It's Called Dating, Not Baiting: A Male Feminist-As-Sucker Story
Rather sad man-as-willing-sucker dating story in the LA Times.
Giorgio Selvaggio writes the first-person piece in which he makes a classic mistake -- taking a woman who's a total stranger out for a pricey dinner.
The headline: "How I found out she was only using me for free dinners and drinks."
If you're a man who's tried (or considered trying) online dating, chances are you've worried you might meet a woman looking to use you for a free expensive dinner. It seems trivial in comparison to what women have to worry about when they filter through men on dating sites, but it's still a concern, and it still happens to the best of us.I'm a high school teacher and a freelance writer, but I'm also the son of a Michelin-awarded restaurateur. My online dating profile doesn't mention my dad's accomplishments, but in moments of insecurity, I've been known to name-drop in order to keep the woman interested.
Ugh.
He takes a woman out to dinner on the first date (bad idea, see below). Yes, he dropped $130 plus tip on her -- on a near total stranger -- on a writer/teacher's salary.
Granted, he did hear from her again: as she was going on a date with some other dude to his famous dad's famous and pricey restaurant (Valentino's in Santa Monica).
And then there was this -- the saddest pussyman two paragraphs:
I had so many questions for her, like why she expected expensive dinners and bottles of wine if she "didn't take it seriously," but I thought asking would be in poor taste. So instead I just wished her good luck too, and in the end I didn't even get to do that because my number had already been blocked.Some men, frustrated after not getting a second date or not getting any action on the first, will wrongly accuse women of "just dating for the free meals." I'm not that man. If a woman doesn't want a second date, it's not my business why, and I don't know her well enough to hurl those kinds of accusations. I also don't really mind if women are out there using men for free meals, because there are plenty of men out there using women for other things, and in the end our job is to learn from our experiences and spot the red flags so we aren't the one getting used.
Dude should be reading my column and books.
As I write in "Good Manners for Nice People Who Sometimes Say F*ck," first dates should be three things:
2. Short
3. Local
Here's that passage from my book:
First dates should be cheap, short, and local.
On the first date and maybe even the second, you should meet for coffee or happy-hour drinks for an hour or two--at most. This helps keep things from going too fast (a big source of misery and resentment) and keeps the guy from needing to shell out much money. Also, if a date turns nightmarish, it will at least be a Hobbesian nightmare: nasty and brutish but also short.
And there's more:
Even if a man is very wealthy, his investment on the first few dates should be more symbolic than substantial. In fact, so there isn't a terribly imbalanced initial investment, it's important that the first few dates be moderately priced--the sort where the point is getting to know each other over a coffee or a couple of drinks, not introducing the woman to the limit on the man's American Express Platinum Card.
And a note for the ladies who are not golddiggers:
When a guy who isn't exactly a Mr. Moneybags is treating a woman to dinner, he'll be afraid of looking cheap, which will make him easy prey for every waiter upsell in the book. A woman needs to be the one to lead with the frugalities, such as, "Tap water is fine for me," when the waiter proposes the $112 bottled water, collected from dew that fell off angels' wings.
And back to poor Giorgio, here's a clue. He calls himself an "amateur feminist author."
As for why men become "feminists," I would venture it's typically for the reason men do most things: To get pussy.
Unfortunately, while women claim to want men who are -- ugh -- feminists, the truth is that many women have contempt for them and just end up taking them for a ride...complete with capuccino and a pricey dessert.
Giorgio needs a set of man balls and the instruction book on how to use 'em.
Actually, my prescription for Giorgio is this: that, for three weeks, Giorgio act like a man -- the way men were before some got the bright idea to get on the Feminism As A Supposed Highway To Pussy track -- and see where it gets him.
Just guessing, but I think he'd have fewer dinners that merely lead to a big bill and a side of humiliation.
I have as much sympathy for a guy who discovers women like him for his wallet as I do for a woman who discovers men like her for her vagina.
About the best thing I can say is "That'll learn ya," but I have no confidence he's learned anything.
$300 for this essay? Really?
Kevin at May 29, 2016 11:15 PM
If you read the article, it seems like he has a tendency to infer too much from minor things, and in a negative way.
The young woman he'd taken out was just following his lead. He was trying to impress her and she let him. Then he took offense and became accusatory. I imagine that's why she blocked him.
maurice at May 30, 2016 12:22 AM
"Granted, he did from her again: as she was going on a date with some other dude to his famous dad's famous and pricey restaurant (Valentino's in Santa Monica)."
Alkon if you read the article it is pretty clear that this dude is fucking cray. We don't know this girl was going on a date with someone else to his dad's restaurant. That's just what he chose to make up in his head, because he was making up a fucking ton of shit in his head.
This mother fucker is the kind of intellectual neurotic nutjob I often find online. The girl says she would love to go out with him but on a Saturday instead of the Tuesday he suggested. To him this means she is pushy snob who is sending him signals she is willing to grant a lowly pleb like him a Saturday.
He admits he purposely tries to bribe her with an expensive dinner so they can get into a serious relationship. This motherfucker doesn't even know the girl and he already wants to girlfriend her based on a shitty online profile.
