Re: Wishful Finking - Very Good Advice!

My mother and I have had this disagreement (in the abstract) over and over. She says that in this situation you should tell the person his/her spouse is having an affair. I say that personally I would rather play pinata with a hornet's nest than insert myself into somebody else's marital problems.

"A woman I ran into" doesn't sound like something that the LW actually knows very well, which implies that said trustworthiness is unknown. Before I even thought about doing anything, I'd want to see some corroborating evidence. Having said that, I think that if the evidence is solid, it's one of those play-it-by-ear things. When my ex was cheating on me, I was first clued in by a close relative that I trusted, and I very much appreciated that. It was the second-to-last straw that led to me dumping her. (The last straw was the bills for credit cards I didn't know I had.)

Right CousinDave, what if the ran into woman is just trying to fuck with the lady's friend or her husband for some stupid petty reason.

Or it might have been a limited affair with the one woman and she is hurt that she was left for the wife.

My advice if you must do something, go to a public library or internet cafe 50 miles away, use cash if charged, set up a fake email account, email her once with what this woman said with the caveat that you dont know her well and leave it at that.

Act suprise and concerned if she brings it up, ignore it if she doesnt

There is no "good" answer here. LW will have to figure out the least bad choice according to his own ethics.

This was on Prudence this week, I think. Maybe Dear Annie?

I can't go along with the "mind your own business" crowd on cheating. If she doesn't know, her life is at risk. I would just tell her "I heard this, and if it was me I'd want to know. I have no need to know the details of your marriage and what you do is up to you, but I am your friend no matter what". And that's the last time I'd bring it up. She said the wife was a friend. Friends don't let friends get exposed to incurable diseases without their knowledge. Even if it makes life uncomfortable for the bearer of the news.

Being cowardly isn't a virtue.

You obviously don't go tell your friend from work that her husband is a serial cheater based on the statement of some random woman that you ran into who happens to mention that she knows these things. That's crazy.

If there's something more that confirms this story, then she could try approaching someone closer to the couple, who'd be better able to evaluate the likelihood of this claim. Like Amy stated, a guy who's juggling several affairs over so many years is probably leaving clues. But the fact that this gossip came as a surprise to the LW suggests that she's not aware of any. So she's probably not the one who should be passing along the information.

Let's say that this stranger came up and said 'X's husband is a multiple murderer." without corroboration. Should she tell her? How about if he was accused of embezzling? Or pedophilia?

Making the accusation does close to the same amount of damage as the actual act.

IF she is going to stick her nose into the affair (and that is exactly what she is doing), then it is up to her to corroborate it before making random accusations. And since she is barely willing to spread gossip...

I would like you to imagine what your relationship with a spouse would be like if THEY got an anonymous email saying you were cheating. Whether it was true or not, it would be a huge game changer in your relationship.

Statistically, I think the wife has as much of a chance of getting hit by a semi as she does of getting a life threatening disease. An embarassing disease? A little greater.

LW, if you're eaten up with guilt at staying quiet, it might be worth it to mention to the man himself that his indiscretions are somewhat less than discreet. If a woman you "ran into" tells you she had an affair with someone you know, and that he apparently prays at the altar of Wilt Chamberlain, it ain't exactly a well-kept secret. Based on his reaction, you might get more of a feel for their situation.

I agree with the majority here, without a close personal affiliation with these people, which she obviously doesn't have, and without any first hand knowledge, she's just stirring the pot, she's not doing anything useful to talk to this woman.

And Momof4, I have to disagree with you on this one, nobody knows that this man is having any affairs at all, its nothing but rumor, you don't have any hard knowledge. And if you don't have any hard knowledge, then doing this to protect her health is just plain stupid. What "might" be, is not necessarily the same as what "is".

The LW was told this guy is a volume cheater. If that's the case and the wife doesn't know, it seems likely to me it's because she doesn't want to know. The LW doesn't even know for certain AND has to work with this woman. If spilling the beans blew up in her face, she'd be in a pickle. And I doubt turning private eye and poking around in her coworker/friend's marriage to try to confirm or disprove the story would endear her to anyone involved. Much depends on just how close a friendship this is.

like I said a one time use email account,not acessed fromyours or the schools computers

Skulking 50 miles away to an internet cafe, presumably in large dark sunglasses and a head scarf, to anonymously report information with the potential to set off a bomb in your friend/coworker's life, and trying to (inadequately) cover your butt by adding, "Now, I don't actually know for SURE that your husband is a serial adulterer." I just can't see that as a good idea. Though it would put to good use those Chanel sunglasses I never get around to wearing.

Now.... this is just me. I would want to know. If I have a question I can bring it up to my husband and gauge his reaction myself, But I would be IRATE to find out that people knew he was cheating on me and just decided not to tell me cause I needed to figure it out on my own.
Also, I have a Uncle who was cheating on his wife for quite awhile on business trips and he was able to keep it VERY quiet. As soon as she found out they were over, but she wasnt just going around ignoring signs, she was being a part of a trusting relationship. People can hid a lot.

I would want someone to tel me so I could look into it and decide if I wanted to stay in this relationship.

No one WANTS to find out their spouse is cheating and have to decide what to do next. Its a huge thing, its stressful, its AWFUL, BUT, there is a difference between not wanting to find out... and not wanting it to happen. If he cheats on me I am out. It would ruin everything I want in my life right now, but I wont put up with it. But if he cheats on me, I want to KNOW.

I understand entirely Elshiva. Do you 'want to know' even if it didn't happen? Do you want to have to watch him like a hawk forever after? Do you want his side of the relationship to sour as he feels like he is constantly under scrutiny?

It won't be enough to ruin the relationship, but it would certainly change it.

I can see it now. You confront him and he flushes in embarassment because maybe he said an off color statement or flirted a bit far with a woman. You of course pick up on this bit of hesitation and...well...it isn't pretty.

But if I hear anything about your husband, I'll let you know.

luljp,

I wasn't commenting about the relationship between the LW and the wife.

I was talking about the relationship between the wife and the husband.

If I got an email that my wife was seeing multiple men, I'd be very angry and suspicious. My relationship wouldn't be the same.

If she is going to be responsible for messing up a relationship, she should have the courage to have some skin in the game and risk her own.

It sounds to me like the mentioner could be trying to plant a bomb in their marriage. She's setting the husband up to have to prove a negative. Because he can deny an affair with that woman, but how does he address all of these other women who he's purported to have slept with if it's not known who they are?

It may be that something did happen with that woman, whether an affair or something less, and that she's being vindictive.

It sounds like the man is a member of a "Tantric Bliss" club and the LW was not invited.

LW, If you tell it to the wife,
be prepared for two things:
1. she likely knows already;
2. even if she does not, you will become her personal enemy.

Hence the term "shoot the messenger".

LW did not witness the husband cheating? Husband did not cheat or attempt to cheat with LW? Sounds like unsubstantiated gossip to me. I wouldn't say a word.

P.S. Do commenters ever go back to columns from previous weeks? I noticed somebody commented on one of my comments a week or two ago but I was crazy busy and didn't have time to respond. Didn't want people to think I was ignoring them.

Assuming the messenger has some credibility, I say yes, you should tell the wife.

