The "No Facelift!" Fiction That We're Not Supposed To Comment On
As I point out frequently, men evolved to prioritize women's looks. Sure, inner beauty counts; however:
We'd best accept the ugly reality: No man will turn his head to ogle a woman because she looks like the type to buy a turkey sandwich for a homeless man or read to the blind.There is a vast body of evidence indicating that men and women are biologically and psychologically different, and that what heterosexual men and women want in partners directly corresponds to these differences.
The features men evolved to go for in women--youth, clear skin, a symmetrical face and body, feminine facial features, an hourglass figure--are those indicating that a woman would be a healthy, fertile candidate to pass on a man's genes.
These preferences span borders, cultures, and generations, meaning yes, there really are universal standards of beauty. And while Western women do struggle to be slim, the truth is, women in all cultures eat (or don't) to appeal to "the male gaze." The body size that's idealized in a particular culture appears to correspond to the availability of food.
In cultures like ours, where you can't go five miles without passing a 7-Eleven and food is sold by the pallet-load at warehouse grocery stores, thin women are in. In cultures where food is scarce (like in Sahara-adjacent hoods), blubber is beautiful, and women appeal to men by stuffing themselves until they're slim like Jabba the Hut.
Men's looks matter to heterosexual women only somewhat. Most women prefer men who are taller than they are, with symmetrical features (a sign that a potential partner is healthy and parasite-free). But, women across cultures are intent on finding male partners with high status, power, and access to resources--which means a really short guy can add maybe a foot to his height with a private jet.
And, just like women who aren't very attractive, men who make very little money or are chronically out of work tend to have a really hard time finding partners. There is some male grumbling about this. Yet, while feminist journalists deforest North America publishing articles urging women to bow out of the beauty arms race and "Learn to love that woman in the mirror!", nobody gets into the ridiculous position of advising men to "Learn to love that unemployed guy sprawled on the couch!"
Because of the high priority men place on beauty, there's something of a beauty arms race -- and a struggle to keep your jowls from grazing your lap as you age, among other things.
The other day, Megyn Kelly had Robert Redford and Jane Fonda on the morning show she just started hosting, and she asked Fonda about her plastic surgery.
The world's panties collectively bunched.
But should they have? Virginia Postrel asks a very good question at Bloomberg: "Why must public figures pretend that 'aging gracefully' means accepting whatever nature doles out?"
Postrel said Megyn Kelly's question was legit -- Kelly just failed to follow through on throwing softballs that celebrities expect (via the power of their PR reps).
Postrel writes:
As a model of aging, Fonda is the opposite of Hugh Hefner, who died at 91 as a perpetual adolescent whose era had long passed. She is constantly reinventing herself. "She's always moving forward, and doesn't look back," Redford told Kelly. Fonda's physical transformation is part of that story. Yet even as she acknowledges her perfectly understandable professional and personal reasons for having cosmetic surgery she seems to regard it as sign of personal weakness.Kelly had the audacity to ask why. It's a good question. Why must public figures pretend that "aging gracefully" means accepting whatever nature doles out? Why can't cosmetic surgery be as morally neutral as makeup or hair dye? Why do we surround cosmetic surgery with obfuscations and outright lies?
When aging stars pretend that their youthful faces are merely the product of good personal habits, they aren't downplaying the importance of appearance or encouraging people to focus on more important things. They're doing exactly the opposite -- asserting their superiority to the aging plebes whose chins droop and foreheads crease. Fonda does have excellent posture, but no 80-year-old has a neck like that without the medical intervention she acknowledges but so many others deny.
People with taste and manners avoid the subjects of facelifts, dental implants, Hemorrhoids, sebaceous cysts and other unpleasent medical topics.
People in the entertainment business have to project an image. That is their job. No one wants to either see the sausage being made, or talk about it in an interview.
Too much plastic surgery and you end up a freak show on the internet. Too little or none at all, same result. (It is the *boy did you age badly* list)
The whole industry is superficial. Why you would think that these people should act pedestrian in an interview is the real question.
Isab at October 4, 2017 12:12 AM
"Why you would think that these people should act pedestrian in an interview is the real question."
Why you think it is not Megyn Kelly's job to ask actual questions is the real question.
Fonda has been open about her plastic surgery -- she discussed it and made it a topic of conversation.