He neurotically waits by his phone. She casually hits him up "Hey dude I am going to your dad's restaurant with a friend!". He specifically says he does not know with who (she doesn't elaborate) but he then choses to assure us, the audience, it must be another sucker and she is rubbing it in his face.
The guy then begins accusing and texting the girl that she is CREEPY. She has a polite reaction and understandably blocks his passive aggressive ass.
Ppen at May 30, 2016 3:01 AM
Hah, PPen. The thing is, it does sound like a date:
"Taking her..."
A friend isn't someone "taking you..."
And his upset and snittiness in the wake of that does sound like what Robert Glover, whom I had on my radio show, calls "covert contracts" that "nice" guys make.
The passive-aggressiveness is a big part of this -- and of not acting like an actual man.
Amy Alkon at May 30, 2016 5:21 AM
Well he's certainly screwed up enough to be a "feminist".
She agrees to everything he suggests to do.
She offers suggestions which he accepts.
She lets him know she's interested in the things he's interested in.
She initiates opportunities for him to ask her out to do things he's interested in.
She accepts his refusal graciously.
BUT IT"S ALL HER FAULT!
Bob in Texas at May 30, 2016 5:27 AM
He is the pushover; yet, he blames her for it?
Yep, that sounds like a feminist - it is always someone else's fault.
charles at May 30, 2016 5:54 AM
His idea of a "date" sounds a lot like "I pay out so you're supposed to put out." And, for a supposed sophisticated foodie, he comes across as cheap. The $130 for a meal of four selections they could share included an $80+ bottle of wine. That leaves -$50 for the 4 food orders, or about $12 each. That sounds like 4 appetizers. Later, he name-dropped his Daddy's restaurant (and she wasn't suitably impressed). But, she gave him a chance to take her. Oh, she's apparently seeing others? Guess what fool, you ain't her boy friend, or even her friend with benefits. So, after figuring out that your big on-line profile is a mask for someone whose idea of romance is a hook-up on the cheap, she blocks you. Well Boo-Hoo. Stick to cruising the Feminist Writers Workshops. You'll meet females with low opinions of genetic males, and won't have to pretend you're something that you're not
Wfjag at May 30, 2016 7:09 AM
Love your "pussyman" Amy. Hits the nail on the head.
Bob in Texas at May 30, 2016 8:26 AM
For what he paid, he could have a good time with a hooker...err...escort.
I R A Darth Aggie at May 30, 2016 8:49 AM
At least he learned something - and tried to pass along the info.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 30, 2016 10:48 AM
I R A: For what he paid, he could have a good time with a hooker...err...escort.
Yeah. He could've gotten a yoner massage.
Giorgio: Nobody has to be "huge into drinking" to join you for a cocktail on a first date; this was a push that men who've dated in Los Angeles know all too well. . . and in the end our job is to learn from our experiences and spot the red flags so we aren’t the one getting used.
It sounds like you did spot the red flag. You just chose to ignore it (probably because she was pretty.) Also, while it may be more commonplace there, women trying to upsell men from drinks (or coffee) to dinner certainly isn't exclusive to LA.
She told me the person who was taking her to my dad’s restaurant had flaked on her
See, now that guy probably did pay attention to the red flag. She says he "flaked on her." I say he made a wise decision.
Amy: First dates should be cheap, short, and local. On the first date and maybe even the second, you should meet for coffee or happy-hour drinks for an hour or two--at most.
I agree but, as I noted above, a guy can suggest this and then have a woman try to upsell him to a more expensive date. Or the woman can agree to the cheaper date initally and then go for the upsell while they're on the date. If the guy is interested in her -- especially if she's attractive and is flirting with him -- he's probably gonna agree.
JD at May 30, 2016 11:23 AM
As for why men become "feminists," I would venture it's typically for the reason men do most things: To get pussy.
There's no pussy that good.
Steve Daniels at May 30, 2016 11:29 AM
@Steve Daniels,
Let me lecture of the Saltine Cracker parable:
Picture yourself in the middle of the desert with nothing to consume but water. Now imagine how dire things are after wandering for a month walking around and having nothing but warm water to soothe your stomach.
Then out of the blue someone offers you a pair of Saltine Crackers, and you eat them. They're gonna taste like heaven even if they're just plain Saltines.
That's what's going on with these young men.
Sixclaws at May 30, 2016 11:58 AM
Name dropping your parent's name. Is this normal, among employed adults? Is this considered dignified?
Michelle at May 30, 2016 12:21 PM
I heard of a pretty cool first date once. Guy picked her, handed her 3 envelopes, said "pick just one and open it". It led to, like, a poetry reading at a library, or something. After that, a choice of 3 more envelopes. I think that choice was an ice cream shop. Inexpensive, but took some thought/planning of a small nature (finding decent choices for every envelope), and got good conversation going.
momof4 at May 30, 2016 2:16 PM
momo4--Easy fix. All 3 envelops have the same event. Guy gets to do what he wants at his price level. Girl thinks wow, what a creative guy.
Jay at May 30, 2016 2:42 PM
> All 3 envelops have
> the same event
☑ Fucking brilliant.
