3, 2014 3:46 PM
I apologize in advance for popping all these ardently linguistic theories, but language acquisition has already been studied and is reasonably well understood. It doesn't really follow any of these virtuous patriotic or ethical theories, it follows biology and human nature. A simple summary would be:
1.) First generation is fluent in the language of the old country, sucks at the new language, works like dogs to make it in their new home. May work at jobs well below their education or potential simply because no one understands them. This sucks but they live with it. May never really get good at the new language either due to the reasons given upthread or because they are simply past the normal window of language aquisition
2.) Second generation, or children raised here in their early years, come up bilingual, are good in both languages, provided they get to hear and practice both languages. May somewhat take advantage of parents because parents need them as translators.
3.) Third generation is fully fluent in English, has some of the old language but may be weak in it. from this point on they are essentially the same as any other American, at least in terms of language.
All of us who come from anywhere but Britain went through this same procedure, so we have no business harassing the new guys for being just as bad as we were.
Oh, and SwissArmyD, if it's you trying to work through something difficult in a foreign language you may find that you do the exact same thing as these immigrants. For something like "Please, I would like some rice" it is reasonable to fumble around in that crazy new language, how wrong can it go?
For things that are harder or delicate or outside your normal range it makes sense to fall back into your comfort zone so you don't really screw things up. It's not necessarily that they are playing you.
kenmce at February 3, 2014 4:05 PM
When the "cola wars" begin, let me know.
I think your comparison to people singing a patriotic song in their native tongue in a freakin' soda commercial to the lives lost to genocide is missing a *few* steps as well. And is just as trivializing.
sofar at February 3, 2014 4:26 PM
But comparing super bowl commercials to mass genocides is like totally not extreme at all. Right?
Never mind that this is the first time in history that so many countries, languages, and cultures have congregated into one country called the U.S.A. And having traveled the world I can tell you that whatever we are doing-we are doing it right.
Forcing people to adopt, adapt or learn never works. But you gotta let it flow naturally like we do.
And a fucking super bowl commercial doesn't say anymore than as sofar's so aptly analogies about soda pop.
Ppen at February 3, 2014 4:30 PM
Here's a timeline of native language schooling (European enclaves) and bilingual education in the U.S.:
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/roots_in_history/bilingual_timeline1.html
And a link to a PBS documentary on the subject:
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/roots_in_history/bilingual.html
I took a class in education policy awhile back and read a book (cannot remember the title) which detailed that the common characteristic of successful schools was the feeling of belonging to a community - practices that gave children a sense that they were a part of and contributing to something greater than themselves. Shared language is part of but not the only or necessarily the first step toward that goal.
The stores in my hometown now feature signage in English and Spanish. This, and Dora the Explorer, is helping my niece learn Spanish through immersion. I think this is a boon in an economic and legal system designed to facilitate peace through mutual economic interdependence. I don't take it to mean that most of the native Spanish speaking people who are new to town are not going to bother to learn to read English.
A friend of mine who is first generation American took advantage (when she was a girl) of her mother's lack of knowledge about the money system to pocket a lot of leftover change from trips to the local store. That was good while it lasted.
In a country this big, with so many cultures and porous communities, there are many incentives and opportunities to learn English.
Michelle at February 3, 2014 4:35 PM
@lenona I will forever concede to Miss Manners, as she is ALWAYS right. And she IS right in her answer to that particular question.
Not sure if it applies to this commercial, though, as there is no indication that these singers do not also know English... or aren't trying to learn it. It's odd to me that the knee-jerk reaction to hearing another language spoken (or sung) is "this person doesn't speak English." Especially when the very act of translating of "America the beautiful" requires English fluency.
oh, and kenmce's post is great ... proves that there's nothing new to see here.
sofar at February 3, 2014 4:43 PM
In a country this big, with so many cultures and porous communities, there are many incentives and opportunities to learn English.
Posted by: Michelle at February 3, 2014 4:35 PM
So you would be in favor of the government issuing all documents in English, and relying on all citizens to know the language?
Also the question becomes if teaching Spanish is so wonderful, why stop there? Why not Mandarin, Japanese, Swahili , Farsi, and Arabic?
I would argue that they teach Spanish in schools for cultural reasons, to try and legitimize it as "equal" with English for use in the US as an official language.
And my point, sofar, which I made badly, was not to equate a Coke commercial with genocide
but to attempt to illustrate for non historians that cultural and language differences start small, and seem cute, and quaint to begin with, but have ended badly, in hundreds of places in the world when they are ultimately used as a wedge to separate "them" from "us".
In the worst cases, leading to almost a complete extermination of the "thems" like Germans in Russia, Armenians in Turkey, Jews in Germany, etc. There are dozens of examples in Africa alone. Also in South America.
Isab at February 3, 2014 5:34 PM
>So you would be in favor of the government issuing all >documents in English, and relying on all citizens to know >the language?