After my divorce, I discovered the extent of lies my wife had spread about me to my family and friends and NONE of them bothered to call me. It has caused a permanent rift with some of them and a mistrust on my part. True friends don't hide information.

Talk to anyone whose spouse had an affair that they didn't know about and one thing that pisses them off the most is finding out who knew and didn't say anything.

My former boss was a cheater. I'm pretty sure his wife at least had an inkling.

I wouldn't tell someone that I suspected their spouse was a cheater unless they were one of my best friends. Perhaps, if we were pretty close and I had actual evidence/had seen him out on a date with someone I'd mention it. But, unless the LW and the coworker are GOOD friends, it seems like LW is setting herself up to be the shot messenger. Women scorned aren't known to be rational.

P.S. Do commenters ever go back to columns from previous weeks?

On my home web browser I keep every column and blog post open in a seperate tab, once there has been no activity on them for more than 48hrs I close them.

I dont understand why people comment months or years after the commnts have gone cold expecting someone to respond

I wouldn't tell someone that I suspected their spouse was a cheater unless they were one of my best friends.

This. I couldn't bring myself to tell someone I barely know something as hurtful as "hey I heard your spouse is cheating on you". I mean, who the hell am I to them, anyway? No, if I don't know the person well, I'd not say anything. If it's one of my best friends, I'd say "this is what I heard, but I have no idea if it's true or not" and take it from there. Because if she asks, you know I've got to tell her where I heard it from.

As someone who has been cheated on, I can attest that almost no one tells you until afterwards. Then, it's a deluge. "Oh, yes, I saw him with so and so YEARS AGO and thought it was odd..." etc. You look at your friends and think, "Thanks!"

That kind of information would've been invaluable to me if I had known it at the time. Those being cheated upon rarely KNOW for sure about the cheating, but they have suspicions, which are usually quelled by the cheater.

My ex was a terrific gaslighter. He'd tell me it was "all in my head". That I was jealous, insecure, and there was nothing going on with so and so except innocent friendship, or work, or whatever.

Had I received an observation from an outside source that would've helped me connect the dots (lies), it would've been extremely helpful - life changing. Fortunately, I never caught any STDs, but I could have AIDS now. My "friends" should've shared what they knew.

The message didn't even need to be, "I know your husband is cheating" just that someone saw him and her at such and such place (when he had told me he was at work, gym, or the store). I could've connected the dots from there.

If I were LW, I'd send an anonymous message as "a friend" just detailing the interchange, and saying that she has no idea if this could be true or just someone trying to cause trouble, but this is what was said. Be as specific as possible about who the affairs are supposedly with and the time period.

Chances are the wife suspects, and if she doesn't she probably should. Let her be the one to take in this information and evaluate her husbands behavior accordingly.

At best - even if he's innocent - LW's wife should be aware that this woman is out there spreading this story about her husband and family. If she's an enemy or spiteful neighbor, her intent will be obvious, and if she was, in fact, a lover, the wife likely already suspects but lacks proof.

People who snitch on philanderers have a couple of "good" reasons that justify (at least in the head games that they play with themselves) this tattling. "There's so many diseases out there..." "But she's my friend and it's my duty..."

But the real reason, I believe, is about power. This "I know something you don't...and I just can't wait to spill it." It sets themselves up as the sympathetic hero, as the person who exposed the philandering bum. Seeking the praise and commendation of others. But very seldom is it done for any reasons but the self-serving.

I say tell her. It never crossed my mind that my ex was cheating - until I developed HPV. Literally years and many outpatient surgeries later I wish someone would have told me. Not saying I wouldn't have already been infected w/HPV but that 1st Dr. visit where I was told I had it would have gone a whole lot easier for me if I had known what was going on. I had been monogomous for 20 years - what a shock to get HPV. Sorry, to disagree with you, Amy, regarding all wives / cheating - it never crossed my mind. My doctor must have thought I was crazy as I sat there asking him if I could have been exposed 20 years ago & just developing symptoms then.

You don't tell someone their Hubby is a serial cheater unless you have absolute proof.

Why would you be in a hurry to mess her marriage up? He'll either get caught eventually or he won't and she can live her life in blissful married ignorance meanwhile.

My parents taught me that no one likes a tattle tale and I've learned it's best to mind my own business.

If you're going to go the anonymous email route, then you'd better have concrete evidence that can be easily substantiated either way, like "I saw your husband with so and so at a Holiday Inn on December 15th at 4:30pm" not just "I think your husband is having an affair." The latter is only going to make the recipient miserable and paranoid without giving them anything substantial to go on.

I think lovelysoul has a good point that it's worth bringing to your friend's attention that this women is out there either sleeping with her husband, or spreading lies to that effect. If LW chooses to speak to her, she should phrase it like, "So and so told me this on this date, and I thought you should know what she's saying." That takes the spotlight off you and gives the wife somewhere concrete to focus if she wants to investigate, or plausible deniability if she wants to pretend that the speaker is mistaken/lying/crazy/whatever.

On the other hand, you definitely are risking blame-the-messenger syndrome, which is especially tricky when it's a coworker who you'll still have to interact with even if things go south. If you think that the allegation will ruin your friendship and professional relationship then I would not say anything, especially with no substantial proof. It's really a judgement call based on LW's knowledge of her friend's personality and preferences.

There's a reason police officers believe domestic disputes calls are the most dangerous. I would have to first of all be certain of my information (which the LW is not) and second of all it would have to be a very close friend or relative...and even then I would hesitate and think it through carefully.

"You don't tell someone their Hubby is a serial cheater unless you have absolute proof."

One of the big fallacies about cheating is that you can easily get absolute proof. Usually you can't, unless you're a private investigator, or can afford to hire one. Even so, most people won't go that far.

Let's say you see your friend's husband out with a woman at some hotel. You can't see them having sex, do you? Maybe he's there for a business meeting. Maybe she's an old college friend he just ran into.

You can bet he'll have some story to tell his wife that won't include having sex with this woman, and since presumably you didn't see him in naked embrace, it'll be your word against his.

But the events alone are suspicious, and when a spouse is beginning to get suspicions, this info can help connect the dots and lies being told to them. No matter what story he comes up with, the spouse's eyes will begin to open, and eventually, it will be a matter of the preponderance of evidence, not absolute proof.

That's why sharing this information is so important. Maybe the wife has always suspected something physical went on with this particular woman, but her husband denied it, and she has no other proof, other than a gut feeling.

At any rate, the fact this woman is telling other people she was this man's lover is either a deeply disturbing vendetta...or the truth. Either way, as his wife, wouldn't you want to know about it?

I sympathize with your point of view, lovelysoul, but to me it smacks very much of poking one's nose where it doesn't belong, especially if the person you're sharing this information with is a casual friend, coworker, or acquaintance. Is there a tactful way to mention in passing to a wife that you saw her husband with another woman? No matter how casual or offhand you try to sound, she will know instantly what you're implying. I imagine the reaction you'd often get would be anger, that it would be interpreted as an attack on her, her husband, and her marriage. I can't see it being wise to put yourself in the position of "my word versus his" against somebody's spouse.