Amy Alkon at October 4, 2017 7:09 AM
I think that people's reluctance to discuss plastic surgery (or even less invasive procedures) goes back to what you mention at the top of the post, Amy. Beauty is a sign of health and youth and fertility. If beauty is not natural, it's not really a sign of all of those desirable characteristics, is it? If a woman in her 60's has surgery that makes her look like she's still in her 40's, that's a bit of a fraud, isn't it? If that beautiful skin a a result of surgery (or peels and injections and other treatments), it's only the ILLUSION of youth and health, not ACTUAL youth and health.
Personally, I'm all for procedures, but I don't know that men would agree. I'm sure they'll start to pipe in here in a bit. You have guys who comment that they hate makeup, or implants, or whatever thing a woman is doing to make themselves more attractive. (I've worked in a strip club, and despite these claims, I can personally attest that even men who claim to hate "enhancements" are still emptying their wallets on the skinny girls with the highest, roundest boobs, ski-slope nose, and thousands of dollars worth of dental work.)
Several years ago I got a laser peel, and it made my husband REALLY uncomfortable. So now, I just don't discuss that type of stuff with him. But I've made it clear, all *this* takes work, dammit!
ahw at October 4, 2017 7:46 AM
Sixty-something women just do not look like Raquel Welch and Jane Fonda do.
It's find to acknowledge having some work to fight the worst ravages of time. But to work so hard to look like you're forty when you're sixty is pushing the bounds of vanity and sanity.
But we've become a dystopian society. Our grandmothers are trying to look and dress like our teenage daughters.
Conan the Grammarian at October 4, 2017 7:55 AM
**"She is constantly reinventing herself. She's always moving forward, and doesn't look back," Redford told Kelly.**
Smells like a cattle pen on a hot summer's day.
Not that it's unique. Just watch any "Making Of" short on any movie DVD for more examples. "Director X is brilliant, he's really very visual, and my co-actors are a sober, serious, brilliant and talented group who didn't blow anybody to get their jobs. Honest!"
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at October 4, 2017 7:58 AM
Imagine that you're a sixty something plastic (Jane Fonda, Raquel Welch, etc.) on the dating scene. All the men in your age bracket look like Robert Redford, aged and wrinkled. Of course, they don't want to date a women who looks sixty, so you feel you had to do some de-aging. But now you're stuck with choosing from the dating pool a man who looks his age while you look 20 years younger (cause the forty-something men are chasing younger women). There's a disconnect there.
I always thought it a credit to the Bushes that Barbara accepted getting older and looked her age while George didn't run around on her and acted, at least in public, like she was still the twenty-something he married years ago.
"Please don't retouch my wrinkles. It took me so long to earn them." ~ Anna Magnani
"This is the face of a 61-year-old woman. I am proud of every year and every wrinkle.” ~ Carly Florina
Conan the Grammarian at October 4, 2017 8:10 AM
Kelly should have asked Redford.
KateC at October 4, 2017 8:43 AM
Kelly should have asked Redford.
KateC at October 4, 2017 8:43 AM
While it's generally true that heterosexual men prefer attractive women, there's a lot of wiggle room here. There's a reason why most men are not constantly upgrading to the next 20-year-old, even when they can.
In my experience, as men age, they accept the trade-offs inherent to their own aging process. Most of the well-adjusted men I know are willing to trade sheer hotness for companionship, humor, human connection, and a partner who isn't a pain in the ass.
And no matter how ugly a woman is or broke a man is, there's someone willing to tap that.
MonicaP at October 4, 2017 9:41 AM
With her snakelike, detachable jawline, Megan Kelly --more than any TV newswoman I've ever met, including former wives-- calls to mind the folk expression "A blowjob waiting to happen."
Popular interest in her beliefs and political behavior is inexplicable.
Crid at October 4, 2017 11:25 AM
By "met" I meant 'seen on TV,' distracted because airplane ei-fi.
The ex was an error to grand for explication in this context.
Crid at October 4, 2017 11:28 AM
Nicely said, everyone!
Btw, Jimmy Durante, according to George Burns, dated a great many women but never cared what they looked like, because "to somebody, she's beautiful."
