Most Older Adults Have Not Joined The Cuckoo
There's a narcissism to telling people (save perhaps for close friends) one's "pronouns" and expecting them to remember them or expecting them to ask what one's pronouns are (as well as inquiring into how one "identifies").
It's a bit like the UPS man asking you "How are you today?" and you giving him a complete rundown of your day, down to the issues with your fistula.
Lala Tanmoy Das writes in the WaPo about asking patients for their pronouns:
"How's your afternoon going so far?" I asked my patient, a man who'd come to get his blood drawn and his meds refilled, one afternoon last year. While sanitizing my hands, I noticed a Trump campaign slogan emblazoned on his T-shirt. I tried not to look down at the rainbow pin on my own white coat. I introduced myself."Hi, I'm Tom, a medical student, and I use he/him pronouns. Do you mind telling me your name and pronouns so I can confirm it in the chart?"
Immediately, my patient's smile vanished. "What do you mean pronouns? Do I look confused to you?" he asked, visibly exasperated.
I apologized, but I knew I'd lost him. His responses were dismissive, and he seemed eager for the exchange to end. My intention to be inclusive had backfired, and unfortunately not for the first time.
As social attitudes shift, medical organizations are becoming more attentive to patients' gender identities and encouraging providers to ask about them. A recent report from the Association of American Medical Colleges nudged schools to teach medical students to establish an inclusive clinical encounter by asking patients what pronouns they use, no matter how they appear. I've seen how much this can do to build a rapport with the person I'm treating, especially young adults, more and more of whom use they/them pronouns in my experience.
At the same time, these interactions can be instantly alienating to a different set of patients, such as the man I met at the clinic. Many medical practitioners I've spoken to describe similar experiences. One medical student from the Southwest told me about a patient who clammed up when asked about pronouns, responding, "I refuse to answer that question." A supervising physician in California said he had no choice but to advise medical trainees at his institution to avoid the question altogether after hearing that patients responded poorly. Another doctor wrote to me: "I've backed off asking/probing systematically/routinely. Most patients were confused." And a med student from the West Coast described an experience similar to mine, telling me, "I had a patient who believed I was pushing 'an agenda' because of that question and whose tone toward me for the rest of the interview was condescending."
When I call mediation clients, I call them Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. the first time on the phone and usually on most of my subsequent calls, though sometimes they may ask me to call them by their first name, which I will. If Mr. identifies as a Ms. or Mrs., um, "they" will tell me. But the honorific, Mr. or whatever, is a sign of respect I learned -- or really modeled -- from my mother. I use it as a show of respect right out of the gate -- as opposed to calling the person by their first name: "James" or "Cathy" -- and as a continuing show of respect. You really can't go wrong with that.
At the same time, these interactions can be instantly alienating to a different set of patients, such as the man I met at the clinic.
When I go to the colonoscopist, or the phlebotomist, or the dermatologist, the topics of conversation would be my colon, my blood, or my skin respectively. How I "identify," whom I sleep with, whether I'm married, how I choose to worship — none of it is relevant, much less appropriate.
"Hi, I'm Tom, a medical student, and I use he/him pronouns. Do you mind telling me your name and pronouns so I can confirm it in the chart?"
I would be likely to look confused and say, "You don't have my name in the chart? I'm not comfortable with that."
Kevin at February 21, 2021 11:06 PM
Confirming a name is important. My next door neighbor had a similar name. (My name had two additional letters at the end of the last name) My old gynecologist’s staff got it confused on separate visits three times. I did not want our charts confused.
Jen at February 22, 2021 4:37 AM
Beep
Bop
Boop
I R A Darth Aggie at February 22, 2021 6:25 AM
"especially young adults, more and more of whom use they/them"
Allowing young adults to puralize themselves for no reason is the stupidist part of all of this.
Paul at February 22, 2021 6:59 AM
Say, Amy, since you were talking about the importance of not pretending to be young, how about using proper grammar in your headline - since proper grammar is something OLD people like?
After all, if middle age is to be a third of one's life, that means that old age has to start by age 60 at the latest.
Lenona at February 22, 2021 7:01 AM
Not sure what you're getting at here. The verb tense in the headline matches the subject. And proper grammar is something anyone who wants to communicate effectively in writing should like.
Conan the Grammarian at February 22, 2021 7:38 AM
For some reason, I can't find anything when I search on "old vs older," but I had the impression that you only say "older" when you're comparing one individual to another. Something like that.
Lenona at February 22, 2021 8:05 AM
Just checked. AP style allows "older adult(s), older person/people."
As for pronouns, I appreciate it when people put their preferred ones in their email signature. I find myself in online meetings a lot with people I don't know well, and it's nice to know if they have a preference, especially if that preference is non-binary. And e-mail signature gives me an easy way to look it up quick.
There have been a few times where I'm in a meeting, and I'm not sure whether to use he/she/they. And so I'm constantly going, "Per Alex's last email, Alex was saying that Alex is working on a new tracker for TPS reports. Just ask Alex if you've got any questions about that."
