Indoctrinating Men That They Are Criminals By Virtue Of Being Male
Last month, I saw this bit I've pasted in below, and I forgot to do a blog post on it then, but it's worth taking a look at.
It's an example of how the push for "equality" has become a push for unearned power over men -- and, in the process, a way to squash the less-than-alpha males into terrified eunuchs. Scott Aronson commented on his blog, excerpted here:
I spent my formative years--basically, from the age of 12 until my mid-20s--feeling not "entitled," not "privileged," but terrified. I was terrified that one of my female classmates would somehow find out that I sexually desired her, and that the instant she did, I would be scorned, laughed at, called a creep and a weirdo, maybe even expelled from school or sent to prison. You can call that my personal psychological problem if you want, but it was strongly reinforced by everything I picked up from my environment: to take one example, the sexual-assault prevention workshops we had to attend regularly as undergrads, with their endless lists of all the forms of human interaction that "might be" sexual harassment or assault, and their refusal, ever, to specify anything that definitely wouldn't be sexual harassment or assault. I left each of those workshops with enough fresh paranoia and self-hatred to last me through another year.My recurring fantasy, through this period, was to have been born a woman, or a gay man, or best of all, completely asexual, so that I could simply devote my life to math, like my hero Paul Erdös did. Anything, really, other than the curse of having been born a heterosexual male, which for me, meant being consumed by desires that one couldn't act on or even admit without running the risk of becoming an objectifier or a stalker or a harasser or some other creature of the darkness.
Of course, I was smart enough to realize that maybe this was silly, maybe I was overanalyzing things. So I scoured the feminist literature for any statement to the effect that my fears were as silly as I hoped they were. But I didn't find any. On the contrary: I found reams of text about how even the most ordinary male/female interactions are filled with "microaggressions," and how even the most "enlightened" males--especially the most "enlightened" males, in fact--are filled with hidden entitlement and privilege and a propensity to sexual violence that could burst forth at any moment.
Because of my fears--my fears of being "outed" as a nerdy heterosexual male, and therefore as a potential creep or sex criminal--I had constant suicidal thoughts. As Bertrand Russell wrote of his own adolescence: "I was put off from suicide only by the desire to learn more mathematics."
At one point, I actually begged a psychiatrist to prescribe drugs that would chemically castrate me (I had researched which ones), because a life of mathematical asceticism was the only future that I could imagine for myself. The psychiatrist refused to prescribe them, but he also couldn't suggest any alternative: my case genuinely stumped him. As well it might--for in some sense, there was nothing "wrong" with me. In a different social context--for example, that of my great-grandparents in the shtetl--I would have gotten married at an early age and been completely fine. (And after a decade of being coy about it, I suppose I've finally revealed the meaning of this blog's title.) [...]
Now, the whole time I was struggling with this, I was also fighting a second battle: to maintain the liberal, enlightened, feminist ideals that I had held since childhood, against a powerful current pulling me away from them. I reminded myself, every day, that no, there's no conspiracy to make the world a hell for shy male nerds. There are only individual women and men trying to play the cards they're dealt, and the confluence of their interests sometimes leads to crappy outcomes. No woman "owes" male nerds anything; no woman deserves blame if she prefers the Neanderthals; everyone's free choice demands respect.
That I managed to climb out of the pit with my feminist beliefs mostly intact, you might call a triumph of abstract reason over experience. But I hope you now understand why I might feel "only" 97% on board with the program of feminism.
Do not doubt that there is a problem, but sounds like he has some issues looking for a root cause.
Not uncommon I'm sure at the teen ages, but we are supposed to think for ourselves (guys that is - we know girls have to be told what to think).
Bob in Texas at February 27, 2015 8:12 AM
Male is the new black. It's OK, nobody has given me anything yet, so why start now?
MarkD at February 27, 2015 8:28 AM
Bob, I had the same experiences in school. I have known since 1st or 2nd grade that I was a bad person. Being both male and white it was made abundantly clear to me I am inherently and irredeemably evil. Unlike Mr. Aronson I have embraced that evil.
Ben at February 27, 2015 8:40 AM
Appears to me that even after all that, Aaronson still has a rose-colored-glasses view of what postmodern feminism is.
Cousin Dave at February 27, 2015 9:12 AM
That dude better not join me in Nursing. Talk about hostility in the workforce. Jeesh.
adam bein at February 27, 2015 9:17 AM
Deer feminsts,
Please stop with the man shaming. Also, you can suck my balls. How's that for microaggression? ok, phrasing...