No, not where the benefits of facilitating the respective agency meeting its goals outweigh the cost of translation. As someone mentioned above, the complicated issues and procedures can outpace the language skills we require of aliens and new citizens.
>Also the question becomes if teaching Spanish is so >wonderful, why stop there? Why not Mandarin, Japanese, >Swahili , Farsi, and Arabic?
Mandarin classes are also now available in my hometown. I think that formal Spanish classes are less important to native English speakers where immersion learning is available. I think from the standpoint of maximizing her language learning potential, early exposure to a second language is more important than which language.
>I would argue that they teach Spanish in schools for >cultural reasons, to try and legitimize it as "equal" with >English for use in the US as an official language.
That wasn't the purpose in my hometown 30 or even 20 years ago, when we could also study German, French, or Latin.
Michelle at February 3, 2014 5:57 PM
America is what it is because of British Protestants. We are not French Catholics, so we are not Québec. We are not Portuguese Catholics so we are not Brazil. We are not Spanish Catholics, so we are not Mexico.
Do not miss the practicalities of the single language in a nation. Previously on this blog, I have posted the Emergency Response Guidebook. It covers the transportation and handling of thousands of hazardous materials in the billions of tons nationwide. Imagine for a moment that it had to be printed in six languages.
Imagine for a moment the rescue team, your volunteer firefighters, arriving at the scene to find out they cannot speak to anyone to find the location of a trapped child.
Do not miss the total inability of an American citizen who cannot speak English to serve effectively in technical jobs in the military. Can you imagine printing a reactor plant manual in six languages or so?
Radwaste at February 3, 2014 6:22 PM
... but to attempt to illustrate for non historians that cultural and language differences start small, and seem cute, and quaint to begin with
"Cute" you say? Speaking of cute commercials that hold a disturbing truth, visible only to the most observant, you MUST view this take on the Budweiser puppy commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo8luCBcvd4#t=80
We're sitting here arguing about whether a Coke commercial signals the coming of the non-English-speaking HORDES, when Budweiser's got a commercial signaling the coming of the ANTICHRIST. How could we be so blind?
sofar at February 3, 2014 6:27 PM
Radwaste, I have no problem with a language proficiency or other proficiency requirements for public or private sector jobs.
That's a separate matter than, say, making tax forms or federal student lending forms (parents must cosign) available in multiple languages.
And the emergency scenario you conjoured, of trying to communicate to care for an endangered child - what government mandate could be more compelling or motivating than that? I think people do as well as they can to learn the home language.
In the meantime, I especially want translated those documents and public service announcements that let otherwise isolated and vulnerable people know that they can reach out for help - whether it is to escape abuse, seek medical attention, or otherwise get a foothold.
Michelle at February 3, 2014 6:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement
An example of a two language/ culture country in North America.
Isab at February 3, 2014 8:40 PM
I understand the point you are trying to make but I view it in a different light.
Family friends are Québécois and they try to artificially enforce their language via draconian laws. If they let things flow naturally like we do I don't think they'd have such a problem.
Ppen at February 3, 2014 10:45 PM
It is about time someone mentioned Quebec. It's an instructive situation, if one cares to learn. Mrs D thought it was somewhere between ridiculous and obscene that the written test for a drivers license was even offered in Japanese. She took it in English, with great difficulty, because she's living here.
MarkD at February 4, 2014 4:37 AM
Your posts from Miss Manners indicate that you think the issue is one of etiquette. I disagree. I think it is about the survival of civilization.
Posted by: Isab at February 3, 2014 3:37 PM
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Er, didn't you notice what I mentioned - that the column was reprinted in the book "Miss Manners Rescues Civilization"?
I.e., as MM so often points out, manners and etiquette aren't merely the icing on the cake - they're the cement that holds society together. She's also said that etiquette and morals sometimes - though not always - overlap, and that when etiquette rules are broken, that can serve as an alarm bell for those on the lookout for people who are about to do something even worse. So it should be no surprise that, say, crime issues routinely pop up in her column.
One great quote of hers (from a 1984 book): "When a society abandons its ideals just because most people can't live up to them, behavior gets very ugly indeed."
lenona at February 4, 2014 7:43 AM
One great quote of hers (from a 1984 book): "When a society abandons its ideals just because most people can't live up to them, behavior gets very ugly indeed."
Posted by: lenona at February 4, 2014 7:43 AM
True, but I am more concerned about government putting their thumb on the scale in favor of entitlements and laws stacked in favor of bilingual documents, and a balkanized society.
And although Ppen thinks Quebec is somehow different than here, my experience has been in observing laws and mission creep, , that "permitted"quickly becomes "mandated" when the minority thinks they have gained the upper hand in a province or a state.
From my understanding, Quebec didn't become militant about their language and ethnicity until the 1960's.
