Saying Unacceptably Unfeminist Things
Being an adult, to me, in part means accepting nuances in people -- not needing everybody to be in perfect agreement with you on all things.
I like Dr. Jen Gunter for a lot of reasons -- she goes after the ridiculous crap Gwyneth Paltrow puts out, she puts out valuable medical advice, and I like her spirit.
However, I think it's a mistake to deny that it's a problem when one person -- whether the husband or the wife -- gains a bunch of weight and becomes less attractive to their partner.
And actually, it's especially a problem when a woman gains weight like that, as male sexuality is highly visually driven and men prioritize looks in a partner in a way women do not.
This is not a statement that is acceptable in feminist circles -- as if the notion that men *should* be attracted to you for what's on the inside is a realistic notion.
Here's the tweet from Dr. Jen Gunter:
Impotence can have various causes, and he's making a leap here.
But the point I'm making remains.
If a man dumps his wife because she's put on lots of weight, he's "shallow"; if a women dumps her husband because he's out of work or unambitious, she's "prudent".
Snoopy at April 20, 2018 3:17 AM
It seems that in modern feminist circles, the husband should do whatever it takes to keep the wife happy but he should be happy with her no matter what. In a healthy relationship both partners should do their best to stay physically and mentally healthy and attractive for each other.
Mike S at April 20, 2018 4:27 AM
The comments below that tweet can be summed up in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDtpxEQFyts
And white knights too. So.Much.Respect.
Sixclaws at April 20, 2018 5:27 AM
Honey, if all you have going for you in a marriage when you are 22 is a slim figure and smooth skin, when you hit 60 you ain’t got nuttin.
And if your husband is out doing skanky young tramps at 60 it is probably because he is filthy rich or he is financially and personally irresponsible.
Plenty of older men are smart enough to realize that a 20 something has no interest in him other than his wallet.
Marriage is an economic partnership. A way to build assets, combine resources and provide for childen.
It is not a particularly good way to get a permenant hot sex partner. Like a Ferarri, those kinds of marriages are beyond most people’s means.
Pointing out that especially when you are in your sixties, a majority of women under 30 are going to be more sexually attractive than you are, is kind of intuitively obvious, and it also has little or nothing to do with why older men by and large stay married to older women.
Isab at April 20, 2018 5:28 AM
I don't think we are talking about 60 Isab. This sounded more like 30 to me.
Ben at April 20, 2018 6:14 AM
I don't think we are talking about 60 Isab. This sounded more like 30 to me.
Ben at April 20, 2018 6:14 AM
I take exception to the whole idea that parties outside of a marriage get to determine when you are an acceptable weight, and an acceptable level of fitness to be sexually attracive to your spouse.
And also that that should be a primary consideration in a marriage.
I also take exception to the idea that sex is the basis of marriage and that society should judge women and men on some sort age appropriate sliding scale in determining whether you are living up to your end of a contract that they are not a party to, and this applies to Amy, you, Jennifer Gunter, and the feminists.
I can admire the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work that someone like Jane Fonda has done to maintain her illusion of attractiveness, but that is all it is, an illusion,, since she would lose out in any kind of objective hotness competition to almost any 18 year old, if both were naked and without makeup.
Thats all I am saying.
Isab at April 20, 2018 6:32 AM
Wife says the husband when he goes to the doctor, "Maybe have the doctor give you those pills that give you erections?" He brings back diet pills for her.
Ba-dum-bump!
bkmale at April 20, 2018 6:43 AM
One of the best cures for male impotence?
A hot, willing, 18-21 year-old. It doesn't matter if she (or he) in it for the money or the sugar daddy or whatever.
I'll say it again. IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
You can argue all you want about good or bad, right or wrong. That right there works.
Brad Kelley at April 20, 2018 6:49 AM
I understand your point Isab and I don't disagree with it. But sex is a part of marriage and for younger people a very important part. But my take on this was people who've only been married for 1-2 years. The wife has one kid, puts on 50 pounds, and then complains 'he should love me for what is on the inside'. Well, bull. Life doesn't work that way. If her spouse had a good job, quit, and decided to watch TV for the rest of his life she would divorce him in a heartbeat. Loving him for what is on the inside isn't part of the deal.
As for society judging things when they aren't party to the agreement, I agree with you. But why do you think there is even an agreement. Every time I've heard that on the inside crap she has already divorced him. Calling him impotent and heartless are just part of lashing out. As an individual I can recognize a toxic person and avoid them. Don't hang around with the bitter single moms. Nothing good comes of it for either gender.
Ben at April 20, 2018 7:31 AM
> But my take on this was people who've only been
> married for 1-2 years. The wife has one kid, puts
> on 50 pounds, and then complains 'he should love
> me for what is on the inside'.