But the events alone are suspicious, and when a spouse is beginning to get suspicions, this info can help connect the dots and lies being told to them. No matter what story he comes up with, the spouse's eyes will begin to open, and eventually, it will be a matter of the preponderance of evidence, not absolute proof.

And her eyes open and he gives her a story. If he's innocent, he can't prove a negative. If he's guilty and can talk his way out of it, then he is now twice as careful so she can't prove anything.

I get the 'last to know thing'. One of my co-workers cheated on his wife and children. He was deployed for 45 days...and kept extending his stay because he was having an affair with another woman. We all knew this. We all saw it.

I wasn't giving him cover and a great many of us had no use for him after that. But I didn't know the wife. It scuttled his career and his marriage.

Someone dropped a dime on him because he was supposed to meet his GF when he came back to the States. Someone told his wife when he would really arrive, not the week later that he told her. THAT is how you reveal an affair! Certainly it's proof enough of a major lie.

The Other Woman that LW ran into sounds to me as if she has a vendetta to settle with the Husband. But rather than doing it directly with the Husband herself, she is being sneaky and manipulative about it. She's hoping that LW will be the one to tell the Wife about it, since she is friends with the Wife. Thus, Other Woman doesn't have to do any of the dirty work herself.

I've dealt with extended family members who do things like this, drop bits of information in hopes that it makes its way to other family members by way of gossip or hearsay. Of course, the information is always purposely released with an intent behind it.

My advice to LW is to stay out of it altogether and don't allow yourself to be manipulated by the Other Woman.

Who wants to be a pawn in someone else's maritals problems?

"I get the 'last to know thing'. One of my co-workers cheated on his wife and children. He was deployed for 45 days...and kept extending his stay because he was having an affair with another woman. We all knew this. We all saw it."

Yet you kept quiet like most do, even knowing the absolute truth. Why do otherwise ethical people feel this is ok? Would you do it if you knew he was embezzling from his employer? Why is deceiving the most intimate partner in his life given a pass?

"Who wants to be a pawn in someone else's maritals problems?"

Because those marital problems could be yours, though no one ever wants to believe this until it happens to them...or their children.

Besides, what I'm suggesting is not that LW even has to involve herself. Write an anonymous letter. Most victims of cheating would be glad to be spared the humiliation of knowing exactly who else knows. But most would be grateful to know, and in this age of HIV and HPV, it is the moral thing to do.

The likelihood that this woman is simply making up her involvement with the husband is very slim. Maybe she's a psychopath, but, as I said, there are only two plausible reasons for her to say this - that's she's completely crazy or it's the truth.

I'd bet on it being the truth because someone trying to break up this family would pick a closer friend of the wife than LW apparently is.

Would you do it if you knew he was embezzling from his employer?

Blackmail for a cut of the action, baby

"Besides, what I'm suggesting is not that LW even has to involve herself. Write an anonymous letter."

That IS involvement, however indirect form it may take.

Smart people don't allow themselves to be a pawn in other people's problems. They stay out of the messy games that foolish people wish to play with each other's lives.

Well, those people are experts at being in denial, so they'll probably just throw the letter away. But if the spouse wants to know, the anonymous LW has done them a huge favor, with minimal skin off their back, if any. Maybe even saved their life.

Some people stay miserably married to partners that their gut tells them they can't trust but since they have no proof of wrongdoing, divorce seems extreme.

This info will either mean something to the spouse or it won't. If she knows he's cheating, it won't hurt her. If she suspected he was cheating or didn't have a clue, it will hurt, but she'll have the choice to protect herself. If this is some vicious nemesis, spreading a horrible lie around town about sleeping with her husband, it may be actionable.

People rarely have enemies like that without knowing why. She'll probably already have an inkling that this person is out to get her and her family, but it'll be helpful to know the lie that she's spreading.

The key is that LW isn't interpreting the information. All she is doing is giving it to her friend to process. You don't go to someone and say, "Your husband is a cheater". Everyone has this wrong. You can't know he's cheater. All you can do is share what you've heard or seen. A true friend - or even a decent aquaintance - would do that.

I concur with lovelysoul. I find it very condescending and a violation of trust to know something and deliberately hide it from the affected party.

Don't assume that every wife wants to know, or that every husband does.

Don't assume the every wife or husband doesn't want to know.

To be blunt, I think withholding this information is due more to cowardice than principle. In my own family, I wonder if my mother kept back information she'd learned so when the divorce happened, she wouldn't feel responsible. One irony is that those relatives who knew and kept the secret were actually enabling my ex-wife's personality disorder to a huge degree. The same goes here. Keeping the secret is enabling the cheating husband.

The wisest words ever spoken regarding relationships: "Don't ask, don't tell."

Relationships and marriages are not prisons, and can't be if the male wants a small streak of happiness now and then. For 99 percent of men, a monogamous relationship is far too confining, a modern-day invention of the religious organizations and women.

I never heard a man speak glowingly about monogamy--except in the presence of women.

BOTU, you might be interested in research showing that monogamy isn't natural for women, either. But none of the research includes info on anal sex, so then again, maybe not.

"Keeping the secret is enabling the cheating husband."

Being reluctant to interfere in other people's marriages is not enabling in my book, it's wisely minding my own business. Years ago I did what you suggest and told a roommate her boyfriend was cheating. Unlike the LW, I knew for certain. Strangely enough, I didn't get the grateful reaction you and lovelysoul are envisioning. She was angry at me and retaliated by trying to create a mess in my private life. I learned an old, old lesson: SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

Lizzie, so what? I bet they aren't together today. You still did the right thing, whether it benefited you or not.

I am grateful to each and every person who stepped up through the years just to tell me the truth.

One guy, in particular, simply told me where my husband was. I was searching for him one day and every person I encountered lied to me - they "hadn't seen him", or he was "just here...probably still around", etc..."

Adultery is one of the few crimes that people will involve themselves in concealing rather than revealing. Yet, covering up for someone is an involvement too, you know?

This brave guy looked me straight in the eye and said, "He just left with so and so (a woman I'd suspected he was cheating with).

All he did was tell me THE TRUTH. He didn't say, "Your husband is a cheater". But that information enabled me to finally connect the dots (lies) and know that my husband was cheating.

Most people who have been cheated on realize that's the best you get. Rarely do you walk in on your spouse actually banging someone else. What matters is the trickle of information that gives you the preponderance of evidence - that lets the liar know they've been caught, the jig is up. Often, then, you'll get a confession, but without that info, it's impossible.

The information LW has received is huge. It's not idle gossip. Here is a woman stating that she was this man's lover...and not the only one for the past 5 years. Either she's lying or not, but the LW's friend has a right to know that this is being said about her husband. For that matter, the husband deserves to know! Wouldn't you want to know if someone was making such malicious claims about you?

Innocent people need not fear the truth. If LW's friend's husband isn't cheating, then he has nothing to fear and would probably welcome knowing that some psycho is spreading this false rumor about him. The action of not sharing this information suggests that the LW believes it's true and will conspire to conceal it from the wife and everyone else. That, in itself, is an involvement.

"Accepted thinking is that the cheated-on partner wants to know. It is not always the case. In fact, it is more often not the case than you'd think. Some people keep their marriages together by looking the other way as one partner gets what they need elsewhere. Some of these people would rather be in the dark about this. Once it's shoved in their face, they can't maintain the emotional fiction that allows them to continue as a couple or a family."

