Drones Over Homes: Where Should The No-Fly Zone Begin?
Welcome to the wild, wild high-tech West.
A question from the WSJ:
Drones are coming. Regulations are evolving. Should you be allowed to prevent drones from flying over your property?
Drones Over Homes: Where Should The No-Fly Zone Begin?
Welcome to the wild, wild high-tech West.
A question from the WSJ:
Drones are coming. Regulations are evolving. Should you be allowed to prevent drones from flying over your property?
Impulse response: If government gets special authority, exceptions or dispensations at the start of this revolution, we've lost the war.
Crid at May 26, 2016 10:18 PM
There is already well established case law on surveillance by air, and what the police are allowed to observe on your property from the air.
I suspect private drones are going to be an unpreventable annoyance, but evidence standards in a court of law, should theoretically at least, prevent them from gathering evidence for a criminal prosecution without a warrant.
Isab at May 27, 2016 3:28 AM
I am reminded that there are those who welcome the surveillance state with open arms, thinking that being watched all the time means that they are "safe".
Out here in the sticks, drones will be shot down. There's no way we can tell it's not some thug scoping out our property, and there is no one to call.
Those of you in "civilized" areas will just have to put up with it.
Radwaste at May 27, 2016 4:05 AM
An ammo supplier (I think it was Lucky Gunner, but one of those that's more of a social one...) ran an April Fool's prank a couple years ago of an anti-drone 12 gauge shotgun shell.
They had to send out an email within an hour explaining, no, it's not real, and, no, they won't be getting it in, and, no, it doesn't matter how many customers ask for this thing.
I would like to say that no jury should convict for shooting down a drone over your house, but this is America, all bets are off.
ElVerdeLoco at May 27, 2016 5:37 AM
The range of the 12-gauge is quite limited. I expect the .17 or various varieties of .22s to be used out here.
Radwaste at May 27, 2016 5:47 AM
As far as the aircraft itself, it should be the same as for any other aircraft. The FAA requires that aircraft maintain a minimum altitude above ground level (or the highest obstacle) of 1000' in congested areas, and 500' elsewhere.
And good luck with shooting one down. I've experienced a Shadow-sized (about a 1/3 scale Cessna) UA flying directly overhead at 500', and even though I could hear it and I had a radar showing me exactly where to look, I could not see it.
Cousin Dave at May 27, 2016 6:14 AM
As long as people have access to sharp, pointy sticks, low flying drones will not be safe:
https://youtu.be/uhbuEUoxntQ
And I agree that out in the boonies drones will be shot down, and when found the electronics soaked to fry any communications gear. Then the whole thing buried, under a log somewhere out on the south 40.
One should be able jam the comm channel pretty easily, since they're relatively low powered.
Nostalgia: the first shooter game Marathon had a level entitled "Beware of low flying defense drones".
I R A Darth Aggie at May 27, 2016 6:27 AM
CD, I don't think drones at that height bother people. It's the your neighbor is putting his flying camera right over your back yards for hours whenever your daughter goes out to sunbathe that gets people riled up. Or hanging around outside of your bedroom window. In both those cases the drone is very low flying.
My biggest concern is where the bullets fall to ground. We already have an issue with Hispanics randomly firing into the air on certain holidays. What goes up must come down and every once in a while someone gets hit.
Ben at May 27, 2016 7:42 AM
We can all check out each others' properties from a distance on Google Earth anyway- it's the activities that Ben mentions that are going to cause problems- hovering near people's windows and low over backyards. We live in a rural area and there are some people with hobby drones out here- but they don't hover over people's homes and yards. They're mostly out over the lake and way up getting landscape shots. There are helicopters out here all the time too, and people certainly aren't trying to shoot those down.
I read some anecdote last week about a dad shooting down a drone that was hovering over his teenagers while they sunbathed. I can see my husband doing that... but we live on enough land that there's really no reason that someone would fly their drone low over our place unless they were either thieves or creepers.
ahw at May 27, 2016 8:28 AM
I'm with Ben on this one. As much as I sympathize with wanting to shoot down a drone hovering over my property, there is a safety issue here. What goes up must come down. If you hit that drone, the drone goes down. What happens if you miss the shot? Where is that bullet going to land? There is a reason they have back stops at the range.
Shtetl G at May 27, 2016 9:12 AM
"There is a reason they have back stops at the range."
Okay.
At the range, a bullet still has most of the velocity and energy imparted to it by the gun when it hits that backstop. Fired straight up, ALL of that energy is absorbed by air friction and gravity, and then gravity returns the bullet to earth. The bullet accelerates at first at about 32ft/sec^2, diminishing by wind resistance until the weight of the bullet exactly matches the force of that wind resistance. Most bullets hit the ground before this equilibrium occurs. Think, "hail". A hailstone really does weigh about the same as some bullets, though of course one is less dense. The change in sectional density of the bullet depending on the angle of attack is a major variable (it doesn't fall on the pointy end).