One reminder: Young, pretty women may or may not have affairs with rich men old enough to be their fathers, but they seldom want to MARRY them. Even rich men who fantasize about dating only women in their twenties are going to be rejected more and more often as the men get old. (Fictional but realistic example: Scarlett O'Hara was desperate enough to marry a much older man for money - Frank, that is - even when it meant unwanted babies, but even by the time he was dead and Rhett was no longer twice her age, he was STILL practically old enough to be her father, so it's no wonder it took her several more years to "love" him. Granted, the movie does NOT make it clear that he's 17 years older!)
Finally, when it comes to keeping a marriage going, I suspect that female beauty doesn't have quite the power that it used to in the days before photography and easy access to magazines, etc., because any man knows that there's always some prettier porn star out there he can download in no time. Besides, as the Mayflower Madam said: "Show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I'll show you a man who's tired of sleeping with her."
lenona at October 4, 2017 11:49 AM
Part of that interest can be ascribed to her physical attractiveness. The rest to the fact that she has a doctorate-level degree (JD) which implies intelligence. An attractive, intelligent woman will always have an audience.
However, I've met many lawyers in my life who belied possession of a Juris Doctor degree as a measure of intelligence. In fact, at this point in my life, I'm not sure that a law degree by itself signifies anything admirable.
Conan the Grammarian at October 4, 2017 12:08 PM
Feminine features are strong indicators of female hormones and low testosterone. These are exactly what a man wants if he wants to have children. These characteristics include smaller facial features (nose, jaw, brow ridge), higher hip/waist ratio, smooth skin, lack of body hair, fat on the butt. A slim figure is an indicator of youth and that the girl has not had kids yet. Males not turned on and even obsessed with feminine features conveniently removed themselves from the gene pool.
As to aging, some people get lucky, some not. My father was still quite handsome and had good posture and ideal weight even in his eighties. But some people look like hell at 60. Re plastic surgery there is something to be said for aging gracefully and not pretending you are 25 when you are 80, especially by the clothes you wear.
cc at October 4, 2017 1:37 PM
I told myself at 40 that when I got to sixty I might spring for a bit of wrinkle removal but now that I am slightly past that age what I really want is a new pickup truck. I guess you could say my priorities have changed.
I think the new truck will last a lot longer and give me far greater personal satisfaction.
I suspect most women married to a good man find a lot of other things that they would rather spend that money on.
One thing that really helps the looks as you age is a good diet and a lifestyle deviod of booze, cigarettes, and deliberate tanning.
I not longer have a personal need to be thought good looking or impress anyone. And my livelihood doesn't depend on it.
Isab at October 4, 2017 3:56 PM
That truck: Bluetooth to the music on the cellphone? Leather seats?
Oh, no reason, really... Just curious.
Crid at October 4, 2017 5:00 PM
That truck: Bluetooth to the music on the cellphone? Leather seats?
Oh, no reason, really... Just curious.
Crid at October 4, 2017 5:00 PM
Probably not leather unless they are desperate to get rid of a 2017 tricked out model at a price I am willing to pay.
Bluetooth seems to be standard these days.
What I really want is the advanced towing packages that integrate everything, give you a back camera, and practically park the trailer for you.
Improved safety and gas milage is primarily what I am after.
I also want a crew cab so there is plenty of room for my friends when we carpool long distance to matches,
Isab at October 4, 2017 5:31 PM
Halle Berry and her ex Eric Benet is a perfect example of that.
Sixclaws at October 4, 2017 5:31 PM
In fact, at this point in my life, I'm not sure that a law degree by itself signifies anything admirable.
It seems to mostly indicate the ability to slog through endless, tedious work toward a goal. Tenacity if not intelligence.
MonicaP at October 4, 2017 6:00 PM
In fact, at this point in my life, I'm not sure that a law degree by itself signifies anything admirable.
It seems to mostly indicate the ability to slog through endless, tedious work toward a goal. Tenacity if not intelligence.
MonicaP at October 4, 2017 6:00 PM
I know a lot of poor lawyers, in the monetary sense. Supply has far outstripped demand, and technology is impacting a lot of the jobs in law.
What kind of lawyers and law students do you think people with gender studies and other worthles degrees make?
The answer usually is; no one you would want representing you.
I actually started law school in 1979. Went back and finished it in 1997. The decline in quality of the 1L class was quite evident at two somewhat similarly ranked law schools. The decline only accelerated over the last twenty years.