Presumably, the LW knows this couple enough to ascertain whether they may have some sort of "arrangement" or the wife would probably want to know.

Let's say this was about Gregg. I don't know you guys personally but I've read enough about your relationship in this blog to know that if some mutual acquaintance came up to me and said she was sleeping with Gregg, you'd probably want to know...most likely because it would be false, and you'd need to know that this person is spreading a lie about you. What kind of friend would I be to say nothing? The worst that could happen would be that you'd laugh and say, "Hey, Gregg and I gave each other a free pass..I know all about it!" Whew, I'd be relieved, but keeping it from you isn't the right way for a friend to go.

Innocent people need not fear the truth.

And yet, there is the TSA

Her retaliatory actions involved my family and were hardly a "so what?" to me.

"Yet, covering up for someone is an involvement too, you know?"

This is where I disagree with you. Declining to push myself into others' private lives is not proactively engaging in a coverup. As I said before, I'd consider it for a close friend or relative. Otherwise, I will mind my own business. I am not the Lizzie knows best marriage police.

"Innocent people need not fear the truth."

I'm sorry, but this strikes me as naive. You're suggesting we drop a bomb in this woman's life on the basis of an unsubstantiated rumor. We'd have to turn private eye and investigate a coworker's spouse just to be sure the information was accurate. Ridiculous. If the woman who approached the LW with this story did so with malicious intent, by repeating it we would become the hammer with which she smashes these people. No thanks.

The simple test is what would you want someone to do for you in that situation?

I think it's bogus to take the "some people don't want to know their spouse is cheating" view. Those cases are much more rare than the ones where the spouse does want to know - and actually needs to know because they're at risk.

What if this woman came up to you and said your friend was abusing her kids? Would you just take the view that you keep quiet, so as not to inject yourself into her "personal life"? Is that what you would want your friends to do?

My friends know they can come to me for the truth, good or bad.

A couple of years ago, my girlfriend found her husband had an account set up on Ashleymadison.com, a cheating website.

She went to other "friends" and asked them what they thought this meant, and she received such lame, weeny, "I can't get involved" answers. "He must've just clicked on it by accident...maybe it was a pop up"...

He had an account...with a password!

She came to me, and I said, "Unfortunately, it seems he's trying to cheat on you."

"Couldn't he have just been curious?" she asked.

"It's possible, but highly unlikely", I told her.

Sure, she could've turned on me for saying that, but it was the only practical and true assessment.

She confronted him, and he, in fact, told her that he was "just curious" after seeing an ad during a football game...so he set up and account, gave them his credit card, just to "look around".

She believed him then...because she wanted to. But her eyes were more open, and a few months later, when she was out of town for work, she heard that he was out dancing with another woman on a night he assured her he was home.

Again, he tried to explain it away..."it was a co-worker, just friends"...and then a few other incidents...until it became a preponderance of the evidence situation.

After she left him, her so-called friends came forward with all kinds of evidence. They'd seen him here and there and out with so and so. But they never said a thing!

Yet, if she'd had those pieces to the puzzle she'd have been able to put it together a lot earlier and not wasted 7 years of her life with a cheater.

So, you have to decide what kind of friend you really are. And, to me, a true friend will have the uncomfortable, even possibly friendship-ending talk.

As I originally said in this thread, much depends on how close a friendship the LW has with this woman. And no, I don't equate child abuse with adultery. In the former instance the victim is powerless, in the latter we're talking about an adult who needs to take control of what is going on in her own life and do something about it. Your friend directly asked you for your knowledge and opinion. That's not at all the case with the LW's situation.

What would I want someone to do for me in this situation? What they feel is right for them, because it's not their responsibility to chisel open my eyes for me and jump into the middle of my marriage if I have no idea what my husband is up to. And actually, according to what you've said here, both you and your friend already had a very good idea. You just needed to make the final leap in your own minds. Nobody can do that for you. Anyone who's not ready to make the leap won't do it, and a gossiping coworker is unlikely to change that.

"If the woman who approached the LW with this story did so with malicious intent, by repeating it we would become the hammer with which she smashes these people. No thanks."

Exactly. I'm surprised more people haven't focused on the likelihood that the woman LW ran into had ulterior motives in "mentioning" her affair.

Assuming that to be the case, what would be the point of LW repeating her malicious gossip? All it would serve is to not only make LW a manipulated tool for that woman, but also possibly undermine her friendship with a person she works with. I'd totally steer clear of that scenario, because that just spells out potential disaster. Not only could you possibly jeopardize a friendship, but you could also run into all sort of future problems at your workplace.

It's a dangerous scenario fraught with far too many unknowns.

Wow, just wow, the leap of assumption that this is malicious gossip?

But, it doesn't matter. If malicious gossip is going around about someone, they have a right to know.

Not only could you possibly jeopardize a friendship,...

Not revealing this information would destroy a friendship. Keeping this secret isn't an act of courage or honor, but quite the opposite.

There was also the assertion that earlier knowledge that is revealed is power. No, it isn't; knowledge not revealed is power.

Isn't it amazing that rather than simply tell the wife the facts of the conversation without embellishment, all sorts of extreme situations are dreamed up, blowing the entire thing out of proportion in a gargantuan way.

How about this scenario; the mistress is just that, the husband is sleeping around and the wife doesn't know. But that won't work, because then there are no more excuses.

How about yet another scenario? Adults opening their own eyes and taking responsibility for their own marital choices and not putting the onus on their friends, family, and coworkers to wise them up. It's making excuses to wail, "But somebody should have told me!"

The LETTER WRITER asked for advice, and Amy's advice to her was sound. For the third (or fourth) time, much depends on how well she knows the wife and how close a friend she is. She should proceed with caution.

Yet you kept quiet like most do, even knowing the absolute truth. Why do otherwise ethical people feel this is ok? Would you do it if you knew he was embezzling from his employer? Why is deceiving the most intimate partner in his life given a pass?

Because this man had two sons that he adored, that's why. I was raised in a divorce. It sucks! It sucks big time!

By doing this, I would be forcing this woman to a) suck it up and decimate her self esteem by staying with a known cheater, or b) have her go into a divorce, fiscally and emotionally devestating all the members of that family.

This is a hell of a lot to ask me to do to a stranger. I didn't even know her name.

But you are correct. By making that choice, I did an ethically crappy thing. The least I should have done was tell him he was doing a crappy thing to his wife, even if he was my boss and I lived in the same tent with him.

"And actually, according to what you've said here, both you and your friend already had a very good idea. You just needed to make the final leap in your own minds. Nobody can do that for you."

Yes, they can. What we needed was more evidence. Hardly anyone divorces their spouse because they "think" they're cheating. It's the preponderance of evidence that builds the case.

Someone with courage usually gives the spouse that. In my case, it was the one guy who had the decency just to say what he knew. The truth.

Also in my friend's case. When she "heard" her husband was out dancing, it was from someone she knew -someone who was disgusted enough by the husband's behavior to call her up and tell her. Had she not gotten that call, she'd probably still be with him, believing his lies.