Isab is the serious shooter, perhaps she can elaborate so I don't have to search for a good infographic or something.
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Cousin - a radar with a meaningful 500' minimum scale? What hardware is that?
Radwaste at May 27, 2016 10:26 AM
That's where some kind of short-range shot ammunition would come in handy. It goes up 300 feet or so, then it comes down at a much lower velocity, and the falling shot has minimal impact. A reloader could probably work out the needed parameters.
Cousin Dave at May 27, 2016 10:27 AM
Raddy, I don't know if I should name it here.. it's a small phased-array radar with 3-D capability. It was on a low tower about 1/4-mile away from where I was.
Cousin Dave at May 27, 2016 10:34 AM
Ahw,
The case I think you are referring to happened in Kentucky. The drone was ~200 ft up. If I recall correctly he took the drone down with birdshot (small pellets). It really doesn't take much to take down civilian drones. A BB hitting a blade can knock them out of the sky.
Rad,
You are correct that a falling bullet is not the same as a direct fire one. But an unlucky hit can blind or even kill. Randomly firing into the sky is not a good idea. But yes, it isn't as bad as randomly firing into a house.
Cousin Dave,
Birdshot has a typical effective range of ~40 yards or 120 feet. It's effectiveness against a quadracopter would probably be a bit further. So there is already a product on the market that meets these needs. (Still, please don't go around randomly shooting into the sky in an urban area.)
Ben at May 27, 2016 11:10 AM
I know guns are more viscerally satisfying... but were I to have the ranch I want someday... I'd have my own drone... or a swarm of them, just to keep tabs on the ranch. ESP. when you smell a hint of smoke on the wind... you want to know there it's coming from.
If I intercept a drone in my airspace, I will bag it with a net launcher... and when I examine it, before I power it down, I'll put up a sheet before the camera: "You can get your drone back at such and such place, if you can provide me a good explanation of why you were surveilling me.
Otherwise it will be added to my collection."
Low flying drones in cities, I would think the net launcher from the ground would be fine. After some jerkwad gets a couple of his drowns downed, he'll learn not to do that.
Other than that, regulation should be about not putting people in danger, like flying a drone above Tour de France or something, where a falling drone would hurt people.
SwissArmyD at May 27, 2016 11:37 AM
I don't know how much they cost but someone's got you covered Swiss.
http://openworksengineering.com/skywall
Ben at May 27, 2016 12:45 PM
Thanks, Cousin.
There are all sorts of fine apparatus out there. Sometimes it's revealed by accident... There was a video out of an Army patrol, against which an ambush went wrong because the enemy sniper missed.
And talked on the radio. Heh. Signals had him instantly, including what he was saying, a turret gunner spotted him on a distant hillside, and the duty F-16 bombed that spot in about three minutes.
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Dronewise, it's practical to realize that a military-grade piece doesn't have to get close. At engagement ranges, I'm told you can't even see an AC-130 before it opens up, much less the quieter Shadow you mentioned, and cameras work over thousands of yards.
This serves to advertise that if you can SEE a drone -- it's not a professional's, so you won't be shooting at the Sheriff's or FBI's drone.
Radwaste at May 27, 2016 12:59 PM
My PD officer brother here in central tx told us the law is on the side of the drone owner and bringing it down, even over your own property, can result in charges against you. Now, that's the official legal stance, not what he was supporting.
momof4 at May 27, 2016 4:20 PM
Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.
According to the movie people this has been SOP for the Mafia for quite some time. Should work fine for Pervy McPervodrone.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 27, 2016 4:32 PM
> The range of the 12-gauge is
> quite limited. I expect the .17
> or various varieties of .22s to
> be used out here.
Sincerely glad that people are thinking about this and planning ahead.
Crid at May 27, 2016 4:55 PM
What about a way to jam the signal that goes to a drone? They loose track of the drone, it flies off and crashes somewhere.
Patrick at May 27, 2016 5:50 PM
Jamming would get you in as much trouble with the government as would illicit drone use. And if your intruder used anything but the simplest audio signals for control, you wouldn't have a prayer of getting in the middle anyway.
Crid at May 27, 2016 10:07 PM
I've spent over 30 years shooting squirrels out of my fruit trees with a pellet gun here in the suburbs. If drones start flying over my house I'll just switch to a shotgun and keep shooting!
Chris at May 28, 2016 10:38 AM
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