Naked Entitlement
I've blogged about this before: the most bizarre form of forced labor painted as a virtue -- the notion that it's bigotry to refuse sex to anyone. Well, perhaps that's unfair, as I think those who advocate this are fine with anyone turning down a heterosexual man. (In fact, you probably get bonus points for turning him down if he's White and Anglo-Saxon.)
However, as I noted, if you're a lesbian who does not want to have sex with any person who has a penis, hello, Captain Obvious! You are not a bigot. You are...a lesbian!
Maggie McNeill tweeted about this from a post of hers in 2018:
I'm really pretty damned sick of social engineers claiming that it's "bigoted" or "sexist" or whatever for men (or lesbians) not to socially date (ie, have sex with) women of some particular group (such as older women, obese women, trans women, kinky women, etc).
It seems we are suffering more widespread cult-think than ever, probably because of social media -- which isn't to say social media is necessarily bad.
But just as schools are instilling programs that are all about saying white = bad in the name of "anti-racism," kids need classes in critical thinking more than ever.
YEs, and the ones who are all made about lesbians saying no are ironically the ones who sing loudest about consent and gay rights and anti-conversion therapy.
NicoleK at December 29, 2020 11:45 PM
" social engineers claiming that it's "bigoted" or "sexist" or whatever for men (or lesbians) not to socially date women of some particular group"
It seems Wokies have no standards at all, like me in my early years. But somehow they make it less fun.
Spiderfall at December 29, 2020 11:51 PM
It's been going on for a while, and I believe that the rampant trans movement inspired it.
Transmen, particularly those who don't really look like men and have decided to retain their female body parts, have discovered that the transition has drastically reduced their dating pool to the point where it almost doesn't exist.
So, instead of resigning themselves to this as the cost of making the transition, they decided to shame gay men who will not date transmen.
For a taste of some of the ugly comments directed at gay men, check out this page.
I note this with some cynical, detached amusement. It just seems like no matter what gay men do (especially white gay men), they are still the most hated segment of any population (save pedophiles). It just comes at us from different directions. Even as society became more accepting of gay marriage, the LGBT groups decided that white gay men were so privileged, that they shouldn't hold leadership positions in their organizations.
Yes, very privileged. That's us. We were the segment of the population most ravaged by the AIDS epidemic. Over five times more likely to be the victims of hate crimes than lesbians.
So even as the hate directed towards us diminishes from the heterosexuality community, it's now coming at us from the LGBT community.
Patrick at December 30, 2020 3:04 AM
This is the same thing I've been saying about health care. Once receipt of services (sexual, medical, etc.) becomes a legally-acknowledged right, withholding those services, for any reason, becomes a violation of someone's civil rights and is actionable in the courts.
SJWs throw terms like "rights" and "bigotry" around casually and carelessly. It is not the right of any transgender person to be sexually serviced by any other person. Nor is it bigotry to have a preference about one's sexual partners and their physical attributes.
Conan the Grammarian at December 30, 2020 5:45 AM
“kids need classes in critical thinking more than ever.“
The problem with that statement is the left twists language. They see / redefined teaching Critical Race Theory as critical thinking. So blanket calls for critical thinking will get twisted into more CRT.
Joe j at December 30, 2020 5:47 AM
Conan:
You know, I was going to make one more post to that effect, but you said it better than I would have, and on the heels of my post. So, it's better that I didn't.
And I was discussing this very topic in response to this ad I saw on Twitter, bemoaning the fact that straight men generally do not date transwomen.
Note in the lower left corner it says "Trans Rights Campaign," as if it's a right to be dated.
And just like is done with gay men, straight men are being accused of bigotry. Preferring not to date a particular type and actively hating someone are two different things.
Patrick at December 30, 2020 6:29 AM
> coming at us from the LGBT
Yeah… It's a real problem when some self-selected minority population decides that their personal fulfillment, sexual or otherwise, is the responsibility of some larger society… Which has better things to worry about.
> the notion that it's bigotry
> to refuse sex to anyone.