The person who called her could've taken the view that it wasn't her place. She could've made up elaborate stories about why the husband being out dancing late at night with a pretty blond was likely "innocent" (it's his cousin....his lesbian friend..anything but a lover, right?).

However, in the realm of infidelity, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it usually IS a duck.

Remember that if your partner ever hands you some lame Ashleymadison-style excuse, or gives you stories that just doesn't quite add up. And hope that your friends have the courage to tell you things you should know.

I find it offensive that so many women, particularly, will not stand up in this regard, simply because:

a) they're afraid of not being liked
b) they take a patronizing view of the spouse as someone who can't handle the information

LW should respect her friend enough to let her know what was said. If it's all lies, let HER sort it out. This is being said about her husband, so it's her business being discussed all over town behind her back, whether anyone tells her or not.

LW has friends she's probably already told, who've already told their friends. Certainly, the woman is telling others.

So, as the saying goes, the wife gets to be the LAST to know...unless somebody views that as wrong, which it is.

"By doing this, I would be forcing this woman to a) suck it up and decimate her self esteem by staying with a known cheater, or b) have her go into a divorce, fiscally and emotionally devestating all the members of that family."

Again, let HER make the choice. By keeping silent, you made the choice for her, deeming her too fragile to sort through her own options. You concluded (for them) that everyone (in your opinion) is better off living a lie than knowing the truth.

I agree with lovelysoul. My live in ex boyfriend was cheating on me, friends knew, nobody told. They all said later I should have known. It never occurred to me that he would do that. Naive, yes, but not denial. I was simply trusting my partner. If someone had spoken earlier it would have saved me a world of pain. As for shoot the messenger, I can understand a relationship could get awkward. But in the situation described by Lizzie, it sounds like your friend wasn't very stable anyway. A normal person would at worst not want to be around you, which is unfortunate but hardly an excuse to MYOB.
Also, as someone who has been the target of malicious false rumors, again, I would want to know if this woman is spreading lies, especially to people she just runs into. Not a comfortable situation, but imagine if say she is trying to have kids who will be brought into this?

And Lizzie, my goodness! If you don't have any use for those sunglasses, I can find a good home for them.

Let's face it, ladies, a lot of women live for this behind-someone's-back gossip. It's like high school.

LW wrote an advice columnist over this dilemma, so I'll bet she's discussed it with her friends over coffee. And they're all like (very concerned), "what to do...what to do...poor so-and so...doesn't know about her hubby's a cheater..." but they won't tell her!

They'll tell everyone else though. So, if LW has already helped spread the story she's not being a good friend. Talk about playing into the plot of the potential nemisis! Tell everyone BUT the wife.

lovelysoul, I just can't agree with you given the particular circumstances of this situation, i.e. not knowing if the story reported was even true, not knowing how close the LW is to the wife, and the sticky fact that she has to keep working with her no matter the fallout. I'm not saying it's an easy decision, it's a very difficult potential damned-if-you do/damned-if-you-don't proposition. Each situation must be judged on its own merits.

What I firmly disagree with is your assertion that other people must take upon themselves the responsibility of helping/forcing the cheated-upon spouse to see the truth. There are some burdens and responsibilities in life that no other person can remove from you. If you want to live consciously (to borrow a phrase from the book Amy recommended above) you will realize sooner or later, on one level or another, that you're married to somebody who treats you disgracefully. First of all you need to have enough self-regard to leave that situation, though certainly the presence of children is a real game-changer, as flydye pointed out. Second, you have to perform the unpleasant task of looking in the mirror and figuring out how and why you chose this person. Blaming friends, family, and coworkers for not saving you from your own choices--to me THAT is cowardice.

And now I will bow out of this discussion. It's obviously a sensitive one with no easy answer and I don't want to rub salt in the wounds of anyone who has been on the business end of infidelity.

Alice, those sunglasses are cool. I really need to dress cool more often.

Let's face it, ladies, a lot of women live for this behind-someone's-back gossip.

Kindly refrain from lumping me in with your fucked up circle of friends. Not all women engage in the sordid gossip you so evidently relish.

"Blaming friends, family, and coworkers for not saving you from your own choices--to me THAT is cowardice."

I never expected to be saved. All I expected was decency and truth. It's bad enough for someone to be in a situation where they fear they can't trust their spouse, but friends should be true, even if the spouse isn't.

A true friend will either tell you or take it to the grave. They won't gossip behind her back, then (years later), say, "Oh, well, I knew...we all knew...but we didn't want to tell you."

On the scale of betrayal, the friends who knew and didn't tell me rank far worse than my ex. They were discussing it behind my back, while lying to my face...for no reason other than a fear that I might "get mad at them" or couldn't handle the truth...things might be "awkward" for them. That's not a valid excuse!

The likelihood is that this story is true. The husband is a cheater. But, if it isn't, the wife would likely know in the first moment after being told. She probably knows who this woman is. Either it's a disgruntled co-worker, a relative, or maybe the jealous classmate who has always wanted to ruin her life.

If it's a lie, she can sort it out. If it's the truth, she can sort it out. Have enough respect for her intelligence to give her the option.

All the LW has to do if she can't tell her directly is send an anonymous note. Seriously, who can't be bothered to do that much?

She's not responsible for the fall-out. That's not her concern. There are just as many dangers and risks to that family by not knowing the truth as knowing it.

Cheaters get involved with some very unstable people. If this woman is a Fatal Attractionesque Glenn Close, rabbit-boiling nutjob, who kills the wife or kidnaps the kids, that could be a bad outcome too, wouldn't it? Why does nobody consider the scenarios involved in NOT knowing? HIV, HPV, herpes, murder...

Besides, the revelation of adultery doesn't always lead to divorce. It might lead to counseling and an even better, more loving marriage.

But none of that is up to you as a friend. Your sole motivation is to do what is right and ethical within that relationship. To treat someone like they are too stupid or fragile to handle the truth - or worse, to only consider the impact this may have on you - is not being a good friend.

Amy is absolutely right about this. No one has a duty to tell someone that their partner is cheating. It may not even be the right thing to do. Only a really close friend can know, and they still may choose not to talk about it. Every person has the responsibility for choosing their partner and building a healthy relationship. To do this, it's best to see what's right in front of you.

Yes, there are some amazingly deceptive and manipulative people out there. I've been involved with someone like that myself. Unfortunately, I was an easy mark. I eventually got out and boy, am I wiser now. Looking back, I'm horrified at what I allowed this person to do and how expertly I was manipulated. Still, all the signs were there. Some friends suspected what was going on and hinted at the truth, while others just listened to me raving about how in love I was and kept their concerns to themselves. I ignored the hints and probably would have vehemently denied any "proof." Only I could eventually wake myself up from my self-deception.

I'm actually grateful for the experience, because I know I can never be deceived like that again. I'm thankful I didn't pick up any diseases. But even if I had, I wouldn't go around blaming others for basically not telling me what I needed to do. Yeah, I felt kind of humiliated when I told my friends I'd come to my senses, and I realized they'd had their suspicions all along. So what? I'd insisted I was happy, and they took that at face value. They're still my friends, and they've helped me put the whole nasty business behind me.