And then as soon as the couple separates, she loses the 50 pounds again.
Snoopy at April 20, 2018 7:45 AM
While it is true that keeping the weight off is hard and moreso for women than men, this is certainly something that does affect the sex of the couple. The problem I see here is that women often think that once they catch the guy their job is done and they can let themselves go and not be sweet and not do things for him while at the same time expecting a lot from their husband. While it is hard to stay slim it is a huge gift a woman can give to her husband, to look sexy--I'm not talking about plastic surgery or obsessive exercise, just reasonable care. Shouldn't both parties want to make the other happy?
cc at April 20, 2018 8:48 AM
I appreciate your comments here, Isab.
Also, everyone, let's remember that if a man wants two kids or more, he really can't expect his wife to be skinny when she's 40 or older just because there ARE mothers born before 1960 who stayed thin - likely from smoking, for one. Just because it should not be considered liberating for women to allow a lifestyle for themselves that will shorten their lives, like obesity, doesn't mean it's always avoidable.
Besides, I remember an article (about Robert Bly and his followers) that reflected what Bly said - that men cannot be good role models for their sons if they're competing for the same women.
And yes, of course women are not entitled to a middle-class lifestyle or to be housewives all their lives just because that's the lifestyle they were born into. When a man's down on his luck, his wife should be at least willing to work for pay, even if that turns out not to be practical. If, however, he's doing a 180 and refuses, long-term, to do nothing but take, financially, I'd be pretty alarmed - what if he has a gambling habit and is about to lose all their property unless she leaves?
lenona at April 20, 2018 12:50 PM
> Also, everyone, let's remember that if a man wants
> two kids or more, he really can't expect his wife
> to be skinny when she's 40
https://www.todaysparent.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Whats-Your-Excuse.jpg
> what if he has a gambling habit and is about to
> lose all their property unless she leaves?
What if she has an overeating habit and is about to weigh 300 lbs unless he leaves?
Snoopy at April 20, 2018 2:55 PM
"I take exception to the whole idea that parties outside of a marriage get to determine when you are an acceptable weight, and an acceptable level of fitness to be sexually attracive to your spouse."
You're shooting at the wrong target.
Parties outside the marriage are pointing out the DENIAL put in place by couples who know intimately that something is going wrong but cannot talk or do anything about it.
That belly wasn't attractive in high school, it isn't now, and to pretend it isn't a negative is simply denial.
By the way - are doctors one of those people you take exception to?
Radwaste at April 20, 2018 3:39 PM
" keeping the weight off is hard and moreso for women than men"
Got any empirical data to support that statement cc?
I struggle every day to maintain my boyish figure. Don't know why you assume it is any easier for me than for a woman.
Jay at April 20, 2018 4:49 PM
What's my excuse Snoopy? I don't have the friken time. Are you as buff as she is? If not then what is your excuse?
Jay, don't kid yourself. Yes some men have a harder time keeping the weight off. But it is no secret that testosterone really helps with keeping the weight down. For the majority it is much easier for men to lose weight than women. Note neither of us said easy. Just easier.
Ben at April 20, 2018 7:11 PM
"since [Jane Fonda] would lose out in any kind of objective hotness competition to almost any 18 year old, if both were naked and without makeup."
Isab, the probability of that assertion being false is directly proportionate to the 18 year old's BMI.
nemesis at April 20, 2018 8:49 PM
since [Jane Fonda] would lose out in any kind of objective hotness competition to almost any 18 year old, if both were naked and without makeup."
Isab, the probability of that assertion being false is directly proportionate to the 18 year old's BMI.
nemesis at April 20, 2018 8:49 PM
Ill take that bet. First off all historical standards of beauty have been very much sitiuational. Chubby has been hot more often than rail thin because the undernouished often can’t conceive. Ever see a Reubens painting?
I’m also betting that Jane Fonda looks like hell when you peel off all rhe makeup, hair extentions, dyes and spray on cement holding everything in place. Barberella was fifty years ago.
But you do have a point. Cameras, film and airbrushing have pushed both male and female standards of beauty into fairy tale territory.
And there is a reason we refer to both men and women who slavishly follow these superficial personal appearance trends as high maintenence.
Im not in the maket to reproduce, way past that point in life, but what I find attractive in men, and what my husband finds attractive in women is between us.
Be approachable, have good manners, good hygeine, and be nice. Stop worrying about the large percentage of potential mates that arent going to find you attractive no matter what you do.
What most men want is a drama free life. Most sensible women too.
Then for a laugh, go watch Mrs Maizel.