Alex uses they/them, turns out. They gently corrected a coworker recently, so that's how I finally confirmed.
sofar at February 22, 2021 8:35 AM
As an adjective, "older" refers to elder or senior. I think "Most Old Adults Have Not Joined The Cuckoo" would not convey the same meaning as "Most Older Adults Have Not Joined The Cuckoo."
The Atlantic had an article a while back about the difficulty in finding an accepted term to use in referring to adults beyond a certain age, adults who are not yet "elderly" but cannot be described as young adults.
Interestingly enough, Dictionary.com agrees with you and insists that "older" is used only as a comparative term and that "elder" is the proper word to use in this case. However, "elder," in its colloquial usage, would convey a meaning quite different from Amy's intended meaning here -- e.g., "Most Elder Adults...." I believe she meant to include adults that could be considered "old" and those who can no longer be considered "young."
One could argue that "older" is, in fact, being used as an implied comparative term in her headline. That is, being used to describe adults older than the pool of adults who are too young to know better and, as a result, have joined the cuckoo.
I think we may have to accept the implied comparative here and let our esteemed hostess off the hook.
Conan the Grammarian at February 22, 2021 8:35 AM
Pronouns are for you to use to describe me when talking about me. You should use whatever pronouns you think will most easily identify me to the other person. The point is for the person you are conversing with to figure out who you are talking about.
I have a hard time imagining any pronouns other than she/etc will help others figure out who I am, but if you think otherwise then by all means use whatever pronouns you want.
NicoleK at February 22, 2021 8:47 AM
If an older/Republican Dr did not ask about pronouns a young/Democrat could complain to get them reprimanded.
This med student obviously made this and other patients uncomfortable if not insulted. Should one complain? If people don't complain, this shift to the left becomes the "norm". If you do complain, someone with power over your medical records now hates you. Who am I kidding the student already likely hates the Trump supporter.
Joe J at February 22, 2021 8:55 AM
What's strange is that many people over a certain age will accept being called "elderly" (if grudgingly), but they're far less likely to accept being called "old."
Lenona at February 22, 2021 8:56 AM
My preferred pronouns are M'lord/Majesty/Your grace.
Ken McE at February 22, 2021 9:03 AM
Perhaps it would be worth acknowledging that some of us "older" adults find this whole pronoun fad thing to be at least mildly offensive. (Reminds me of the 50's hipster beatniks affectations about "Daddy-o" and "Cool Cats.")
Probably as much as someone who gets upset about someone not asking or using the wrong one. Not that I would want to hide behind the "What you said offends me" offensive.
Until someone gives you reason to believe or behave otherwise, it's probably best to stick to the tried and true widely socially accepted norms. (Someday those may change, and if this is one of them, I'll be glad to be gone by then, but not after I raise as much hell with them as I can first. BFYTW.)
And if they obnoxiously irritated by that first encounter, that's a sign you probably don't want there to be a second.
ruralcounsel at February 22, 2021 9:04 AM
From many years ago (I don't know who wrote it):
(During a jury selection), the judge turned and addressed the first person, a pleasant-looking woman, and asked, "Is it Miss, Mrs. or Ms.?" The woman broke the tension when she replied confidently, "It's Doctor."
Lenona at February 22, 2021 9:27 AM
In most organizations, you deal with hundreds of people. For almost all of them, you do not know their names, their marital status, and their sexual orientation. How can you know their pronouns? These additional pronouns are not even standardized. If I say, referring to James while talking to Sue, "ze will be right back", Sue may not at all understand who is being referred to, and I don't blame her. For addressing someone, we have "Mr., Ms, and Mrs." that is it (and doctor or general, job titles). So you still are stuck with Mr. smith for someone who wants to be called "they"--they are so dumb they haven't figured this out. There are no substitute terms of address. I also do not want to be burdened with someone's sexual orientation confusion. Leave me out of your personal drama.
cc at February 22, 2021 9:36 AM
Announcing your pronouns and/or asking others for theirs makes you a persona non grata by the patients.
On the left, because they're all for inclusiveness until the find out that The Diverity Quota Filler is in charge of their health.
And on the right, because recently there have been people -either anonymous and with verified checkmarks- who brag online about "missing the vein" repeatedly with a needle when they find out that their patient is a conservative.
Sixclaws at February 22, 2021 9:39 AM
Again, a question I have never had anyone be able to answer: Why are the pronouns expressed as she/her or he/him or they/them? What is the point of the second identifier?
Are we supposed to assume that there are people out there who identify as she/HIM?
I'm picturing a work conference. "Our next presentation will be given by Brianna Wilson. She is the regional director of our Omaha office. Let's give him a warm welcome!"