It's best to figure out who people are before you let them get entrenched in your life. And you only get the relationship that you build. However, if you mess up, just admit it and learn from it. No one else has a duty to keep you from making mistakes.

Having suspicions is one thing. I don't fault friends for not coming to me with mere suspicions.

But having a woman come up to you and say, directly, "I've been sleeping with your friend's husband, and I'm not the only one in the past 5 years," is vastly different!

For one thing, any woman who would do that is unstable. She obviously wants people to know she's been sleeping with a married man, or THINK she has. Both possibilities are threatening to my friend's (and her husband's) well-being.

Mistresses, and even women who are simply fixated on a particular guy, usually want the wife out of the picture. Homicides occur all the time due to these sick love triangles.

LW has more than suspicion here. In fact, by agonizing over whether to tell or not, she's obviously already decided it's true. If she really believed this woman was spreading malicious lies about her friend's husband, she'd tell her.

By contrast, the man who told me where my husband was that day wasn't making a judgment call. Everyone else who covered for him did. But that guy didn't know if my husband was cheating or not. He simply chose to tell the truth, not coddle or "protect" me by lying.

From there, what I did with the truth was up to me. Maybe I'd put my head in the sand. Maybe I'd insist on counseling. Maybe I'd divorce.

You do your friends no favors by concealing the truth and assuming they can't weigh their own options in light of the information.

Let's say this was a guy who told LW he'd been sleeping with her friend's husband. Would you still stay out of it even if you discovered he was living a double life as a gay man? Just leave the wife in the dark because she really should've chosen better...or she should already know he's gay from all the "signs"...or she probably doesn't really "want" to know?

This just happened to an acquaintance of mine with 2 kids. Her husband came out of the closet, confessed he had a lover, and they've now divorced.

She's devastated, and apparently had no idea, and I don't think anyone else did (he was very handsome, and dressed well, but no other "signs" that I've heard),

But, had she known, she never would've had kids with him.

I personally couldn't conceal something like that from a friend either. You have to realize that her life may be on the line. Gay or straight, it's the same, especially if the cheater is being promiscuous, which it sounds like here.

The real world is a good place, Amy!

Lovelysoul, I agree that friends lying to help cover for a cheater is different. If the deceived partner is genuinely seeking the truth, an ethical friend or acquaintance gives it to them. But I still say, just knowing about cheating--with women, men, cats, whatever!--does not obligate someone to share that knowledge with the deceived partner.

I can't speak for your friend's former marriage. But I do believe that leading a double life and assuming a sexual orientation that is not one's own leaves SOME clues, which someone living with their eyes open can see.

Having a cheating, promiscuous or gay spouse does indeed somewhat increase one's risk of contracting diseases, even deadly ones, depending on how much unprotected sex there is. But it is not the responsibility of the people who know about the cheating to protect the cheated-on partner from the risks of life. They chose their partner, they assumed the risks.

And even after my own experience, I believe that some people are better off not being told about a cheating partner. Many couples indeed have "arrangements," spoken or unspoken, and all manner of double lives. Maybe you personally think that's sad, sick, even dangerous, but it could be what they've effectively chosen for themselves, and the closest they'll ever get to a peaceful domestic life. How can you know for sure what's best for them? Would you really want to butt in and possibly wreck lives? Particularly if they already have kids?

I had a list of red flags that could have filled an encyclopedia AND some rightfully concerned friends, but I still stayed a good while in an awful relationship. Would evidence provided by others have sped up my wake-up process? I don't really think so. All the important evidence was already in front of me. I myself had to change to get out of that situation. Maybe the evidence was in front of your friend, too. I am really fortunate that my poor choices didn't carry more serious consequences, and very grateful. Not everyone is as lucky.

"But it is not the responsibility of the people who know about the cheating to protect the cheated-on partner from the risks of life. They chose their partner, they assumed the risks."

I've never said it was a "responsibility". We are all free to choose what we will do for our friends and neighbors - how far we'll go to help someone in a tough spot.

For instance, we're free to turn our backs on the child next door who looks hungry and neglected. After all, we don't really know what the situation is, and it's not our responsibility to find out.

In fact, many people look the other way regarding child abuse - and domestic abuse - for the very same reasons. They don't want to intervene into another family's life. They don't think it's their place. They don't want to take responsibility for the consequences.

Of course, some (say they) MIGHT if they had absolute, undeniable proof - if they actually saw the parent abuse the child, but, barring that, they justify their lack of involvement with the exact same excuse: they don't know for sure what the situation is.

I think most of us know our friends well enough to have an idea whether they have an "arrangement" or wouldn't want to know. Some older people, long-married, may have a look-the-other-way policy, though I think it's much less common than it once was when people felt compelled to stay in unhappy marriages due to religious or family constraints.

Some people are swingers, but the fact this woman used the term "affair" strongly suggests that this isn't some accepted arrangement between the couple.

I guess everyone has to examine what it would take for them to become involved. Not because it's their "responsibility", but precisely because it isn't. Nothing bad is happening to you - no one is lying or pulling the wool over your eyes, or exposing you to diseases - so it's easy to say that you have no vested interest.

You don't. Other than being someone's friend, a person whom they trust. Perhaps their trust in you is misplaced, but they chose you as a friend; they assumed the risks.

Sigh. I wasn't going to continue this, but this remark irked me:

"All I expected was decency and truth."

It is not decent to interfere in other people's marriages. You're still wailing, "But my friends should have told me! If they were good friends, they would have told me!"

No. It was not on your friends to try to see the underlying truth of your marriage and explain it to you. It was on you to figure it out. By trying to pass off that responsibility, you're not being a fair friend to them.

"No. It was not on your friends to try to see the underlying truth of your marriage and explain it to you. It was on you to figure it out. By trying to pass off that responsibility, you're not being a fair friend to them."

You're still trying to absolve yourself from ever taking any action to help a friend in this situation.

I didn't need my friends to "explain my marriage to me". That's what you refuse to get.

Neither did my friend. She just needed her friend to say, "I saw him out on the dance floor with another woman..."

That's not interpreting anything, or actually making the determination. Maybe he's innocent! Maybe it's his cousin!

If your friend ran into your husband out at the grocery store, she'd probably mention that, wouldn't she? So, for a friend to decide to CONCEAL what he/she saw or what he/she heard is actually making the interpretation: He's cheating on her, so I'm not going to tell her.

THAT is interpreting her marriage for her! You're not giving her the chance to figure it out herself when you withold information.

When you call CPS to report child abuse, or the police to report domestic abuse, you don't say you know for sure there's abuse occuring. You don't interpret it for them. All you do is give them the facts - what you witnessed, what you heard.

Of course, you can take the attitude that you have no right to intervene. I said you were free to do that. You can shrug your shoulders and say to yourself, "These people made bad choices. It's their job to figure it out. Not my place to get involved." But I have the right to view that as not being a good citizen, much less a good friend.

I think it extremely telling that THREE times you've tried to draw a correlation between your situation and child abuse. A child doesn't choose abusive parents. You chose your husband. You're not a child, you're a grown woman. This insistance on an analogy to child abuse makes me suspect you would rather identify yourself as the victim whom nobody would assist than take that hard look in the mirror I mentioned earlier.