No woman "owes" male nerds anything;
True. On the other hand, son, you don't "owe" them anything in return. You have to walk your own path, either alone, or with those who choose to walk it with you.
Also, I'm going to object to the use of "males". That's a dehumanizing term and I will say that is used as a prejudicial term. Males? dogs, cats, mice, humans, zebras can all be males. But male mice are never men.
I R A Darth Aggie at February 27, 2015 9:18 AM
What's striking about Aronson's post is that despite his cringing efforts to not blame feminism for his problems, many feminists responded by attacking him anyway. Marcotte wrote a particularly vile piece that was basically, "Ha-ha, nerdboy can't get laid."
Mike at February 27, 2015 9:53 AM
I spent my formative years--basically, from the age of 12 until my mid-20s--feeling not "entitled," not "privileged," but terrified. I was terrified that one of my female classmates would somehow find out that I sexually desired her, and that the instant she did, I would be scorned, laughed at, called a creep and a weirdo, maybe even expelled from school or sent to prison.
Jesus Christ. What a pussy.
I was smart enough to realize that maybe this was silly, maybe I was overanalyzing things. So I scoured the feminist literature for any statement to the effect that my fears were as silly as I hoped they were. But I didn't find any.
Why were you looking there?
At one point, I actually begged a psychiatrist to prescribe drugs that would chemically castrate me (I had researched which ones), because a life of mathematical asceticism was the only future that I could imagine for myself.
I would suggest, none too gently, that a man seeking chemical castration brings a set of mental problems to the yard that cannot be laid off on external forces.
Who are all these weenie victim-men running around?
Kevin at February 27, 2015 10:00 AM
This hits pretty hard even weeks later, as the experience of an individual... who has internalized following rules and shame, to an almost pathological level. There are plenty of people in the world like that, and I think many people come to understand that there is more to it than that... others, not.
What messes with them the most, is that EVEN IF you follow the rules closely, it still may not be good enough, while paradoxically some who break the rules are rewarded.
I can understand the shell he was in, if not the depth of it.
Amy tells the story of a man named Gregg, and a stolen kiss that sent a lot of dominoes tumbling - and while I'm thinking "nice move, dude!" I also know I would NEVER do that. Beyond the minefield of having the cops called on you or some other punishment... or imagined punishment, I'm just not the type... having taught many female friends how to avoid the drunken kiss they don't want.
OTOH, when I was young, I didn't look deeply into the other side of it: what if they actually want that kiss?
There lay madness, because there is no fast rule for that... there is no rule for when 'no' means 'convince me'. So the most prudent path is to make that your own rule, and follow it assiduously.
Nothing wrong with that, except for when you miss the hints that point the other way, and rather than doing something that might light her skirts afire, she says, 'thanks for the coffee' and walks away. Then a few weeks later you see her on the arm of someone who doesn't think like you.
If you happen to be a guy with a mostly binary yes/no view of the world [which our intrepid young blogger above seems to be] all of this is a distraction to your mission which is to become a mathperson without peer.
IF boyo gets lucky someday, it'll be on the arm of a girl who sees a person worth leading, a guy with a strong sense of rules, that she might teach her own rules to. The lucky part is that he will notice her flagging him...
Meanwhile as is the wont of the net today, why do we even know this stuff?
Because it got posted and spread, and vilified and championed... hopefully the guy didn't hurt himself over that.
This is one datapoint only... you ain't gonna change any feminists minds like that. At best we can teach guys like this to look at the whole situation and decide what things they can do, and what they don't want to.
If he does have such issues, it's prolly better that he opt out, anyway. There are ways to take care of urges... better that than a rule following strict person find out what a dog's dinner divorce court is.
SwissArmyD at February 27, 2015 10:19 AM
This hits pretty hard even weeks later, as the experience of an individual... who has internalized following rules and shame, to an almost pathological level. There are plenty of people in the world like that, and I think many people come to understand that there is more to it than that... others, not.
What messes with them the most, is that EVEN IF you follow the rules closely, it still may not be good enough, while paradoxically some who break the rules are rewarded.
I can understand the shell he was in, if not the depth of it.
Amy tells the story of a man named Gregg, and a stolen kiss that sent a lot of dominoes tumbling - and while I'm thinking "nice move, dude!" I also know I would NEVER do that. Beyond the minefield of having the cops called on you or some other punishment... or imagined punishment, I'm just not the type... having taught many female friends how to avoid the drunken kiss they don't want.
OTOH, when I was young, I didn't look deeply into the other side of it: what if they actually want that kiss?