Honestly, now… Has anyone here actually encountered this animal in the wild? These sound like freak-of-the-morning tales from social media, always eager to stir resentment and summon clicks. I've seen the other wokey stupidities with people I know, especially the ethnic and racial ones, but not the one that says refusing sexual contact is bigotry. There's no woman of my acquaintance who wouldn't respond by saying 'Fine, call me a bigot.' (…Presumably. Not gonna try it on them to be sure.) And the men? Fergeddaboudit.
> But somehow they make it less fun.
More to the point, you grew out of it.
Crid at December 30, 2020 8:21 AM
"Honestly, now… Has anyone here actually encountered this animal in the wild?"
I doubt it. I think this is more of a phenomenon on the internet in shitty think-piece essays. Unless it's a real thing in the gay community, or maybe with weirdo kids who were born in the early 2000's.
Patrick mentioned trans men demanding that gay men date them. Honestly, I'd assumed the pressure was coming from trans WOMEN demanding that lesbians date them. I'm not real in touch with the trans community or the gay community, though. There are plenty of butch lesbians out here, but they don't want to be dudes.
ahw at December 30, 2020 8:42 AM
I recall having this discussion with Ppen several years ago. She/he implied that you have a right to sex, while I argued that making that a right, implied that someone else had a duty to provide it to you.
This was one of the many tells in Ppen’s posts that made me think he/she was trans.
Even without the real world examples of people who actually practice this, when the principle is extended to other *so called rights* I find the whole argument dangerous to individual liberty.
Isab at December 30, 2020 8:44 AM
I don't know whether Ppen was trans or whatever, but s/he had pretty serious mental health issues, IIRC.
ahw at December 30, 2020 8:58 AM
Where IS PPen?
AHW, it started with the Lesbians... they've been complaining about it on the Gender Critical forums for many years, but the movement has gotten braver and been after the gays a few years, too. Don't worry, cis men... they won't forget you! They will soon be convincing you that sucking ladydick is totally not gay.
NicoleK at December 30, 2020 9:08 AM
“Where IS PPen?”
I suspect the mental health issues won. Could be wrong. I often am.
Isab at December 30, 2020 9:24 AM
Isab:
I wouldn't be anxious to claim a right to sex. Should that idea actually be implemented, I shudder to imagine what sort of shopworn government employee would be sent my way to allow me to exercise my right. Would I at least be allowed to choose from a catalog? Would this be part of some universal health care program?
"If you like your sex worker, you can keep your sex worker."
Or maybe by the time this "right" is passed into law, it will fulfilled with robots. Yes, we will soon have our own government-issued sex robots.
Regarding Ppen's stance, there is a right to have sex. You're free to have sex with any adult who will have it with you.
But there is no right to sex, as if that obligated someone to give it to you. The transgendered have a right to date, but not a right to be dated.
Patrick J Colliano at December 30, 2020 9:25 AM
> I think this is more of a
> phenomenon on the internet in
> shitty think-piece essays.
✓
> Unless it's a real thing in
> the gay community
Despite a sort of smirking satisfaction from seeing him schooled so minutely in the nuances of this kind of cultural breeze, there's no doubt: Patrick's complaint is genuine, whatever the magnitude of challenge to him… Which might be mere irritation, or might occasionally become some deeper social discomfort.
But for most everyone else in the country, the social media responses are as silly as the noise-makers who summon them. This is too idiotic to cause genuine distress. Specifically: We don't need to get all Mcmartin-y & panicked about it.
On the other hand—
> or maybe with weirdo kids who
> were born in the early 2000's.
That's it exactly, the madness is already underway. The milk cartons have now taught two generations of parents to raise their children in delusional bogeyman naivete about the threats to their well-being… And without a real-world understanding of life's pressures, the young will let their imaginations (and social influences) spin them up into idiocies.
We should ALL watch our boundaries, because mortal stupidity is contagious.
> one of the many tells in Ppen’s
> posts that made me think he/she
> was trans.
After you made a suggestion of it (or it might have been one other of Amy's blog visitors), every word from Ppen's comments was a tell. Theretofore, he/she had seemed like a guy with some feminine fascinations… Which may in fact have been the case.