RigelDog at February 22, 2021 9:42 AM
I haven't been asked this yet, but I'm sure it will happen eventually, since I'm in California. I think I'll go with, "What would your guess be?"
szoszolo at February 22, 2021 9:54 AM
My pronouns, if I am forced to choose some:
Hir (which is an actual option, pronounced "hear")
Their
and Everywhere
RigelDog at February 22, 2021 11:36 AM
"What is the point of the second identifier? "
So it doesn't look as weird when one of the newly invented ones get used. Which is the same reason most give pronouns at all, when most go with the traditional ones.
Personally when ever I first get asked I'll probably be to stunned to come up with reply.
What I hope I ask is. have you actually physically met someone who didn't use the regular ones? We are talking about a fraction of a percent of the population then further limited, since pronouns are new fad, only the young.
Joe J at February 22, 2021 12:21 PM
Somehow, that pronoun question seems passive aggressive, almost demanding you participate in his neurosis - or his way of thinking, at least. Perhaps, in response you could ask him about his nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs.
Rocky at February 22, 2021 12:33 PM
Joe J helpfully replied to my question: "What is the point of the second identifier? "
So it doesn't look as weird when one of the newly invented ones get used.}}}}
Oh yeah, you have got it--thanks! Why didn't I think of that?
Sadly, somehow I don't feel any better about the whole thing.
RigelDog at February 22, 2021 1:03 PM
"He walked to the cat and the cat bit him."
Sentence has 2 pronouns, that everyone is familiar with.
But If Tom said pronoun is hir.
It becomes, "hir walked to the cat and the cat bit ???. " Haven;t a clue what the other word would be.
Since 99% of the people posting their pronoun never changed them from the regular. It would look extra weird if it went
he
she
he
he
she
she
she
Hir/ There
he
she
It's all to force conformity, so they have to conform to the odd one.
Joe J at February 22, 2021 1:49 PM
It's at least possible that no one reading these words will ever be asked about their preferred pronouns.
Verbs.
Adjectives. Whatever.
Sorry Conan, I never learned the difference between all those things.
IJS, the people who've made the most noise about this are the ones who [A] get paid/compensated for making that noise or [B] get paid/compensated for sharing it loudly to distant readers/listeners/etc.
Crid at February 22, 2021 5:39 PM
Here's a pronoun thing.
I like McWhorter because he's the kind of linguist who's not just patient with such questions, but cheerful and enthusiastic about street usage.
Crid at February 22, 2021 6:33 PM
The 1:49pm tweet was just meant to say that not all of the idiocies we read about in inflammatory media are going to survive the first contact with reality.
Crid at February 22, 2021 6:53 PM
Lala Tanmoy Das's own bias is showing right from the start when he says the patient has a Trump t-shirt and he has a rainbow pin as if that is something the patient will object to because the patient supports Trump.
Despite what the news media spins, Trump and most of his supporters are NOT bigots.
That is strike one against the doctor right there.
Strike two is that this doctor doesn't seem to know how to ask a question as basic as the patient's name. A better way to ask the patient's name is to say that you want to confirm that you have the right chart - not ask the patient if they can tell the doctor the right answer in the chart. The way the doctor asked is rather dumb as it tells the patient you think he is stupid.
The third strike is that the doctor (and other "woke" dumb asses) thinks by asking someone what pronouns he/she prefers is some how "inclusive."
I would think that you get to know me as ME rather than some category you want to put me in is more inclusive.
Seriously, if this doctor spent more time on learning how to practice medicine rather than focusing on virtue signaling on how "inclusive" he is the patients would be better.
charles at February 22, 2021 8:06 PM
CC's hit on the fundamental problem, and why 'personal pronouns' are unworkable.
No one remembers them, and that's ensured by the fact that they'll almost never be used in the presence of the person in question. This becomes apparent once you're in an environment where more than one or two people use them.
Frankly I think the motivation is primarily to enable people who identify as 'non-binary' to announce themselves.
milo at February 22, 2021 8:24 PM
Re:"no one reading these words will ever be asked about their preferred pronouns."
The project started in 2018. Two years of "work" wasted.
(Isaac Chotiner of The New Yorker interviewed San Francisco School Board President Gabriella Lopez Feb. 6, 2021)
New Yorker:
A previous mayor [George Moscone] is keeping his name on a school even though the Confederate flag was there when he was mayor. Would standards be helpful?
Lopez:
"I think that points to the criteria that they created and who they felt fell under that criteria. I mean, do we want to go through this process further? I’m open to that. Do we want to have discussions about other sites? We said we’re committed to this, so I think the dialogue is important for everyone. That’s what I’m hearing."
At the end, the bit about Lincoln is astonishing. The leader of one of the biggest school districts in the country is totally deer-in-the-headlights when asked about Lincoln.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-san-francisco-renamed-its-schools
Spiderfall at February 22, 2021 10:21 PM
“You’ll find out soon enough, doctor.”
Adam at February 26, 2021 5:03 AM
“You’ll find out soon enough, doctor.”
Adam at February 26, 2021 5:03 AM
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