The Culture Wars, In Miniature
There's always that impulse to find ways to sneer that our culture isn't freer, better. Ladies and gents, I bring you the burkha vs. the pastie.
Original thread here, from a guy who sneers at me in similar ways from time to time.
So - you had blonde hair for the shoot? ;)
Radwaste at June 28, 2017 11:49 PM
"Is it really such a different principle?"
Yes it is. And you'd have to be a naive, milquetoast indoor academic who never turned a dollar into $1.05 to imagine the question was illustrative.
Crid at June 29, 2017 3:04 AM
He does have a point, though. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.
The basis, in each case, is "Woman's body is obscene and must be
covered up". It's just that it's a very large difference in degree.
Women still haven't gained parity with men, here. The law generally
enforces "offenses against public sensibilities" and defines the
portion of women's breast which is below the top of the areola as
forbidden exposure.
Our history was almost as bad as strict Arab countries today.
In the U.S., the bikini was a scandal. Before that, the one-piece
bathing suit was a scandal. Check out that history at, for instance,
http://www.victoriana.com/library/Beach/FashionableBathingSuits.htm
Mid 19th century U.S. would consider the burka to be a little
extreme, rather than, as today, very extreme. We've outgrown the
period, not all that long in the past, where women could not
own real estate or sign contracts. Women are extremely better off
today under Western law as opposed to Sharia law.
In other words, being a century or two ahead of their culture cannot be
ignored.
Ron at June 29, 2017 5:23 AM
> It's a difference in degree,
> not in kind.
No, that's just silly.
To seek meaningful commonalities in such profoundly distinct contexts is the work of a terribly lonely man... And a terribly provincial one.
In any case, and these cases are indeed disparate, sometimes a difference is so great as to constitute one of kind.
And I think distinction between an unemployably segregated and burkha'd woman in a country of Islamic fundamentalism —unlicensed to drive and unable to read— and a stripper in the United States donning the smallest possible covering to avoid arrest —between classes at the community college and driving the kid to Gramma's on work night— is certainly a difference of a kind.
The small-minded niggling that conflates these circumstances illuminates nothing.
☑ Team Amy
Crid at June 29, 2017 6:07 AM
How can the US be a century or two ahead when the US is only 239 years old and these cultures well predate that? People don't just happen to change their values over time.
Ben at June 29, 2017 6:34 AM
We apply local standards, passed by local governments voted in by locals. Here in central tx you can see plenty of nipples, and penises, out and about in lical parks. Other licals are stricter.
To call that a difference in degree from woman being owned is mindboggling.
Momof4 at June 29, 2017 6:58 AM
Other locals....
Momof4 at June 29, 2017 6:58 AM
In other words, being 12 or 13 centuries ahead of their culture cannot be ignored.
Fixed it for ya. Yer welcome.
I R A Darth Aggie at June 29, 2017 7:34 AM
Having a societal standard on gender-based display of nipples is not the same as having laws relegating women to second-class citizenship (forbidding them from driving or associating with non-family men, etc.).
Not all states require pasties, by the way. Some allow women to legally parade about topless. That most choose not to is an indication a freely-chosen societal standard, not state-mandated oppression.
Some states and municipalities allow strip clubs with full nudity. Others don't. But none of these political entities forbid women from driving, sitting on a bus with a man to whom she is not related, or speaking her mind in public.
Conan the Grammarian at June 29, 2017 8:49 AM
It is a difference in degree, but that said, I am glad I live where the degree swings in my favor.
NicoleK at June 29, 2017 10:02 AM
If it were a difference in degree, that would mean men were free to flop their penis out whenever and whereever they wanted. They cant-thats a fast-pass to the sex offender registry. Western culture is equally restrictive. In Islam, men are free and women are chattel.
Momof4 at June 30, 2017 1:24 AM
"Women still haven't gained parity with men, here."
That's funny.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 30, 2017 9:20 AM
Women still haven't gained parity with men, here.
I know, right?
They make up less than 5% of workplace deaths, they make nearly 120% of the pay for the same hours men work, they make up less than half the homeless, they are the minority of victims in LITERALLY every crime, they are the majority of offenders for all crimes against children yet less of them go to jail then men do, they are more likely to fail to pay child support, they commit almost 70% of all domestic violence, nearly 45% of all sexual assaults yet less than 5% of defendants incarcerated.
Even though men are the primary victims of domestic violence only 1 in over 2000 DV shelters takes men.
So, Ron, what are YOU doing to end this shameful discrimination against women?
lujlp at June 30, 2017 10:19 AM
Also Ron, the bikini may have been a scandal, but correct me if I am wrong, I dont recall reports of women being gang raped in public and then whipped for it, or being killed by their families for wearing one
lujlp at June 30, 2017 5:23 PM
Leave a comment