There lay madness, because there is no fast rule for that... there is no rule for when 'no' means 'convince me'. So the most prudent path is to make that your own rule, and follow it assiduously.
Nothing wrong with that, except for when you miss the hints that point the other way, and rather than doing something that might light her skirts afire, she says, 'thanks for the coffee' and walks away. Then a few weeks later you see her on the arm of someone who doesn't think like you.
If you happen to be a guy with a mostly binary yes/no view of the world [which our intrepid young blogger above seems to be] all of this is a distraction to your mission which is to become a mathperson without peer.
IF boyo gets lucky someday, it'll be on the arm of a girl who sees a person worth leading, a guy with a strong sense of rules, that she might teach her own rules to. The lucky part is that he will notice her flagging him...
Meanwhile as is the wont of the net today, why do we even know this stuff?
Because it got posted and spread, and vilified and championed... hopefully the guy didn't hurt himself over that.
This is one datapoint only... you ain't gonna change any feminists minds like that. At best we can teach guys like this to look at the whole situation and decide what things they can do, and what they don't want to.
If he does have such issues, it's prolly better that he opt out, anyway. There are ways to take care of urges... better that than a rule following strict person find out what a dog's dinner divorce court is.
SwissArmyD at February 27, 2015 10:38 AM
@ Ben
Dude, I speak from experience for whatever it's worth (no cost so ...), you can re-invent yourself if you want to.
Yes, it's a shallow life experience compared to the joys evil can bring your body/physic. BUT, if you want to be "normal" that's what you have to do.
Don't embrace drugs or alcohol or a shaman of any sort (this is an individual journey). Just make a mental list of what is considered "normal" for everyday situations, leave the environments behind that reward "bad", and tough it out.
Retrain your body/brain just like you would after an accident. Day by day. Task by task. Hell, if you fail what have you "lost".
Also, forget all of that crap about not being "worthy". If you have truly embraced "evil" then you know that no ones opinion about you matters. They are not worthy of the breath they take to utter such opinions. They should be thankful you ignore them. (You might decide to have some fun.)
If you are truly a "bad ass" then you can do whatever the hell you want - including changing directions. If you are not then I've only wasted a few minutes of my day. NO big deal. Likewise, if you do not want to change - no problem here.
Take care.
Bob in Texas at February 27, 2015 10:42 AM
What messes with them the most, is that EVEN IF you follow the rules closely, it still may not be good enough, while paradoxically some who break the rules are rewarded.
Which boils down to "life's not fair," a lesson that mature men (and women) have learned long before adulthood.
Kevin at February 27, 2015 11:00 AM
"IF boyo gets lucky someday, it'll be on the arm of a girl who sees a person worth leading, a guy with a strong sense of rules, that she might teach her own rules to. "
More likely, he'll wind up with a personality-disordered woman who throws herself at him. Ask me how I know. He's gotta fix that somehow, because there'e a huge amount of peril in that. I was lucky; I got away pretty much unharmed, other than five wasted years and a bunch of money. Reading Shrink4Men taught me that a lot of guys aren't so lucky.
And this is definitely not me telling him to man up. I would never tell someone in his situation that. I'm just saying that he's going to have to change some things in order to survive. If he wants a relationship with a woman, he's going to have to work on himself first, because as it is he's easy prey for sociopathic women. If he'd really rather not, there's no shame in that, and any biological impulses can be taken care of by some combination of porn, prostitutes, and/or SSRIs. (The latter is what the psychiatrist should have given him.)
Cousin Dave at February 27, 2015 11:09 AM
Who are all these weenie victim-men running around?
Sons of feminists
If he wants a relationship with a woman,
I'd suggest one that charges by the hour.
lujlp at February 27, 2015 11:18 AM
Cousin Dave,
> Appears to me that even after all that, Aaronson still has a rose-colored-glasses view of what postmodern feminism is.
Yep. Aaronson is clearly brilliant and insightful and certainly is wearing rose colored glasses.
Kevin, I'm glad life is working out for you exactly as planned.
jerry at February 27, 2015 11:23 AM
Kevin, I'm glad life is working out for you exactly as planned.
It's pretty swell compared to that mope!
Kevin at February 27, 2015 11:29 AM
Scott taught himself calculus at age 11, skips high school and had his bachelor's degree in computer science by age 19, his ph.d by age 23, now teaches Quantum Computing at MIT.
Calling him a pussy is pretty easy to do. May as well pants him and give him a wedgie while you're at it.
jerry at February 27, 2015 11:29 AM
Scott taught himself calculus at age 11, skips high school and had his bachelor's degree in computer science by age 19, his ph.d by age 23, now teaches Quantum Computing at MIT.