Isab at April 21, 2018 5:46 AM
To my earlier point about staying slim: testosterone encourages men to exercise because it feels good. At the gym (even the YMCA) I see about 3 or 4 men to every woman there. Out jogging it is still more men. In organized sports for adults it is almost all men (like softball leagues and pick-up basketball and soccer leagues and groups of men biking). It is simply that men have too much energy and sports feel good. Such exercise helps keep you slim. What I see among 50 year olds is that many men have a pot belly but are otherwise not in bad shape but there are many women who have become shapeless and even have trouble walking. I see almost no men who have trouble walking, even at 300 lbs--again it is the muscle mass advantage.
cc at April 21, 2018 9:34 AM
You beat me to it, Ben. Thanks. Also, plenty of people may do their own housework, but even that won't keep the weight off, always, and by the time the work is done, one might be too tired to go to the gym.
And again, becoming obese is not always avoidable. I know a man who's 5' 10"; he weighs just under 300 lbs and walks with a cane. Why? He has type 2 diabetes and the medications made him gain far more weight than he had 20 years ago. (He's not on insulin, I think, but I don't remember all the details.)
Not to mention another man I know who was losing patience with his mother because she had been a drama queen all her life and had become seriously delusional; she thought certain public figures were trying to kill her and she was making trouble for everyone because of her belief. I pointed out that it wasn't her fault she was ill and that he wouldn't desert her if she had diabetes problems that were getting in everyone's way, so what's the difference?
lenona at April 22, 2018 1:05 PM
What is the difference Lenona, annoyance and heartache. Even when someone is dying of diabetes and hospitalized you just go in every once in a while, have a nice conversation, and then you leave. You don't actually have to do much. Mental illness is usually quite different. You can't have the nice conversations because they aren't really there anymore. Often you can't even tell if they are happy you are there or not. After all they are insane. It is a very different thing to see a stranger looking out of the eyes of someone you know and love.
And yep on the fit stuff. I'm all for getting in better shape and eating well. But there are realistic limits. Snoopy's pic is what I imagine Insufficient Poison looks like. If I recall correctly she is a fitness trainer. But +90% of guys don't look that fit. And guys are more fit on average than gals. So is it possible, yes. But it isn't realistic or reasonable.
I guess some day they will come out with a pill that will rework our entire bodies without effort and we will all be beautiful. And that is how the zombie apocalypse starts.
Ben at April 22, 2018 8:00 PM
Um, Ben, where did I say anything about hospital-bound people? I didn't.
I was talking about whether it would be justifiable to leave a spouse for being diabetic - or not to be at least somewhat protective of a parent who is still living independently and who SEEMS rational much of the time, even to friends - but who isn't.
lenona at April 23, 2018 8:39 AM
To put it another way: If your adult CHILD were seriously mentally ill and very unpleasant, you'd still want to make sure, at least, that that child is not homeless or in danger, right?
lenona at April 23, 2018 5:01 PM
The key to staying slim is simple: Stop eating so much food that you gain weight. Your body does not transmute oxygen into lard. It's 50 years since I graduated from high school come June. I weighed 130 pounds (and I'm 5'11) then and I weigh 130 pounds now. I eat very little compared to just about anyone I know, just enough to maintain my weight. I've watched just about everyone I've ever known pack on the pounds. I get all sorts of great clothing from my friends as they expand over the years. My skin doesn't bag since it's never been streched out. I only date women who can fit into my 29" waist pants. I can still fit into a Formula car or a 17" airline seat with ease.
I was watching Trump, Macron and their wives on the news tonight. Melania is looking porky compared to Macron's slim wife. I have a friend who's British, and his wife is French and about my age. She's just as slim as Macron's wife. We know the French like to eat, yet the women (in general of course) stay slim and attractive into old age. Why is that?
Here in the USA, regardless of race or national origin, the kids are fat, the teens are fat, young adults are fat, and the rest of 'em are fat too. Why is that?
Stop eating so much goddamn food!
Jay J. Hector at April 23, 2018 9:43 PM
Lenona,
1. The obligations from a parent to a child and the obligations from a child to a parent are not the same. This isn't an equal relationship.
2. You made the claim that mental health and physical health should be treated the same. So I gave an example why they aren't treated the same. As for the specific person you were referencing, you didn't provide enough information to make any sort of decision on it. Is the guy an ungrateful child, maybe. Has the mother used up all reasonable resources and become an excessive burden, maybe. From what you wrote I can't tell. But on the general topic of dementia vs. diabetes these two diseases impose vastly different burdens on 3rd party people. That is why people respond to them differently.
On the mentally disturbed adult child, wanting may be all you can do. Lots of mentally ill homeless people have living parents. But even if they want to keep taking care of their kids the fact remains they are adults and their parents can no longer take care of them without the child's consent.
These are hard and unpleasant situations that often have no good answers.
Ben at April 24, 2018 6:39 AM
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