Crid at December 30, 2020 12:27 PM
Statler: Do you think Crid has an interesting point?
Waldorf: Yes. And it wouldn't show if he wore a hat!
Both: BLUUUH-HUH-HUH-HUH-HUH!
Still, in keeping with Crid's observation, this article points out that only 22% of all Americans are actually on Twitter. And 80% of the content is generated by 10% of that 22%.
Patrick at December 30, 2020 1:12 PM
"Honestly, now… Has anyone here actually encountered this animal in the wild?"
I doubt it. I think this is more of a phenomenon on the internet in shitty think-piece essays. Unless it's a real thing in the gay community, or maybe with weirdo kids who were born in the early 2000's.
_______________________________
Well said, both of you. What people say online is NOT necessarily what they'd say in real life; most of us have self-control and good manners in adulthood. Besides, I know at least two trans women who never seem to talk about anything deeply personal, nor do I ask them to.
However, just because adults are free to engage in sex with any consenting adult, or to refuse, does not make it POLITE, per se, to explain why, even when asked. Melania likely would never have married HIM if he'd been poor (or even slept with him), but back then, at least, she was smart enough not to say that.
More in a sec...
Lenona at December 30, 2020 1:25 PM
In the same vein, Miss Manners wrote, in 1985 (in response to a woman writer asking how to say no politely):
"A lady does not give reasons for not being accessible to a particular gentleman. She doesn`t explain why she won`t go out with him, she doesn`t explain why she won`t marry him and she doesn`t explain why she won`t do anything in between.
"The very notion that every lady would yield, if she didn`t have a compelling reason not to, is insulting. However, the rule against explaining is not made for the convenience of ladies so much as it is for the protection of gentlemen. They may think they want to hear why a particular lady is turning them down, but they are mighty unhappy when they do."
______________________________________
On top of that (and Ppen may or may not have been careless in her phrasing, since many people are), any adult SHOULD know what the writers of a certain centuries-old document knew; there's a big difference between the right to PURSUE happiness and the right to happiness itself. The same goes for love, sex, marriage, and how you're going to make a living.
(Any woman, even today, has the right to DREAM of being a full-time housewife and mother, starting at 18, but even in the 19th century, men were perfectly free not to date any woman they suspected would not be a good choice - so even then, women had to find very subtle ways of pursuing men - or lose.)
Lenona at December 30, 2020 1:48 PM
Of course, when you're the one who's being turned down, it's beyond rude to make nasty accusations or entitled demands, even if you're not referring to an individual. But if you are...that's even worse.
"What do you mean, you won't have sex with ME? We can use disease protection if you want, so what the hell is the matter with YOU? What other excuse is there to say no?"
Sound familiar?
Lenona at December 30, 2020 2:39 PM
Trans people like to pretend that thinking it makes it so, but at the same time they often don't even go through with the surgery. Bruce Jenner, for example, still has his penis and still wants sex with women. A woman looking at him sees a very feminized and strange looking person who is still physically a male. To get an idea, just google "shemale" with your search filters off. It is horrifying. Sorry if any of you actually did the search. If they want to have sex with a gay woman, the penis is a turn off. If they want to have sex with a hetero woman, the feminism is a turn off. If they want sex with a hetero man, the penis and the square jaw are a turn off. etc. Every person's sexual preference is jarred by what they see. Same for a XX male trans.
Sexual attraction is strongly moderated by pheromones that we can't even smell. The smell of the woman turns the man on and vice versa. For a trans person, they can't fake these pheromones. So the chemistry (literally) is wrong.
When it comes to sexual preference, the LBGTQ community says gays are born that way and can't just change their minds but also claim that for everyone else it is just an opinion and you should be able to date and have sex with a trans person like you choose what movie to see. Of course consistency is not a strong suit of the Woke.
cc at December 30, 2020 2:52 PM
Why ask why?
One of the more insidious traps people use is "I just wanna know why!"
No, they don't just want to know why. They just want to hear your reasons so they can try to knock them down.