I believe Amy gave the correct advice to the person who asked for it. You want the LW to do what would have been best for lovelysoul's situation instead of addressing her situation. I think you're dead wrong, and that what you expect of people is unfair, and therefore you're not being a good citizen or good friend. You asked me earlier what I would want a friend to do for me in this situation, and I answered I would want her to do what felt right for her since I would never ask a friend to get in the middle of my marriage. That would not be fair to her.

We're just repeating ourselves now. I'm going to head out to the grocery store and then for a hike in the rain.

I agree with lovelysoul. I once had a boyfriend who was cheating on me. Three other people told me that they saw him with the other woman, complete with times, dates and locations. I was damned glad that they told me so I could corner the rat.

If friends came forward later to say that they knew he was up to no good, I'd be done with them.

The wife deserves to know what is happening so that she can make an informed choice.

I still don't understand why OTHERS must provide evidence of the cheater's deceit in order for the cheated-on partner to make an informed decision. You are the one in the relationship with the person--if you have the uneasy feeling you are being controlled, lied to, and treated like shit, then you probably are! The cheater's behavior is the same, whether or not anyone provides you with corroboration. It's your job to be observant of what is going on in your relationship and honest with yourself, not anyone else's.

That's not to say I would never tell a friend I knew their partner was misbehaving. In some cases, that might be the right judgement call to make, and the friend can certainly be grateful for the help. But in others, it's best to mind your own business and let people live with the choices they have made. There are other ways to be a good friend, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not involving themselves in MY personal affairs. Again, it's different if others are deliberately lying to your face when you ask them about your cheating partner. It would seem then that they are either cowards or more loyal to the cheater than you, and you shouldn't consider them true friends.

Like Lizzie said, the analogy to child abuse is really poor. A child doesn't choose their parents, and often does not how to help themselves. However, we do expect this behavior from adults. The person I was involved with (they don't even deserve to be called "ex") was incredibly emotionally abusive, but I don't think of myself as a victim. I let them in my life, ignored all the warnings, and put up with unbelievable shit until I finally realized I was miserable and could survive without them, and left. THAT was my informed choice.

I mean, was your life really all rosy until you got that good hard evidence that your partner was an ass? Sorry to be callous. But I think all of us who've been in such situations need to take a good hard look at ourselves.

No, of course it's not all rosy, but cheaters don't necessarily treat their partners bad. Many tend to be especially sweet and loving, so they won't suspect. It's genuinely hard to get hard evidence to make a fully informed choice. The cheater will always swear they aren't cheating.

You may quibble with my mention of child abuse, but I also mentioned domestic abuse too. Nobody addresed that because it makes the point that there ARE times when a friend involves themselves in a friend's marriage.

But, if you're going to stay quiet, then later, when your friend does figure it out (which they usually do, just takes longer), don't share what you saw or knew years ago. Trust me, she won't appreciate that you held a piece of the puzzle that you didn't share.

Actually, I've never understood why "friends" do that - say, "0h, funny story, I saw your hubby out with another woman 10 years ago, but I didn't want to tell you! Isn't that a cute little anecdote?" Uh, no.

I don't mean to get personal, lovelysoul, but all of that is predicated upon one major truth in your life: you desperately wanted out of that relationship, if that is the abusive one you described so many times.

So every single person who didn't tell you was robbing you of an opportunity to walk, since mustering the courage yourself seems to have been difficult.

Now, as difficult as it would be for YOU to walk, with a sexually and emotionally abusive guy, how much more so is it for a woman who is actually reasonably happy with her 'cheater'.

If you'll let me get a bit hypothetical about the prior woman I described: she had a popular and charming husband who had a career, a profitable side business, two sons who adored him and she had, at most an inkling of what might be happening.

Now that the infidelity has been revealed, she is working her ass off, fighting about alimony, worried about dying alone, her sons are emotionally damaged, her husband is absent and not so financially well off and is certainly a lot less popular with family and friends. She traded the house she can't afford for a crappy condo, but HEY! She can look at her growing crows feet in the mirror with pride!

Occasionally, Adam and Eve might have reconsidered biting the Apple. And none of them thanked the Serpent.

Look, I saw many cases of reported abuse end up badly, or sadly, but does that mean those who observed it should stay quiet? No. They aren't responsible for the consequences because people have free choice. They get to decide how to proceed, given the information. If your friend is staring all alone into a mirror, looking at her crow's feet, that's her fault. She is no longer staring into the face of a liar, which is a form of mental abuse. What she does with that is up to her.

The same can be said of those rescued from a physical abuser. Maybe their lives take a sad ( or sadder) turn. Does that mean you should've said nothing? We can only speak out against the crime. We can't guarantee a good outcome for anyone. That's up to them.

If the cheated on spouse is not ready or willing to see the truth of their spouse's infidelity, they won't see it. They won't thank their friends for helpfully pointing it out.

When I was about 20 or so, my (male) best friend got engaged. The fiance was a lying,two-faced beeyotch user. But my friend never saw that side of her. Because she was careful to not show him that side of her. Two of his best (male ) friends tried to tell him about her and got rebuffed and cut off. In the "you are dead to me" fashion. I wanted to tell him, too. Instead I just told him "I hope you will be very happy together."

Eventually, he saw through her and got out of the relationship. It took several years before he got untangled completely.

I am still friends with him 20+ years later.

In some instances the old adage holds very true. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Yes, and I've had many cases where I've reported donestic abuse where the victim went back to the abuser. In fact, MOST cases have been that way, and I've been blocked from their lives. But I know I did the right thing, whether they acknowledge it or not. If they choose to stay in that bad situation, that falls to them. I may miss the relationship, but that comes secondary. Most of the time - given some time- they'll express gratitude.

I just received a letter from a woman I'd called police for when she was being abused. She actually lied once the cops arrived, to cover for him, and she left with him.

It's been a year or so, but she's in college now and wrote to thank me for helping open her eyes.

But even if I'd never gotten her letter, I knew I did the right thing. And so did your friends trying to prevent a disastrous marriage.

Lovelysoul, I do believe in intervening when there is physical abuse by partners. If someone is being physically hurt on a regular basis and is unable to protect themselves, then they have serious problems and others have a duty to help. Much like you would help a child.

Cheating can't be placed in the same category, though. Not all cheating can be considered abusive, and the chances of a cheated-on partner contracting a serious disease pale in comparison to those of a battered partner getting killed. Absolutely call the cops, that young woman and the others are fortunate that you did. But cheating and even emotional abuse can be much subtler problems with less clear-cut solutions.

Like the situation flydye describes: yeah, they're no longer living a lie, but it sounds like the whole family's lives got wrecked nonetheless. Obviously I don't know the particulars... I wonder, was it really the well-meaning informer's place to set off the bomb?

"Maybe their lives take a sad ( or sadder) turn. Does that mean you should've said nothing? We can only speak out against the crime. We can't guarantee a good outcome for anyone. That's up to them."

Wow. Repeating an unsubtantiated rumor of infidelity is equivalent in your mind to reporting a crime. Unbelievable. Nowhere did the letter writer mention child abuse or domestic abuse, so why do you keep dragging them into this? To bolster your belief that it doesn't matter whose life is smashed to smithereens as long as you get to charge around dispensing the "truth" as you see it and simultaneously pat yourself on the back for your "good citizenship". Gag.