I mean, uh-- Cheap, cynical, and manipulative...
But given the context under discussion, it's brilliant.
This is a guy who totally gits the Monty Hall question.
Crid at May 30, 2016 5:50 PM
I forgot, this was my favorite part:
I asked my date how much I should tip. That’s always a bad sign: when you’re so desperate to impress your date that you have to ask her how much to tip
JD at May 30, 2016 10:20 PM
Michelle, I don't know if it's normal, but people will probably do (and say) all kinds of things in the hope of impressing their date. And some dates are likely impressed by something like name-dropping; others not.
JD at May 30, 2016 10:31 PM
Yeah, I made that mistake a few times. You want to impress your date; you want her to think highly of you and that you aren't a cheapskate. But there are women to whom fancy dinners are just something they take in stride; they expect it and it only meets their minimum standards. You can't afford to keep dating a woman like that, either financially or emotionally.
The first date I had with my wife, we had dinner at an Applebees/TGI Friday's type place. One of those places that's a couple of steps up from fast food, but still mass market stuff. It's hard to run up a really big bill at those places because they just don't have that much expensive stuff. If she won't agree to something of that order for a first date, then you don't need her.
Cousin Dave at May 31, 2016 6:51 AM
Some men, frustrated after not getting a second date or not getting any action on the first, will wrongly accuse women of "just dating for the free meals." I'm not that man. If a woman doesn't want a second date, it's not my business why, and I don't know her well enough to hurl those kinds of accusations. I also don't really mind if women are out there using men for free meals, because there are plenty of men out there using women for other things, and in the end our job is to learn from our experiences and spot the red flags so we aren't the one getting used.
___________________________________
I might as well mention something I mentioned a while back:
Every parent of a boy needs to educate him in his early teen years about what he cannot legally do with other human beings, no matter how angry he might be at the time about not getting what he thinks he's entitled to.
Which, naturally, leads to a boy's angry question: "Well, what legal rights DO boys have?"
I can think of two, at least.
1. Every boy and man has the right not to date a girl or a woman more than once - or even once - if she doesn't meet his "needs." What is not civilized is letting people, in general, know what his "needs" are, since chances are many women AND men will think he's a jerk for having them. In other words, if you're a man and your rule is that you don't date anyone who doesn't look like a fashion model or anyone who won't sleep with you after the first date - hell, BEFORE the first date - that is your right, but keep it to yourself. After all, if all men had those standards, women would figure out pretty quickly what was going on without being told. How they might react is another matter.
2. A man has the right to expect to take turns paying for dates and to refuse to date women who won't do this. Since many women are not used to this idea for one reason or another, it's often best to go on a modest date first (such as what Amy suggested) and then go on FREE dates until she either offers to pay the next dinner date or asks what's going on. If she's been on two or three free dates with you, chances are she won't dump you when you explain.
lenona at May 31, 2016 9:35 AM
Thanks JD.
Someone who believes their date will be impressed with name dropping... seems to have an idea of who they've asked out. Name dropping sounds qualitatively different from sharing stories about your upbringing and family. If you have your own career, or have otherwise built a life for yourself, that would be the thing to impress with if that's what you're looking to share, and build upon, with someone. It seems like this guy had a sense from the get-go that he couldn't compete in the arena he thought he was competing in. I wonder if he's clear about what he wants to gain from dating.
Michelle at May 31, 2016 9:48 AM
There was a Glamour articlee a few days ago, about which first dates are most likely to lead to marriage:
http://www.glamour.com/story/first-dates-lead-to-marriage
My first date with my husband was coffee.
NicoleK at May 31, 2016 11:16 AM
I don't quite understand, if he liked her why didn't he ask her out again? And if he didn't like her why did he care what she did? It sounded like she was into him.
NicoleK at May 31, 2016 11:25 AM
He did like her, but while waiting around for her to call him like a pansy she apparently set up a date with some other guy to go to his dads restaurant which he thought was creepy, because in his mind she was going to the restaurant solely to met his dad and not to eat food.
$20 bucks says she got tired of waiting for him to call and made up another guy to gauge how invested he was by trying to trigger his jealousy. And giving him an option by claiming he dropped out.
Instead he went nuts and basically accused her of stalking him.
I'd've blocked someone that crazy and insecure too.
lujlp at May 31, 2016 3:28 PM
Well, Amy, your little blurb got you one more sale of your book, so you can put this one in the 'win' column.
FIDO at June 2, 2016 11:33 PM
And here's Right Number Three, for young men who want to know:
It IS legal to sleep with consenting strangers. Provided, that is, it does not happen outdoors, they are not being paid for it and are not underage. No, it is not "too much wooorrrkkk" to find out that last information. Parents of teens and preteens are never going to let that law change, so accept it. Any adult can lie and claim "he/she lied about his/her age" when the kid didn't actually give an age.
Not to mention that sleeping with strangers doesn't just carry the risk of your getting infected or arrested, of course. You can also get robbed or killed. Yet, many people seem desperate enough to do it anyway.
lenona at June 6, 2016 6:02 PM
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