Patrick at December 30, 2020 2:57 PM
I always found it odd how Ppen would often come to the correct answer intuitively, and then to support her conclusion she would present lots of evidence that disproved it. I know a number of times she thought I was attacking her when I was just trying to figure out what the heck was she was actually trying to say.
"Honestly, now… Has anyone here actually encountered this animal in the wild?" ~Crid
Yes. But no there are not many. I forget what the national population estimates were but I have a gut feeling it was around 50k.
"Don't worry, cis men... they won't forget you! They will soon be convincing you that sucking ladydick is totally not gay." ~NicoleK
They have been for decades NicoleK. Cis men, and especially white cis men, have already checked out. You can say whatever you want. Doesn't mean anyone will listen.
Also cis men's opposition to gay things may be genetic. Dunno. But it really hits people at a pretty deep level. Women it looks like you can convince to some extent on that stuff. Men you can get to say all kinds of things. But when presented with real stuff they tend to go violent really fast.
"So even as the hate directed towards us diminishes from the heterosexuality community, it's now coming at us from the LGBT community." ~Patrick
You are right and I feel for you Patrick. For whatever that is worth. I don't know if you are seeing the same stuff I am but it looks to me like millennials are starting to turn on homosexuals. Most of us are having kids and starting families. Too much stuff like the pedophile drag queens in the libraries are burning bridges that took a long time to build.
Ben at December 30, 2020 3:04 PM
I know that trans people aren't allowed to marry, vote, own property, travel across state lines, start their own businesses, and that they have to drink from separate water fountains, but this is the last straw.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at December 30, 2020 3:36 PM
> it's beyond rude to make nasty
But entitlement seems to be all that the wokies have going on in their lives. Having never created anything of value, they don't understand why people who can make things happen don't simply, y'know, give them whatever they ask for instantly with no further discussion. They don't know about study and apprenticeship and financing and team-building and on and on.> accusations or entitled demands
The other day Rob K Henderson cited this great line from Joan Didion on an earlier generation of petulant whiners:
(Emphasis mine.) Substitute your own choice of newer bad influences… Social media, parental coddling, student debt....And of course, that 'feed-back of self-doubt' is today available to anyone on the planet, directly beamed to the intimacy of a purse or pants pocket, unmediated, at the speed of light. Orion comes to mind, as when he/she accuses me of "bigotry" or harasses Coney about whatever lunacy can be dreamed up in the moment. He/she watches American media and thinks that's how our culture works.
…And is as mistaken as the wokies.
Crid at December 30, 2020 5:43 PM
> Yes.
Someone has affirmed to you, with eye contact, that (for example) women should date F->M trans men whether or not they want to?
Crid at December 30, 2020 5:46 PM
However, just because adults are free to engage in sex with any consenting adult, or to refuse, does not make it POLITE, per se, to explain why, even when asked.
_______________________________________
And, it's true that sometimes one's preferences really can't be discreetly hidden - here's one well-known example, from the pen of Aaron McGruder:
https://www.gocomics.com/boondocks/2001/06/19
SEMI-SPOILER
I assume things haven't changed much in the new generation, with SOME black male celebrities, anyway.
BUT...there's still a big difference between not dating people you see regularly and shunning them, even if you don't know you're doing it. Common courtesy means making the people you work with feel welcome, even if it feels awkward at times.
I can't find it right now, but I heard of a blind boy who, as a new student at a school, rode the school bus - and no one would ever sit with him, since they didn't know how to start talking to him. He was polite enough not to complain to anyone. But, that only made everyone assume he didn't mind being friendless. Of course he minded. (There may have been more details as to why he didn't try to reach out himself, but I forget.)
Lenona at December 31, 2020 5:16 AM
Well, that one was a M->F with a half done job. But yes. Whinny assholes are whinny assholes. The few obviously trans people I've encountered (not the teen girls just looking for status types) tend to have lots of problems. Not just the sex stuff.
If you were talking about people just spouting off the idea who aren't trans, and thus not directly benefitting, then no. This fellow was the same as the guys who bitch about how all women are dykes because they won't date him.