"Like the situation flydye describes: yeah, they're no longer living a lie, but it sounds like the whole family's lives got wrecked nonetheless. Obviously I don't know the particulars...I wonder, was it really the well-meaning informer's place to set off the bomb?"

After learning the truth, the wife must've decided to divorce, and yes, divorce, in those circumstances is hard, chaotic, and often feels like your world has been blown to smithereens. But SHE made the choice, not the informer.

And, eventually, like me and everyone else, she'll probably recover and go on to a better life - maybe even with someone who is loyal and loves her. As I have. How come no one ever considers the positive outcomes?

I don't credit any informer with how my life has turned out. I did that for myself. But I was grateful to those who showed me enough respect to give me the information I needed to make a fully informed choice.

I certainly wish some people had told me what they saw (or experienced) sooner, so that I could've pieced it together earlier.

It may seem odd, but I still don't have hard proof of his cheating. To this day, he denies that he ever did anything physical. He was a natural flirt. He flirted with old ladies, old men, bartenders, and store clerks. So, it was always "innocent". If I confronted him with a gut instinct that more was happening, he'd say it was just him being flirtatious, which was his "nature".

Funny story - a couple of years after I left, I was on a first date with guy, who, upon learning who my ex was, relayed a story that he'd been on a date with a woman app 10 years prior, and my ex came over, started rubbing her back and whispering in her ear. After she left, the guy asked about that, and she said, "Oh, he's a friend of mine, and he wants to take me home. He was whipsering all the things he wants to do to me if I let him." (I was out of town visiting family)

The guy said, "Hey, if you want to go with him, go ahead." And she replied, "No, he's married, and I know his wife...she's sweet. I'd never do that to her."

Man, I wish she'd told me that. It was midway through my marriage, and I was in my late 20s, early 30s. Just had one child with him, not two.

But she was just an aquaintance, so I'm not upset about it, but that would've been hard evidence that he was doing more than "flirting." It would've been so helpful to me at the time.

I will say that if this guy wasn't potentially a serial cheater, I'd feel differently. If the woman had told LW that she'd had an affair with him, but he ended it and went back to his wife, I wouldn't advise telling. Probably the husband regrets his behavior and has devoted himself to his marriage.

But that's not the information she shared. She said he's been with multiple women over the past 5 years. That isn't someone who just had one night stand or a brief fling. He is repeatedly lying to his wife, and that is a form of mental abuse.

@not-so-lovelysoul

Nothing pleases do-good-informers than seeing others worse off than them. Spreading rumors is a female recreational pleasure, not a duty of any sort. And it is a pleasure more immoral than any affair between consenting adults. I find it revolting the persistent equating of child abuse and domestic abuse with having an affair. Just revolting.

Well, based on all your usually female-denigrating comments, Mortal, I would expect so. Any information that would give a woman the fully informed choice to dump someone who was mistreating her (by lying repeatedly to her face), would not be approved by your Borat-style, "women should shut up and be subjegated" view of marriage.

I was just out to lunch with the friend who left her husband due to the phone call she received about his dancing with another woman. I reminded her that, when we first met, she had said she wouldn't want to know, yet when someone told her, she became like a professional PI - tracking down every lie, every detail, and eventually convicting him of cheating.

She said, yes, she had thought she would be one who would want to live in denial, but realizing the depth of the lies, and how personally insulting and abusive of her trust his behavior was, she is so glad that her friend stepped up to tell her what she saw...and she would do the same for any other person she considered a friend.

No one wants to live with a liar. Ask any young girl - or any young woman - that's not the idea of the kind of mate we want and deserve.

And, eventually, like me and everyone else, she'll probably recover and go on to a better life - maybe even with someone who is loyal and loves her. As I have. How come no one ever considers the positive outcomes?

Facts not always in evidence.

As a divorce attorney friend told me: there are no winners in divorce. There are those who lose more and those who lose less.

Now, if I was a hot female with an engaging personality and a very realistic assessment of human nature with a generous spirit, YES, it's possible my life after divorce might turn our quite well.

Average results may vary.

Just to be clear. I am not attacking you. I prefer to point out that people personally prioritize the price of pride.

Yes, but it might not lead to divorce. As my friend and I were discussing, many couples would get into therapy and deal honestly with the issues that lead to the infidelity. After the revelation, she and her ex had months of therapy. The infidelity was just one of the many problems in their marriage. The revelation merely spurred them to confront their issues. Divorce was not so much the result of that one revelation, but their many incompatibilities.

It's funny how everyone has these elaborate, terrible scenarios, so they can justify not taking the simplest action of having an honest conversation with someone they supposedly care about.

Maybe because I've had to deal with so many domestic situations as a landlord, I'm able to pare it down to the basics. If I had to worry each time I called in a case of domestic abuse that the couple would divorce...their young kids would probably drop out of school...end up on drugs...on the street...their pets would be sent to the pound...and their world blown to smithereens...well, I'd never be able to pick up the phone or confront the issue.

But I don't hold myself responsible for the consequences. After all, I'm not the one doing the abusing or the cheating. Someone in that relationship made the choice to act in an inappropriate manner - not me. All I'm doing is telling the truth.

"Now, if I was a hot female with an engaging personality and a very realistic assessment of human nature with a generous spirit, YES, it's possible my life after divorce might turn our quite well."

I suppose you meant that as a dig at me, but it's really an insult to the many people who have come out better after divorce.

And, as I said, telling someone the truth wouldn't be what causes the divorce. The action of the person cheating is what would cause the divorce...if one even occured.

Today, my friend relayed a story to me that she had a very close friend who was in a really controlling relationship. All her friends saw it. Then, she ran into a woman (much like the LW) who told her she was having an affair with the friend's husband.

The group of friends discussed it, and finally one said, "I'm going to tell her if you don't", so my friend did the deed.

The news was not received well, and ultimately the controlling husband managed to somehow make my friend out to to be the villian, rather than himself. The wife stayed with her cheating, controlling husband, and broke up with my friend.

So, I asked her, "Do you regret telling her? And she said she really missed her friend, but no. It was still the right thing to do.

We women really want to be liked, but my point is that there are sometimes things that are much more important than being liked. Knowing your friend is being serially cheated on is one of those things.

You took it exactly the wrong way. I am saying that you seem to be a very good catch and that ordinary people might not find their feet as well.

I don't know a lot of people who have come out 'better' when you remove horribly emotionally and physically abusive spouses. But honestly, how many of them are there?

Do you mean how many horribly abusive spouses or how many people who've come out better?

I know several people who have more peaceful, content lives than when they were in abusive relationships. They haven't all found new love or remarried, but that is often by choice. And, no matter what challenges they currently have, I don't know any who would say they wish they were back in those relationships.

Whatever ultimately happens, it's not the fault of the messenger. If the cheater wasn't cheating or the abuser wasn't abusing, there'd be no need for a messenger.

I wish someone would have told me sooner! Someone did in the end. I did my own investigation and kicked the ***** out the next day! Years later other so called friends came forward and said they knew of other affairs. I "ex"ed them also!