Agreed! Scott is a brilliant man. And, by his own words, an emotional basket case who actually had suicidal thoughts over the fear that someone, somewhere might think of him as "as a potential creep or sex criminal."
That's got nothing to do with feminists, anti-feminists, liberals, conservatives, mathematics or the price of beer. As "Bob in Texas" put it in the first response, "Do not doubt that there is a problem, but sounds like he has some issues looking for a root cause." I'd add that he's blaming others for his problems.
Kevin at February 27, 2015 11:46 AM
From the article: You can call that my personal psychological problem if you want...
Thank you. I will do just that. Seek professional help.
Patrick at February 27, 2015 12:01 PM
Yes, from the age of 12 to his mid-20s during the 2000s, this nerdy dude while getting his college degree and phd in a sea of older students had suicidal thoughts and wished he had been born differently.
I bet he's the only student who ever had these thoughts.
As you say, "Jesus Christ. What a pussy."
I doubt that being young in the 2000s and in college environments where feminist thought and feminist shaming were taking place had anything to do with the development of his issues, or where he sought for answers.
God knows there are very few boys or men like Aaronson who are ashamed of their sexual desires towards women and are fearful expressing them will mark them as creeps or worse. Similarly, I know of no women or feminists who use words like creepy or rapey when discussing men, or boys, or potential dates, or men on subways sitting down, or ranking them on websites, or anything like that.
Scott's problems are clearly his own, he is a nerd, a pussy, a mope and blaming others for his problems.
jerry at February 27, 2015 12:19 PM
I doubt that being young in the 2000s and in college environments where feminist thought and feminist shaming were taking place had anything to do with the development of his issues, or where he sought for answers.
Here's the secret key to combating the terror of "feminist thought and feminist shaming": CALL BULLSHIT ON IT.
Similarly, I know of no women or feminists who use words like creepy or rapey when discussing men, or boys, or potential dates, or men on subways sitting down, or ranking them on websites, or anything like that.
They are words. They mean nothing, unless you choose to become a pearl-clutcher, thumb-sucker or professional victim. If someone, somewhere refers to men as "creepy" or "rapey," it's no skin off my ass -- because I am not a professional victim.
Kevin at February 27, 2015 12:31 PM
Bob,
Your definition of evil and mine are not the same. I don't do drugs or rob people and in no way am I a badass. But as was clearly taught to me in public school as a white heterosexual male I am history's greatest monster. So by embracing the evil I mean, ok I am the most horrible person to have ever existed and there is nothing I can ever do to change that, so what? Now that we have established that baseline shall we do something constructive with our time?
Ben at February 27, 2015 12:32 PM
"I know of no women or feminists who use words like creepy or rapey when discussing men, or boys, or potential dates, or men on subways sitting down, or ranking them on websites, or anything like that."
Have you considered picking up a news paper? Reading feminist literature? Talk to a 20 year old? Those are all fairly common except for the website thing. I don't know what you are talking about there.
Ben at February 27, 2015 12:34 PM
Ben, you need to recalibrate your sarcasm detector.
dee nile at February 27, 2015 12:47 PM
See also Complaint, Portnoy's.
jerry at February 27, 2015 1:32 PM
Here's the secret key to combating the terror of "feminist thought and feminist shaming": CALL BULLSHIT ON IT.
Kinda hard for a 14yr old just hitting puberty surrounded by 21-23 yr old college girls.
Had he gone thru puberty with kids his own age SEEING and experiencing how the sexes interact and getting a feel for his biology BEFORE having such a toxic brand of feminism shoved down his throat by his teachers and elder peers he might not have had such a problem.
lujlp at February 27, 2015 2:26 PM
Could be Dee.
Ben at February 27, 2015 2:47 PM
No sarcasm intended. I just took him seriously.
Bob in texas at February 27, 2015 3:48 PM
I was using the leftwing definition of evil Bob. Where killing people is ok as long as you are poor and sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll is ok if you are rich. But opening a door for a woman is oppression verging on violence unless she wants you to without telling you. And what was ok yesterday is not ok today but may be ok tomorrow referring all to the same event. Yay for applied historical relativism.
Ben at February 27, 2015 5:17 PM
I was impressed by the honesty in the piece, and saddened by the realization that this indeed is probably how it is for many men, particularly those who grew up in this poisonous climate of male-hating, which seems to be getting worse by the day.