I have run into the math loons before. I got called a bigot for saying 'if you don't know the derivative of e^x then you don't know calculus.' For those not on that level the number e (2.71828...) is the derivative identity. Same as 0 is the additive identity and 1 is the multiplicative identity. If you don't know that adding 0 changes nothing you don't know how to add. If you don't know multiplying by 1 changes nothing then you don't know multiplication. Similarly if you don't know the derivative of e^x is e^x then you flat don't know calculus.
This is math. Skin doesn't enter into it. But now we have the 2+2=5 guy running around on twitter trying to see how many people he can fool. 'Lived experience' and all that.
Ben at December 31, 2020 6:14 AM
Ben mentioned about violence against trans. This mostly occurs with men dressed like women who are prostitutes. After a blow job when the John finds out he just got a blow job from another man, he loses his mind and beats or kills the hooker. ugly but true.
Ever seen a trans IRL? One male person I knew by reputation transitioned to female at about age 50 before I ever met him. When we did meet, we talked briefly and I noted that he made a particularly ugly woman. In think in such cases there might be some involvement of falling T levels with middle age (Bruce Jenner comes to mind also) that tips the scales. The only other one I know for sure was a short muscular white guy wearing a frilly dress. He had NOT transitioned and has a friend leading him around by the elbow. He seemed really lost and confused.
cc at December 31, 2020 9:45 AM
> ugly but true.
Cite?
It's so easy to imagine that we deserve evidence of this 'truth.' Remember when Earth was so obviously flat?
Crid at December 31, 2020 10:13 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth
If you want to be 'progressive' then your opponents must be 'regressive'. If you want to be 'enlightened' then those who came before must have been in the darkness. Or at least that is the advertising you put out.
Ben at December 31, 2020 11:26 AM
As for the violence, I was speaking from personal experience rather than anything scientific. My generation in high school everyone odd was labeled gay. We also had a couple of 'gay' guys who slept with a new girl every week or two. The fake gays tended to get really violent if a guy kissed them. So NicoleK's line about "They will soon be convincing you that sucking ladydick is totally not gay." is old hat. That all happened over 30 years ago. I even had a girl in college try 'It isn't gay if a girl sticks her finger in your butt.' My response was it isn't gay when I punch a bitch. Gay or not doesn't enter into it. Don't poke where you aren't invited.
I know there were a couple of studies years ago that showed women had a much more plastic sexuality than men do. But that was 20+ years ago. I didn't keep any links and they would be dead by now even if I had.
Ben at December 31, 2020 11:43 AM
crid would like a cite. I know I have seen stats that most of the trans murders (supposedly a crime wave of transphobia) were hookers who got in trouble as I mentioned. Here is an example from Google search but note how hard it is to get good numbers:
"In the United States, a 2015 survey from the National Center for Transgender Equality said one in five transgender adults surveyed said they participated in sex work, with higher rates among minority women. Of the 53 transgender people killed from 2013 through 2015, 34 percent were in the sex trade at the time of their deaths, according to the Human Rights Campaign."
cc at December 31, 2020 12:20 PM
The trans murder rate is not higher than the general murder rate.
Here's one for the UK, also touches on North America and Europe in general:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/
Here's an article for the States
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/8/transgender-homicide-rate-remarkably-low-despite-h/
The myth of the high murder rate came from a study of transwomen who were Brazilian street prostitutes. It is true if you are a transgender Brazilian street prostitute, you are at risk.
NicoleK at December 31, 2020 12:39 PM
"So even as the hate directed towards us diminishes from the heterosexuality community, it's now coming at us from the LGBT community."
I suggest that those people have never really earned anything. If I get mad about something you've said, it damned sure isn't because you're gay, and I respect your prior service.
-----
"Sound familiar?"
Bill Clinton?
-----
"Trans people like to pretend that thinking it makes it so,..."
It is very difficult to deal with others when you are personally confused about/burdened with self-posed questions about the basics of your own identity; if Reality stepped in for a minute, it'd slap people pretty hard with the plain fact that damned few of us want to invest in a person with continuing drama and endless questions.