Isab at October 4, 2017 6:19 PM
It isn't just JD degrees Conan. Smart people do some of the dumbest things. Many of them are so persuasive and convincing they can convince themselves to do things no natural idiot would attempt. While intelligence is helpful it is also insufficient.
Ben at October 4, 2017 7:28 PM
If it makes you feel any better, they make questionable MBA students as well.
Conan the Grammarian at October 4, 2017 7:32 PM
nobody gets into the ridiculous position of advising men to "Learn to love that unemployed guy sprawled on the couch!"
_______________________________
Well...yes and no.
It's called MGTOW.
That is, men who belong to that group encourage other men not to spend time doing ANYTHING to please women if it doesn't get the men exactly what they want - and a lot more.
Therefore, so long as men don't mind not being able to get as many one-night stands (or cheap hookers) as they might want, they're encouraged to take lower-wage jobs and give up on the idea of any long-term relationships, since, in theory, they're thus guaranteed far less grief and stress in their lives.
lenona at October 5, 2017 1:14 PM
MGTOWs have given up on women Lenona. They typically don't have many one night stands or hookers even. It is a lifestyle of despair and despondence. Essentially nihilistic. I think you were thinking of MRAs.
Ben at October 5, 2017 6:35 PM
Not really. I suspect most MRAs manage (and choose) to find wives and LT girlfriends, if they're not poor. Or at least a large percentage do. Examples: the late, British, Angry Harry (if anyone knows his real name, please tell), Bernard Chapin, Dean Esmay, plus plenty of conservatives who don't CALL themselves MRAs but do a pretty good job of pleasing MRAs, intentionally or not. Example: Rush Limbaugh.
And, for what it's worth, Paul Elam was married and divorced three times. (If he has a girlfriend right now, I don't know about it.)
lenona at October 6, 2017 1:12 PM
Ok Lenona. Then you are just muddleheaded as usual.
Ben at October 7, 2017 7:40 AM
Explain, please?
Btw, here's another one - the blogger/author who goes by "Ian Ironwood." He's been married for years and has three kids, I think. (His daughter should be in her teens by now.)
What's weird is that while he's brave enough to write for pages and pages on many subjects, to the point where his own fans tell him to stop being so long-winded, it's been three years since he was supposed to finish his Red Pill Primer for Boys...but the last chapter, "Consent," still isn't there! Bizarre.
http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/p/the-red-pill-primer-for-boys.html
Besides, what both MRAs and MGTOWS don't like to acknowledge is that maybe at least a quarter of single American women in their 30s who don't have children don't WANT children. So, many of them believe that by shunning fatherhood, they can scare all women into becoming more compliant. Not gonna happen.
Of course, men who WANT long-term relationships usually understand and accept the fact that few people now, male or female, are willing to marry someone who only makes minimum wage. (Even "Cinderella" isn't really a rags-to-riches story, when you think about it - she was BORN into a rich family and would not have gotten the prince's attention without the right trappings - and upper-class manners.) Even a rich person can get hit by a car and become penniless as a result, so it's important that the healthy spouse be able to support the formerly rich spouse.
lenona at October 7, 2017 9:19 AM
My point was that I find it pretty hard to believe that MGTOW could have gotten increasingly popular if they were about COMPLETELY avoiding sex relations with women. Practically the only time men are willing and able to do that is when it's for religious reasons. So it would seem likely that MRAs want to marry when they can find the right women, while MGTOW are willing to settle for sex with strangers - but not less than that.
Not to mention that, as David Futrelle pointed out (prompted by someone else on Reddit), members of MGTOW don't seem to be able to stop talking about women anyway.
http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2016/05/04/redditor-asks-mgtows-why-theyre-not-talking-about-their-cool-hobbies-they-throw-a-fit/
lenona at October 8, 2017 12:06 PM
I watched the clip of the interview. I don't take Fonda or Kelly too seriously, so I think Postrel's analysis overintellectualizes the question Kelly posed and the interview as a whole. Kelly was asking a ratings-seeking, nosy, overly personal question. Gossip websites love speculation on, denials of, or details on plastic surgery procedures, especially from the stars themselves!
Jane at October 13, 2017 12:50 PM
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