There are plenty of signs that the ultimate endgame of Spanish speakers is to recapture political control of most of the Southwest portion of the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)
Isab at February 4, 2014 8:03 AM
GOD NOT THAT RECONQUISTA BULLSHIT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
IT IRRITATES ME TO NO END.
I fucking loathe conservatives for regurgitating that shit up over and over again. And they wonder why minorities just snicker at them.
I've worked, lived, and AM part of that community and I can tell you they are considered something akin to the 'Muslims' in the black community. Nobody buys into that shit-except perhaps the same people that created Cinco de Mayo (a holiday that Mexicans don't even acknowledge).
But you know better than me right Isab?
As for Quebecois it was a totally different situation that what the United States. They established a FUCKING LAW in the 1770's that the government MUST recognize French culture and law.
Ppen at February 4, 2014 10:20 AM
The Quebec Act of 1774 was little more than a blatant attempt to buy the loyalty of the former French colonists of New France which was acquired by Britain in the 1763 Treaty of Paris. Faced with a choice of losing some colonies to Britain, France chose to keep the sugar plantations of Guadeloupe and Martinique instead of Canada which had few exports of value to France.
That same law was one of the Intolerable Acts that drove the Americans to revolution. In it, Parliament took the Northwest Territories (including today's Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin and Minnesota) away from the 13 colonists and gave them to Quebec as Indian land.
French did not become the official language of Quebec until 1974. Prior to 1974, Quebec had no official language (although both English and French were the official languages of the Quebec Parliament and courts).
Subsequent amendments to the French-first laws have created controversy as the amendments have dictated the size of the French signage versus the English signage, primacy of languages, etc.
Conan the Grammarian at February 4, 2014 12:33 PM
"I fucking loathe conservatives for regurgitating that shit up over and over again. And they wonder why minorities just snicker at them."
I'm not a conservative. i'm a classic economic liberal, not to be confused with a "libertarian"
If I recall, one of the people who considers the Aztlán movement a credible threat is Mikey Kaus, a democrat.
One thing about the Mexicans, they are very Catholic, and very anti Gay with an irrational attachment to the language and culture of the Conquistadores, who were really nothing more than vicious murderous caucasian thugs. The Philippines didn't care much for them either.
The democrats are betting that Hispanic's desire for unrestricted immigration, and legalization in the US will trump their anti gay bias, and conservative social beliefs. I'm not so sure.
Isab at February 4, 2014 1:42 PM
GOD NOT THAT RECONQUISTA BULLSHIT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
IT IRRITATES ME TO NO END.
I fucking loathe conservatives for regurgitating that shit up over and over again. And they wonder why minorities just snicker at them.
I consider my self an opportunistic sociopathic anarchist, but I hat to burst your bubble Ppen, but that movement is real, its not as big a alarmists like to pretend, but it does exist
lujlp at February 4, 2014 2:43 PM
We've argued about this before lujlp.
My friend founded a chapter here in SoCal and yet people on this blog insist they understand it better than I do because they read wikipedia pages or heard token liberals like Mickey Kaus. I wouldn't ask that dude to tell me about MEChA anymore than I would Michelle Malkin to teach me Japanese American history.
The only thing they've been able to accomplish is Cinco de Mayo, a holiday that Mexicans don't even recognize and is akin to St. Patricks Day. Mexicans chuckle at the thought of Cinco de Mayo. It's utterly foreign to them.
"One thing about the Mexicans, they are very Catholic,"
Oops, except for the fact they are becoming annoying Evangelical Christians in mass droves (much to my chagrin).
"and very anti Gay"
It's not quite that simple, homosexuality is shunned by most but also quite accepted. It's a weird dynamic. It’s weird ok?
"with an irrational attachment to the language and culture of the Conquistadores"
Second generation kids can’t even write in Spanish, and barely read it. Their parents can’t seem bothered to teach them with their “irrational attachment” to Spanish.
Culturally Mexicans borrow tons (including linguistically) from Nahuatl. So to say they are “irrationally attached” culturally to the Conquistadors is like saying American Blacks are super English.
MECHA people are incredibly prideful about their Aztec past and if you are going to label this fucking separatist movement at least FIND OUT that they FUCKING HATE THE CONQUISTADORES.
Ppen at February 4, 2014 4:33 PM
The Quebecois had the inklings of a separatist movement from the beginning, especially when the Americans actively encouraged it during the Revolutionary War.
Historians acknowledge the British were smart for establishing French civil law, language and the free practice of Catholicism.
They never had an influx of Frenchies like we do of Mexicans.
And yet despite that continual influx of Mexicans a "Quebec" hasn't been established in the U.S. by now.
And I'm supposed to be sitting here thinking a bunch of MEChA nerds are going to accomplish that.
Right........especially when Mexicans joke around to their daughters that if they want to improve the race they should:
"Marry a white guy"
Ppen at February 4, 2014 4:44 PM
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