-----
"Sexual attraction is strongly moderated by pheromones that we can't even smell."
Sorry, we don't have 'em - it's a colloquialism designed to mitigate responsibility in human mating rituals. Despite these claims, no pheromonal substance has ever been demonstrated to directly influence human behavior in a peer reviewed study. You can claim to be an animal or insect, but... nah.
-----
"Caitlyn" Jenner's voice is not attractive at all.
Aside from Ppen, let us recall Lena Cuisina, whose words would clearly have merit now.
Radwaste at December 31, 2020 1:04 PM
> If you want to be 'progressive'
Who said anything about "European scholars and educated people"? You are, to be blunt, one of the last on the planet from whom we might expect such allegiance. Check the pipelines!
> note how hard it is
> to get good numbers
And note that complaints about the difficulty of inquiry do not affirm unsubstantiated "truth."
Crid at December 31, 2020 3:23 PM
Rad, no, I was not referring to any individual. I wasn't even referring to adult males accused of rape.
I was merely referring to adolescent attitudes that no adult should have. (Not to mention that, given how quickly things like teen anger, narcissism and peer pressure can get out of control, it's high time that parents start keeping all their teens under close supervision. ESPECIALLY those who just might become a threat to others, not just those who might become crime victims. That includes those insecure teens who cannot be trusted not to shoplift when under peer pressure, even if they'd never do that when alone.)
Lenona at December 31, 2020 4:49 PM
> "In the United States, a 2015
> survey from the National Center
> for Transgender Equality said
> one in five transgender adults
> surveyed said they participated
> in sex work
1. "Participated"
2. The loudest part of that passage is the intimation of social dislocation… Not in the Facebook sense, but consequent to developmental issues. I tend to presume as much about most straight or merely gay prostitutes. Sexual preference, and what's now called "identity" don't much figure into my presumptive calculation.
Anyway, there's nothing in that passage to sustain the scenario you described at 9:45am.
> it's high time that parents
> start keeping all their teens
> under close supervision
While admiring your faith in affectionate involvement, there's considerable evidence that one reason kids are spazzing out (with respect to matters like free speech, public violence and their working lives) is that they're given far too much supervision in every context except social media.
Hell Year is winding down, but even heretofore kids were not being allowed to walk to the store (or be sent to the store), or roam the neighborhood looking for friends for adventure, etc etc.
The first time I heard this pattern described was for Kleybold & Harris— Upscale kids living too far apart to see each other without Moms driving them for visits even in the sophomore year of high school… At which point (as the story was told), their parents passed them keys to new cars as birthday gifts. But they'd not had the lesson of a fender bender. They weren't learning things in jobs, or in minor conflicts with other kids, or in exploratory observation of adults who might demonstrate what it means to be sincerely troubled, or poor, or violent. Naivete in isolation, and then Columbine.
Kids are supposed to skin their knees.
Some teenagers are supposed to shoplift… Until they get caught, until they get a job where they see how cruel it is to their boss who owns the retail outlet, or until they figure out that it's a generally stupid thing to do.
Also, what Rad said about pheromones. ✔
Crid at December 31, 2020 7:33 PM
Eighty-four more minutes
Crid at December 31, 2020 7:35 PM
Why exactly should merchants have to wait for other people's kids to "outgrow" a thieving phase? (Hint: plenty of them never do if the police can't nab them red-handed.) Business owners in small towns wouldn't just wait for years, so why should they have to do that in big cities, just because they often can't track down the identities of the preteen thieves?
Believe me, I'm all in favor of letting honest, trustworthy kids live the free-range life. Even if it means they will break an arm once in a while. Too many parents are hovering for all the wrong reasons.
But given how young, non-poor shoplifters keep driving up prices and just don't care, if I were a merchant, I'd certainly think that it's the parents' job to stop that particular vicious cycle - Right Now. Once they near puberty, kids typically start being cruel and selfish in general (toward their classmates if no one else), so until they can at least look a parent in the eye and say yes, they CAN stand against negative peer pressure, even if that means becoming friendless for months (obviously, that's a pretty high price to pay), they should not be trusted not to commit crimes.