I don't have children in school, but I wonder how awful it must be for many boys who are being told that every thought and impulse they have is bad and evil, and must be expunged or removed in some fashion. Everything I have read (take a look at Christina Hoff Sommers' "The War Against Boys") indicates that males, particularly white males, are being told and taught that this on a daily basis. So little wonder that some of them grow up terrified of their own thoughts and desires. It is a thoroughly evil thing that is being done, and it is mostly being done by women who hate men, and would actually prefer a world where none existed, except perhaps for manual labor, or free theatre tickets.
I would suggest to the writer that he not be "97% on board with feminism," because current feminism is totalitarian war against men and maleness; and none of the radical feminists driving the battle have the slightest degree of concern for your struggles. The original feminism of equal pay, equal access to power, has been supplanted by a kind of terrifying Manichean duality wherein all of female is good, all of male is evil. Subscribing 97% to this is like someone saying he is 97% in favor of a fundamentalist religious state which has as its goal the elmination of all infidels, including him.
William at February 27, 2015 5:50 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/02/27/the_indoctrinat.html#comment-5871866">comment from lujlpCALL BULLSHIT ON IT. Kinda hard for a 14yr old just hitting puberty surrounded by 21-23 yr old college girls.
Luj is right.
Amy Alkon at February 27, 2015 8:26 PM
"Rapey" is especially common. It was a joke between me and my previous assistant. He's a guy, and he was the one who had the intact taste monitor to monitor my jokes, warning me, "That's a bit 'rapey.'"
Amy Alkon at February 27, 2015 8:29 PM
Some of you might want to read a bit more of his actual post, where he talks about getting out of his shell, dating and getting married.
Mike at February 27, 2015 8:32 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/02/27/the_indoctrinat.html#comment-5871892">comment from Amy AlkonSorry to be gone all day -- been at SPSP the big psych conference, having my brain overstuffed.
Amy Alkon at February 27, 2015 8:49 PM
He shoulda read Starhawk, she's a feminist who writes about positive masculinity.
NicoleK at February 28, 2015 12:00 AM
But opening a door for a woman is oppression verging on violence unless she wants you to without telling you.
Posted by: Ben at February 27, 2015 5:17 PM
______________________________
Maybe YOU get yelled at for holding a door for a woman, but I doubt it. I'm in public a lot and while plenty of women (and men) do not thank strangers for such little courtesies, I have never witnessed a woman's being loudly ungrateful either. (Usually, both men and women DO say thank you.)
I suspect, though, that the 1-in-100 case of a raving loony can be defused simply by not posing like a uniformed doorman. That is, regardless of whether the door opens inward or outward, if you hold it open while staying AHEAD of the woman, it just seems like an everyday courtesy and not like a Sir Walter Raleigh gesture. I'm reasonably sure it will work fine on dates with modern young women as well.
lenona at February 28, 2015 11:48 AM
It has happened on more than one occasion. But never on a date. It is rather weird to have a complete stranger yell feminist gibberish at you for a common courtesy.
Ben at February 28, 2015 1:51 PM
I've had it happen on several occasions
"I can open my own door!"
I usually kick the little twats in their ass, buckle them extra tight into their car seat and sip my coffee.
jerry at February 28, 2015 7:38 PM
I have had a woman that I was on date with tell me I should open the door for her. On the way home I didn't open the car door for her. That was also a mistake....opening the restaurant door was repressive, open car doors for date is just common courtesy she explained to me. We did not have another date.
It is far from a regular occurrence but it has happened many times say something like Jerry mentions: "I can manage the door on my own"
The Former Banker at February 28, 2015 11:49 PM
It has happened on more than one occasion.
Posted by: Ben at February 28, 2015 1:51 PM
As in, ten times in the last 12 months?
If you hold a door for a female stranger almost three times a day, that still comes very close to the figure I gave above. See my second paragraph again.
lenona at March 1, 2015 3:39 PM
It has happened 3 times in my life, so no, not common. You said you doubted it had ever happened. All three times I've experience this it was a complete stranger. The Former Banker got it on a date. I put it on par with weirdos who lecture strangers on breast feeding. Similarly there is no 'defusing' to be done. The woman went off on her rant and then left. I wasn't posing as a doorman (not something we have here in the south). As best I recall I went out the door and held it for the next person coming in. Something I do for everyone regardless of gender.
Ben at March 1, 2015 5:35 PM
I've had it happen to me once or twice.
I respond by calling them sexist for assuming that I am only doing it because they are a woman
lujlp at March 1, 2015 6:29 PM
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