(Why do so many parents worry only about their kids' safety, grades, and public image, compared to how their kids TREAT people?)
Btw, here's you-know-who's method for keeping his teen son out of trouble with the law (it's both more liberal and more conservative than most American parents would be, which is why it's not that popular, I suppose):
https://books.google.com/books?id=rOvbDG88Y1UC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=%22one+fine+summer+day+when+eric%22&source=bl&ots=DNx85q-NvD&sig=ACfU3U0ooaALOQaQvWj-2QbhLqSRM-9NyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidj8vxkfrtAhVpplkKHd9gBU0Q6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22one%20fine%20summer%20day%20when%20eric%22&f=false
It's on pages 153-155.
Lenona at December 31, 2020 10:48 PM
How annoying...page 154 got blocked.
I hope this works:
https://books.google.com/booksid=rOvbDG88Y1UC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=%22john+rosemond%22+eric+%22stained+glass+window%22&source=bl&ots=DNx86j5KvD&sig=ACfU3U3k25SLKjizGi2XC5YA8xa5TkJsWQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjysbDwlvvtAhVFlFkKHbuIA1kQ6AEwAHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22john%20rosemond%22%20eric%20%22stained%20glass%20window%22&f=false
Of course, many parents who read that story will likely say "oh, I couldn't do THAT! I wouldn't feel right about following through, and my kid would know that anyway!"
(Rosemond has told, often, of parents who said the above to him, if not in those exact words. All the more reason to learn to parent, early on, with one's head, without letting one's feelings get in the way.)
Lenona at January 1, 2021 8:53 AM
> Why exactly should merchants
> have to wait for other people's
> kids to "outgrow" a thieving
> phase?
They shouldn't.
Wutchagunna do about that, Lenona?
Crid at January 1, 2021 9:01 AM
Besides, I never used the word "outgrow."
I mean, I coulda, but I didn't.
See what I'm getting at?
You have some of the strongest authoritarian impulses on this blog. You know exactly whose life you want to take command of, and precisely how you want the dearest intimacies in their hearts — those for their families — to be managed.
I mean, you say these kinds of things a LOT.
Human nature takes little notice of our blog commentary.
Crid at January 1, 2021 9:05 AM
"They shouldn't."
Yes, well, from your prior post, you sounded almost as though you had more sympathy for the troublemakers than for the merchants.
Of course parents can't be with their teens all day. Even now, they can't go outside for exercise at the same time, given their different work schedules. But parents who really CARE about keeping their kids from becoming petty criminals can and do manage to keep them heavily occupied, whether with sports, chess clubs, charity work at their churches or what have you.
And, since plenty of middle-aged people are understandably worried, as they age, about themselves and their property being surrounded by young hoodlums, they tend to impose strong rules when the parents refuse to do anything - and then EVERYONE gets angry. Such as when a 24-year-old isn't allowed to check in at a motel without a guardian. Or when no unsupervised groups of teens are allowed in malls. Or when, as in Beaverton, Oregon, if there's an unaccompanied kid under ten at the library, the POLICE will be called. Guess why?
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2016/11/linkakeet-2.html
My point is, quote:
"Chains are of our own making.
"However heavy these may be they will never feel as irksome as limitations placed on us by others."
So, if parents and kids don't want to be constantly shut out of polite society, they obviously need to earn their way back in - not act as though they're being robbed of their birthright.
Lenona at January 1, 2021 12:04 PM
I'm not a Gotham luv-bot, but I've read a few (short) histories, seen the films, and had one spectacular walking tour of New York City from a friend a few years ago.
Michael was especially articulate about the currents and eddies of lawlessness and cruelty which washed the neighborhoods in successive generations… Culminating in the orderly flows of kindness and order which typify our adoration of the Big Apple today. I mean, a street vendor losing some tomatoes to unruly young toughs was the least of it. And NYC is a relatively young world capital. This has been going on since the dawn of human societies.
Your concern is sincere and admirable, but this is not a mere problem to be solved.
Crid at January 1, 2021 12:47 PM
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